Help with saliva tests, Please

[Guest guest]

I STILL disagree with this. If you take HC at bedtime it will LOWER

ACTH thus lowering your AM cortisol.So you still are only seeing part if

the picture testing on HC. You see if it is too high maybe, if you catch

it peaking.. Who knows how fats YOUR digestion is? I can tell you form

being DIabetic it is differnt in everyone.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

My Ebay Jewelry Store http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

[Guest guest]

I STILL disagree with this. If you take HC at bedtime it will LOWER

ACTH thus lowering your AM cortisol.So you still are only seeing part if

the picture testing on HC. You see if it is too high maybe, if you catch

it peaking.. Who knows how fats YOUR digestion is? I can tell you form

being DIabetic it is differnt in everyone.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

My Ebay Jewelry Store http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

[Guest guest]

Nope that's ok I need to join to read it.

Thanks Phil

dwarrickh wrote:

Hope this works!

http://tinyurl.com/2dt3gh

Dianne

> >

> > Thanks for your response. I was under the impression saliva tests

> > could help assess treatment efficacy. The instructions didn't say

> > anything about discontinuing oral hormones. Plus, I was worried

about

> > suddenly stopping the hydrocortisone. For the tests,

> > I collected the 1st sample 24 hrs after my last dose of meds,

then

> > took my meds, and 4 hours later, collected the noon sample.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a PS3 game guru.

> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

Yahoo! Games.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nope that's ok I need to join to read it.

Thanks Phil

dwarrickh wrote:

Hope this works!

http://tinyurl.com/2dt3gh

Dianne

> >

> > Thanks for your response. I was under the impression saliva tests

> > could help assess treatment efficacy. The instructions didn't say

> > anything about discontinuing oral hormones. Plus, I was worried

about

> > suddenly stopping the hydrocortisone. For the tests,

> > I collected the 1st sample 24 hrs after my last dose of meds,

then

> > took my meds, and 4 hours later, collected the noon sample.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a PS3 game guru.

> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

Yahoo! Games.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nope that's ok I need to join to read it.

Thanks Phil

dwarrickh wrote:

Hope this works!

http://tinyurl.com/2dt3gh

Dianne

> >

> > Thanks for your response. I was under the impression saliva tests

> > could help assess treatment efficacy. The instructions didn't say

> > anything about discontinuing oral hormones. Plus, I was worried

about

> > suddenly stopping the hydrocortisone. For the tests,

> > I collected the 1st sample 24 hrs after my last dose of meds,

then

> > took my meds, and 4 hours later, collected the noon sample.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a PS3 game guru.

> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

Yahoo! Games.

>

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> > >>According to this doctor you can test while on meds to see how

your

> > treatment is going. There is a specific protocol for doing it

> though. <<

> >

> > Though I can't see all the message, i have to let you know Pat

is NOT

> a doctor. By his own admission, though he certainly allows people

to

> think he is.

> >

> > --

> > Artistic Grooming-

Hurricane WV

> > My Ebay Jewelry Store

> http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

> > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Thanks for your response. I was under the impression saliva

tests

> > could help assess treatment efficacy. The instructions didn't

say

> > anything about discontinuing oral hormones. Plus, I was worried

about

> > suddenly stopping the hydrocortisone. For the tests,

> > I collected the 1st sample 24 hrs after my last dose of meds,

then

> > took my meds, and 4 hours later, collected the noon sample.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a PS3 game guru.

> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

Yahoo! Games.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kim,

Basically the protocol has to do with putting the HC in capsules

before you take it so that it does not touch the mouth. Do a saliva

sample upon waking and THEN take your first dose of medication in the

capsule. Two hours later do another sample which will tell you how

your body just used that dose. Then do a noon sample.

Personally, I have not done this. I wasn't on HC either time I did

saliva testing. I just started HC this week while I was waiting for

my labs to come back. at the Stop the Thyroid Madness forum

says that HC has a half life of 1 1/2 hours but that could also be 1

to 8 hours depending upon the individual. If you were only low in

the morning it is possible that you only needed a morning dose if you

happen to be one of those people that the cortisol stays with you for

hours after you take it.

Sometimes if you supplement with magnesium it helps with the racing

heart problem.

I hope that you get to feeling better soon!

Dianne

> >Diane & Phil:

>

> I was reading your links, can I ask you what this protocol is? I

> joined this site but my membership is still pending. I cut back a

> bit on the HC and feel better. I take 7.5-5.2.5. I just want to

> sit with that and see how I feel. I'm going to increase my armour

> to 1gr this week. The problem is I had excess HC sloshing around

> and not enough armour. I have problems with shortness of breath

and

> my heart racing all the time on any exertion. Mind you I've had my

> period for 7 weeks so I'm assuming that;s due to low Hgb. I talked

> to my doc, he thinks it's a reaction to HC. But the problem is I

> was making no cortisol in the am, it was 6. The rest of the day

was

> fine, so I think I'm taking excess cortisol for nothing. The thing

> with cortef is it can cause all kinds of nasty health problems if

> you don't need it. I think my adrenals are dependent on it now so

> I'm not sure what to do. I'll watch my temps and he's sending me

> for a wack of blood work. He wanted me to stop HC. But I can't

> just stop it especially if we're trying to increase my Hc...we'll

> end up back on square one. any thoughts? Oh yeah, my TSH is 22 .

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kim I was 6 on my blood test for Cortisol and I know 3 other men like me they

did 10mgs of HC first thing in the morning and that is all they did. I ordered

the Canary Club Saliva test and never got it. They billed me for the test and

we went around and around finely they were sending me the test again never got

it. So I don't know how my cortisol levels were for the the day. Yet my having

a pituitary problem and the messages not getting to my adrenals to make more

cortisol we felt I am low allday. I tried doing 10 mgs. of cortisol using

Isocort and by noon felt weak. So I do 10mgs in the morning and 5mgs at noon

and dinner. I tried to take it at bed time but can't sleep doing this. The

guys only did 10 mgs. in the morning and to talk to them they felt fine. They

were also doing a low does of Pregnenolone. I tried doing this and felt hot

allday and was sweating bad I can't take this. But here is a cut & paste of one

of the guys doing good on this and only 5mgs

of HC in the morning.

Phil

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

-----------------------------------------------------

For the past 2 days I have tried 10mg of oral pregnenolone in the morning. The

results have been really, really good. I have Adrenal Fatigue and take 5mg

hydrocortisone in the morning and 25mg DHEA. I was pondering at one time whether

it would be better to take pregnenolone which converts into all the Adrenal

hormones (Cortisol, DHEA, Aldosterone, Progesterone, Testosterone, Estrogen), or

to take the hormones individually because one does not know what pregnenolone is

going to convert to, and one relies on the body's wisdom to convert pregnenolone

to what it needs. Taking the pregnenolone the past couple days is making me

think that it is the better route. I have experienced an even better " feeling of

well being " than from using HCG.

Most of the literature discusses the use of oral pregnenolone. There is also no

info about how long a single dose will be effective for. I noticed that

pregnenolone is also available in a cream which delivers 15mg of pregnenolone,

which I believe would be equal to about a 50mg oral dose, which I think may be

too much.

Does anyone have any info on oral versus transdermal?

Kim wrote:

> >

> > Thanks for your response. I was under the impression saliva

tests

> > could help assess treatment efficacy. The instructions didn't

say

> > anything about discontinuing oral hormones. Plus, I was worried

about

> > suddenly stopping the hydrocortisone. For the tests,

> > I collected the 1st sample 24 hrs after my last dose of meds,

then

> > took my meds, and 4 hours later, collected the noon sample.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a PS3 game guru.

> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

Yahoo! Games.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Val, I think you're right about this.

But I don't let it bother me, because I've learned far more from

non-drs than from the drs who practically killed me!

Warmly,

>

> >>According to this doctor you can test while on meds to see how your

> treatment is going. There is a specific protocol for doing it

though. <<

>

> Though I can't see all the message, i have to let you know Pat is

NOT a doctor. By his own admission, though he certainly allows people

to think he is.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> My Ebay Jewelry Store

http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

[Guest guest]

Val, I think you're right about this.

But I don't let it bother me, because I've learned far more from

non-drs than from the drs who practically killed me!

Warmly,

>

> >>According to this doctor you can test while on meds to see how your

> treatment is going. There is a specific protocol for doing it

though. <<

>

> Though I can't see all the message, i have to let you know Pat is

NOT a doctor. By his own admission, though he certainly allows people

to think he is.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> My Ebay Jewelry Store

http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

[Guest guest]

Val, I think you're right about this.

But I don't let it bother me, because I've learned far more from

non-drs than from the drs who practically killed me!

Warmly,

>

> >>According to this doctor you can test while on meds to see how your

> treatment is going. There is a specific protocol for doing it

though. <<

>

> Though I can't see all the message, i have to let you know Pat is

NOT a doctor. By his own admission, though he certainly allows people

to think he is.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> My Ebay Jewelry Store

http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

[Guest guest]

Here is the protocol for testing while ON HC for those not on the

other forum. The point of testing while on HC is twofold:

1) so you don't have to go off HC, since many of us can't at this point.

2) to determine if at any point in your day your cortisol levels are

going TOO high.

I just did the " variant " test with a clean saliva sample first thing

in the AM with no HC, to see how the adrenals have improved on their

own, and the remainder of the day with HC in pre-prepared gel caps.

With this method you have to shine the midnight number, but I think

it's worth it to see if there's adrenal improvement without going off HC.

Just my two cents...

Here's the protocol:

________________________________________________________

Can you clarify if there is value in saliva testing for

cortisol while on HC?

Pat:

A couple of options:

1.) Try reducing the later dose that may be the problem.

See how you feel. If worse, just resume the prior routine.

2.) Test and see where you are:

If saliva testing, be careful, as even momentary contact

of Cortef on the tongue, will give a Very High false score.

To avoid this, put the Cortef in gell caps. You can get them

at many health food stores.

Make sure there is no Cortef on your fingers when

handling the gell caps.

To do this, break the Cortef in half, and lay them on

the counter.

Wash and dry your hands.

Pick-up the Cortef with the gell caps without touching

the Cortef. Sounds complicated but it's easy.

The gell cap dissolves in seconds in your stomach and

will not effect the dose. It just gets the Cortef past your

mouth and tongue so the saliva sample is not compromised.

Cortef peaks rapidly.

Take the saliva sample 60-90 minutes after the dose.

The score will tell you how high your cortisol is one-two

hours after taking a Cortef.

Adjust your Cortef dosage accordingly.

A useful variant is to take a baseline saliva right out

of bed in the morning, before your first Cortef dose.

Then swallow a Cortef in a gell cap and re-test in 60-90

minutes. This will show you if your waking score has

improved and you'll see very clearly what kind of cortisol

boost you get from the Cortef or Isocort.

Meanwhile, what dose of Cortef do you take on what

schedule?

Remember some cortisol basics:

Cortisol peaks about the time we wake in the morning.

It declines over the day so it is lowest before bed.

In our sleep it goes up again, peaking as we wake.

Using the saliva test from Diagnos-Techs, cortisol's

optimal scores are roughly:

Wake: 21

Noon: 8

4-5pm: 6

Bed: 1-2

Notice you need 10x-20x more upon waking that at

bedtime.

You need almost 3x more at waking than by lunch time.

So there's a Very good chance you simply don't need

a late dose, or need less.

One of the clearest signs of 'too much' is trouble falling

asleep, as opposed to staying asleep.

[The idea that some people 'need' time release prednisilone

(aka Delta, a drug, not a natural hormone) is based on the

assumption that you are trying to maintain your cortisol

all day. At best a half-truth. Cortisol is naturally supposed

to fall, and fall quite a bit, over the course of the day.]

I work with a person to first fix the am/waking dose.

Based on the initial baseline test I'll estimate how much

to take upon waking. But we'll double check with a test.

- test fasting out of bed....

- test 60-90 minutes later.

- re-test noon level and late afternoon level.

If the waking dose is optimal there is often enough in

the system that the noon level is still good.

Cortisol rises in response to a drop in blood sugar.

If you eat properly and often enough during the day

you may not need Cortef after the initial waking dose.

Remember: You need a waking score of 21, but only 8

by lunch time, 6 by late afternoon, and only 1-2 by bed.

These later scores can often be handled by adequate

blood sugar control of frequent, small meals with

adequate protein and fat, always careful with the carbs.

> > >

> > > Thanks for your response. I was under the impression saliva tests

> > > could help assess treatment efficacy. The instructions didn't say

> > > anything about discontinuing oral hormones. Plus, I was worried

> about

> > > suddenly stopping the hydrocortisone. For the tests,

> > > I collected the 1st sample 24 hrs after my last dose of meds,

> then

> > > took my meds, and 4 hours later, collected the noon sample.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Be a PS3 game guru.

> > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

> Yahoo! Games.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Here is the protocol for testing while ON HC for those not on the

other forum. The point of testing while on HC is twofold:

1) so you don't have to go off HC, since many of us can't at this point.

2) to determine if at any point in your day your cortisol levels are

going TOO high.

I just did the " variant " test with a clean saliva sample first thing

in the AM with no HC, to see how the adrenals have improved on their

own, and the remainder of the day with HC in pre-prepared gel caps.

With this method you have to shine the midnight number, but I think

it's worth it to see if there's adrenal improvement without going off HC.

Just my two cents...

Here's the protocol:

________________________________________________________

Can you clarify if there is value in saliva testing for

cortisol while on HC?

Pat:

A couple of options:

1.) Try reducing the later dose that may be the problem.

See how you feel. If worse, just resume the prior routine.

2.) Test and see where you are:

If saliva testing, be careful, as even momentary contact

of Cortef on the tongue, will give a Very High false score.

To avoid this, put the Cortef in gell caps. You can get them

at many health food stores.

Make sure there is no Cortef on your fingers when

handling the gell caps.

To do this, break the Cortef in half, and lay them on

the counter.

Wash and dry your hands.

Pick-up the Cortef with the gell caps without touching

the Cortef. Sounds complicated but it's easy.

The gell cap dissolves in seconds in your stomach and

will not effect the dose. It just gets the Cortef past your

mouth and tongue so the saliva sample is not compromised.

Cortef peaks rapidly.

Take the saliva sample 60-90 minutes after the dose.

The score will tell you how high your cortisol is one-two

hours after taking a Cortef.

Adjust your Cortef dosage accordingly.

A useful variant is to take a baseline saliva right out

of bed in the morning, before your first Cortef dose.

Then swallow a Cortef in a gell cap and re-test in 60-90

minutes. This will show you if your waking score has

improved and you'll see very clearly what kind of cortisol

boost you get from the Cortef or Isocort.

Meanwhile, what dose of Cortef do you take on what

schedule?

Remember some cortisol basics:

Cortisol peaks about the time we wake in the morning.

It declines over the day so it is lowest before bed.

In our sleep it goes up again, peaking as we wake.

Using the saliva test from Diagnos-Techs, cortisol's

optimal scores are roughly:

Wake: 21

Noon: 8

4-5pm: 6

Bed: 1-2

Notice you need 10x-20x more upon waking that at

bedtime.

You need almost 3x more at waking than by lunch time.

So there's a Very good chance you simply don't need

a late dose, or need less.

One of the clearest signs of 'too much' is trouble falling

asleep, as opposed to staying asleep.

[The idea that some people 'need' time release prednisilone

(aka Delta, a drug, not a natural hormone) is based on the

assumption that you are trying to maintain your cortisol

all day. At best a half-truth. Cortisol is naturally supposed

to fall, and fall quite a bit, over the course of the day.]

I work with a person to first fix the am/waking dose.

Based on the initial baseline test I'll estimate how much

to take upon waking. But we'll double check with a test.

- test fasting out of bed....

- test 60-90 minutes later.

- re-test noon level and late afternoon level.

If the waking dose is optimal there is often enough in

the system that the noon level is still good.

Cortisol rises in response to a drop in blood sugar.

If you eat properly and often enough during the day

you may not need Cortef after the initial waking dose.

Remember: You need a waking score of 21, but only 8

by lunch time, 6 by late afternoon, and only 1-2 by bed.

These later scores can often be handled by adequate

blood sugar control of frequent, small meals with

adequate protein and fat, always careful with the carbs.

> > >

> > > Thanks for your response. I was under the impression saliva tests

> > > could help assess treatment efficacy. The instructions didn't say

> > > anything about discontinuing oral hormones. Plus, I was worried

> about

> > > suddenly stopping the hydrocortisone. For the tests,

> > > I collected the 1st sample 24 hrs after my last dose of meds,

> then

> > > took my meds, and 4 hours later, collected the noon sample.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Be a PS3 game guru.

> > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

> Yahoo! Games.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Here is the protocol for testing while ON HC for those not on the

other forum. The point of testing while on HC is twofold:

1) so you don't have to go off HC, since many of us can't at this point.

2) to determine if at any point in your day your cortisol levels are

going TOO high.

I just did the " variant " test with a clean saliva sample first thing

in the AM with no HC, to see how the adrenals have improved on their

own, and the remainder of the day with HC in pre-prepared gel caps.

With this method you have to shine the midnight number, but I think

it's worth it to see if there's adrenal improvement without going off HC.

Just my two cents...

Here's the protocol:

________________________________________________________

Can you clarify if there is value in saliva testing for

cortisol while on HC?

Pat:

A couple of options:

1.) Try reducing the later dose that may be the problem.

See how you feel. If worse, just resume the prior routine.

2.) Test and see where you are:

If saliva testing, be careful, as even momentary contact

of Cortef on the tongue, will give a Very High false score.

To avoid this, put the Cortef in gell caps. You can get them

at many health food stores.

Make sure there is no Cortef on your fingers when

handling the gell caps.

To do this, break the Cortef in half, and lay them on

the counter.

Wash and dry your hands.

Pick-up the Cortef with the gell caps without touching

the Cortef. Sounds complicated but it's easy.

The gell cap dissolves in seconds in your stomach and

will not effect the dose. It just gets the Cortef past your

mouth and tongue so the saliva sample is not compromised.

Cortef peaks rapidly.

Take the saliva sample 60-90 minutes after the dose.

The score will tell you how high your cortisol is one-two

hours after taking a Cortef.

Adjust your Cortef dosage accordingly.

A useful variant is to take a baseline saliva right out

of bed in the morning, before your first Cortef dose.

Then swallow a Cortef in a gell cap and re-test in 60-90

minutes. This will show you if your waking score has

improved and you'll see very clearly what kind of cortisol

boost you get from the Cortef or Isocort.

Meanwhile, what dose of Cortef do you take on what

schedule?

Remember some cortisol basics:

Cortisol peaks about the time we wake in the morning.

It declines over the day so it is lowest before bed.

In our sleep it goes up again, peaking as we wake.

Using the saliva test from Diagnos-Techs, cortisol's

optimal scores are roughly:

Wake: 21

Noon: 8

4-5pm: 6

Bed: 1-2

Notice you need 10x-20x more upon waking that at

bedtime.

You need almost 3x more at waking than by lunch time.

So there's a Very good chance you simply don't need

a late dose, or need less.

One of the clearest signs of 'too much' is trouble falling

asleep, as opposed to staying asleep.

[The idea that some people 'need' time release prednisilone

(aka Delta, a drug, not a natural hormone) is based on the

assumption that you are trying to maintain your cortisol

all day. At best a half-truth. Cortisol is naturally supposed

to fall, and fall quite a bit, over the course of the day.]

I work with a person to first fix the am/waking dose.

Based on the initial baseline test I'll estimate how much

to take upon waking. But we'll double check with a test.

- test fasting out of bed....

- test 60-90 minutes later.

- re-test noon level and late afternoon level.

If the waking dose is optimal there is often enough in

the system that the noon level is still good.

Cortisol rises in response to a drop in blood sugar.

If you eat properly and often enough during the day

you may not need Cortef after the initial waking dose.

Remember: You need a waking score of 21, but only 8

by lunch time, 6 by late afternoon, and only 1-2 by bed.

These later scores can often be handled by adequate

blood sugar control of frequent, small meals with

adequate protein and fat, always careful with the carbs.

> > >

> > > Thanks for your response. I was under the impression saliva tests

> > > could help assess treatment efficacy. The instructions didn't say

> > > anything about discontinuing oral hormones. Plus, I was worried

> about

> > > suddenly stopping the hydrocortisone. For the tests,

> > > I collected the 1st sample 24 hrs after my last dose of meds,

> then

> > > took my meds, and 4 hours later, collected the noon sample.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Be a PS3 game guru.

> > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

> Yahoo! Games.

> >

> >