Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 I like these conversations and find them very useful and greatly respect these opinions. I have had great success partnering via independent contracts with physicians on my own behalf and that of my members. We have completed over 80 such transactions. In most every case a therapist was approached by a physician wanting to employ them. After the physician recovered from the " ABSOLUTELY NOT " response, they embraced the idea that they could have these great services provided within the therapists existing clinics thus freeing up space and avoiding the set up costs etc. Your clinic remains your clinic; you've just added a valuable contract no different than Blue Cross, Aetna, etc. Our studies indicated that in house therapy for docs produces just above or below a 10% return, with the better ones being run without therapists. The greatest blessing of this year is the APTA/CMS agreement which will eliminate these farce practices. ly I think if all therapists refuse to ever be employees (I would never allow that to happen), then contracts and a great deal of respect can be gained. Our standard to begin talks is 70% for the therapist/clinic and a risk free 30% for the physician. Instead of the physician having the hassles and hoping for a 10% return, he/she has a guaranteed return of 30% and your clinic remains yours. I know what you're thinking: 1) this isn't legal. It is. I'm not a therapist but a business guy with lots of experience and the best lawyers money can by. In fact, ALL of our major contracts put the physician's attorneys with ours and each one has agreed; 2) I can't make it at 70%! Wrong! If you are operating at below 90% of your capacity these contracts fill the gap quite nicely. Our first small physician contract produced cash to us of $29,000 during our first quarter ramp up with added expenses of $300.18. Your fixed expenses are already paid for so these revenues go to the bottom line. The profit margin on adding additional staff can make a lot of sense once that threshold is met. They have a problem and you are the solution. It's that or they do it the wrong way without you. We currently have eight contracts in place using multiple facilities and multiple physicians per facility producing around 60-70 new patients per week that we weren't seeing previously. This activity leads to other new opportunities. For example, a large physician group is forming a rehab hospital and wants to contract home health and outpatient to us. It won't open until August but we're seeing their patients as standard referrals now. For more information please check out www.mdptpartners.com<http://www.mdptpartners.com/>. It's an informational website with nothing to buy. In the words of one member/friend, " last year I thought you were Satan and now this year you've literally saved my practice of 23 years. You truly do everything in my power to assist the therapist " . Take care. Doug Doug Sparks Advanced Physical Therapy Concepts / APTC www.aptc.biz<http://www.aptc.biz/> doug@... Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 I like these conversations and find them very useful and greatly respect these opinions. I have had great success partnering via independent contracts with physicians on my own behalf and that of my members. We have completed over 80 such transactions. In most every case a therapist was approached by a physician wanting to employ them. After the physician recovered from the " ABSOLUTELY NOT " response, they embraced the idea that they could have these great services provided within the therapists existing clinics thus freeing up space and avoiding the set up costs etc. Your clinic remains your clinic; you've just added a valuable contract no different than Blue Cross, Aetna, etc. Our studies indicated that in house therapy for docs produces just above or below a 10% return, with the better ones being run without therapists. The greatest blessing of this year is the APTA/CMS agreement which will eliminate these farce practices. ly I think if all therapists refuse to ever be employees (I would never allow that to happen), then contracts and a great deal of respect can be gained. Our standard to begin talks is 70% for the therapist/clinic and a risk free 30% for the physician. Instead of the physician having the hassles and hoping for a 10% return, he/she has a guaranteed return of 30% and your clinic remains yours. I know what you're thinking: 1) this isn't legal. It is. I'm not a therapist but a business guy with lots of experience and the best lawyers money can by. In fact, ALL of our major contracts put the physician's attorneys with ours and each one has agreed; 2) I can't make it at 70%! Wrong! If you are operating at below 90% of your capacity these contracts fill the gap quite nicely. Our first small physician contract produced cash to us of $29,000 during our first quarter ramp up with added expenses of $300.18. Your fixed expenses are already paid for so these revenues go to the bottom line. The profit margin on adding additional staff can make a lot of sense once that threshold is met. They have a problem and you are the solution. It's that or they do it the wrong way without you. We currently have eight contracts in place using multiple facilities and multiple physicians per facility producing around 60-70 new patients per week that we weren't seeing previously. This activity leads to other new opportunities. For example, a large physician group is forming a rehab hospital and wants to contract home health and outpatient to us. It won't open until August but we're seeing their patients as standard referrals now. For more information please check out www.mdptpartners.com<http://www.mdptpartners.com/>. It's an informational website with nothing to buy. In the words of one member/friend, " last year I thought you were Satan and now this year you've literally saved my practice of 23 years. You truly do everything in my power to assist the therapist " . Take care. Doug Doug Sparks Advanced Physical Therapy Concepts / APTC www.aptc.biz<http://www.aptc.biz/> doug@... Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 Doug: Perhaps you could answer just one question for me; what service is the physician providing, in the arrangement that you describe, to justify receiving " a risk free 30% " of the fee for my services? The physician is certainly free to bill for services rendered, just as we are. I am wondering however, what service are they providing in your scenario? Ken Mailly, PT Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC Tel. 973 692-0033 Fax 973 633-9557 68 Seneca Trail Wayne, NJ, 07470 www.NJPTAid.biz Bridging the Gap! Re: where are we going? I like these conversations and find them very useful and greatly respect these opinions. I have had great success partnering via independent contracts with physicians on my own behalf and that of my members. We have completed over 80 such transactions. In most every case a therapist was approached by a physician wanting to employ them. After the physician recovered from the " ABSOLUTELY NOT " response, they embraced the idea that they could have these great services provided within the therapists existing clinics thus freeing up space and avoiding the set up costs etc. Your clinic remains your clinic; you've just added a valuable contract no different than Blue Cross, Aetna, etc. Our studies indicated that in house therapy for docs produces just above or below a 10% return, with the better ones being run without therapists. The greatest blessing of this year is the APTA/CMS agreement which will eliminate these farce practices. ly I think if all therapists refuse to ever be employees (I would never allow that to happen), then contracts and a great deal of respect can be gained. Our standard to begin talks is 70% for the therapist/clinic and a risk free 30% for the physician. Instead of the physician having the hassles and hoping for a 10% return, he/she has a guaranteed return of 30% and your clinic remains yours. I know what you're thinking: 1) this isn't legal. It is. I'm not a therapist but a business guy with lots of experience and the best lawyers money can by. In fact, ALL of our major contracts put the physician's attorneys with ours and each one has agreed; 2) I can't make it at 70%! Wrong! If you are operating at below 90% of your capacity these contracts fill the gap quite nicely. Our first small physician contract produced cash to us of $29,000 during our first quarter ramp up with added expenses of $300.18. Your fixed expenses are already paid for so these revenues go to the bottom line. The profit margin on adding additional staff can make a lot of sense once that threshold is met. They have a problem and you are the solution. It's that or they do it the wrong way without you. We currently have eight contracts in place using multiple facilities and multiple physicians per facility producing around 60-70 new patients per week that we weren't seeing previously. This activity leads to other new opportunities. For example, a large physician group is forming a rehab hospital and wants to contract home health and outpatient to us. It won't open until August but we're seeing their patients as standard referrals now. For more information please check out www.mdptpartners.com<http://www.mdptpartners.com/>. It's an informational website with nothing to buy. In the words of one member/friend, " last year I thought you were Satan and now this year you've literally saved my practice of 23 years. You truly do everything in my power to assist the therapist " . Take care. Doug Doug Sparks Advanced Physical Therapy Concepts / APTC www.aptc.biz<http://www.aptc.biz/> doug@... Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 Doug: Perhaps you could answer just one question for me; what service is the physician providing, in the arrangement that you describe, to justify receiving " a risk free 30% " of the fee for my services? The physician is certainly free to bill for services rendered, just as we are. I am wondering however, what service are they providing in your scenario? Ken Mailly, PT Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC Tel. 973 692-0033 Fax 973 633-9557 68 Seneca Trail Wayne, NJ, 07470 www.NJPTAid.biz Bridging the Gap! Re: where are we going? I like these conversations and find them very useful and greatly respect these opinions. I have had great success partnering via independent contracts with physicians on my own behalf and that of my members. We have completed over 80 such transactions. In most every case a therapist was approached by a physician wanting to employ them. After the physician recovered from the " ABSOLUTELY NOT " response, they embraced the idea that they could have these great services provided within the therapists existing clinics thus freeing up space and avoiding the set up costs etc. Your clinic remains your clinic; you've just added a valuable contract no different than Blue Cross, Aetna, etc. Our studies indicated that in house therapy for docs produces just above or below a 10% return, with the better ones being run without therapists. The greatest blessing of this year is the APTA/CMS agreement which will eliminate these farce practices. ly I think if all therapists refuse to ever be employees (I would never allow that to happen), then contracts and a great deal of respect can be gained. Our standard to begin talks is 70% for the therapist/clinic and a risk free 30% for the physician. Instead of the physician having the hassles and hoping for a 10% return, he/she has a guaranteed return of 30% and your clinic remains yours. I know what you're thinking: 1) this isn't legal. It is. I'm not a therapist but a business guy with lots of experience and the best lawyers money can by. In fact, ALL of our major contracts put the physician's attorneys with ours and each one has agreed; 2) I can't make it at 70%! Wrong! If you are operating at below 90% of your capacity these contracts fill the gap quite nicely. Our first small physician contract produced cash to us of $29,000 during our first quarter ramp up with added expenses of $300.18. Your fixed expenses are already paid for so these revenues go to the bottom line. The profit margin on adding additional staff can make a lot of sense once that threshold is met. They have a problem and you are the solution. It's that or they do it the wrong way without you. We currently have eight contracts in place using multiple facilities and multiple physicians per facility producing around 60-70 new patients per week that we weren't seeing previously. This activity leads to other new opportunities. For example, a large physician group is forming a rehab hospital and wants to contract home health and outpatient to us. It won't open until August but we're seeing their patients as standard referrals now. For more information please check out www.mdptpartners.com<http://www.mdptpartners.com/>. It's an informational website with nothing to buy. In the words of one member/friend, " last year I thought you were Satan and now this year you've literally saved my practice of 23 years. You truly do everything in my power to assist the therapist " . Take care. Doug Doug Sparks Advanced Physical Therapy Concepts / APTC www.aptc.biz<http://www.aptc.biz/> doug@... Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 Hi Ken and happy holidays. As 100% of the collections belong to the physician, the 70% they pay to the therapist/therapy company is the contracted expense of service. Discount for volume and exclusivity (where relevant) is another common business description. It's based on, and not owed until collection to account for denials or nonpayment/adjustments for other reasons beyond their immediate control. The physicians have a choice to provide the space, staff, equipment, etc., or contract to have those services provided. I've seen other percentages based on depth of services offered such as billing and inclusion of other physicians into a new " group " . Continuity of care and communication makes the process require teamwork which results in better service. Once again, the therapist can get in the path of progress, or not, as the physicians will continue to exclude them if options aren't presented. People continue to rightfully complain about these arrangements that they see going on around them, and wondering how it can happen and what they can do. Though I have heard some very good suggestions that I too will implement, this is the " mystery " that's causing the frustration. The real downside of not participating is being shut out from any future referrals. I've had several therapists tell me that 1-3 of their main referring physicians are bringing therapy inside and that it will likely put them out of business. That scares them and me. Thanks for your input and have a great evening. Doug Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/<http://www.inhomerehab.com<http:\ //www.inhomerehab.com/>>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 Hi Ken and happy holidays. As 100% of the collections belong to the physician, the 70% they pay to the therapist/therapy company is the contracted expense of service. Discount for volume and exclusivity (where relevant) is another common business description. It's based on, and not owed until collection to account for denials or nonpayment/adjustments for other reasons beyond their immediate control. The physicians have a choice to provide the space, staff, equipment, etc., or contract to have those services provided. I've seen other percentages based on depth of services offered such as billing and inclusion of other physicians into a new " group " . Continuity of care and communication makes the process require teamwork which results in better service. Once again, the therapist can get in the path of progress, or not, as the physicians will continue to exclude them if options aren't presented. People continue to rightfully complain about these arrangements that they see going on around them, and wondering how it can happen and what they can do. Though I have heard some very good suggestions that I too will implement, this is the " mystery " that's causing the frustration. The real downside of not participating is being shut out from any future referrals. I've had several therapists tell me that 1-3 of their main referring physicians are bringing therapy inside and that it will likely put them out of business. That scares them and me. Thanks for your input and have a great evening. Doug Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/<http://www.inhomerehab.com<http:\ //www.inhomerehab.com/>>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 Hi Ken and happy holidays. As 100% of the collections belong to the physician, the 70% they pay to the therapist/therapy company is the contracted expense of service. Discount for volume and exclusivity (where relevant) is another common business description. It's based on, and not owed until collection to account for denials or nonpayment/adjustments for other reasons beyond their immediate control. The physicians have a choice to provide the space, staff, equipment, etc., or contract to have those services provided. I've seen other percentages based on depth of services offered such as billing and inclusion of other physicians into a new " group " . Continuity of care and communication makes the process require teamwork which results in better service. Once again, the therapist can get in the path of progress, or not, as the physicians will continue to exclude them if options aren't presented. People continue to rightfully complain about these arrangements that they see going on around them, and wondering how it can happen and what they can do. Though I have heard some very good suggestions that I too will implement, this is the " mystery " that's causing the frustration. The real downside of not participating is being shut out from any future referrals. I've had several therapists tell me that 1-3 of their main referring physicians are bringing therapy inside and that it will likely put them out of business. That scares them and me. Thanks for your input and have a great evening. Doug Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/<http://www.inhomerehab.com<http:\ //www.inhomerehab.com/>>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 I see this same marketing conversation every few months. One thing I do like, it certainly generates some interesting comments about " under & over the table " arrangements. Steve Passmore PT, MS Re: where are we going? > > > > > Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are > CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area > Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the > doctors we > prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with > some of those > same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the > employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It > is working > quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything > and > staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat > the > therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is > that > the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find > that they > are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, > turnover, > billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They > are > now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we > will > consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the > bills, do > not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist > because > the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a > concern. > We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers > we > want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years > in the > Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and > this > not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. > > Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS > Occupational Therapist > Certified Vocational Evaluator > Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist > Chief Executive Officer > WORK & REHAB > 4546 South 14th > Abilene, Texas 79605 > -phone > -fax > email:bubklo@... > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 I see this same marketing conversation every few months. One thing I do like, it certainly generates some interesting comments about " under & over the table " arrangements. Steve Passmore PT, MS Re: where are we going? > > > > > Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are > CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area > Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the > doctors we > prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with > some of those > same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the > employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It > is working > quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything > and > staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat > the > therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is > that > the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find > that they > are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, > turnover, > billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They > are > now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we > will > consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the > bills, do > not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist > because > the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a > concern. > We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers > we > want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years > in the > Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and > this > not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. > > Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS > Occupational Therapist > Certified Vocational Evaluator > Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist > Chief Executive Officer > WORK & REHAB > 4546 South 14th > Abilene, Texas 79605 > -phone > -fax > email:bubklo@... > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 I see this same marketing conversation every few months. One thing I do like, it certainly generates some interesting comments about " under & over the table " arrangements. Steve Passmore PT, MS Re: where are we going? > > > > > Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are > CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area > Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the > doctors we > prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with > some of those > same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the > employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It > is working > quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything > and > staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat > the > therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is > that > the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find > that they > are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, > turnover, > billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They > are > now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we > will > consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the > bills, do > not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist > because > the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a > concern. > We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers > we > want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years > in the > Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and > this > not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. > > Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS > Occupational Therapist > Certified Vocational Evaluator > Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist > Chief Executive Officer > WORK & REHAB > 4546 South 14th > Abilene, Texas 79605 > -phone > -fax > email:bubklo@... > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Sure sounds like referral for profit to me. Unethical and illegal in my world Ron Barbato P.T. Corporate Director , Rehabilitation Ephraim McDowell Health Voice (859 )239-1515 Fax (859 )936-7249 rbarbato@... " PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL: This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, then please do not read it and be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately advise me, by reply e-mail, and delete this message and any attachments without retaining a copy in any form. Thank you. " Re: where are we going? I like these conversations and find them very useful and greatly respect these opinions. I have had great success partnering via independent contracts with physicians on my own behalf and that of my members. We have completed over 80 such transactions. In most every case a therapist was approached by a physician wanting to employ them. After the physician recovered from the " ABSOLUTELY NOT " response, they embraced the idea that they could have these great services provided within the therapists existing clinics thus freeing up space and avoiding the set up costs etc. Your clinic remains your clinic; you've just added a valuable contract no different than Blue Cross, Aetna, etc. Our studies indicated that in house therapy for docs produces just above or below a 10% return, with the better ones being run without therapists. The greatest blessing of this year is the APTA/CMS agreement which will eliminate these farce practices. ly I think if all therapists refuse to ever be employees (I would never allow that to happen), then contracts and a great deal of respect can be gained. Our standard to begin talks is 70% for the therapist/clinic and a risk free 30% for the physician. Instead of the physician having the hassles and hoping for a 10% return, he/she has a guaranteed return of 30% and your clinic remains yours. I know what you're thinking: 1) this isn't legal. It is. I'm not a therapist but a business guy with lots of experience and the best lawyers money can by. In fact, ALL of our major contracts put the physician's attorneys with ours and each one has agreed; 2) I can't make it at 70%! Wrong! If you are operating at below 90% of your capacity these contracts fill the gap quite nicely. Our first small physician contract produced cash to us of $29,000 during our first quarter ramp up with added expenses of $300.18. Your fixed expenses are already paid for so these revenues go to the bottom line. The profit margin on adding additional staff can make a lot of sense once that threshold is met. They have a problem and you are the solution. It's that or they do it the wrong way without you. We currently have eight contracts in place using multiple facilities and multiple physicians per facility producing around 60-70 new patients per week that we weren't seeing previously. This activity leads to other new opportunities. For example, a large physician group is forming a rehab hospital and wants to contract home health and outpatient to us. It won't open until August but we're seeing their patients as standard referrals now. For more information please check out www.mdptpartners.com<http://www.mdptpartners.com/>. It's an informational website with nothing to buy. In the words of one member/friend, " last year I thought you were Satan and now this year you've literally saved my practice of 23 years. You truly do everything in my power to assist the therapist " . Take care. Doug Doug Sparks Advanced Physical Therapy Concepts / APTC www.aptc.biz<http://www.aptc.biz/> doug@... Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Sure sounds like referral for profit to me. Unethical and illegal in my world Ron Barbato P.T. Corporate Director , Rehabilitation Ephraim McDowell Health Voice (859 )239-1515 Fax (859 )936-7249 rbarbato@... " PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL: This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, then please do not read it and be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately advise me, by reply e-mail, and delete this message and any attachments without retaining a copy in any form. Thank you. " Re: where are we going? I like these conversations and find them very useful and greatly respect these opinions. I have had great success partnering via independent contracts with physicians on my own behalf and that of my members. We have completed over 80 such transactions. In most every case a therapist was approached by a physician wanting to employ them. After the physician recovered from the " ABSOLUTELY NOT " response, they embraced the idea that they could have these great services provided within the therapists existing clinics thus freeing up space and avoiding the set up costs etc. Your clinic remains your clinic; you've just added a valuable contract no different than Blue Cross, Aetna, etc. Our studies indicated that in house therapy for docs produces just above or below a 10% return, with the better ones being run without therapists. The greatest blessing of this year is the APTA/CMS agreement which will eliminate these farce practices. ly I think if all therapists refuse to ever be employees (I would never allow that to happen), then contracts and a great deal of respect can be gained. Our standard to begin talks is 70% for the therapist/clinic and a risk free 30% for the physician. Instead of the physician having the hassles and hoping for a 10% return, he/she has a guaranteed return of 30% and your clinic remains yours. I know what you're thinking: 1) this isn't legal. It is. I'm not a therapist but a business guy with lots of experience and the best lawyers money can by. In fact, ALL of our major contracts put the physician's attorneys with ours and each one has agreed; 2) I can't make it at 70%! Wrong! If you are operating at below 90% of your capacity these contracts fill the gap quite nicely. Our first small physician contract produced cash to us of $29,000 during our first quarter ramp up with added expenses of $300.18. Your fixed expenses are already paid for so these revenues go to the bottom line. The profit margin on adding additional staff can make a lot of sense once that threshold is met. They have a problem and you are the solution. It's that or they do it the wrong way without you. We currently have eight contracts in place using multiple facilities and multiple physicians per facility producing around 60-70 new patients per week that we weren't seeing previously. This activity leads to other new opportunities. For example, a large physician group is forming a rehab hospital and wants to contract home health and outpatient to us. It won't open until August but we're seeing their patients as standard referrals now. For more information please check out www.mdptpartners.com<http://www.mdptpartners.com/>. It's an informational website with nothing to buy. In the words of one member/friend, " last year I thought you were Satan and now this year you've literally saved my practice of 23 years. You truly do everything in my power to assist the therapist " . Take care. Doug Doug Sparks Advanced Physical Therapy Concepts / APTC www.aptc.biz<http://www.aptc.biz/> doug@... Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 The oft heard pronouncement that one thing or another is legal because " my lawyer(s) said it was " needs some serious scrutiny. Lawyers are not, as many would have us believe, the ultimate arbiters of legality. If it were so you would never see two lawyers in a courtroom arguing opposite sides of a case. When such questions arise, usually one's ethics lobe takes over and gives clear enough direction. If not, the self-preservation instinct should warn against skirting the edges. Driving on the the yellow line invites disaster (often involving someone doing the same thing in the opposite direction!). Dave Milano, Director of Rehab Services Laurel Health System 32-36 Central Ave. Wellsboro, PA 16901 dmilano@... Re: where are we going? Hi Ken and happy holidays. As 100% of the collections belong to the physician, the 70% they pay to the therapist/therapy company is the contracted expense of service. Discount for volume and exclusivity (where relevant) is another common business description. It's based on, and not owed until collection to account for denials or nonpayment/adjustments for other reasons beyond their immediate control. The physicians have a choice to provide the space, staff, equipment, etc., or contract to have those services provided. I've seen other percentages based on depth of services offered such as billing and inclusion of other physicians into a new " group " . Continuity of care and communication makes the process require teamwork which results in better service. Once again, the therapist can get in the path of progress, or not, as the physicians will continue to exclude them if options aren't presented. People continue to rightfully complain about these arrangements that they see going on around them, and wondering how it can happen and what they can do. Though I have heard some very good suggestions that I too will implement, this is the " mystery " that's causing the frustration. The real downside of not participating is being shut out from any future referrals. I've had several therapists tell me that 1-3 of their main referring physicians are bringing therapy inside and that it will likely put them out of business. That scares them and me. Thanks for your input and have a great evening. Doug Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/<http://www.inhomerehab.com<h ttp://www.inhomerehab.com/>>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 The problem with what you are doing is not that the patient care is good oro whether or not the PTs are happy with it...from the prospective of making PT an autonomous, direct access profession, you are hurting that cause. PTs in the days of yor made a grave mistake by not protecting their terms and practices and people like you are now able to take advantage of that. Connolly, PT Co-Owner PT Plus of Oak Creek Re: where are we going? > > > > > In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which > is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the > ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to > understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous > practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to > gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the > wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our > profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it > will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do > not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and > the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we > deserve. > > I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the > profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move > forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to > and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other > layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will > continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might > be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that > someday it will happen. > > Respectfully, > > Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC > Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness > 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle > Suite D > Topeka, KS 66618 > (W) > (F) > Ric@... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 I agree. We must all stick together. Get to your representatives and inform them. Those kinds of situations are exactly why we get our collective butts kicked by huge chains, hospital systems and POPTS. Connolly, PT Co-Owner PT Plus of Oak Creek Re: where are we going? > > > In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which > is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the > ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to > understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous > practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to > gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the > wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our > profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it > will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do > not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and > the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we > deserve. > > I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the > profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move > forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to > and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other > layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will > continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might > be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that > someday it will happen. > > Respectfully, > > Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC > Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness > 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle > Suite D > Topeka, KS 66618 > (W) > (F) > Ric@... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 I see this as an ethical-legal thing. I would suggest that it is EASIER for a PT owned practice to cheat the rules and impose unethical behaviors on the business because they are insiders to the process. As a business owner, I am blessed to provide a place where PT's can worry about patient care and not the concerns of running the business, which has become so consuming that it's all I do all day, from marketing, to expansion, to coordination of clinics and departments. The staff we have seems so happy to work in a clinic that is so low stress for them in terms of many of the PT owned places that pushed productivity harder and forced modalities on everyone, etc... To say that I am hurting the cause of PT's to become an autonomous, direct access profession is ridiculous to me. I am all for giving the PT's the credit and respect they deserve. I don't look at it as emotionally as you guys, but I for sure see the logic and merits of it. We can all be advocates for the profession regardless of our backgrounds. Judge me on my ethics and not my credentials-or lack thereof. There will always be the Scrushys out there, he just happened to be a guy who grew his company into a monster and then got got caught cheating the system. I'll bet you for every non-PT owned company that is indicted for unethical behavior there are 10 that are PT owned that get indicted. So what. It is irrelevant really. The bottom line is that people from both sides can be unethical or ethical, follow the rules or break them. As well, we can all work together to advance the profession and make it more well respected, but to fight the battle against people who aren't PT's and to say they shouldn't own clinics...sounds like you are taking your eyes off of the real agenda to fight a battle on the front of your own egos to me. I may be way off base, but I'm feeling attacked here from a guy who knows nothing about me and is basing everything about my company on the initials after my name?? Sac Spine & PT Re: where are we going? > > > > > In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which > is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the > ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to > understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous > practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to > gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the > wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our > profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it > will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do > not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and > the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we > deserve. > > I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the > profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move > forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to > and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other > layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will > continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might > be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that > someday it will happen. > > Respectfully, > > Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC > Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness > 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle > Suite D > Topeka, KS 66618 > (W) > (F) > Ric@...<mailto:Ric@...<mailto:Ric@...<\ mailto:Ric@...>> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 I see this as an ethical-legal thing. I would suggest that it is EASIER for a PT owned practice to cheat the rules and impose unethical behaviors on the business because they are insiders to the process. As a business owner, I am blessed to provide a place where PT's can worry about patient care and not the concerns of running the business, which has become so consuming that it's all I do all day, from marketing, to expansion, to coordination of clinics and departments. The staff we have seems so happy to work in a clinic that is so low stress for them in terms of many of the PT owned places that pushed productivity harder and forced modalities on everyone, etc... To say that I am hurting the cause of PT's to become an autonomous, direct access profession is ridiculous to me. I am all for giving the PT's the credit and respect they deserve. I don't look at it as emotionally as you guys, but I for sure see the logic and merits of it. We can all be advocates for the profession regardless of our backgrounds. Judge me on my ethics and not my credentials-or lack thereof. There will always be the Scrushys out there, he just happened to be a guy who grew his company into a monster and then got got caught cheating the system. I'll bet you for every non-PT owned company that is indicted for unethical behavior there are 10 that are PT owned that get indicted. So what. It is irrelevant really. The bottom line is that people from both sides can be unethical or ethical, follow the rules or break them. As well, we can all work together to advance the profession and make it more well respected, but to fight the battle against people who aren't PT's and to say they shouldn't own clinics...sounds like you are taking your eyes off of the real agenda to fight a battle on the front of your own egos to me. I may be way off base, but I'm feeling attacked here from a guy who knows nothing about me and is basing everything about my company on the initials after my name?? Sac Spine & PT Re: where are we going? > > > > > In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which > is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the > ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to > understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous > practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to > gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the > wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our > profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it > will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do > not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and > the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we > deserve. > > I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the > profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move > forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to > and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other > layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will > continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might > be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that > someday it will happen. > > Respectfully, > > Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC > Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness > 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle > Suite D > Topeka, KS 66618 > (W) > (F) > Ric@...<mailto:Ric@...<mailto:Ric@...<\ mailto:Ric@...>> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 , You are missing the point. I am not talking about ethics. I am talking about PTs in autonomous practice and how non-PT owners are hurting the move toward that. Not attacking you...attacking the concept. Did not mean to offend. As a non-PT how could you or would you understand? I am glad your staff is happy and I am glad you do not pressure them into performance goals that hurt morale, ethics, and customer service. You are an exception to the rule. My point is that non-PT ownership of a future autonomous profession will set it back. Re: where are we going? > > > > > > > > > > In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " > which > > is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not > have the > > ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for > him to > > understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and > autonomous > > practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in > to > > gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it > the > > wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are > doing our > > profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for > it, it > > will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I > personally do > > not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA > and > > the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that > we > > deserve. > > > > I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the > > profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and > move > > forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are > referring to > > and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any > other > > layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I > will > > continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the > country. Might > > be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that > > someday it will happen. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC > > Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness > > 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle > > Suite D > > Topeka, KS 66618 > > (W) > > (F) > > Ric@...<mailto:Ric@...<mailto:Ric@.... com> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 , You are missing the point. I am not talking about ethics. I am talking about PTs in autonomous practice and how non-PT owners are hurting the move toward that. Not attacking you...attacking the concept. Did not mean to offend. As a non-PT how could you or would you understand? I am glad your staff is happy and I am glad you do not pressure them into performance goals that hurt morale, ethics, and customer service. You are an exception to the rule. My point is that non-PT ownership of a future autonomous profession will set it back. Re: where are we going? > > > > > > > > > > In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " > which > > is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not > have the > > ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for > him to > > understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and > autonomous > > practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in > to > > gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it > the > > wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are > doing our > > profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for > it, it > > will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I > personally do > > not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA > and > > the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that > we > > deserve. > > > > I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the > > profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and > move > > forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are > referring to > > and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any > other > > layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I > will > > continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the > country. Might > > be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that > > someday it will happen. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC > > Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness > > 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle > > Suite D > > Topeka, KS 66618 > > (W) > > (F) > > Ric@...<mailto:Ric@...<mailto:Ric@.... com> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 , You are missing the point. I am not talking about ethics. I am talking about PTs in autonomous practice and how non-PT owners are hurting the move toward that. Not attacking you...attacking the concept. Did not mean to offend. As a non-PT how could you or would you understand? I am glad your staff is happy and I am glad you do not pressure them into performance goals that hurt morale, ethics, and customer service. You are an exception to the rule. My point is that non-PT ownership of a future autonomous profession will set it back. Re: where are we going? > > > > > > > > > > In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " > which > > is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not > have the > > ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for > him to > > understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and > autonomous > > practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in > to > > gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it > the > > wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are > doing our > > profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for > it, it > > will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I > personally do > > not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA > and > > the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that > we > > deserve. > > > > I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the > > profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and > move > > forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are > referring to > > and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any > other > > layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I > will > > continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the > country. Might > > be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that > > someday it will happen. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC > > Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness > > 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle > > Suite D > > Topeka, KS 66618 > > (W) > > (F) > > Ric@...<mailto:Ric@...<mailto:Ric@.... com> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 , I'm not attacking non PT owned clinics. I apologize if it came across as such. I don't think I'm " morally superior " for having a PT education. I'm just recalling a corporation that prides themself on unethical behavior that just happens to be run by non PT's. Next time you want to cast the ethical or moral stone, watch where you cast it. It's not about moral superiority but in what is best for the patient. Non-PT's and PT's can exist on the same level and neither thinks they are morally superior. The only difference is that PT's, OT's, and ST's keep the patient in mind first and business second, whereas non-therapists keep in mind business first and the individual second. Personally, I would be curious as to what your background (and other PT's involved in rehab ownership) is in rehabilitation. Professionally, Mike Connors, MPT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2004 Report Share Posted December 31, 2004 Just because an owner is not a therapist doesn't mean that the business and the related industry is going to hell in a handbasket. The converse is also true, Therapist ownership does not guaranty that the business is going to be run perfectly. As many know, I am a CPA. In my industry, CPA's have historically owned Accounting Practices. That did not prevent Arthur Andersen CPA owners from shredding documents and committing massive fraud in the Enron deal. I will say this however-the operations of a therapy business ought to be run by a therapist. The vision of a therapy company (which is usually provided by a CEO) ought to come from a therapist. But in a lot of cases, the financial direction of the therapy company should be handled by someone other than a therapist. And since the CFO of any organization is a valuable person, it might be prudent to include them as a part of the ownership of the business. One other point, CEO, COO and CFO's conjure up an image of big business. If you look inside of any organization, these positions are there in some form. In most therapy owned clinics, these titles don't exist. But the function is still there. The question then becomes, do I need some of these functions handled internally or, can they be handled in some other fashion. Many successful therapy companies wind up growing and eventually need these functions formalized. Without this, they stagnate or get out of control. I guess my point in all of this rambling is that someone is always going to dream the Healthsouth dream and build a bigger company. As this growth occurs, it might take a little more vision than a core group of therapist owners. I run a billing service. At some point as we grow, I envision adding a non financial person to my business because my vision is limited. I would absolutely hate to have my company limited by my abilities. In order to grow, serve and be a better steward of our resources, I think I will be bringing on people of backgrounds different from my own in order to better serve my client's needs. That might mean bringing on a therapist. Because my company is financial in nature, I could exclude someone else from ownership because they are " not of the same background " as I am. If I were to do this, I think I would be indirectly telling this person that they are not worthy in my eyes. Sorry if this post is offensive to some. I do want to say that this list serve has been an incredible source of information, inspiration and emotional support for me over the 7 years that K. has made it available. As we head into 2005, I wish each and every one of you a great New Year and God's richest blessings on you and your family! Jim Hall, CPA <///>< General Manager Rehab Management Services, LLC Cedar Rapids, IA 319/447-5625 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2004 Report Share Posted December 31, 2004 Just because an owner is not a therapist doesn't mean that the business and the related industry is going to hell in a handbasket. The converse is also true, Therapist ownership does not guaranty that the business is going to be run perfectly. As many know, I am a CPA. In my industry, CPA's have historically owned Accounting Practices. That did not prevent Arthur Andersen CPA owners from shredding documents and committing massive fraud in the Enron deal. I will say this however-the operations of a therapy business ought to be run by a therapist. The vision of a therapy company (which is usually provided by a CEO) ought to come from a therapist. But in a lot of cases, the financial direction of the therapy company should be handled by someone other than a therapist. And since the CFO of any organization is a valuable person, it might be prudent to include them as a part of the ownership of the business. One other point, CEO, COO and CFO's conjure up an image of big business. If you look inside of any organization, these positions are there in some form. In most therapy owned clinics, these titles don't exist. But the function is still there. The question then becomes, do I need some of these functions handled internally or, can they be handled in some other fashion. Many successful therapy companies wind up growing and eventually need these functions formalized. Without this, they stagnate or get out of control. I guess my point in all of this rambling is that someone is always going to dream the Healthsouth dream and build a bigger company. As this growth occurs, it might take a little more vision than a core group of therapist owners. I run a billing service. At some point as we grow, I envision adding a non financial person to my business because my vision is limited. I would absolutely hate to have my company limited by my abilities. In order to grow, serve and be a better steward of our resources, I think I will be bringing on people of backgrounds different from my own in order to better serve my client's needs. That might mean bringing on a therapist. Because my company is financial in nature, I could exclude someone else from ownership because they are " not of the same background " as I am. If I were to do this, I think I would be indirectly telling this person that they are not worthy in my eyes. Sorry if this post is offensive to some. I do want to say that this list serve has been an incredible source of information, inspiration and emotional support for me over the 7 years that K. has made it available. As we head into 2005, I wish each and every one of you a great New Year and God's richest blessings on you and your family! Jim Hall, CPA <///>< General Manager Rehab Management Services, LLC Cedar Rapids, IA 319/447-5625 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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