Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 , I beleive that I confused GPrice with you earlier today. I am sorry to you and the list for any confusion this may have caused. My post " What is Sober " should have been directed to GP. I have no history wiht GP in therms of exchanges. Again mia culpa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hello Gprice; I believe I said exactly what I meant. If you wish to challenge my semantics, that of course is your choice. If you wish to say someone acts in a " Sober " manner while under the influence of alcohol, the laws of most States disagree. Funny they call a blood alcohol test a " Sobriety Test " Guess police, Governor's nor legislatures read your dictionary. An alcohol level of .009 is not considered sober, only not sufficiently impared, to warrant a dwi charge, but still considered impared to a degree. As far as my experiences, they sre in fact mine. If you wish to dismiss them, OK.. If you wish to dismiss me, don't be surprised if I refuse to cooperate. I make no statement or allegation that my experience will happen to all former alcohol abusers. However, if we bet on every case, I feel certain I'd wind up with all your money. Like AA, you've left yourself a handy dandy escape hatch. " If the underlying process of compulsiveity(Is that a word?) is resolved. That appears to me to be a fancy phrase that means " Disease " or very close to it. Employers mostly think any amount of alcohol impairs sober judgement. Are they also wrong? I didn't " tabooify(Again is that word?) the use of alcohol, society has done that in The US, long before even I was born. You have called my thinking extremist, yet you make absolute statements in reply. You argue the dictionary, then use words I doubt are in it. I happen to believe " Sober " judgement does not come from folks who are impaired with alcohol and that is really what I see your argument comes down to. I think you'll find my long ago attempt at moderation, not a unique experience. It happens to lots of folks. Could it be because of AA training and attitudes? Of course it could. I believe the gist of my entire post was that no period of abstinence prepares one automatically to moderate their drinking. You say many do. How many? On a face to face basis how many do you know? Moderate drinking in our society is the norm. By being abstinent I am in the minority. However, it ia a large minority, I believe approaching a third of society who do not drink. Only a small percentage are former drunks like myself. Alcohol, like coffee, is an acquired taste, not something such as cocacola which tastes good to most folks. Bur remember where our reverence for drinking comes from. It comes as a part of our hearitage with the mythical Cowboy, who kissed his horse, shook hands with the girl, kept his problems to himself, except the ones he settled with a pistol. The cowboy and the need to drink alcohol are both mythical. However, doctors I'm sure used it for anesthesia when nothing else was available and dentistry after a pint of whiskey was common, though I wonder if the tooth pain or hangover were worse. 8^) Attitudes to alcohol are culture born, not invented by me. I finally quit believing in AA and The Cowboy at age 52. I reacall being devastated when I learned from a great grandson of Wyatt Earp that he carried, not a pistol, but a sawed off 20 gauge shotgun and killed from ambush, some hero. I was about 14 at the time, but figured Wyatt Earp must be an exception, but he wasn't. I learned the sawed off shotgun, called a " Hog's Leg " , was the weapon of choice for law enforcement. Oh, The great Grandson, now owns " Earp Floor Coverings " in Des Moines, Iowa. His Father owned it when I met him on a job. Yes I did have a nearly full time job from about age 11 on. Another experience you might find something wrong with. The myth gets worse. The " Montana Walk " with men facing each other with pistols, was invented in Hollywood, I believe in 1928 IIRC. Didn't happen in the real frontier. The hard drinking Hell Raising cowboys, were in fact banned from many towns at railheads. An extremist view of alcohol no doubt. Actually they were demonizing alcohol, which I think we can agree was the wrong approach, but was the only one available to them. As a culture, our attitudes toward alcohol, came from a myth. All myths are extreme in some regard. The disease concept has been directly responsible for altering and liberalizing many laws in regard to alcohol. Some changes were overdue, some are downright silly. I'll take up a little more space in explaining a silly one. I was The Law Librarian in prison, did a lot of cases and worked for a while in the law after release. During that time " Shock Probation " became an option to the sentencing judge. Shock probation is a judge sending someone to prison and then within 90 days of sentencing, hailing the person back to court and allowing them to go straight to probation. The shock being the 60- 89 days spent in prison. I obtained shock probation for about 20 guys. Among them, oops put the name in by accident, for a guy who was doing 5 years for 11th offense drunk driving by explaining he had a " Disease " and had never been treated. Unfortunately he was back in less than three months with numbers twelve and thirteen, which I was able to get dismissed because they happened while he was in treatment and on the same day. The parole board cut him loose a year later and he absconded from parole. The other was on a fifth felony conviction and the guy was 54 years old and had done four shots in other penitentiaries. He was a sometimes drinker and I used the Alcoholism Disease for him too, though he didn't abuse alcohol. Point is, it was so easy to sell the disease thing even to " Law and Order " type judges. I used that Disease argument so many times it was downright embarrassing, but it worked more often than not by a long shot. I think that argument only failed twice, once it was on a guy who killed a guard in prison, but there was not much hope on that case anyway. When the guy did get out, he stabbed his neighbor, so I'm truly glad my argument failed. Luckily he didn't kill the man. The shock probation law is mostly a farce, but is still in The Code of 97, which is the only one I now have. Point is, I didn't invent it. Did I take advantage of it? Damn Straight and would again. I regret none of the guys I directly got out of that place. One that was an indirect result of two cases in which he was involved in neither, but fit the circumstances, killed a man in a car Jacking in Colorado. That was regrettable, but unforseen. The only salve for my conscience is he would have gotten out two years later anyway. OTOH, the decriminilizing of Pubic Intoxication, was I think a good idea. Not based on any Disease, but on the fact the sale of booze is regulated and taxed by the State as a legal substance. Therefore the mere fact of being intoxicated, with no other supporting facts, should not be a crime. Of course with the demise of the detox centers, public drunkeness is once again a crime in Iowa and you are not even entitled to a blood or breath test, just the Ipse Dixit of the arresting officer's opinion is good for a conviction, opening it up for policeman to settle personal scores with that law, which they did before so I assume do now. During my drinking years I had a load of trouble in Des Moines and some of those cops are still around. I don't go there, knowing that abstinence is no defense against a charge of public intox. If I have to go, I make it quick. Of course a charge of public intox, would smell to high heaven if I'm in the driver's seat of a car. Mercy!, I almost forgot the repression and sadism you say by implication my experience stands for. I see it a bit differently. I would say the repression comes from a majority that says in effect I must drink to be one of them. Remeber the sign " Never trust a man who doesn't drink " ? I would say that encourages oppresion of the minority who doesn't drink, saying a man who doesn't drink is also without integrity. Unfortunately for your argument, I've seen many more sadistic acts done by folks under the influence, though I have met folks who are sadistic with or without alcohol. I would have to agree if you had said sadistic alcoholism counsellors. I have seen a fair number of them and any number, uncondemned is too many. But in fairness to them, sadistic people are drawn to any place where control over other people is near absolute. However, sadism on an email list is near impossible since computer programs have a " Delete " button. Repression is a good word applied to AA, since it encourages repression of angers and resentments that in fact need to be dealt with for most folks. I will admit that I blame the years of repressed anger for exploding into a rage and I nearly killed a man as a result. While in therapy, 14 years later, it nearly happened again, this time though I was abstaining from alcohol and it was an " Almost " that didn't happen. I also had only been in AA a relatively short time after a fair abscence and it was directed at two AA members, one a counsellor, the other her husband. That one is an even longer story and was over an attack on my wife, not me directly. I kicked some furniture later, among other things, but not people. I have little doubt in my mind I'd have hurt them both, had I not been working on that rage related to PTSD with a clinical psycholigist, who was instrumental in getting me out of AA. Some AA thought patterns do have a life of their own, and can hang around unless constantly challenged, but " Steppism " in my personal experiences, I believe to be a stretch. For absolutist thinking, you might discover that merely being Anti anything is a form of extremism. Senator McCarthy being a tried and true example, which has nothing to do with alcohol. Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups Date sent: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:08:48 -0700 From: gprice@... To: 12-step-freeeGroups Subject: Re: I DRANK! > I can appreciate the personal 'share' of the below message, which is > cautionary against someone embarking on an experiment of alcohol > moderation. At the same time, I see unwelcome similarities to Stppist > tactics, wherein a person says, [par] " I tried moderation, sure, and it > worked for X-times, but then I ended up ,2,3,4 at the door of ... > jails, institutions and death. > > You are correct, Abstinence Is an all or nothing thing; > > however, Sobriety is NOT, check the dictionary. > > Sobriety is moderation. > > sobriety and absinnence are not at all the same. > > Abstinence, especially in this Western society, is an extreme. This > partially explains why the Stppist environment attracts people who > thrive on extreme and fanatical responses to life, and goes to explain > how this extremism can be surrepticiously exntended to other areas of > life. > > Your post, while it may be well-intentioned, is no different from the > councel frequently given in the rooms. > > If you meant to say Sobriety is an all or nothing thing, then you are > flat out wrong. > > If you ment to say no one returns to non-abusive use of alcohol from a > history of abuse, you are also wrong: many many do. > > In fact, I contend that Taboo-ifying substances or othere elements of > compulsive behaviors only serves to hide the motivating forces for the > compulsion and repetitive self-destructive actions. > > If a peson has abused a substance and does not want that substance in > their body anymore, fine. > > If a person can inhabit the chemical space of drinking without > destructive drunkenness, that is also fine; and moderate use is an > easily obtainable goal, provided the underlying forces which > precipitated the compulsivity are resolved and redirected. > > It is my objective to support people in their choice of Sobriety (= > temperence and moderation) and to continually point out the > inaccuracies, extremism, repression and sadism lurking within Steppist > ideology. > -GP > > wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7002 > > Hi ; > > > > I think staying sober is the flip side of excessive drinking and no > > amount of abstinence trains us for moderation. Abstinence is all or > > nothing thinking, just like whiskey till I puke is all or nothing. > > > > Changing habits takes a lot of work and an investment of time. I > > still on occasion mow the lawn or part of it and the doctor has > > repeatedly told me not to do that. It's an old habit, a man mows > > his lawn. I have not invested the time to totally break the habit. > > > > I don't have the time to invest to learn moderate drinking. My habit > > with alcohol is all or nothing. For now I'll just stick with that, > > maybe out of laziness and a substantial fear of old habits returning. > > > > Once I returned to drinking after 11 months of abstinence and got > > really buzzed on three vodka's and thought hey this is okay. About > > four months later, I had my usual three and woke up in a hotel a > > hundred miles from home and to this day don't have a clue how I > > got there. Both our cars were at home. A real no funner. > > However, I got there in the middle of a blizzard and it was two days > > before I could get hooked up to get home. It was really > > embarrassing because I came out of it in the middle of a > > conversation and had no idea what had been said. (Enter the > > Twilight Zone Theme Song) What a mess. Worse, I woke up with > > too much money. Fortunately I DID find out where that came from, > > but it had me pretty worried that I had done something less than > > kosher to get that money. As it turned out, four folks had paid me > > at the bar, which was only two blocks from home. > > > > That was the end of any desire to moderate on my part, though in > > those days it didn't stop me from drinking for long. > > > > Duty calls. I still haven't gotten my shop air conditioner fixed so > > am working nights. Matter of fact I haven't got a good enough path > > cleared to get it out of the wall. All I need do is take it to the > car > > wash and blast the dirt out of the condenser radiator. Physically I > > don't know if I can lift it anymore. I did last year, but that was > then > > and now is now. > > > > Take care of yourself ; > > > > > > > > Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups > > From: UUSEAN@... > > Date sent: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:27:59 EDT > > To: 12-step-freeegroups > > Subject: Re: I DRANK! > > > > > Hi , > > > Interesting. I did find the dictionary entry, " not addicted to > > > intoxicated drink.' to be of interest. In my view, and I must > admit I did > > > get the idea from RR's Jack Trimpey, if I drink ,and I didn't want > to drink, > > > then I show signs of being addicted. If I don't want to drink, and > I don't > > > drink, then by this this line of thinking , I am sober if I don't > drink, in > > > that by abstaining, I am avoiding addiction. > > > > > > The other definitions are interesting, however. Ane the fact that > abstaining > > > per se is not listed at all is very interesting. I hope that today > I was > > > sober in the other sences of the word as well. > > > > > > SOBER SEAN > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ebates.com. Earn up to 25% cash back for shopping online at 75 stores > like Borders, CDNow and Beyond.com. Refer a friend and earn even more! > http://clickhere./click/690 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hello Gprice; I believe I said exactly what I meant. If you wish to challenge my semantics, that of course is your choice. If you wish to say someone acts in a " Sober " manner while under the influence of alcohol, the laws of most States disagree. Funny they call a blood alcohol test a " Sobriety Test " Guess police, Governor's nor legislatures read your dictionary. An alcohol level of .009 is not considered sober, only not sufficiently impared, to warrant a dwi charge, but still considered impared to a degree. As far as my experiences, they sre in fact mine. If you wish to dismiss them, OK.. If you wish to dismiss me, don't be surprised if I refuse to cooperate. I make no statement or allegation that my experience will happen to all former alcohol abusers. However, if we bet on every case, I feel certain I'd wind up with all your money. Like AA, you've left yourself a handy dandy escape hatch. " If the underlying process of compulsiveity(Is that a word?) is resolved. That appears to me to be a fancy phrase that means " Disease " or very close to it. Employers mostly think any amount of alcohol impairs sober judgement. Are they also wrong? I didn't " tabooify(Again is that word?) the use of alcohol, society has done that in The US, long before even I was born. You have called my thinking extremist, yet you make absolute statements in reply. You argue the dictionary, then use words I doubt are in it. I happen to believe " Sober " judgement does not come from folks who are impaired with alcohol and that is really what I see your argument comes down to. I think you'll find my long ago attempt at moderation, not a unique experience. It happens to lots of folks. Could it be because of AA training and attitudes? Of course it could. I believe the gist of my entire post was that no period of abstinence prepares one automatically to moderate their drinking. You say many do. How many? On a face to face basis how many do you know? Moderate drinking in our society is the norm. By being abstinent I am in the minority. However, it ia a large minority, I believe approaching a third of society who do not drink. Only a small percentage are former drunks like myself. Alcohol, like coffee, is an acquired taste, not something such as cocacola which tastes good to most folks. Bur remember where our reverence for drinking comes from. It comes as a part of our hearitage with the mythical Cowboy, who kissed his horse, shook hands with the girl, kept his problems to himself, except the ones he settled with a pistol. The cowboy and the need to drink alcohol are both mythical. However, doctors I'm sure used it for anesthesia when nothing else was available and dentistry after a pint of whiskey was common, though I wonder if the tooth pain or hangover were worse. 8^) Attitudes to alcohol are culture born, not invented by me. I finally quit believing in AA and The Cowboy at age 52. I reacall being devastated when I learned from a great grandson of Wyatt Earp that he carried, not a pistol, but a sawed off 20 gauge shotgun and killed from ambush, some hero. I was about 14 at the time, but figured Wyatt Earp must be an exception, but he wasn't. I learned the sawed off shotgun, called a " Hog's Leg " , was the weapon of choice for law enforcement. Oh, The great Grandson, now owns " Earp Floor Coverings " in Des Moines, Iowa. His Father owned it when I met him on a job. Yes I did have a nearly full time job from about age 11 on. Another experience you might find something wrong with. The myth gets worse. The " Montana Walk " with men facing each other with pistols, was invented in Hollywood, I believe in 1928 IIRC. Didn't happen in the real frontier. The hard drinking Hell Raising cowboys, were in fact banned from many towns at railheads. An extremist view of alcohol no doubt. Actually they were demonizing alcohol, which I think we can agree was the wrong approach, but was the only one available to them. As a culture, our attitudes toward alcohol, came from a myth. All myths are extreme in some regard. The disease concept has been directly responsible for altering and liberalizing many laws in regard to alcohol. Some changes were overdue, some are downright silly. I'll take up a little more space in explaining a silly one. I was The Law Librarian in prison, did a lot of cases and worked for a while in the law after release. During that time " Shock Probation " became an option to the sentencing judge. Shock probation is a judge sending someone to prison and then within 90 days of sentencing, hailing the person back to court and allowing them to go straight to probation. The shock being the 60- 89 days spent in prison. I obtained shock probation for about 20 guys. Among them, oops put the name in by accident, for a guy who was doing 5 years for 11th offense drunk driving by explaining he had a " Disease " and had never been treated. Unfortunately he was back in less than three months with numbers twelve and thirteen, which I was able to get dismissed because they happened while he was in treatment and on the same day. The parole board cut him loose a year later and he absconded from parole. The other was on a fifth felony conviction and the guy was 54 years old and had done four shots in other penitentiaries. He was a sometimes drinker and I used the Alcoholism Disease for him too, though he didn't abuse alcohol. Point is, it was so easy to sell the disease thing even to " Law and Order " type judges. I used that Disease argument so many times it was downright embarrassing, but it worked more often than not by a long shot. I think that argument only failed twice, once it was on a guy who killed a guard in prison, but there was not much hope on that case anyway. When the guy did get out, he stabbed his neighbor, so I'm truly glad my argument failed. Luckily he didn't kill the man. The shock probation law is mostly a farce, but is still in The Code of 97, which is the only one I now have. Point is, I didn't invent it. Did I take advantage of it? Damn Straight and would again. I regret none of the guys I directly got out of that place. One that was an indirect result of two cases in which he was involved in neither, but fit the circumstances, killed a man in a car Jacking in Colorado. That was regrettable, but unforseen. The only salve for my conscience is he would have gotten out two years later anyway. OTOH, the decriminilizing of Pubic Intoxication, was I think a good idea. Not based on any Disease, but on the fact the sale of booze is regulated and taxed by the State as a legal substance. Therefore the mere fact of being intoxicated, with no other supporting facts, should not be a crime. Of course with the demise of the detox centers, public drunkeness is once again a crime in Iowa and you are not even entitled to a blood or breath test, just the Ipse Dixit of the arresting officer's opinion is good for a conviction, opening it up for policeman to settle personal scores with that law, which they did before so I assume do now. During my drinking years I had a load of trouble in Des Moines and some of those cops are still around. I don't go there, knowing that abstinence is no defense against a charge of public intox. If I have to go, I make it quick. Of course a charge of public intox, would smell to high heaven if I'm in the driver's seat of a car. Mercy!, I almost forgot the repression and sadism you say by implication my experience stands for. I see it a bit differently. I would say the repression comes from a majority that says in effect I must drink to be one of them. Remeber the sign " Never trust a man who doesn't drink " ? I would say that encourages oppresion of the minority who doesn't drink, saying a man who doesn't drink is also without integrity. Unfortunately for your argument, I've seen many more sadistic acts done by folks under the influence, though I have met folks who are sadistic with or without alcohol. I would have to agree if you had said sadistic alcoholism counsellors. I have seen a fair number of them and any number, uncondemned is too many. But in fairness to them, sadistic people are drawn to any place where control over other people is near absolute. However, sadism on an email list is near impossible since computer programs have a " Delete " button. Repression is a good word applied to AA, since it encourages repression of angers and resentments that in fact need to be dealt with for most folks. I will admit that I blame the years of repressed anger for exploding into a rage and I nearly killed a man as a result. While in therapy, 14 years later, it nearly happened again, this time though I was abstaining from alcohol and it was an " Almost " that didn't happen. I also had only been in AA a relatively short time after a fair abscence and it was directed at two AA members, one a counsellor, the other her husband. That one is an even longer story and was over an attack on my wife, not me directly. I kicked some furniture later, among other things, but not people. I have little doubt in my mind I'd have hurt them both, had I not been working on that rage related to PTSD with a clinical psycholigist, who was instrumental in getting me out of AA. Some AA thought patterns do have a life of their own, and can hang around unless constantly challenged, but " Steppism " in my personal experiences, I believe to be a stretch. For absolutist thinking, you might discover that merely being Anti anything is a form of extremism. Senator McCarthy being a tried and true example, which has nothing to do with alcohol. Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups Date sent: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:08:48 -0700 From: gprice@... To: 12-step-freeeGroups Subject: Re: I DRANK! > I can appreciate the personal 'share' of the below message, which is > cautionary against someone embarking on an experiment of alcohol > moderation. At the same time, I see unwelcome similarities to Stppist > tactics, wherein a person says, [par] " I tried moderation, sure, and it > worked for X-times, but then I ended up ,2,3,4 at the door of ... > jails, institutions and death. > > You are correct, Abstinence Is an all or nothing thing; > > however, Sobriety is NOT, check the dictionary. > > Sobriety is moderation. > > sobriety and absinnence are not at all the same. > > Abstinence, especially in this Western society, is an extreme. This > partially explains why the Stppist environment attracts people who > thrive on extreme and fanatical responses to life, and goes to explain > how this extremism can be surrepticiously exntended to other areas of > life. > > Your post, while it may be well-intentioned, is no different from the > councel frequently given in the rooms. > > If you meant to say Sobriety is an all or nothing thing, then you are > flat out wrong. > > If you ment to say no one returns to non-abusive use of alcohol from a > history of abuse, you are also wrong: many many do. > > In fact, I contend that Taboo-ifying substances or othere elements of > compulsive behaviors only serves to hide the motivating forces for the > compulsion and repetitive self-destructive actions. > > If a peson has abused a substance and does not want that substance in > their body anymore, fine. > > If a person can inhabit the chemical space of drinking without > destructive drunkenness, that is also fine; and moderate use is an > easily obtainable goal, provided the underlying forces which > precipitated the compulsivity are resolved and redirected. > > It is my objective to support people in their choice of Sobriety (= > temperence and moderation) and to continually point out the > inaccuracies, extremism, repression and sadism lurking within Steppist > ideology. > -GP > > wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7002 > > Hi ; > > > > I think staying sober is the flip side of excessive drinking and no > > amount of abstinence trains us for moderation. Abstinence is all or > > nothing thinking, just like whiskey till I puke is all or nothing. > > > > Changing habits takes a lot of work and an investment of time. I > > still on occasion mow the lawn or part of it and the doctor has > > repeatedly told me not to do that. It's an old habit, a man mows > > his lawn. I have not invested the time to totally break the habit. > > > > I don't have the time to invest to learn moderate drinking. My habit > > with alcohol is all or nothing. For now I'll just stick with that, > > maybe out of laziness and a substantial fear of old habits returning. > > > > Once I returned to drinking after 11 months of abstinence and got > > really buzzed on three vodka's and thought hey this is okay. About > > four months later, I had my usual three and woke up in a hotel a > > hundred miles from home and to this day don't have a clue how I > > got there. Both our cars were at home. A real no funner. > > However, I got there in the middle of a blizzard and it was two days > > before I could get hooked up to get home. It was really > > embarrassing because I came out of it in the middle of a > > conversation and had no idea what had been said. (Enter the > > Twilight Zone Theme Song) What a mess. Worse, I woke up with > > too much money. Fortunately I DID find out where that came from, > > but it had me pretty worried that I had done something less than > > kosher to get that money. As it turned out, four folks had paid me > > at the bar, which was only two blocks from home. > > > > That was the end of any desire to moderate on my part, though in > > those days it didn't stop me from drinking for long. > > > > Duty calls. I still haven't gotten my shop air conditioner fixed so > > am working nights. Matter of fact I haven't got a good enough path > > cleared to get it out of the wall. All I need do is take it to the > car > > wash and blast the dirt out of the condenser radiator. Physically I > > don't know if I can lift it anymore. I did last year, but that was > then > > and now is now. > > > > Take care of yourself ; > > > > > > > > Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups > > From: UUSEAN@... > > Date sent: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:27:59 EDT > > To: 12-step-freeegroups > > Subject: Re: I DRANK! > > > > > Hi , > > > Interesting. I did find the dictionary entry, " not addicted to > > > intoxicated drink.' to be of interest. In my view, and I must > admit I did > > > get the idea from RR's Jack Trimpey, if I drink ,and I didn't want > to drink, > > > then I show signs of being addicted. If I don't want to drink, and > I don't > > > drink, then by this this line of thinking , I am sober if I don't > drink, in > > > that by abstaining, I am avoiding addiction. > > > > > > The other definitions are interesting, however. Ane the fact that > abstaining > > > per se is not listed at all is very interesting. I hope that today > I was > > > sober in the other sences of the word as well. > > > > > > SOBER SEAN > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ebates.com. Earn up to 25% cash back for shopping online at 75 stores > like Borders, CDNow and Beyond.com. Refer a friend and earn even more! > http://clickhere./click/690 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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