Why do people think AA works so well?

[Guest guest]

MD Matt wrote:

>

> I've got a question to pose to the list: why do people think AA works so

> well? By people, I mean general society. I mean, its so common for anyone

> who gets in trouble with drinking to be prescribed AA. It happened to me.

> Why does everyone think AA is a good thing? And why do people just assume

> it works?

Matt,

I think it has to do with a few points you touched upon.

RITUAL-ROUTINE-STRUCTURE-COMMUNITY. These I think comprise the so called

magic of AA. AA taps into fundamental needs innate to the human psyche

in order to cope with an uncertain universe. I believe with all my heart

that those four words comprise the total efficacy of AA's program. The

religious bullshit is an unnecessary adjunct.

You could probably replace the 12 Steps with a ritual of urinating on a

pile of used spark plugs, and you would probably see a rise in the

recovery rate not to mention an increase in the sale of spark plugs.

I think that AA without the hocus pocus would be amazing.

[Guest guest]

Thanks . That was a great reply. I think your dead right about how the

religious aspect of AA is unnecessary. I've said before the 12 steps and

big book just provide an excuse of people to get together and not drink. If

it wasn't the higher power thing it would be something else.

I said before to an AA friend of mine, " I think people just created

this idea of god and a fellowship so they wouldn't have to deal directly

with one another. " Think about it, if people focus on the invisible man in

the sky, they don't have to deal honestly with each other.

The downside of course is that people can become very effective

liars. And AA creates an environment that breeds b.s. No one has to talk

about what's really going on in their lives. They can talk about the steps,

their drinking history, other people (alanon), their family(ACOA.) What a

convenient way to avoid the harsh cruel reality of life.

And we all know how hard it is to connect with other people. The way

I see it, relgigion and spirituality makes it easier.

Geez, what a screwed up day and age we live in. Matt

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Why Do People Think AA Works So Well?

>Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 15:05:19 -0700

>

>MD Matt wrote:

> >

> > I've got a question to pose to the list: why do people think AA works

>so

> > well? By people, I mean general society. I mean, its so common for

>anyone

> > who gets in trouble with drinking to be prescribed AA. It happened to

>me.

> > Why does everyone think AA is a good thing? And why do people just

>assume

> > it works?

>

>

>Matt,

>I think it has to do with a few points you touched upon.

>RITUAL-ROUTINE-STRUCTURE-COMMUNITY. These I think comprise the so called

>magic of AA. AA taps into fundamental needs innate to the human psyche

>in order to cope with an uncertain universe. I believe with all my heart

>that those four words comprise the total efficacy of AA's program. The

>religious bullshit is an unnecessary adjunct.

>

>You could probably replace the 12 Steps with a ritual of urinating on a

>pile of used spark plugs, and you would probably see a rise in the

>recovery rate not to mention an increase in the sale of spark plugs.

>

>I think that AA without the hocus pocus would be amazing.

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>The Mental Health Practitioner’s Instant

>Resource Library for $5.99! A 4-book set

>of time-saving aids for clinical tasks - a

>$139.35 value. Join the book club NOW at

>http://clickhere./click/1364

>

>-- Talk to your group with your own voice!

>-- /VoiceChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

And we all know how hard it is to connect with other people. The way I

see it, religion and spirituality makes it easier.

> Geez, what a screwed up day and age we live in. Matt

You've said it, Bro. Here we are on the threshold of a new Millennium.

We've split the atom, put a man on the moon, linked up the whole planet

through telecommunications, air travel, television, and the internet.

And yet our country and planet is mired in this mystical bullshit. It

blows my mind. I can even recall to my horror that, US astronaut, Buzz

Aldrin is a grateful recovering alcoholic in AA.

[Guest guest]

You make some very valid points in this post. I have printed it out because

I want my psychiatrist to see this. He is 'touting' about me going to AA or

he will cut off my prescribed meds for panic disorder. I want him to know

that yes, I realize that AA is not the only resource available. And that AA

comes across to me as a bunch of people " parroting " the same old tired

slogans that in my opinion are a bunch of b.s.

I am really glad I found this list. Every time I go to my 'shrink' I get

grilled about using alcohol... " have you been staying sober? Are you going to

AA...? " ad nauseaum. At least this guy doesn't want to take me off benzos

in less than a WEEK like that last " horrific 12 step hotel " I was in about a

year ago.

I appreciate some enlightened conversation about this topic. Even before I

knew there were AA alternatives, the 'program' made me feel nauseated. I

don't want ANY part of that 'cult' ANYMORE. I look back to when I got a DUI

in 1991 and was court ordered to either attend 'treatment' or go to jail for

10 days. Looking back in retrospect, I think I would have picked jail,

instead of 28 days of AA " torture " .

~Trixxi

Why Do People Think AA Works So Well?

> I've got a question to pose to the list: why do people think AA works so

> well? By people, I mean general society. I mean, its so common for

anyone

> who gets in trouble with drinking to be prescribed AA. It happened to me.

> Why does everyone think AA is a good thing? And why do people just assume

> it works?

> My opinion is that AA looks like its successful from the outsides.

> There's tons of meetings throughout the world. And millions of members.

> Millions of copies of the big book in circulation. And a bunch of

" stories

> of recovery " to be found. People who tell how AA 'saved their lives.' A

> good example are the reviews of the big book at Amazon. Their you'll

notice

> 15 or so glowing, 5 star reviews and a handful of one star reviews.

> So what gives? To this day, even members of family who drink tell

me

> AA is a good thing and that I should be attending. " go to AA and fix

> yourself. " This baffles me. But back to my original question, if AA

works

> so well why don't I see it. And why do most people run from the program

> after an initial taste?

> I think AA is a direct result of the society we live in and the

> government we have. We live in an " all or nothing " drowning with

religious

> guilt and an unrealistic sense of right and wrong. People are good or

evil,

> light or dark, right or wrong. Look at our 2 party system: conservative

or

> liberal. So no wonder AA is so widely accepted.

> AA is the ultimate all or nothing, " in or out " club. Members

usually

> either stay a very long time or get out quickly. And the members who do

> stay are faithful to the program...ad nauseum. So why do people stick

> around 5,10, 30 years? In my opinion, its because human beings love

> routines and consistency. Some might say we must have routines to

survive.

> I see AA as being just another publically funded burueacracy. Its an

> organization. And it works about as well as the public libraries.

Society

> is fond of these public organizations because they are always there,

> unchanging. You can rely on them. But do just like every government

> agency, AA is hopelessly outdated, drowing in red tape and in dire need of

a

> facelift.

> I think most people would rather not be on the government dole. But

> its good to know thier if you need them. But most of us would rather live

> our lives the way we want to and not have an organization tell us what to

do

> or what to believe.

> So why is AA so fondly looked upon? Well, just like churches or

> libraries or policeman, they all look good from afar. But most of us

dont'

> take the time to investigate AA. To be frank, most people don't know what

> theyre' talking about when they say AA is a great program.

> Matt

>

> ______________________________________________________

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> The Mental Health Practitioner's Instant

> Resource Library for $5.99! A 4-book set

> of time-saving aids for clinical tasks - a

> $139.35 value. Join the book club NOW at

> http://clickhere./click/1364

>

> -- Create a poll/survey for your eGroup!

> -- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

[Guest guest]

You make some very valid points in this post. I have printed it out because

I want my psychiatrist to see this. He is 'touting' about me going to AA or

he will cut off my prescribed meds for panic disorder. I want him to know

that yes, I realize that AA is not the only resource available. And that AA

comes across to me as a bunch of people " parroting " the same old tired

slogans that in my opinion are a bunch of b.s.

I am really glad I found this list. Every time I go to my 'shrink' I get

grilled about using alcohol... " have you been staying sober? Are you going to

AA...? " ad nauseaum. At least this guy doesn't want to take me off benzos

in less than a WEEK like that last " horrific 12 step hotel " I was in about a

year ago.

I appreciate some enlightened conversation about this topic. Even before I

knew there were AA alternatives, the 'program' made me feel nauseated. I

don't want ANY part of that 'cult' ANYMORE. I look back to when I got a DUI

in 1991 and was court ordered to either attend 'treatment' or go to jail for

10 days. Looking back in retrospect, I think I would have picked jail,

instead of 28 days of AA " torture " .

~Trixxi

Why Do People Think AA Works So Well?

> I've got a question to pose to the list: why do people think AA works so

> well? By people, I mean general society. I mean, its so common for

anyone

> who gets in trouble with drinking to be prescribed AA. It happened to me.

> Why does everyone think AA is a good thing? And why do people just assume

> it works?

> My opinion is that AA looks like its successful from the outsides.

> There's tons of meetings throughout the world. And millions of members.

> Millions of copies of the big book in circulation. And a bunch of

" stories

> of recovery " to be found. People who tell how AA 'saved their lives.' A

> good example are the reviews of the big book at Amazon. Their you'll

notice

> 15 or so glowing, 5 star reviews and a handful of one star reviews.

> So what gives? To this day, even members of family who drink tell

me

> AA is a good thing and that I should be attending. " go to AA and fix

> yourself. " This baffles me. But back to my original question, if AA

works

> so well why don't I see it. And why do most people run from the program

> after an initial taste?

> I think AA is a direct result of the society we live in and the

> government we have. We live in an " all or nothing " drowning with

religious

> guilt and an unrealistic sense of right and wrong. People are good or

evil,

> light or dark, right or wrong. Look at our 2 party system: conservative

or

> liberal. So no wonder AA is so widely accepted.

> AA is the ultimate all or nothing, " in or out " club. Members

usually

> either stay a very long time or get out quickly. And the members who do

> stay are faithful to the program...ad nauseum. So why do people stick

> around 5,10, 30 years? In my opinion, its because human beings love

> routines and consistency. Some might say we must have routines to

survive.

> I see AA as being just another publically funded burueacracy. Its an

> organization. And it works about as well as the public libraries.

Society

> is fond of these public organizations because they are always there,

> unchanging. You can rely on them. But do just like every government

> agency, AA is hopelessly outdated, drowing in red tape and in dire need of

a

> facelift.

> I think most people would rather not be on the government dole. But

> its good to know thier if you need them. But most of us would rather live

> our lives the way we want to and not have an organization tell us what to

do

> or what to believe.

> So why is AA so fondly looked upon? Well, just like churches or

> libraries or policeman, they all look good from afar. But most of us

dont'

> take the time to investigate AA. To be frank, most people don't know what

> theyre' talking about when they say AA is a great program.

> Matt

>

> ______________________________________________________

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> The Mental Health Practitioner's Instant

> Resource Library for $5.99! A 4-book set

> of time-saving aids for clinical tasks - a

> $139.35 value. Join the book club NOW at

> http://clickhere./click/1364

>

> -- Create a poll/survey for your eGroup!

> -- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have stated here before that there are a multitude more x-xa's than

there are current

ones at any given time. The problem is, is that most just moved on--a

few drank to death,

a few stopped altogether, and a few learned from their mistakes.

I really enjoyed the observation of the XA demographics of small town.

I'd bet the same

statistics (as a percent of population) would manifest themselves in

any size city or

the nation as a whole. It's kind of like what Jack Trimpey teaches. Go

home, stop

drinking/using/doing/ and put the whole sordid episode of your life

behind you.

In many respects, I have often thought I need to drop this list because

it has put the

whole sordid thing back into the front of my mind. For a year and a

half, it was an episode

of my past, and now it feels like it is stilll part of my present.

The vast vast (I suppose) majority of the ex XAers just moved on, and

weren't traumatized

or trajectly hurt as seems to be the common bond of this group. This

majority will

probably never speak out publically, and won't tell their recovery

stories because they

have moved on and have a life. I wish we could ge t them to each tell

5 others that

there are other methods, and joining a cult would be a foolish way to

stop an addiction.

But there is nothing in it for them to do so. There's no motivation.

So it is us " whiners " (sarcasm--I wanted to be clear a la " slip " ) that

are facing the

battle. But I am ever the optimist. Books are being written, court

battles are being won,

websites are popping up, and I guess it's even finally being discussed

in APA50 (what

ever the hell that is, but thanks Pete for your little battle). Even

Dr. has talked

about RR on her radio show. Now if we could only get to Ann Landers

and Dear ABBy.

I think I'll write them a letter suggesting that they expand the scope

of their responses

to include the other treatment modalities. (Are you happy Pete, I used

a " big " word )

>

> Because AA is always about ex-drunks getting together and bragging

about

> it, AA is always going

> to look like it " works. "

>

> Think of it this way. I live in a town about

> 60,000 people. Out of all those, there is a membership in the local

> group of about 200. Whenever you go to an AA meeting, you are going

> to see a bunch of those people all gathered in one place talking about

> how great it is to be sober, thanks to AA. What you're not going to

> see is the same situation in five years. In five years, there will be

> a group in that same room saying the same thing, but most of the

people

> will be different. That's because a lot of them will have gotten

> drunk and dropped out, or just dropped out.

>

> Another thing you aren't going

> to see in those rooms is the other 600 or 800 people in the community

> who have quit drinking and using all on their own, and are now simply

> going about their business not talking about it.

>

> But because of what we do see, and what people do say when they're

> sober in

> AA, you've got, of course, everyone repeating the same thing,

inlcuding

> Ann Landers, Dear Abby, and all the judges. Those who get sober in AA

> talk alot about it. When they get drunk, they're not going to talk

> about

> *that,* not unless they're ready to crawl back to another meeting and

> whine, " I quit going to meetings and so I got drunk. "

>

> Oh, well.

>

> ______________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

I have stated here before that there are a multitude more x-xa's than

there are current

ones at any given time. The problem is, is that most just moved on--a

few drank to death,

a few stopped altogether, and a few learned from their mistakes.

I really enjoyed the observation of the XA demographics of small town.

I'd bet the same

statistics (as a percent of population) would manifest themselves in

any size city or

the nation as a whole. It's kind of like what Jack Trimpey teaches. Go

home, stop

drinking/using/doing/ and put the whole sordid episode of your life

behind you.

In many respects, I have often thought I need to drop this list because

it has put the

whole sordid thing back into the front of my mind. For a year and a

half, it was an episode

of my past, and now it feels like it is stilll part of my present.

The vast vast (I suppose) majority of the ex XAers just moved on, and

weren't traumatized

or trajectly hurt as seems to be the common bond of this group. This

majority will

probably never speak out publically, and won't tell their recovery

stories because they

have moved on and have a life. I wish we could ge t them to each tell

5 others that

there are other methods, and joining a cult would be a foolish way to

stop an addiction.

But there is nothing in it for them to do so. There's no motivation.

So it is us " whiners " (sarcasm--I wanted to be clear a la " slip " ) that

are facing the

battle. But I am ever the optimist. Books are being written, court

battles are being won,

websites are popping up, and I guess it's even finally being discussed

in APA50 (what

ever the hell that is, but thanks Pete for your little battle). Even

Dr. has talked

about RR on her radio show. Now if we could only get to Ann Landers

and Dear ABBy.

I think I'll write them a letter suggesting that they expand the scope

of their responses

to include the other treatment modalities. (Are you happy Pete, I used

a " big " word )

>

> Because AA is always about ex-drunks getting together and bragging

about

> it, AA is always going

> to look like it " works. "

>

> Think of it this way. I live in a town about

> 60,000 people. Out of all those, there is a membership in the local

> group of about 200. Whenever you go to an AA meeting, you are going

> to see a bunch of those people all gathered in one place talking about

> how great it is to be sober, thanks to AA. What you're not going to

> see is the same situation in five years. In five years, there will be

> a group in that same room saying the same thing, but most of the

people

> will be different. That's because a lot of them will have gotten

> drunk and dropped out, or just dropped out.

>

> Another thing you aren't going

> to see in those rooms is the other 600 or 800 people in the community

> who have quit drinking and using all on their own, and are now simply

> going about their business not talking about it.

>

> But because of what we do see, and what people do say when they're

> sober in

> AA, you've got, of course, everyone repeating the same thing,

inlcuding

> Ann Landers, Dear Abby, and all the judges. Those who get sober in AA

> talk alot about it. When they get drunk, they're not going to talk

> about

> *that,* not unless they're ready to crawl back to another meeting and

> whine, " I quit going to meetings and so I got drunk. "

>

> Oh, well.

>

> ______________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Trixxi

You might well benefit for dropping in on Stanton Peele's website and

asking his advice about your doc's threat. He is a qualified lawyer as

well as a clinical psychologist and this seems like extremely

unprofessional behavior. Your need for your meds is independent of your

need for a support group of any kind, and withdrawing them could only

make your situation worse even if you did need AA.

If you can, it might be advisable to find a different doctor.

Stanton's URL is:

http://www.peele.net/

Best,

Pete

butterbean-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9037

> You make some very valid points in this post. I have printed it out

because

> I want my psychiatrist to see this. He is 'touting' about me going to

AA or

> he will cut off my prescribed meds for panic disorder. I want him to

know

> that yes, I realize that AA is not the only resource available. And

that AA

> comes across to me as a bunch of people " parroting " the same old tired

> slogans that in my opinion are a bunch of b.s.

> I am really glad I found this list. Every time I go to my 'shrink' I

get

> grilled about using alcohol... " have you been staying sober? Are you

going to

> AA...? " ad nauseaum. At least this guy doesn't want to take me off

benzos

> in less than a WEEK like that last " horrific 12 step hotel " I was in

about a

> year ago.

> I appreciate some enlightened conversation about this topic. Even

before I

> knew there were AA alternatives, the 'program' made me feel

nauseated. I

> don't want ANY part of that 'cult' ANYMORE. I look back to when I

got a DUI

> in 1991 and was court ordered to either attend 'treatment' or go to

jail for

> 10 days. Looking back in retrospect, I think I would have picked

jail,

> instead of 28 days of AA " torture " .

> ~Trixxi

> Why Do People Think AA Works So Well?

>

>

> > I've got a question to pose to the list: why do people think AA

works so

> > well? By people, I mean general society. I mean, its so common for

> anyone

> > who gets in trouble with drinking to be prescribed AA. It happened

to me.

> > Why does everyone think AA is a good thing? And why do people just

assume

> > it works?

> > My opinion is that AA looks like its successful from the

outsides.

> > There's tons of meetings throughout the world. And millions of

members.

> > Millions of copies of the big book in circulation. And a bunch of

> " stories

> > of recovery " to be found. People who tell how AA 'saved their

lives.' A

> > good example are the reviews of the big book at Amazon. Their

you'll

> notice

> > 15 or so glowing, 5 star reviews and a handful of one star reviews.

> > So what gives? To this day, even members of family who drink

tell

> me

> > AA is a good thing and that I should be attending. " go to AA and

fix

> > yourself. " This baffles me. But back to my original question, if

AA

> works

> > so well why don't I see it. And why do most people run from the

program

> > after an initial taste?

> > I think AA is a direct result of the society we live in and

the

> > government we have. We live in an " all or nothing " drowning with

> religious

> > guilt and an unrealistic sense of right and wrong. People are good

or

> evil,

> > light or dark, right or wrong. Look at our 2 party system:

conservative

> or

> > liberal. So no wonder AA is so widely accepted.

> > AA is the ultimate all or nothing, " in or out " club. Members

> usually

> > either stay a very long time or get out quickly. And the members

who do

> > stay are faithful to the program...ad nauseum. So why do people

stick

> > around 5,10, 30 years? In my opinion, its because human beings love

> > routines and consistency. Some might say we must have routines to

> survive.

> > I see AA as being just another publically funded burueacracy.

Its an

> > organization. And it works about as well as the public libraries.

> Society

> > is fond of these public organizations because they are always there,

> > unchanging. You can rely on them. But do just like every

government

> > agency, AA is hopelessly outdated, drowing in red tape and in dire

need of

> a

> > facelift.

> > I think most people would rather not be on the government

dole. But

> > its good to know thier if you need them. But most of us would

rather live

> > our lives the way we want to and not have an organization tell us

what to

> do

> > or what to believe.

> > So why is AA so fondly looked upon? Well, just like churches

or

> > libraries or policeman, they all look good from afar. But most of

us

> dont'

> > take the time to investigate AA. To be frank, most people don't

know what

> > theyre' talking about when they say AA is a great program.

> > Matt

> >

> > ______________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Trixxi

You might well benefit for dropping in on Stanton Peele's website and

asking his advice about your doc's threat. He is a qualified lawyer as

well as a clinical psychologist and this seems like extremely

unprofessional behavior. Your need for your meds is independent of your

need for a support group of any kind, and withdrawing them could only

make your situation worse even if you did need AA.

If you can, it might be advisable to find a different doctor.

Stanton's URL is:

http://www.peele.net/

Best,

Pete

butterbean-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9037

> You make some very valid points in this post. I have printed it out

because

> I want my psychiatrist to see this. He is 'touting' about me going to

AA or

> he will cut off my prescribed meds for panic disorder. I want him to

know

> that yes, I realize that AA is not the only resource available. And

that AA

> comes across to me as a bunch of people " parroting " the same old tired

> slogans that in my opinion are a bunch of b.s.

> I am really glad I found this list. Every time I go to my 'shrink' I

get

> grilled about using alcohol... " have you been staying sober? Are you

going to

> AA...? " ad nauseaum. At least this guy doesn't want to take me off

benzos

> in less than a WEEK like that last " horrific 12 step hotel " I was in

about a

> year ago.

> I appreciate some enlightened conversation about this topic. Even

before I

> knew there were AA alternatives, the 'program' made me feel

nauseated. I

> don't want ANY part of that 'cult' ANYMORE. I look back to when I

got a DUI

> in 1991 and was court ordered to either attend 'treatment' or go to

jail for

> 10 days. Looking back in retrospect, I think I would have picked

jail,

> instead of 28 days of AA " torture " .

> ~Trixxi

> Why Do People Think AA Works So Well?

>

>

> > I've got a question to pose to the list: why do people think AA

works so

> > well? By people, I mean general society. I mean, its so common for

> anyone

> > who gets in trouble with drinking to be prescribed AA. It happened

to me.

> > Why does everyone think AA is a good thing? And why do people just

assume

> > it works?

> > My opinion is that AA looks like its successful from the

outsides.

> > There's tons of meetings throughout the world. And millions of

members.

> > Millions of copies of the big book in circulation. And a bunch of

> " stories

> > of recovery " to be found. People who tell how AA 'saved their

lives.' A

> > good example are the reviews of the big book at Amazon. Their

you'll

> notice

> > 15 or so glowing, 5 star reviews and a handful of one star reviews.

> > So what gives? To this day, even members of family who drink

tell

> me

> > AA is a good thing and that I should be attending. " go to AA and

fix

> > yourself. " This baffles me. But back to my original question, if

AA

> works

> > so well why don't I see it. And why do most people run from the

program

> > after an initial taste?

> > I think AA is a direct result of the society we live in and

the

> > government we have. We live in an " all or nothing " drowning with

> religious

> > guilt and an unrealistic sense of right and wrong. People are good

or

> evil,

> > light or dark, right or wrong. Look at our 2 party system:

conservative

> or

> > liberal. So no wonder AA is so widely accepted.

> > AA is the ultimate all or nothing, " in or out " club. Members

> usually

> > either stay a very long time or get out quickly. And the members

who do

> > stay are faithful to the program...ad nauseum. So why do people

stick

> > around 5,10, 30 years? In my opinion, its because human beings love

> > routines and consistency. Some might say we must have routines to

> survive.

> > I see AA as being just another publically funded burueacracy.

Its an

> > organization. And it works about as well as the public libraries.

> Society

> > is fond of these public organizations because they are always there,

> > unchanging. You can rely on them. But do just like every

government

> > agency, AA is hopelessly outdated, drowing in red tape and in dire

need of

> a

> > facelift.

> > I think most people would rather not be on the government

dole. But

> > its good to know thier if you need them. But most of us would

rather live

> > our lives the way we want to and not have an organization tell us

what to

> do

> > or what to believe.

> > So why is AA so fondly looked upon? Well, just like churches

or

> > libraries or policeman, they all look good from afar. But most of

us

> dont'

> > take the time to investigate AA. To be frank, most people don't

know what

> > theyre' talking about when they say AA is a great program.

> > Matt

> >

> > ______________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

butterbean-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9038

> I think one of the most ludicrious things ever told to me about a

'higher

> power' in AA was a suggestion from someone years ago, when I was

explaining

> my agnostic beliefs and how saying the " lord's prayer at the end of

the

> meeting was too overtly Christian for me. " So this creative AA'er said

> " well, then make a tree your higher power...AAARRGGG!!! "

> ~Trixxi

Hi Trixxi

Somebody on APA Div 50 (this is the official list of the Addictions

Division of the American Psychological Association, remember) argued

that AA wasn't religious on the grounds that one could choose any HP,

and one AA friend of his chose the old tree behind the clubhouse!

One 12-step gulag inmate sarcastically asked her tormentors could she

choose a clock on the wall of the rehab as her HP and she was told with

sincerity, yes.

P.

[Guest guest]

butterbean-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9038

> I think one of the most ludicrious things ever told to me about a

'higher

> power' in AA was a suggestion from someone years ago, when I was

explaining

> my agnostic beliefs and how saying the " lord's prayer at the end of

the

> meeting was too overtly Christian for me. " So this creative AA'er said

> " well, then make a tree your higher power...AAARRGGG!!! "

> ~Trixxi

Hi Trixxi

Somebody on APA Div 50 (this is the official list of the Addictions

Division of the American Psychological Association, remember) argued

that AA wasn't religious on the grounds that one could choose any HP,

and one AA friend of his chose the old tree behind the clubhouse!

One 12-step gulag inmate sarcastically asked her tormentors could she

choose a clock on the wall of the rehab as her HP and she was told with

sincerity, yes.

P.

[Guest guest]

Tx jackandj for some great laughs. I hope from my last post you now

know what APA Div 50 is!

Incidentally folks, check out Stanton's story of a community AA worthy

who killed a woman when DUI, and tried to plead his 'disease of

alcoholism' in mitigation. It's a little way down this page: Yuk!

http://www.peele.net/faq/aggress.html

Pete

jackandj-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9039

> I have stated here before that there are a multitude more x-xa's than

> there are current

> ones at any given time. The problem is, is that most just moved on--a

> few drank to death,

> a few stopped altogether, and a few learned from their mistakes.

>

> I really enjoyed the observation of the XA demographics of small

town.

> I'd bet the same

> statistics (as a percent of population) would manifest themselves in

> any size city or

> the nation as a whole. It's kind of like what Jack Trimpey teaches. Go

> home, stop

> drinking/using/doing/ and put the whole sordid episode of your life

> behind you.

> In many respects, I have often thought I need to drop this list

because

> it has put the

> whole sordid thing back into the front of my mind. For a year and a

> half, it was an episode

> of my past, and now it feels like it is stilll part of my present.

>

> The vast vast (I suppose) majority of the ex XAers just moved on, and

> weren't traumatized

> or trajectly hurt as seems to be the common bond of this group. This

> majority will

> probably never speak out publically, and won't tell their recovery

> stories because they

> have moved on and have a life. I wish we could ge t them to each tell

> 5 others that

> there are other methods, and joining a cult would be a foolish way to

> stop an addiction.

> But there is nothing in it for them to do so. There's no motivation.

>

> So it is us " whiners " (sarcasm--I wanted to be clear a la " slip " ) that

> are facing the

> battle. But I am ever the optimist. Books are being written, court

> battles are being won,

> websites are popping up, and I guess it's even finally being discussed

> in APA50 (what

> ever the hell that is, but thanks Pete for your little battle). Even

> Dr. has talked

> about RR on her radio show. Now if we could only get to Ann Landers

> and Dear ABBy.

> I think I'll write them a letter suggesting that they expand the scope

> of their responses

> to include the other treatment modalities. (Are you happy Pete, I used

> a " big " word )

> >

> > Because AA is always about ex-drunks getting together and bragging

> about

> > it, AA is always going

> > to look like it " works. "

> >

> > Think of it this way. I live in a town about

> > 60,000 people. Out of all those, there is a membership in the local

> > group of about 200. Whenever you go to an AA meeting, you are going

> > to see a bunch of those people all gathered in one place talking

about

> > how great it is to be sober, thanks to AA. What you're not going

to

> > see is the same situation in five years. In five years, there will

be

> > a group in that same room saying the same thing, but most of the

> people

> > will be different. That's because a lot of them will have gotten

> > drunk and dropped out, or just dropped out.

> >

> > Another thing you aren't going

> > to see in those rooms is the other 600 or 800 people in the

community

> > who have quit drinking and using all on their own, and are now

simply

> > going about their business not talking about it.

> >

> > But because of what we do see, and what people do say when they're

> > sober in

> > AA, you've got, of course, everyone repeating the same thing,

> inlcuding

> > Ann Landers, Dear Abby, and all the judges. Those who get sober in

AA

> > talk alot about it. When they get drunk, they're not going to talk

> > about

> > *that,* not unless they're ready to crawl back to another meeting

and

> > whine, " I quit going to meetings and so I got drunk. "

> >

> > Oh, well.

> >

> > ______________________________________________________

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Tx jackandj for some great laughs. I hope from my last post you now

know what APA Div 50 is!

Incidentally folks, check out Stanton's story of a community AA worthy

who killed a woman when DUI, and tried to plead his 'disease of

alcoholism' in mitigation. It's a little way down this page: Yuk!

http://www.peele.net/faq/aggress.html

Pete

jackandj-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9039

> I have stated here before that there are a multitude more x-xa's than

> there are current

> ones at any given time. The problem is, is that most just moved on--a

> few drank to death,

> a few stopped altogether, and a few learned from their mistakes.

>

> I really enjoyed the observation of the XA demographics of small

town.

> I'd bet the same

> statistics (as a percent of population) would manifest themselves in

> any size city or

> the nation as a whole. It's kind of like what Jack Trimpey teaches. Go

> home, stop

> drinking/using/doing/ and put the whole sordid episode of your life

> behind you.

> In many respects, I have often thought I need to drop this list

because

> it has put the

> whole sordid thing back into the front of my mind. For a year and a

> half, it was an episode

> of my past, and now it feels like it is stilll part of my present.

>

> The vast vast (I suppose) majority of the ex XAers just moved on, and

> weren't traumatized

> or trajectly hurt as seems to be the common bond of this group. This

> majority will

> probably never speak out publically, and won't tell their recovery

> stories because they

> have moved on and have a life. I wish we could ge t them to each tell

> 5 others that

> there are other methods, and joining a cult would be a foolish way to

> stop an addiction.

> But there is nothing in it for them to do so. There's no motivation.

>

> So it is us " whiners " (sarcasm--I wanted to be clear a la " slip " ) that

> are facing the

> battle. But I am ever the optimist. Books are being written, court

> battles are being won,

> websites are popping up, and I guess it's even finally being discussed

> in APA50 (what

> ever the hell that is, but thanks Pete for your little battle). Even

> Dr. has talked

> about RR on her radio show. Now if we could only get to Ann Landers

> and Dear ABBy.

> I think I'll write them a letter suggesting that they expand the scope

> of their responses

> to include the other treatment modalities. (Are you happy Pete, I used

> a " big " word )

> >

> > Because AA is always about ex-drunks getting together and bragging

> about

> > it, AA is always going

> > to look like it " works. "

> >

> > Think of it this way. I live in a town about

> > 60,000 people. Out of all those, there is a membership in the local

> > group of about 200. Whenever you go to an AA meeting, you are going

> > to see a bunch of those people all gathered in one place talking

about

> > how great it is to be sober, thanks to AA. What you're not going

to

> > see is the same situation in five years. In five years, there will

be

> > a group in that same room saying the same thing, but most of the

> people

> > will be different. That's because a lot of them will have gotten

> > drunk and dropped out, or just dropped out.

> >

> > Another thing you aren't going

> > to see in those rooms is the other 600 or 800 people in the

community

> > who have quit drinking and using all on their own, and are now

simply

> > going about their business not talking about it.

> >

> > But because of what we do see, and what people do say when they're

> > sober in

> > AA, you've got, of course, everyone repeating the same thing,

> inlcuding

> > Ann Landers, Dear Abby, and all the judges. Those who get sober in

AA

> > talk alot about it. When they get drunk, they're not going to talk

> > about

> > *that,* not unless they're ready to crawl back to another meeting

and

> > whine, " I quit going to meetings and so I got drunk. "

> >

> > Oh, well.

> >

> > ______________________________________________________

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Because the icon of suburban ectasy, Anne Landers, says so and if that

is not proof enough then one would have to find and actual real reason.

[Guest guest]

Because the icon of suburban ectasy, Anne Landers, says so and if that

is not proof enough then one would have to find and actual real reason.

[Guest guest]

Hi Trixxi,

I can't imagine that a qualified psychiatrist would insist that you go to AA

RATHER THAN SOS, Women for Sobriety, SMART, or some other support group.

Have you looked around locally for alternatives? If you can go to an

alternative group but the shrink still insists on AA, then something is

wrong with him, and if possible you should find another psychiatrist.

-- wally

-----Original Message-----

>You make some very valid points in this post. I have printed it out

because

>I want my psychiatrist to see this. He is 'touting' about me going to AA or

>he will cut off my prescribed meds for panic disorder. I want him to know

>that yes, I realize that AA is not the only resource available. And that AA

>comes across to me as a bunch of people " parroting " the same old tired

>slogans that in my opinion are a bunch of b.s.

>I am really glad I found this list. Every time I go to my 'shrink' I get

>grilled about using alcohol... " have you been staying sober? Are you going

to

>AA...? " ad nauseaum...

[Guest guest]

Hi Trixxi,

I can't imagine that a qualified psychiatrist would insist that you go to AA

RATHER THAN SOS, Women for Sobriety, SMART, or some other support group.

Have you looked around locally for alternatives? If you can go to an

alternative group but the shrink still insists on AA, then something is

wrong with him, and if possible you should find another psychiatrist.

-- wally

-----Original Message-----

>You make some very valid points in this post. I have printed it out

because

>I want my psychiatrist to see this. He is 'touting' about me going to AA or

>he will cut off my prescribed meds for panic disorder. I want him to know

>that yes, I realize that AA is not the only resource available. And that AA

>comes across to me as a bunch of people " parroting " the same old tired

>slogans that in my opinion are a bunch of b.s.

>I am really glad I found this list. Every time I go to my 'shrink' I get

>grilled about using alcohol... " have you been staying sober? Are you going

to

>AA...? " ad nauseaum...

[Guest guest]

After some feedback from this list, I probably will find a different

'shrink'. I did get a second opinion from another doc awhile back and she

was more than happy to keep me on benzos.

Re: Why Do People Think AA Works So Well?

> Hi Trixxi,

>

> I can't imagine that a qualified psychiatrist would insist that you go to

AA

> RATHER THAN SOS, Women for Sobriety, SMART, or some other support group.

> Have you looked around locally for alternatives? If you can go to an

> alternative group but the shrink still insists on AA, then something is

> wrong with him, and if possible you should find another psychiatrist.

>

> -- wally

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

>

>

>

> >You make some very valid points in this post. I have printed it out

> because

> >I want my psychiatrist to see this. He is 'touting' about me going to AA

or

> >he will cut off my prescribed meds for panic disorder. I want him to know

> >that yes, I realize that AA is not the only resource available. And that

AA

> >comes across to me as a bunch of people " parroting " the same old tired

> >slogans that in my opinion are a bunch of b.s.

> >I am really glad I found this list. Every time I go to my 'shrink' I get

> >grilled about using alcohol... " have you been staying sober? Are you going

> to

> >AA...? " ad nauseaum...

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> The Mental Health Practitioner's Instant

> Resource Library for $5.99! A 4-book set

> of time-saving aids for clinical tasks - a

> $139.35 value. Join the book club NOW at

> http://clickhere./click/1364

>

> -- Create a poll/survey for your eGroup!

> -- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

[Guest guest]

After some feedback from this list, I probably will find a different

'shrink'. I did get a second opinion from another doc awhile back and she

was more than happy to keep me on benzos.

Re: Why Do People Think AA Works So Well?

> Hi Trixxi,

>

> I can't imagine that a qualified psychiatrist would insist that you go to

AA

> RATHER THAN SOS, Women for Sobriety, SMART, or some other support group.

> Have you looked around locally for alternatives? If you can go to an

> alternative group but the shrink still insists on AA, then something is

> wrong with him, and if possible you should find another psychiatrist.

>

> -- wally

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

>

>

>

> >You make some very valid points in this post. I have printed it out

> because

> >I want my psychiatrist to see this. He is 'touting' about me going to AA

or

> >he will cut off my prescribed meds for panic disorder. I want him to know

> >that yes, I realize that AA is not the only resource available. And that

AA

> >comes across to me as a bunch of people " parroting " the same old tired

> >slogans that in my opinion are a bunch of b.s.

> >I am really glad I found this list. Every time I go to my 'shrink' I get

> >grilled about using alcohol... " have you been staying sober? Are you going

> to

> >AA...? " ad nauseaum...

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> The Mental Health Practitioner's Instant

> Resource Library for $5.99! A 4-book set

> of time-saving aids for clinical tasks - a

> $139.35 value. Join the book club NOW at

> http://clickhere./click/1364

>

> -- Create a poll/survey for your eGroup!

> -- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

You should know that any old spark plug would never do. They would have

to be Champion sparks plugs from a used Buick stationwagon that carried

a suburabn family of five to produce the desired result.

R

> You could probably replace the 12 Steps with a ritual of urinating on

a

> pile of used spark plugs, and you would probably see a rise in the

> recovery rate not to mention an increase in the sale of spark plugs.

>

> I think that AA without the hocus pocus would be amazing.

>

>

[Guest guest]

rashley@... wrote:

> ,

>

> You should know that any old spark plug would never do. They would have

> to be Champion sparks plugs from a used Buick stationwagon that carried

> a suburban family of five to produce the desired result.

Damn ,

There's always a friggin catch with these bleeding programs. Just when

you think you've got the right plugs, they tell you the station wagon

needed to have an " easy does it " sticker on the rear bumper.

I sure hope AA goes the way of the dinosaur. Dinosaurs are a lot more

interesting in my book, but I'm afraid the World is quite enamored of

superstition and the supernatural so we're probably not going to see it

it our lifetimes.

People will be filing past Dr. Bob's coffee pot in hushed reverence for

many years to come in the now enshrined house where Bill and Bob spawned

the insidious plague known as Alcoholics Anonymous.

It's up to people like us to keep the light of reason burning, so that

one day humanity might come to its senses and finally put these dark

days behind us. Until then we'll just have to make like Tom Bodette of

Motel 6 and just keep the light on for them.

[Guest guest]

rashley@... wrote:

> ,

>

> You should know that any old spark plug would never do. They would have

> to be Champion sparks plugs from a used Buick stationwagon that carried

> a suburban family of five to produce the desired result.

Damn ,

There's always a friggin catch with these bleeding programs. Just when

you think you've got the right plugs, they tell you the station wagon

needed to have an " easy does it " sticker on the rear bumper.

I sure hope AA goes the way of the dinosaur. Dinosaurs are a lot more

interesting in my book, but I'm afraid the World is quite enamored of

superstition and the supernatural so we're probably not going to see it

it our lifetimes.

People will be filing past Dr. Bob's coffee pot in hushed reverence for

many years to come in the now enshrined house where Bill and Bob spawned

the insidious plague known as Alcoholics Anonymous.

It's up to people like us to keep the light of reason burning, so that

one day humanity might come to its senses and finally put these dark

days behind us. Until then we'll just have to make like Tom Bodette of

Motel 6 and just keep the light on for them.

[Guest guest]

rashley@... wrote:

> ,

>

> You should know that any old spark plug would never do. They would have

> to be Champion sparks plugs from a used Buick stationwagon that carried

> a suburban family of five to produce the desired result.

Damn ,

There's always a friggin catch with these bleeding programs. Just when

you think you've got the right plugs, they tell you the station wagon

needed to have an " easy does it " sticker on the rear bumper.

I sure hope AA goes the way of the dinosaur. Dinosaurs are a lot more

interesting in my book, but I'm afraid the World is quite enamored of

superstition and the supernatural so we're probably not going to see it

it our lifetimes.

People will be filing past Dr. Bob's coffee pot in hushed reverence for

many years to come in the now enshrined house where Bill and Bob spawned

the insidious plague known as Alcoholics Anonymous.

It's up to people like us to keep the light of reason burning, so that

one day humanity might come to its senses and finally put these dark

days behind us. Until then we'll just have to make like Tom Bodette of

Motel 6 and just keep the light on for them.

[Guest guest]

Someone probably said this already but- maybe people

think AA works so well because of people like us who

went around for years and years saying how well AA

works! And now we're pissed off because people

actually believed us!Excuse me I'm in a weird mood.

I'm all pissed off at I'm not sure what.

Kim

=====

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Trixxi, One treatment center I was in was fond of suggesting that people

use the number xxx bus as a higher power.

Artie

n a message dated 11/2/99 9:41:43 PM Central Standard Time,

butterbeana@... writes:

>

> I think one of the most ludicrious things ever told to me about a 'higher

> power' in AA was a suggestion from someone years ago, when I was explaining

> my agnostic beliefs and how saying the " lord's prayer at the end of the

> meeting was too overtly Christian for me. " So this creative AA'er said

> " well, then make a tree your higher power...AAARRGGG!!! "

> ~Trixxi