Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 can someone tell me where to get that book by fransway? a point of interest, I did leave my husband and I am terribly afraid he wil kill himself because since we now know that AA is a farce, where does he go for help for self distuctive behaviors like this Thanks for all of your help everyone Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 can someone tell me where to get that book by fransway? a point of interest, I did leave my husband and I am terribly afraid he wil kill himself because since we now know that AA is a farce, where does he go for help for self distuctive behaviors like this Thanks for all of your help everyone Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 can someone tell me where to get that book by fransway? a point of interest, I did leave my husband and I am terribly afraid he wil kill himself because since we now know that AA is a farce, where does he go for help for self distuctive behaviors like this Thanks for all of your help everyone Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Several years back there was a guy named john that started hanging around the clubhouse that I went to. He was somewhere between 40 and 50 years, he told us that he had traveled the country for about ten years, he said he went wherever the voices told him to. He came through our area of the state and the local law enforcement picked him up drunk. In our town when someone is picked up drunk they go straight to the State hospital treatment unit.(ha ha) Well did his thirty days, got introduced to AA and started coming to meetings, while he was in the hospital they got him back on his meds to stop the voices. Over the next ninety days was the typical AA golden boy, You know, doing 90 in 90 taken it one day at a time, and accepting that he was powerless over damn near everything. Then got a sponsor a real sweet old-timer named Al. The first thing Al wanted to work on was getting really clean so he told him to stop taking his medication and turn it all over to GOD. There is a lot more to this story. I'm keeping it short because there are certain parts of it that I am not ready to talk about. This incident was one of the things that woke me up to the fact that something was dreadfully wrong with the program. Two weeks after went off his meds he walked into a public firing range rented a pistol and blew his brains out. I am ashamed to say this, but the general consensus around our group was " he just couldn't get honest with himself. This mans life and death affects me deeply. I was one of the people that said he just couldn't get honest. If anyone else has a similar story please share it, lets talk about some of these people I don, t want to forget he was a great guy and I miss him. OK sorry for rambling and getting off the subject but when I read the message I automatically started writing about . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Matt, It is possible to overdose on Prozac. About 8 years ago, a man I knew who had been sober in AA for 12 years killed himself that way. It was pretty ironic that a suicide attempt got him into AA in the first place. Suicide and those thoughts are nothing to be dealt with lightly. I do not think, though, that there is a genetic predisposition towards suicide, however. I think it is more a thought process/learning behaviour problem. Would you know how to speak French if you never learned it? I think it is the same with problem solving. In my own experience, I realize my family never taught me how to deal directly with my problems or difficulties and I rummaged my way through life, sometimes teetering on the verge of doing myself in because I did't know how to solve my problems. That is why I advocate cognitive therapy. I need to change the way I think and deal with situations. My perceptions are skewed from years of abuse. I need constant help. I have submitted a piece to Fransway for the 12-step Horrors book and part of it is regarding three men I knew in AA that committed suicide. It really bothers me, too. The guilt and shame drive you to drink and AA guilt trips and shames you into NOT drinking and gives you nothing to really depend on but a " power " -PLEASE!!! I am a grown woman-I want real answers. I need to know HOW to deal with guilt and shame, not live in the shadow of these feelings. I have been away from AA for 3 years. I walked away after my 15th anniversary and I would be dead today if I had stayed. I would have killed myself, because nobody wanted to get involved with my problems. My ex had beaten me-and WAS SOBER, and I moved out because he was threatening me and had conned most of our friends into believing I was the nut case. If you know anything about abusers, they point their guilt at their victim and accuse the victim of being the abuser. So all these people I had known for years showed no care for me. They all think I'm drunk now, because I moved 50 miles away and don't contact me-and vice versa. I am in a good relationship with a normal man and although things can get hairy, I am pretty content. The guilt and shame are fading-I feel more human. Time can be a great healer-that and a good therapist-and I have lots of both. Love, " md matt " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9421 > I've got kind of a sad story. Over the weekend, my aunt attempted suicide. > She drank rat poison and then jumped off a bridge downtown. Someone saw her > and rescued her from drowning. She's in the hospital now and is expected to > make a full recovery. As you might imagine, this incident has made me > re-think some things about my life. You see, I also had an uncle commit > suicide several years ago. I've begun to realize that I most likely have a > genetic disposition towards depression. So, I've begun taking medication > again. I do so because I'm afraid of where my emotional problems might lead > me. I never have attempted suicide but I've come pretty damn close. So > not taking meds is just too risky for me. > The back story on my aunt is very disheartening. Several months > ago, after a drug overdose and rehab, she quit everything: alcohol, drugs, > cigarettes and antidepressants. She was totally drug free. She got a > sponsor, went to meetings, joined a religious activities group and moved > back home with her folks. She tried to get government assistance to go back > to school and work. > I talked to her about a month ago and she said she was really worried > about not taking antidepressants. She said everyone (counselor, parents, > sponsor) told her not to take them for fear she would overdose. (overdose > on prozac! impossible.) But she really was working her ass off trying to do > the next right thing. > What nobody understands is she has a chemical imbalance that makes her > depressed. And no big book, god, or government program can help that go > away. So, last weekend she told me the pain got too great (not sleeping, > feeling so empty and hopeless) and she decided to end it all. > In my mind, this shows the danger of the AA's opposition to > psychiatric drugs. What AA never talks about is the number of its members > who commit suicide while sober. I knew a guy with 9 years of sobriety, who > went to meetings 5 days a week and who blew his brains out in a gas station > parking lot. When I talked to other members about it, they said 'he did it > because he hadn't called his sponsor in weeks.' > Its amazing how we as humans can rationalize things in our minds and > just dismiss horrible incidents. Nobody has the time to investigate why > things happen or how to prevent them. I've noticed the big book doesn't > have an appendix dedicated to members who killed themselves while in AA. > All they do is talk about all the success stories. " rarely have we seen a > person fail who has followed our path. " What a lie. Is there any proof > there? > I think general society would be stunned to find out how many people > go to AA, sincerely try the program and then either return to drink, kill > themselves or find another way to stay sober. > Why doesn't anyone talk about AA suicides? Its too scary. Members > don't want to discuss there fallen soldiers. They just want to talk about > the living member who seem to be doing well. That old saying, " if we forget > the past, we are doomed to repeat it " applies well to the AA mentality. > Easier softer way? There's got to be a better way. Thanks. Matt > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Matt, It is possible to overdose on Prozac. About 8 years ago, a man I knew who had been sober in AA for 12 years killed himself that way. It was pretty ironic that a suicide attempt got him into AA in the first place. Suicide and those thoughts are nothing to be dealt with lightly. I do not think, though, that there is a genetic predisposition towards suicide, however. I think it is more a thought process/learning behaviour problem. Would you know how to speak French if you never learned it? I think it is the same with problem solving. In my own experience, I realize my family never taught me how to deal directly with my problems or difficulties and I rummaged my way through life, sometimes teetering on the verge of doing myself in because I did't know how to solve my problems. That is why I advocate cognitive therapy. I need to change the way I think and deal with situations. My perceptions are skewed from years of abuse. I need constant help. I have submitted a piece to Fransway for the 12-step Horrors book and part of it is regarding three men I knew in AA that committed suicide. It really bothers me, too. The guilt and shame drive you to drink and AA guilt trips and shames you into NOT drinking and gives you nothing to really depend on but a " power " -PLEASE!!! I am a grown woman-I want real answers. I need to know HOW to deal with guilt and shame, not live in the shadow of these feelings. I have been away from AA for 3 years. I walked away after my 15th anniversary and I would be dead today if I had stayed. I would have killed myself, because nobody wanted to get involved with my problems. My ex had beaten me-and WAS SOBER, and I moved out because he was threatening me and had conned most of our friends into believing I was the nut case. If you know anything about abusers, they point their guilt at their victim and accuse the victim of being the abuser. So all these people I had known for years showed no care for me. They all think I'm drunk now, because I moved 50 miles away and don't contact me-and vice versa. I am in a good relationship with a normal man and although things can get hairy, I am pretty content. The guilt and shame are fading-I feel more human. Time can be a great healer-that and a good therapist-and I have lots of both. Love, " md matt " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9421 > I've got kind of a sad story. Over the weekend, my aunt attempted suicide. > She drank rat poison and then jumped off a bridge downtown. Someone saw her > and rescued her from drowning. She's in the hospital now and is expected to > make a full recovery. As you might imagine, this incident has made me > re-think some things about my life. You see, I also had an uncle commit > suicide several years ago. I've begun to realize that I most likely have a > genetic disposition towards depression. So, I've begun taking medication > again. I do so because I'm afraid of where my emotional problems might lead > me. I never have attempted suicide but I've come pretty damn close. So > not taking meds is just too risky for me. > The back story on my aunt is very disheartening. Several months > ago, after a drug overdose and rehab, she quit everything: alcohol, drugs, > cigarettes and antidepressants. She was totally drug free. She got a > sponsor, went to meetings, joined a religious activities group and moved > back home with her folks. She tried to get government assistance to go back > to school and work. > I talked to her about a month ago and she said she was really worried > about not taking antidepressants. She said everyone (counselor, parents, > sponsor) told her not to take them for fear she would overdose. (overdose > on prozac! impossible.) But she really was working her ass off trying to do > the next right thing. > What nobody understands is she has a chemical imbalance that makes her > depressed. And no big book, god, or government program can help that go > away. So, last weekend she told me the pain got too great (not sleeping, > feeling so empty and hopeless) and she decided to end it all. > In my mind, this shows the danger of the AA's opposition to > psychiatric drugs. What AA never talks about is the number of its members > who commit suicide while sober. I knew a guy with 9 years of sobriety, who > went to meetings 5 days a week and who blew his brains out in a gas station > parking lot. When I talked to other members about it, they said 'he did it > because he hadn't called his sponsor in weeks.' > Its amazing how we as humans can rationalize things in our minds and > just dismiss horrible incidents. Nobody has the time to investigate why > things happen or how to prevent them. I've noticed the big book doesn't > have an appendix dedicated to members who killed themselves while in AA. > All they do is talk about all the success stories. " rarely have we seen a > person fail who has followed our path. " What a lie. Is there any proof > there? > I think general society would be stunned to find out how many people > go to AA, sincerely try the program and then either return to drink, kill > themselves or find another way to stay sober. > Why doesn't anyone talk about AA suicides? Its too scary. Members > don't want to discuss there fallen soldiers. They just want to talk about > the living member who seem to be doing well. That old saying, " if we forget > the past, we are doomed to repeat it " applies well to the AA mentality. > Easier softer way? There's got to be a better way. Thanks. Matt > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Thanks . I had no idea you could overdose on prozac. A few weeks back my aunt had told me everyone was afraid she'd overdose. I suggested that her sponsor could keep the pills and give her one a day. Besides, a lot of doctors give out samples of 20, much too few to o.d. on. There's ways around that. If they couldn't give antidepressants to anyone whoever overdosed on a substance, most people wouldn't be taking them. Matt > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeeGroups >Subject: Re: AA and suicide >Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:10:37 -0800 > >Matt, > >It is possible to overdose on Prozac. > >About 8 years ago, a man I knew who had been sober in AA for 12 years >killed himself that way. It was pretty ironic that a suicide attempt >got him into AA in the first place. > >Suicide and those thoughts are nothing to be dealt with lightly. > >I do not think, though, that there is a genetic predisposition towards >suicide, however. I think it is more a thought process/learning >behaviour problem. > >Would you know how to speak French if you never learned it? I think it >is the same with problem solving. > >In my own experience, I realize my family never taught me how to deal >directly with my problems or difficulties and I rummaged my way through >life, sometimes teetering on the verge of doing myself in because I >did't know how to solve my problems. That is why I advocate cognitive >therapy. I need to change the way I think and deal with situations. >My perceptions are skewed from years of abuse. I need constant help. > >I have submitted a piece to Fransway for the 12-step Horrors >book and part of it is regarding three men I knew in AA that committed >suicide. It really bothers me, too. The guilt and shame drive you to >drink and AA guilt trips and shames you into NOT drinking and gives you >nothing to really depend on but a " power " -PLEASE!!! I am a grown >woman-I want real answers. I need to know HOW to deal with guilt and >shame, not live in the shadow of these feelings. > >I have been away from AA for 3 years. I walked away after my 15th >anniversary and I would be dead today if I had stayed. I would have >killed myself, because nobody wanted to get involved with my problems. > My ex had beaten me-and WAS SOBER, and I moved out because he was >threatening me and had conned most of our friends into believing I was >the nut case. If you know anything about abusers, they point their >guilt at their victim and accuse the victim of being the abuser. > >So all these people I had known for years showed no care for me. They >all think I'm drunk now, because I moved 50 miles away and don't >contact me-and vice versa. > >I am in a good relationship with a normal man and although things can >get hairy, I am pretty content. The guilt and shame are fading-I feel >more human. >Time can be a great healer-that and a good therapist-and I have lots of >both. > >Love, > > > " md matt " wrote: >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9421 > > I've got kind of a sad story. Over the weekend, my aunt attempted >suicide. > > She drank rat poison and then jumped off a bridge downtown. Someone >saw her > > and rescued her from drowning. She's in the hospital now and is >expected to > > make a full recovery. As you might imagine, this incident has made >me > > re-think some things about my life. You see, I also had an uncle >commit > > suicide several years ago. I've begun to realize that I most likely >have a > > genetic disposition towards depression. So, I've begun taking >medication > > again. I do so because I'm afraid of where my emotional problems >might lead > > me. I never have attempted suicide but I've come pretty damn close. > So > > not taking meds is just too risky for me. > > The back story on my aunt is very disheartening. Several >months > > ago, after a drug overdose and rehab, she quit everything: alcohol, >drugs, > > cigarettes and antidepressants. She was totally drug free. She got >a > > sponsor, went to meetings, joined a religious activities group and >moved > > back home with her folks. She tried to get government assistance to >go back > > to school and work. > > I talked to her about a month ago and she said she was really >worried > > about not taking antidepressants. She said everyone (counselor, >parents, > > sponsor) told her not to take them for fear she would overdose. >(overdose > > on prozac! impossible.) But she really was working her ass off >trying to do > > the next right thing. > > What nobody understands is she has a chemical imbalance that >makes her > > depressed. And no big book, god, or government program can help that >go > > away. So, last weekend she told me the pain got too great (not >sleeping, > > feeling so empty and hopeless) and she decided to end it all. > > In my mind, this shows the danger of the AA's opposition to > > psychiatric drugs. What AA never talks about is the number of its >members > > who commit suicide while sober. I knew a guy with 9 years of >sobriety, who > > went to meetings 5 days a week and who blew his brains out in a gas >station > > parking lot. When I talked to other members about it, they said 'he >did it > > because he hadn't called his sponsor in weeks.' > > Its amazing how we as humans can rationalize things in our minds >and > > just dismiss horrible incidents. Nobody has the time to investigate >why > > things happen or how to prevent them. I've noticed the big book >doesn't > > have an appendix dedicated to members who killed themselves while in >AA. > > All they do is talk about all the success stories. " rarely have we >seen a > > person fail who has followed our path. " What a lie. Is there any >proof > > there? > > I think general society would be stunned to find out how many >people > > go to AA, sincerely try the program and then either return to drink, >kill > > themselves or find another way to stay sober. > > Why doesn't anyone talk about AA suicides? Its too scary. >Members > > don't want to discuss there fallen soldiers. They just want to talk >about > > the living member who seem to be doing well. That old saying, " if we >forget > > the past, we are doomed to repeat it " applies well to the AA >mentality. > > Easier softer way? There's got to be a better way. Thanks. Matt > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer >equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer >games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay! >http://clickhere./click/1142 > >-- Create a poll/survey for your group! >-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Hey Jen. I don't know about the Fransway book. I can say that I used to feel like you do. That if I stopped talking to my Dad he would kill himself. I figured out I was taken myself too seriously. I had to think back to the times I've thought about suicide. I never once decided to do it because of another person. I never thought " I'm gonna kill myself to get back at... " The reasons I thought about taking my life was the pain. Just having no escape from the pain 24/7. And yeah, I'd blame other people for my miserable state. I'd find scapegoats. Luckily, most of them knew not to take it personal. My aunt's recent suicide attempt has got the family in a tailspin. Everyone either feeling guilty or angry. Guilt over not having done anything, or anger at her for doing it. I feel neither. I feel sad, sad, sad. Sad that my aunt went through such a terrible trauma. Sad that my family won't come and visit her. Sad that most the world doesn't understand depression or what could make a person suicidal. I get sad and sure disillusioned. But I don't feel any anger towards my aunt. I just feel really bad for her. And I don't feel guilt because I know I was there for her. Before the suicide attempt, I told her to call anytime, hung out with her, asked her how she was doing. I didn't tell her, " you need to go to church or AA. " I just made suggestions. Its an upsetting time for me, because I'm beginning to see the world a lot clearer. I know now that I'm truly on my own in the world. No Mommy to run to. And my happiness level is entirely up to me. And if I continue to wait for my family to act compassionate and sane, I'm in for a long, long wait. Thanks. Matt >From: Javajenv@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: AA and suicide >Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:45:08 EST > >can someone tell me where to get that book by fransway? a point of >interest, I did leave my husband and I am terribly afraid he wil kill >himself because since we now know that AA is a farce, where does he go for >help for self distuctive behaviors like this >Thanks for all of your help everyone >Jen > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer >equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer >games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay! >http://clickhere./click/1142 > >-- Create a poll/survey for your group! >-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Jen - If you think he is in danger to himself, he should go to a crisis intervention center ASAP. If he is unwilling to do this, you could have him put there legally because he is at HIGH RISK. This might initially piss him off, but you could be saving this man's life. Call a local crisis hotline or information and referral number to find out what to do. Good luck. Please feel free to ask me questions. I have worked in crisis intervention centers. ~Trixxi Re: AA and suicide > can someone tell me where to get that book by fransway? a point of interest, I did leave my husband and I am terribly afraid he wil kill himself because since we now know that AA is a farce, where does he go for help for self distuctive behaviors like this > Thanks for all of your help everyone > Jen > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer > equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer > games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay! > http://clickhere./click/1142 > > -- Create a poll/survey for your group! > -- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Hi Matt: I'm very saddened to hear about your aunt and her attempted suicide. I hope she find the strength to overcome this episode and has a chance to see brighter days in the future. I can understand your going back on the meds in response to this. Meds are a funny thing. People on meds don't like to be on meds. They like it for a while, then they seem to want to go off so they can feel normal. You're right about AA reframing the facts about suicide. I'm digusted to hear that the justification used by the members when the guy blew his brains out was that he hadn't called his sponsor. I've had my fair share of sponsors whose " advice " made me want to blow my brains out. There's no simple answer. When such deaths serve to (wrongly) justify the need for working a good program, it makes me shudder. Working the program like it says in the book makes many people feel depressed, and that's no lie. Thanks for posting this difficult story. Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 The book hasn't come out yet. It's due out mid June. Are there any programs that he can find which are not 12 step programs? There's got to be something. I'm kind of afraid of rehabs though, some of them scare me, but if I needed one, I do some research to see what is the best I can get. It's important to be a wise consumer and shop carefully. Sounds like you're carrying a heavy weight on your shoulders Jen. You can't control his actions, and you're not responsible for what he does. I had a boyfriend who tried to kill himself. I tried everything to help him, but he didn't listen to me. He survived the attempt. It was a cry for help, and it pains me that he had to cry so hard. Can your husband stop using drugs long enough to let some medication help him, and to get into group therapy or something like that? Apple javajen-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9429 > can someone tell me where to get that book by fransway? a point of interest, I did leave my husband and I am terribly afraid he wil kill himself because since we now know that AA is a farce, where does he go for help for self distuctive behaviors like this > Thanks for all of your help everyone > Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Apple, thanks for you wonderful reply. I saw my aunt today and she was sitting up in bed eating and watching tv. So she's slowly getting better. I talked to a couple of doctors about her suicide attempt and they were really cool about it. They said acute depression is usually a chemical imbalance that can be greatly helped by antidepressants. They didn't say, " how could she do that? How selfish and childish of her. " They said that depression that bad can consume the person, no matter what he or she does to combat it. I know this is a touchy subject. And a year ago, I would of been angry at my aunt for doing this. But I've gotten to know her and I know she's a good person. And that she tries like hell to beat her depression. I've seen it first hand. The main disservice that was done to her was my her therapist, sponsor, family and AA who all told her not to go back on the meds. That's almost criminal I think. Thanks again. Matt > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeeGroups >Subject: Re: AA and suicide >Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:41:41 -0800 > >Hi Matt: >I'm very saddened to hear about your aunt and her attempted suicide. I >hope she find the strength to overcome this episode and has a chance to >see brighter days in the future. I can understand your going back on >the meds in response to this. Meds are a funny thing. People on meds >don't like to be on meds. They like it for a while, then they seem to >want to go off so they can feel normal. > >You're right about AA reframing the facts about suicide. I'm digusted >to hear that the justification used by the members when the guy blew >his brains out was that he hadn't called his sponsor. I've had my fair >share of sponsors whose " advice " made me want to blow my brains out. >There's no simple answer. When such deaths serve to (wrongly) justify >the need for working a good program, it makes me shudder. Working the >program like it says in the book makes many people feel depressed, and >that's no lie. > >Thanks for posting this difficult story. >Apple > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer >equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer >games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay! >http://clickhere./click/1142 > >-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar! >-- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1 > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 That's a tragic story. Very sad. I went through the same thing when I first took paxil several years back. I was scared to tell anyone in AA for fear of being yelled at. Luckily, I met some level headed newcomers who told me, " screw the old timers. Take the meds. Don't suffer over there b.s. " I think society still has an ignorance about meds. Especially in 12 step groups though. They see them as cheating. If anything prozac makes things harder in the short term. For me, I had to face some serious issues I " d been avoiding forever. That is not pleasant. Prozac doesn't give you a high. It just makes you see things clearly. And that can be terrifying to AA members or other people living in a fantasy world. Thanks. Matt >From: Leek0805@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: AA and suicide >Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:45:57 EST > >Several years back there was a guy named john that started hanging around >the >clubhouse that I went to. He was somewhere between 40 and 50 years, he >told >us that he had traveled the country for about ten years, he said he went >wherever the voices told him to. He came through our area of the state and >the local law enforcement picked him up drunk. In our town when someone is >picked up drunk they go straight to the State hospital treatment unit.(ha >ha) >Well did his thirty days, got introduced to AA and started coming to >meetings, while he was in the hospital they got him back on his meds to >stop >the voices. Over the next ninety days was the typical AA golden boy, >You know, doing 90 in 90 taken it one day at a time, and accepting that he >was powerless over damn near everything. Then got a sponsor a real >sweet old-timer named Al. The first thing Al wanted to work on was >getting really clean so he told him to stop taking his medication and turn >it >all over to GOD. There is a lot more to this story. I'm keeping it short >because there are certain parts of it that I am not ready to talk about. >This >incident was one of the things that woke me up to the fact that something >was >dreadfully wrong with the program. Two weeks after went off his meds >he >walked into a public firing range rented a pistol and blew his brains out. >I >am ashamed to say this, but the general consensus around our group was " he >just couldn't get honest with himself. This mans life and death affects me >deeply. I was one of the people that said he just couldn't get honest. If >anyone else has a similar story please share it, lets talk about some of >these people I don, t want to forget he was a great guy and I miss >him. >OK sorry for rambling and getting off the subject but when I read the >message >I automatically started writing about . > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer >equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer >games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay! >http://clickhere./click/1142 > >-- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault >-- /docvault/12-step-free/?m=1 > > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 At 15:45 17/11/99 -0500, you wrote: >Several years back there was a guy named john that started hanging around the >clubhouse that I went to. He was somewhere between 40 and 50 years, he told >us that he had traveled the country for about ten years, he said he went >wherever the voices told him to. He came through our area of the state and >the local law enforcement picked him up drunk. In our town when someone is >picked up drunk they go straight to the State hospital treatment unit.(ha ha) >Well did his thirty days, got introduced to AA and started coming to >meetings, while he was in the hospital they got him back on his meds to stop >the voices. Over the next ninety days was the typical AA golden boy, >You know, doing 90 in 90 taken it one day at a time, and accepting that he >was powerless over damn near everything. Then got a sponsor a real >sweet old-timer named Al. The first thing Al wanted to work on was >getting really clean so he told him to stop taking his medication and turn it >all over to GOD. There is a lot more to this story. I'm keeping it short >because there are certain parts of it that I am not ready to talk about. This >incident was one of the things that woke me up to the fact that something was >dreadfully wrong with the program. Two weeks after went off his meds he >walked into a public firing range rented a pistol and blew his brains out. I >am ashamed to say this, but the general consensus around our group was " he >just couldn't get honest with himself. This mans life and death affects me >deeply. I was one of the people that said he just couldn't get honest. If >anyone else has a similar story please share it, lets talk about some of >these people I don, t want to forget he was a great guy and I miss him. >OK sorry for rambling and getting off the subject but when I read the message >I automatically started writing about . This kind of thing is amazing. And it is amazing that it apparently just keeps on happening. Advising someone on prescribed psychiatric medication to stop taking it without any medical knowledge, and then blaming their resultant suicide on their " inability to get honest " - that is truly a magnificent piece of bullshit. I wonder if good ole Al ever stopped and wondered about this? It would be good to see an expose of this phenomenon on tv some time in the not too distant future- God knows there is plenty of material out there waiting to be compiled. This really warrants a slot on 60 minutes with a title like " AA's Killer Sponsors- Lethal Advice on Medication " . Or something along those lines. JB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Hello Matt I am so sorry to hear about your uncle and aunt and very relieved that your aunt has survived. There is some evidence for genetic factors in depression, but I dont think you need to think that you will inevitably have it for the whole of your life. I am very pleased however that you have decided to continue taking the antidepressants for the time being - generally it takes at least six months before the recovery is strong enough to come off them without risking relapse. It is possible to OD on Prozac but as you say, extremely difficult. Basically, you need to take so much that you'd probably die if you took the same volume of table salt - and hence it should be thought no more dangerous than table salt. In the event your poor aunt poisoned herself with a very nasty drug that easily could have killed her. Ppl often talk abt the risk of suicide on ADs forgetting that all of them except the rarely prescribed MAOIs are less dangerous than an over the counter, freely available drug that probably everybody will guess but I will nevertheless not mention here. I often wonder how many lives have been *saved* by ppl mistakenly ODing on their AD's rather than this other drug that many ppl routinely keep in their homes! I agree that the anti-med ethos of AA is extremely damaging and I make this point on professional lists like APA Div50 when I have the chance. TO mak matters worse, XA clinicians not only fail to challenge but actually *strengthen* this attitude! Very best to you and your aunt. Pete " md matt " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9421 > I've got kind of a sad story. Over the weekend, my aunt attempted suicide. > She drank rat poison and then jumped off a bridge downtown. Someone saw her > and rescued her from drowning. She's in the hospital now and is expected to > make a full recovery. As you might imagine, this incident has made me > re-think some things about my life. You see, I also had an uncle commit > suicide several years ago. I've begun to realize that I most likely have a > genetic disposition towards depression. So, I've begun taking medication > again. I do so because I'm afraid of where my emotional problems might lead > me. I never have attempted suicide but I've come pretty damn close. So > not taking meds is just too risky for me. > The back story on my aunt is very disheartening. Several months > ago, after a drug overdose and rehab, she quit everything: alcohol, drugs, > cigarettes and antidepressants. She was totally drug free. She got a > sponsor, went to meetings, joined a religious activities group and moved > back home with her folks. She tried to get government assistance to go back > to school and work. > I talked to her about a month ago and she said she was really worried > about not taking antidepressants. She said everyone (counselor, parents, > sponsor) told her not to take them for fear she would overdose. (overdose > on prozac! impossible.) But she really was working her ass off trying to do > the next right thing. > What nobody understands is she has a chemical imbalance that makes her > depressed. And no big book, god, or government program can help that go > away. So, last weekend she told me the pain got too great (not sleeping, > feeling so empty and hopeless) and she decided to end it all. > In my mind, this shows the danger of the AA's opposition to > psychiatric drugs. What AA never talks about is the number of its members > who commit suicide while sober. I knew a guy with 9 years of sobriety, who > went to meetings 5 days a week and who blew his brains out in a gas station > parking lot. When I talked to other members about it, they said 'he did it > because he hadn't called his sponsor in weeks.' > Its amazing how we as humans can rationalize things in our minds and > just dismiss horrible incidents. Nobody has the time to investigate why > things happen or how to prevent them. I've noticed the big book doesn't > have an appendix dedicated to members who killed themselves while in AA. > All they do is talk about all the success stories. " rarely have we seen a > person fail who has followed our path. " What a lie. Is there any proof > there? > I think general society would be stunned to find out how many people > go to AA, sincerely try the program and then either return to drink, kill > themselves or find another way to stay sober. > Why doesn't anyone talk about AA suicides? Its too scary. Members > don't want to discuss there fallen soldiers. They just want to talk about > the living member who seem to be doing well. That old saying, " if we forget > the past, we are doomed to repeat it " applies well to the AA mentality. > Easier softer way? There's got to be a better way. Thanks. Matt > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Hello Jen Well done for leaving your husband. It is understandable that you have concerns fpor your husband but neverthless I thinkat the moment you should keep your concerns on yourself and your child(ren?). Your husband will have to look after himself for the time being, and it is his responsibility. If he suspected you are vulnerable to it, he may try to use suicide threats to get you back, so dont give any signal to him that this might work. Well done again and take care Pete javajen-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9429 > can someone tell me where to get that book by fransway? a point of interest, I did leave my husband and I am terribly afraid he wil kill himself because since we now know that AA is a farce, where does he go for help for self distuctive behaviors like this > Thanks for all of your help everyone > Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Hello " leek " Thankyou for posting this story, horrifying as it is. Recently I posted my great concerns bt the anti-meds attitude of many AA on APA Div 50, a professional list of the Addictions Division of the American Psychological Association. One of its members said that basically knowledgeable types like him corrected the fools who tell schizophrenics not to take thier meds. Apart from the obvious point that how many meetings can *guarantee* that a qualified clinician will always be on hand to correct this potentially *fatal* advice, I also pointed out that many AA-member clinicians *reinforce* this position in their opposition to antideps and other medicines, and the only AA pamphlet on the subject, a little known leaflet, is ambiguous and can be used to justify any posiiton, and is basically a fudge document to preserve AA unity. I pointed out that nowhere in any of AA's literature that I have seen, is tere *any* advice to seek professional psychological assesment whatsoever; in fact, there isnt even advice to seek a medical checkup for the physical consequences of alcohol abuse! An AA on the addictions-discussion list suggested that a psychological assessment should take place " after working the Steps " . In comparative terms this is actually quite progressive, yet the sufferer of the many serious disorders that often co-exist with alcohol/substance abuse/dependence might well be *dead* before completing Step 9, even assuming we can rely on the Steps being beneficial in the first place! He needed to place it *after* the Steps of course, otherwise there is too much of chance the poor sucker might actually get well without crossing AA's threshold! Pete leek080-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9438 > Several years back there was a guy named john that started hanging around the > clubhouse that I went to. He was somewhere between 40 and 50 years, he told > us that he had traveled the country for about ten years, he said he went > wherever the voices told him to. He came through our area of the state and > the local law enforcement picked him up drunk. In our town when someone is > picked up drunk they go straight to the State hospital treatment unit.(ha ha) > Well did his thirty days, got introduced to AA and started coming to > meetings, while he was in the hospital they got him back on his meds to stop > the voices. Over the next ninety days was the typical AA golden boy, > You know, doing 90 in 90 taken it one day at a time, and accepting that he > was powerless over damn near everything. Then got a sponsor a real > sweet old-timer named Al. The first thing Al wanted to work on was > getting really clean so he told him to stop taking his medication and turn it > all over to GOD. There is a lot more to this story. I'm keeping it short > because there are certain parts of it that I am not ready to talk about. This > incident was one of the things that woke me up to the fact that something was > dreadfully wrong with the program. Two weeks after went off his meds he > walked into a public firing range rented a pistol and blew his brains out. I > am ashamed to say this, but the general consensus around our group was " he > just couldn't get honest with himself. This mans life and death affects me > deeply. I was one of the people that said he just couldn't get honest. If > anyone else has a similar story please share it, lets talk about some of > these people I don, t want to forget he was a great guy and I miss him. > OK sorry for rambling and getting off the subject but when I read the message > I automatically started writing about . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 " md matt " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9440 > The main disservice that was done to her was by her therapist, sponsor, > family and AA who all told her not to go back on the meds. > That's almost criminal I think. Damn right it is. It's called practising medicine without a licence. Would these a**holes tell a diabetic to stop taking their insulin? Of course, in reality you'll never get sued for telling someone to come *off* a psych drug. But imo one bloody well ought to. Best, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 At 18:47 17/11/99 -0800, you wrote: >An AA on the addictions-discussion list suggested that a psychological >assessment should take place " after working the Steps " . In comparative >terms this is actually quite progressive, yet the sufferer of the many >serious disorders that often co-exist with alcohol/substance >abuse/dependence might well be *dead* before completing Step 9, even >assuming we can rely on the Steps being beneficial in the first place! > >He needed to place it *after* the Steps of course, otherwise there is >too much of chance the poor sucker might actually get well without >crossing AA's threshold! > >Pete This is a perverse sorting procedure. My theory is that AA is effectively a club for survivors of (and believers in) its own methods. So it makes perfect sense if that is the aim, to deny proper help to someone until they have been programmed- the intention is to force them to conform and swell AA numbers, or make them go away and die. That is why these are the only alternatives mentioned! It sounds kind of callous to say it like that, but I believe this to be true. The belief system and its perpetuation is more important than a human life in AA. JB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 Matt, a woman who rented a room from me long ago tried to commit suicide in my house, and yes, I was angry at her. Not because it ruined my day, although it did, but because she hadn't talked to me, and I hadn't been able to help. And if she had died, I would have to break the news to her parents, and so forth. I remember telling them at the hospital that I would be responsible for her bill, so they didn't tell her parents then. It felt like jumping off a bridge, because I didn't have that kind of money and I knew her insurance wouldn't pay for a suicide attempt. So I was feeling a lot of anxiety. Lots of times when people are angry it masks other kinds of fears, and I think that is probably true in the case of your family as well. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >Hey Jen. I don't know about the Fransway book. I can say that I >used to feel like you do. That if I stopped talking to my Dad he would kill >himself. I figured out I was taken myself too seriously. I had to think >back to the times I've thought about suicide. I never once decided to do it >because of another person. I never thought " I'm gonna kill myself to get >back at... " > The reasons I thought about taking my life was the pain. Just having >no escape from the pain 24/7. And yeah, I'd blame other people for my >miserable state. I'd find scapegoats. Luckily, most of them knew not to >take it personal. > My aunt's recent suicide attempt has got the family in a tailspin. >Everyone either feeling guilty or angry. Guilt over not having done >anything, or anger at her for doing it. > I feel neither. I feel sad, sad, sad. Sad that my aunt went through >such a terrible trauma. Sad that my family won't come and visit her. Sad >that most the world doesn't understand depression or what could make a >person suicidal. > I get sad and sure disillusioned. But I don't feel any anger towards >my aunt. I just feel really bad for her. And I don't feel guilt because I >know I was there for her. Before the suicide attempt, I told her to call >anytime, hung out with her, asked her how she was doing. I didn't tell her, > " you need to go to church or AA. " I just made suggestions. > Its an upsetting time for me, because I'm beginning to see the world a >lot clearer. I know now that I'm truly on my own in the world. No Mommy to >run to. And my happiness level is entirely up to me. And if I continue to >wait for my family to act compassionate and sane, I'm in for a long, long >wait. > Thanks. Matt > > >>From: Javajenv@... >>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >>To: 12-step-freeegroups >>Subject: Re: AA and suicide >>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:45:08 EST >> >>can someone tell me where to get that book by fransway? a point of >>interest, I did leave my husband and I am terribly afraid he wil kill >>himself because since we now know that AA is a farce, where does he go for >>help for self distuctive behaviors like this >>Thanks for all of your help everyone >>Jen >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer >>equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer >>games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay! >>http://clickhere./click/1142 >> >>-- Create a poll/survey for your group! >>-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1 >> >> > >______________________________________________________ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer >equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer >games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay! >http://clickhere./click/1142 > >-- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault >-- /docvault/12-step-free/?m=1 > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Thanks Pete > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeeGroups >Subject: Re: AA and suicide >Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:10:40 -0800 > >Hello Matt > >I am so sorry to hear about your uncle and aunt and very relieved that >your aunt has survived. > >There is some evidence for genetic factors in depression, but I dont >think you need to think that you will inevitably have it for the whole >of your life. I am very pleased however that you have decided to >continue taking the antidepressants for the time being - generally it >takes at least six months before the recovery is strong enough to come >off them without risking relapse. > >It is possible to OD on Prozac but as you say, extremely difficult. >Basically, you need to take so much that you'd probably die if you took >the same volume of table salt - and hence it should be thought no more >dangerous than table salt. In the event your poor aunt poisoned herself >with a very nasty drug that easily could have killed her. Ppl often >talk abt the risk of suicide on ADs forgetting that all of them except >the rarely prescribed MAOIs are less dangerous than an over the >counter, freely available drug that probably everybody will guess but I >will nevertheless not mention here. I often wonder how many lives have >been *saved* by ppl mistakenly ODing on their AD's rather than this >other drug that many ppl routinely keep in their homes! > >I agree that the anti-med ethos of AA is extremely damaging and I make >this point on professional lists like APA Div50 when I have the chance. > TO mak matters worse, XA clinicians not only fail to challenge but >actually *strengthen* this attitude! > >Very best to you and your aunt. > >Pete > > " md matt " wrote: >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9421 > > I've got kind of a sad story. Over the weekend, my aunt attempted >suicide. > > She drank rat poison and then jumped off a bridge downtown. Someone >saw her > > and rescued her from drowning. She's in the hospital now and is >expected to > > make a full recovery. As you might imagine, this incident has made >me > > re-think some things about my life. You see, I also had an uncle >commit > > suicide several years ago. I've begun to realize that I most likely >have a > > genetic disposition towards depression. So, I've begun taking >medication > > again. I do so because I'm afraid of where my emotional problems >might lead > > me. I never have attempted suicide but I've come pretty damn close. > So > > not taking meds is just too risky for me. > > The back story on my aunt is very disheartening. Several >months > > ago, after a drug overdose and rehab, she quit everything: alcohol, >drugs, > > cigarettes and antidepressants. She was totally drug free. She got >a > > sponsor, went to meetings, joined a religious activities group and >moved > > back home with her folks. She tried to get government assistance to >go back > > to school and work. > > I talked to her about a month ago and she said she was really >worried > > about not taking antidepressants. She said everyone (counselor, >parents, > > sponsor) told her not to take them for fear she would overdose. >(overdose > > on prozac! impossible.) But she really was working her ass off >trying to do > > the next right thing. > > What nobody understands is she has a chemical imbalance that >makes her > > depressed. And no big book, god, or government program can help that >go > > away. So, last weekend she told me the pain got too great (not >sleeping, > > feeling so empty and hopeless) and she decided to end it all. > > In my mind, this shows the danger of the AA's opposition to > > psychiatric drugs. What AA never talks about is the number of its >members > > who commit suicide while sober. I knew a guy with 9 years of >sobriety, who > > went to meetings 5 days a week and who blew his brains out in a gas >station > > parking lot. When I talked to other members about it, they said 'he >did it > > because he hadn't called his sponsor in weeks.' > > Its amazing how we as humans can rationalize things in our minds >and > > just dismiss horrible incidents. Nobody has the time to investigate >why > > things happen or how to prevent them. I've noticed the big book >doesn't > > have an appendix dedicated to members who killed themselves while in >AA. > > All they do is talk about all the success stories. " rarely have we >seen a > > person fail who has followed our path. " What a lie. Is there any >proof > > there? > > I think general society would be stunned to find out how many >people > > go to AA, sincerely try the program and then either return to drink, >kill > > themselves or find another way to stay sober. > > Why doesn't anyone talk about AA suicides? Its too scary. >Members > > don't want to discuss there fallen soldiers. They just want to talk >about > > the living member who seem to be doing well. That old saying, " if we >forget > > the past, we are doomed to repeat it " applies well to the AA >mentality. > > Easier softer way? There's got to be a better way. Thanks. Matt > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer >equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer >games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay! >http://clickhere./click/1142 > >eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free/ > - Simplifying group communications > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Thanks Pete > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeeGroups >Subject: Re: AA and suicide >Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:10:40 -0800 > >Hello Matt > >I am so sorry to hear about your uncle and aunt and very relieved that >your aunt has survived. > >There is some evidence for genetic factors in depression, but I dont >think you need to think that you will inevitably have it for the whole >of your life. I am very pleased however that you have decided to >continue taking the antidepressants for the time being - generally it >takes at least six months before the recovery is strong enough to come >off them without risking relapse. > >It is possible to OD on Prozac but as you say, extremely difficult. >Basically, you need to take so much that you'd probably die if you took >the same volume of table salt - and hence it should be thought no more >dangerous than table salt. In the event your poor aunt poisoned herself >with a very nasty drug that easily could have killed her. Ppl often >talk abt the risk of suicide on ADs forgetting that all of them except >the rarely prescribed MAOIs are less dangerous than an over the >counter, freely available drug that probably everybody will guess but I >will nevertheless not mention here. I often wonder how many lives have >been *saved* by ppl mistakenly ODing on their AD's rather than this >other drug that many ppl routinely keep in their homes! > >I agree that the anti-med ethos of AA is extremely damaging and I make >this point on professional lists like APA Div50 when I have the chance. > TO mak matters worse, XA clinicians not only fail to challenge but >actually *strengthen* this attitude! > >Very best to you and your aunt. > >Pete > > " md matt " wrote: >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9421 > > I've got kind of a sad story. Over the weekend, my aunt attempted >suicide. > > She drank rat poison and then jumped off a bridge downtown. Someone >saw her > > and rescued her from drowning. She's in the hospital now and is >expected to > > make a full recovery. As you might imagine, this incident has made >me > > re-think some things about my life. You see, I also had an uncle >commit > > suicide several years ago. I've begun to realize that I most likely >have a > > genetic disposition towards depression. So, I've begun taking >medication > > again. I do so because I'm afraid of where my emotional problems >might lead > > me. I never have attempted suicide but I've come pretty damn close. > So > > not taking meds is just too risky for me. > > The back story on my aunt is very disheartening. Several >months > > ago, after a drug overdose and rehab, she quit everything: alcohol, >drugs, > > cigarettes and antidepressants. She was totally drug free. She got >a > > sponsor, went to meetings, joined a religious activities group and >moved > > back home with her folks. She tried to get government assistance to >go back > > to school and work. > > I talked to her about a month ago and she said she was really >worried > > about not taking antidepressants. She said everyone (counselor, >parents, > > sponsor) told her not to take them for fear she would overdose. >(overdose > > on prozac! impossible.) But she really was working her ass off >trying to do > > the next right thing. > > What nobody understands is she has a chemical imbalance that >makes her > > depressed. And no big book, god, or government program can help that >go > > away. So, last weekend she told me the pain got too great (not >sleeping, > > feeling so empty and hopeless) and she decided to end it all. > > In my mind, this shows the danger of the AA's opposition to > > psychiatric drugs. What AA never talks about is the number of its >members > > who commit suicide while sober. I knew a guy with 9 years of >sobriety, who > > went to meetings 5 days a week and who blew his brains out in a gas >station > > parking lot. When I talked to other members about it, they said 'he >did it > > because he hadn't called his sponsor in weeks.' > > Its amazing how we as humans can rationalize things in our minds >and > > just dismiss horrible incidents. Nobody has the time to investigate >why > > things happen or how to prevent them. I've noticed the big book >doesn't > > have an appendix dedicated to members who killed themselves while in >AA. > > All they do is talk about all the success stories. " rarely have we >seen a > > person fail who has followed our path. " What a lie. Is there any >proof > > there? > > I think general society would be stunned to find out how many >people > > go to AA, sincerely try the program and then either return to drink, >kill > > themselves or find another way to stay sober. > > Why doesn't anyone talk about AA suicides? Its too scary. >Members > > don't want to discuss there fallen soldiers. They just want to talk >about > > the living member who seem to be doing well. That old saying, " if we >forget > > the past, we are doomed to repeat it " applies well to the AA >mentality. > > Easier softer way? There's got to be a better way. Thanks. Matt > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer >equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer >games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay! >http://clickhere./click/1142 > >eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free/ > - Simplifying group communications > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Thanks Pete > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeeGroups >Subject: Re: AA and suicide >Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:10:40 -0800 > >Hello Matt > >I am so sorry to hear about your uncle and aunt and very relieved that >your aunt has survived. > >There is some evidence for genetic factors in depression, but I dont >think you need to think that you will inevitably have it for the whole >of your life. I am very pleased however that you have decided to >continue taking the antidepressants for the time being - generally it >takes at least six months before the recovery is strong enough to come >off them without risking relapse. > >It is possible to OD on Prozac but as you say, extremely difficult. >Basically, you need to take so much that you'd probably die if you took >the same volume of table salt - and hence it should be thought no more >dangerous than table salt. In the event your poor aunt poisoned herself >with a very nasty drug that easily could have killed her. Ppl often >talk abt the risk of suicide on ADs forgetting that all of them except >the rarely prescribed MAOIs are less dangerous than an over the >counter, freely available drug that probably everybody will guess but I >will nevertheless not mention here. I often wonder how many lives have >been *saved* by ppl mistakenly ODing on their AD's rather than this >other drug that many ppl routinely keep in their homes! > >I agree that the anti-med ethos of AA is extremely damaging and I make >this point on professional lists like APA Div50 when I have the chance. > TO mak matters worse, XA clinicians not only fail to challenge but >actually *strengthen* this attitude! > >Very best to you and your aunt. > >Pete > > " md matt " wrote: >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9421 > > I've got kind of a sad story. Over the weekend, my aunt attempted >suicide. > > She drank rat poison and then jumped off a bridge downtown. Someone >saw her > > and rescued her from drowning. She's in the hospital now and is >expected to > > make a full recovery. As you might imagine, this incident has made >me > > re-think some things about my life. You see, I also had an uncle >commit > > suicide several years ago. I've begun to realize that I most likely >have a > > genetic disposition towards depression. So, I've begun taking >medication > > again. I do so because I'm afraid of where my emotional problems >might lead > > me. I never have attempted suicide but I've come pretty damn close. > So > > not taking meds is just too risky for me. > > The back story on my aunt is very disheartening. Several >months > > ago, after a drug overdose and rehab, she quit everything: alcohol, >drugs, > > cigarettes and antidepressants. She was totally drug free. She got >a > > sponsor, went to meetings, joined a religious activities group and >moved > > back home with her folks. She tried to get government assistance to >go back > > to school and work. > > I talked to her about a month ago and she said she was really >worried > > about not taking antidepressants. She said everyone (counselor, >parents, > > sponsor) told her not to take them for fear she would overdose. >(overdose > > on prozac! impossible.) But she really was working her ass off >trying to do > > the next right thing. > > What nobody understands is she has a chemical imbalance that >makes her > > depressed. And no big book, god, or government program can help that >go > > away. So, last weekend she told me the pain got too great (not >sleeping, > > feeling so empty and hopeless) and she decided to end it all. > > In my mind, this shows the danger of the AA's opposition to > > psychiatric drugs. What AA never talks about is the number of its >members > > who commit suicide while sober. I knew a guy with 9 years of >sobriety, who > > went to meetings 5 days a week and who blew his brains out in a gas >station > > parking lot. When I talked to other members about it, they said 'he >did it > > because he hadn't called his sponsor in weeks.' > > Its amazing how we as humans can rationalize things in our minds >and > > just dismiss horrible incidents. Nobody has the time to investigate >why > > things happen or how to prevent them. I've noticed the big book >doesn't > > have an appendix dedicated to members who killed themselves while in >AA. > > All they do is talk about all the success stories. " rarely have we >seen a > > person fail who has followed our path. " What a lie. Is there any >proof > > there? > > I think general society would be stunned to find out how many >people > > go to AA, sincerely try the program and then either return to drink, >kill > > themselves or find another way to stay sober. > > Why doesn't anyone talk about AA suicides? Its too scary. >Members > > don't want to discuss there fallen soldiers. They just want to talk >about > > the living member who seem to be doing well. That old saying, " if we >forget > > the past, we are doomed to repeat it " applies well to the AA >mentality. > > Easier softer way? There's got to be a better way. Thanks. Matt > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer >equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer >games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay! >http://clickhere./click/1142 > >eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free/ > - Simplifying group communications > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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