Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 You know what? The old " AA is about alcohol " is a > convenient response used to shut up those members who open up about the > pain that was inflicted on them, because this makes the people in the > rooms who were the sort to inflict pain on others, relive their guilt. > I have seen so many women shut up by Old Timers for even the slightest > mention of incest or sexual abuse. Apple Right On Apple! Thank goodness I had the sense to ignore the bastards and deal with my shit. You are so right about old timers censoring and intimidating women who are trying to share valid pain. It serves two purposes. First the old timer can avoid revisiting guilt over past transgressions. Secondly, it makes the untreated survivor ripe for the picking. It's about as sick as it gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 Let us not forget the " 13th Steppers " . I remember being very newly sober in the basement of a local club after a meeting. I was alone with the person who had chaired the meeting. We were talking about my getting on the answering service. I couldn't understand how he thought I could help anyone, being about 30 days sober at the time. He put his arms around me and started kissing me. I got out of there with some excuse. I was really scared and never said anything to anyone. This guy was married and at the time, I thought he was " upstanding " . For some reason, he felt within his rights to do that and knew I wouldn't say or do anything about it??? Did I have " victim " on me somewhere, or was he just another predator who could sniff out an easy mark? It is of great concern to me that I am not the only one who has experienced an incident like that. There was a predator at another club in the same geographical area who blatantly victimized younger women with staggering regularity. NO ONE EVER SAID ANYTHING TO HIM. He's probably still doing it. AA is a very dangerous place for abused women, in my opinion and experience. john hollister wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8923 > You know what? The old " AA is about alcohol " is a > > convenient response used to shut up those members who open up about the > > pain that was inflicted on them, because this makes the people in the > > rooms who were the sort to inflict pain on others, relive their guilt. > > I have seen so many women shut up by Old Timers for even the slightest > > mention of incest or sexual abuse. > Apple > > Right On Apple! > Thank goodness I had the sense to ignore the bastards and deal with > my shit. You are so right about old timers censoring and intimidating > women who are trying to share valid pain. It serves two purposes. First > the old timer can avoid revisiting guilt over past transgressions. > Secondly, it makes the untreated survivor ripe for the picking. It's > about as sick as it gets. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 Which brings me to my current dilemna: I have rewritten the story for the Fransway book (for the hundredth time), and discuss this issue specifically. I talk about a predator, how he gave himself away as being a predator, and so on. Things he said, behavior that he exhibited. I've changed all the names in the story, but not the facts. Am I still setting myself up for trouble by doing this? In the story I talk about the fateful day I stood up in the middle of a meeting to share the truth, and how the predator started shaking uncontrollably. I've fantasized about going back to the meeting with book in hand, but people could figure out whom I was talking about since they were there when I got up & told my story! HELP! What should I do. I really want to expose the guy. Am I safe by simply changing his name and letting people " figure it out " ? Should I go back there and throw the book in the middle of the room and say " here's some rigorous honesty? " . I really want to, because this predator stuff is BULLSHIT! But I also want to be able to get away with it without getting killed. HELP!!! Apple wrose-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8925 > Let us not forget the " 13th Steppers " . > > I remember being very newly sober in the basement of a local club after > a meeting. I was alone with the person who had chaired the meeting. > We were talking about my getting on the answering service. I couldn't > understand how he thought I could help anyone, being about 30 days > sober at the time. > He put his arms around me and started kissing me. I got out of there > with some excuse. I was really scared and never said anything to > anyone. This guy was married and at the time, I thought he was > " upstanding " . For some reason, he felt within his rights to do that > and knew I wouldn't say or do anything about it??? Did I have " victim " > on me somewhere, or was he just another predator who could sniff out an > easy mark? > > It is of great concern to me that I am not the only one who has > experienced an incident like that. > > There was a predator at another club in the same geographical area who > blatantly victimized younger women with staggering regularity. NO ONE > EVER SAID ANYTHING TO HIM. He's probably still doing it. > > AA is a very dangerous place for abused women, in my opinion and > experience. > > > > john hollister wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8923 > > You know what? The old " AA is about alcohol " is a > > > convenient response used to shut up those members who open up about > the > > > pain that was inflicted on them, because this makes the people in > the > > > rooms who were the sort to inflict pain on others, relive their > guilt. > > > I have seen so many women shut up by Old Timers for even the > slightest > > > mention of incest or sexual abuse. > > Apple > > > > Right On Apple! > > Thank goodness I had the sense to ignore the bastards and deal > with > > my shit. You are so right about old timers censoring and intimidating > > women who are trying to share valid pain. It serves two purposes. > First > > the old timer can avoid revisiting guilt over past transgressions. > > Secondly, it makes the untreated survivor ripe for the picking. It's > > about as sick as it gets. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 Which brings me to my current dilemna: I have rewritten the story for the Fransway book (for the hundredth time), and discuss this issue specifically. I talk about a predator, how he gave himself away as being a predator, and so on. Things he said, behavior that he exhibited. I've changed all the names in the story, but not the facts. Am I still setting myself up for trouble by doing this? In the story I talk about the fateful day I stood up in the middle of a meeting to share the truth, and how the predator started shaking uncontrollably. I've fantasized about going back to the meeting with book in hand, but people could figure out whom I was talking about since they were there when I got up & told my story! HELP! What should I do. I really want to expose the guy. Am I safe by simply changing his name and letting people " figure it out " ? Should I go back there and throw the book in the middle of the room and say " here's some rigorous honesty? " . I really want to, because this predator stuff is BULLSHIT! But I also want to be able to get away with it without getting killed. HELP!!! Apple wrose-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8925 > Let us not forget the " 13th Steppers " . > > I remember being very newly sober in the basement of a local club after > a meeting. I was alone with the person who had chaired the meeting. > We were talking about my getting on the answering service. I couldn't > understand how he thought I could help anyone, being about 30 days > sober at the time. > He put his arms around me and started kissing me. I got out of there > with some excuse. I was really scared and never said anything to > anyone. This guy was married and at the time, I thought he was > " upstanding " . For some reason, he felt within his rights to do that > and knew I wouldn't say or do anything about it??? Did I have " victim " > on me somewhere, or was he just another predator who could sniff out an > easy mark? > > It is of great concern to me that I am not the only one who has > experienced an incident like that. > > There was a predator at another club in the same geographical area who > blatantly victimized younger women with staggering regularity. NO ONE > EVER SAID ANYTHING TO HIM. He's probably still doing it. > > AA is a very dangerous place for abused women, in my opinion and > experience. > > > > john hollister wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8923 > > You know what? The old " AA is about alcohol " is a > > > convenient response used to shut up those members who open up about > the > > > pain that was inflicted on them, because this makes the people in > the > > > rooms who were the sort to inflict pain on others, relive their > guilt. > > > I have seen so many women shut up by Old Timers for even the > slightest > > > mention of incest or sexual abuse. > > Apple > > > > Right On Apple! > > Thank goodness I had the sense to ignore the bastards and deal > with > > my shit. You are so right about old timers censoring and intimidating > > women who are trying to share valid pain. It serves two purposes. > First > > the old timer can avoid revisiting guilt over past transgressions. > > Secondly, it makes the untreated survivor ripe for the picking. It's > > about as sick as it gets. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 , You seem very taken with the 12 Steps. Being an exit counsellor for ex JW's and attending AA seems to me a bit contradictory unless of course you are just doing research into cultlike behavior. Perhaps your AA attendence is just an attempt to get a little of the hair of the dog(JW) that bit you. Psoftinfo@... wrote: > > In a message dated 99/10/29 9:32:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > railroadrita@... writes: > > > Could you please explain exactly how you feel AA *IS* about ending > > problematic alcohol use? > > I can't quite make sense of your sentence, I'm afraid. Are you asking > me what mechanism I think works (when it works)? I believe that depends > on the individual, which is why it peeves me to hear that AA in other areas > is so dogmatic. I think AA (or any group, besides the military) works > best when it's flexible. > > For some people, being around folks amongst whom there is a " culture > of non-drinking " is the most powerful force. For others, coming to terms > with some of their demons (4th through 10th steps) is helpful. For yet > others, " helping others " inoculates them with a powerful imperative to > NOT drink (12th step, as in " If I drink, I might take some people out > with me. " ). > > Then, too, there are individuals who do NOT want to " think for them- > selves " . The world is FULL of such people. These people can benefit > from a " higher power " . They WANT to be TOLD what to do. Such > people would NEVER join an email group such as this one. > > I believe that this kind of person ( " the follower " , you might say) can be > dangerous if he or she is allowed to be in a position of power. That's > because these people are not capable of defending their position by > reason or logic, and so they fall back onto totalitarian methods. > Such people do not CREATE cults, but they do doggedly perpetuate > them. > > > Before I ever entered an AA meeting, when I heard the phrase " 12 > > steps " , I thought they were a series of gradated reduction-in-use > > instructions. (Seriously!) > > I thought the same thing, more or less. This resulted in an amusing > exchange between me and the chairperson at my sixth meeting: > > Me: I'd like to join the group, but I don't know why you want the > date of my last drink. Isn't that a bit awkward? I mean, having to > change it all the time. > Chairperson (stunned): But ... ? You're supposed to TRY to stop > drinking! > Me: Oh! > > I didn't go to another meeting for two years after that. I was hoping > that AA would wean me off of alcohol slowly. I wasn't ready to go > " cold turkey " . (ly, at the time my drinking wasn't really causing > me serious problems, but I did know that it was becoming an issue.) > > It IS interesting that there isn't a step that reads: " Stop drinking " . > Logically, you'd think there should be. Maybe after Step 2. > > > But NOTHING in the actual 12 steps is about reducing or > > eliminating drinking. The Steps, it would seem, are 100% about > > *things other than alcohol*. > > I think the AA theory is that people drink for a REASON. They try > to deal with the underlying issue. However (as you have pointed > out), the " AA way " is derived from the " Oxford Group way " , so it > tends to be moralistic. The problem with that is that in many cases > there's nothing terribly wrong with the person's morals. > > When I did my 4th step, I had very little to write. I just wasn't all > that bad. When it came time for " amends " , I really had to dig to > think up stuff. (Still, the process of talking about those few items > made a HUGE difference in my life. For that, I'm glad for what > AA did for me. I'm no longer obsessed with hiding my frailties.) > > > ... for many (particularly clinically depressed people, and rape or > > other crime victims) they Steps are actually seriously harmful. > > The steps themselves, or the way they're interpreted (and " enforced " ) > by a particular group? I don't see anything harmful about the steps > per se. Can you give me an example of a step that would hurt > somebody if it was followed literally? > > > As far as people speaking in slogans ( Kaminer, in " I'm > > Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional " , calls them " talking fortune > > cookies " ) > > Heh heh. That's a good one! > > > this is a direct throwback to Oxford Group teaching that > > intellectualism and individuality are " dangerous " things > > which drive people away from God ... > > It's not just the Oxford Group that says that. Even Humanist groups > discuss " The limits of science and logic " . Why else would Skeptic > magazine (which I read, ahem, religiously) devote so much space to > that kind of question? > > Having said that, I think that although we might recognize that logic > has its limits, we should not dispense with it. It is a useful tool. > True, some people (like me, for instance) let it become our master > at times, but most people aren't in much danger of THAT happening. > (Boy, do I sound smug. Sorry.) > > > The idiotic [slogans] ... are simply saying, " Shut up and stop > > thinking so much. " > > When I first started in AA, I was instructed " Don't think; don't drink; > go to meetings " . Don't THINK!? I had a tough time with that, but I > did what I was told (meekly) and got a lot out of the experience. > > The dogmatic AA's, of course, would extend this to " Don't EVER > think " . That is insane. One of the things about AA that really bothers > me is that there is NO provision for " old-timers " to have " advanced " > meetings. Everybody is always kept at the level of the newcomer, > and this idea permeates the thinking in AA. Thus, you'll get a guy > who hasn't touched a drop in 25 years say, " I'm only one drink away > from where I was before " . Yeah, sure, fine. Point taken. But when > are you going to MOVE ON? > > I think that a lot of old-timers drift away from AA because they get > tired of being treated like children. That's why I drifted away after > four years of sobriety. Oh, there was some fulfilment in the 12th > step stuff, but I felt like I was stuck in kindergarten. There's only > so much of that I can take. > > I find most AA meetings extremely boring, just as I'd be bored if I > was forced to sit through a kindergarten class. > > > A while back I posted a tongue-in-cheek piece about the " Star Trek > > Cure " for problem drinking ... > > You are referring to something known as " Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc " , > a famous logical fallacy. For example, if I stop drinking the day after > I start eating bananas, I might attribute my success to bananas. It > is, however, more likely that the bananas were simply an example of > my search for abstinence. In other words, the process was already > underway. > > >You have all the anecdotal evidence you need for a Star Trek Big > > Book that the Star Trek Cure *Works if you Work It!* > > If a certain KIND of person joined a Star Trek club and starting hanging > out almost daily with Trekkies (who aren't, to my knowledge, big > drinkers), the social environment WOULD help him moderate his > drinking PROVIDED HE WAS ENTHUSIASTIC ENOUGH ABOUT > STAR TREK. In other words, it wouldn't work for him unless he > thought Star Trek was " important " . > > Eventually, of course, you'd see the birth of email groups named > " Star-Trek-Free " . > > - > http://users.aol.com/beyondjw > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Essential Feynman Library for $7.99! A $96.65 > value of 3 books+6 audio tape set. Learn > physics from Feynman renown for making > complex ideas easy. Order NOW at Library > of Science http://clickhere./click/1370 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 , You seem very taken with the 12 Steps. Being an exit counsellor for ex JW's and attending AA seems to me a bit contradictory unless of course you are just doing research into cultlike behavior. Perhaps your AA attendence is just an attempt to get a little of the hair of the dog(JW) that bit you. Psoftinfo@... wrote: > > In a message dated 99/10/29 9:32:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > railroadrita@... writes: > > > Could you please explain exactly how you feel AA *IS* about ending > > problematic alcohol use? > > I can't quite make sense of your sentence, I'm afraid. Are you asking > me what mechanism I think works (when it works)? I believe that depends > on the individual, which is why it peeves me to hear that AA in other areas > is so dogmatic. I think AA (or any group, besides the military) works > best when it's flexible. > > For some people, being around folks amongst whom there is a " culture > of non-drinking " is the most powerful force. For others, coming to terms > with some of their demons (4th through 10th steps) is helpful. For yet > others, " helping others " inoculates them with a powerful imperative to > NOT drink (12th step, as in " If I drink, I might take some people out > with me. " ). > > Then, too, there are individuals who do NOT want to " think for them- > selves " . The world is FULL of such people. These people can benefit > from a " higher power " . They WANT to be TOLD what to do. Such > people would NEVER join an email group such as this one. > > I believe that this kind of person ( " the follower " , you might say) can be > dangerous if he or she is allowed to be in a position of power. That's > because these people are not capable of defending their position by > reason or logic, and so they fall back onto totalitarian methods. > Such people do not CREATE cults, but they do doggedly perpetuate > them. > > > Before I ever entered an AA meeting, when I heard the phrase " 12 > > steps " , I thought they were a series of gradated reduction-in-use > > instructions. (Seriously!) > > I thought the same thing, more or less. This resulted in an amusing > exchange between me and the chairperson at my sixth meeting: > > Me: I'd like to join the group, but I don't know why you want the > date of my last drink. Isn't that a bit awkward? I mean, having to > change it all the time. > Chairperson (stunned): But ... ? You're supposed to TRY to stop > drinking! > Me: Oh! > > I didn't go to another meeting for two years after that. I was hoping > that AA would wean me off of alcohol slowly. I wasn't ready to go > " cold turkey " . (ly, at the time my drinking wasn't really causing > me serious problems, but I did know that it was becoming an issue.) > > It IS interesting that there isn't a step that reads: " Stop drinking " . > Logically, you'd think there should be. Maybe after Step 2. > > > But NOTHING in the actual 12 steps is about reducing or > > eliminating drinking. The Steps, it would seem, are 100% about > > *things other than alcohol*. > > I think the AA theory is that people drink for a REASON. They try > to deal with the underlying issue. However (as you have pointed > out), the " AA way " is derived from the " Oxford Group way " , so it > tends to be moralistic. The problem with that is that in many cases > there's nothing terribly wrong with the person's morals. > > When I did my 4th step, I had very little to write. I just wasn't all > that bad. When it came time for " amends " , I really had to dig to > think up stuff. (Still, the process of talking about those few items > made a HUGE difference in my life. For that, I'm glad for what > AA did for me. I'm no longer obsessed with hiding my frailties.) > > > ... for many (particularly clinically depressed people, and rape or > > other crime victims) they Steps are actually seriously harmful. > > The steps themselves, or the way they're interpreted (and " enforced " ) > by a particular group? I don't see anything harmful about the steps > per se. Can you give me an example of a step that would hurt > somebody if it was followed literally? > > > As far as people speaking in slogans ( Kaminer, in " I'm > > Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional " , calls them " talking fortune > > cookies " ) > > Heh heh. That's a good one! > > > this is a direct throwback to Oxford Group teaching that > > intellectualism and individuality are " dangerous " things > > which drive people away from God ... > > It's not just the Oxford Group that says that. Even Humanist groups > discuss " The limits of science and logic " . Why else would Skeptic > magazine (which I read, ahem, religiously) devote so much space to > that kind of question? > > Having said that, I think that although we might recognize that logic > has its limits, we should not dispense with it. It is a useful tool. > True, some people (like me, for instance) let it become our master > at times, but most people aren't in much danger of THAT happening. > (Boy, do I sound smug. Sorry.) > > > The idiotic [slogans] ... are simply saying, " Shut up and stop > > thinking so much. " > > When I first started in AA, I was instructed " Don't think; don't drink; > go to meetings " . Don't THINK!? I had a tough time with that, but I > did what I was told (meekly) and got a lot out of the experience. > > The dogmatic AA's, of course, would extend this to " Don't EVER > think " . That is insane. One of the things about AA that really bothers > me is that there is NO provision for " old-timers " to have " advanced " > meetings. Everybody is always kept at the level of the newcomer, > and this idea permeates the thinking in AA. Thus, you'll get a guy > who hasn't touched a drop in 25 years say, " I'm only one drink away > from where I was before " . Yeah, sure, fine. Point taken. But when > are you going to MOVE ON? > > I think that a lot of old-timers drift away from AA because they get > tired of being treated like children. That's why I drifted away after > four years of sobriety. Oh, there was some fulfilment in the 12th > step stuff, but I felt like I was stuck in kindergarten. There's only > so much of that I can take. > > I find most AA meetings extremely boring, just as I'd be bored if I > was forced to sit through a kindergarten class. > > > A while back I posted a tongue-in-cheek piece about the " Star Trek > > Cure " for problem drinking ... > > You are referring to something known as " Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc " , > a famous logical fallacy. For example, if I stop drinking the day after > I start eating bananas, I might attribute my success to bananas. It > is, however, more likely that the bananas were simply an example of > my search for abstinence. In other words, the process was already > underway. > > >You have all the anecdotal evidence you need for a Star Trek Big > > Book that the Star Trek Cure *Works if you Work It!* > > If a certain KIND of person joined a Star Trek club and starting hanging > out almost daily with Trekkies (who aren't, to my knowledge, big > drinkers), the social environment WOULD help him moderate his > drinking PROVIDED HE WAS ENTHUSIASTIC ENOUGH ABOUT > STAR TREK. In other words, it wouldn't work for him unless he > thought Star Trek was " important " . > > Eventually, of course, you'd see the birth of email groups named > " Star-Trek-Free " . > > - > http://users.aol.com/beyondjw > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Essential Feynman Library for $7.99! A $96.65 > value of 3 books+6 audio tape set. Learn > physics from Feynman renown for making > complex ideas easy. Order NOW at Library > of Science http://clickhere./click/1370 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 , You seem very taken with the 12 Steps. Being an exit counsellor for ex JW's and attending AA seems to me a bit contradictory unless of course you are just doing research into cultlike behavior. Perhaps your AA attendence is just an attempt to get a little of the hair of the dog(JW) that bit you. Psoftinfo@... wrote: > > In a message dated 99/10/29 9:32:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > railroadrita@... writes: > > > Could you please explain exactly how you feel AA *IS* about ending > > problematic alcohol use? > > I can't quite make sense of your sentence, I'm afraid. Are you asking > me what mechanism I think works (when it works)? I believe that depends > on the individual, which is why it peeves me to hear that AA in other areas > is so dogmatic. I think AA (or any group, besides the military) works > best when it's flexible. > > For some people, being around folks amongst whom there is a " culture > of non-drinking " is the most powerful force. For others, coming to terms > with some of their demons (4th through 10th steps) is helpful. For yet > others, " helping others " inoculates them with a powerful imperative to > NOT drink (12th step, as in " If I drink, I might take some people out > with me. " ). > > Then, too, there are individuals who do NOT want to " think for them- > selves " . The world is FULL of such people. These people can benefit > from a " higher power " . They WANT to be TOLD what to do. Such > people would NEVER join an email group such as this one. > > I believe that this kind of person ( " the follower " , you might say) can be > dangerous if he or she is allowed to be in a position of power. That's > because these people are not capable of defending their position by > reason or logic, and so they fall back onto totalitarian methods. > Such people do not CREATE cults, but they do doggedly perpetuate > them. > > > Before I ever entered an AA meeting, when I heard the phrase " 12 > > steps " , I thought they were a series of gradated reduction-in-use > > instructions. (Seriously!) > > I thought the same thing, more or less. This resulted in an amusing > exchange between me and the chairperson at my sixth meeting: > > Me: I'd like to join the group, but I don't know why you want the > date of my last drink. Isn't that a bit awkward? I mean, having to > change it all the time. > Chairperson (stunned): But ... ? You're supposed to TRY to stop > drinking! > Me: Oh! > > I didn't go to another meeting for two years after that. I was hoping > that AA would wean me off of alcohol slowly. I wasn't ready to go > " cold turkey " . (ly, at the time my drinking wasn't really causing > me serious problems, but I did know that it was becoming an issue.) > > It IS interesting that there isn't a step that reads: " Stop drinking " . > Logically, you'd think there should be. Maybe after Step 2. > > > But NOTHING in the actual 12 steps is about reducing or > > eliminating drinking. The Steps, it would seem, are 100% about > > *things other than alcohol*. > > I think the AA theory is that people drink for a REASON. They try > to deal with the underlying issue. However (as you have pointed > out), the " AA way " is derived from the " Oxford Group way " , so it > tends to be moralistic. The problem with that is that in many cases > there's nothing terribly wrong with the person's morals. > > When I did my 4th step, I had very little to write. I just wasn't all > that bad. When it came time for " amends " , I really had to dig to > think up stuff. (Still, the process of talking about those few items > made a HUGE difference in my life. For that, I'm glad for what > AA did for me. I'm no longer obsessed with hiding my frailties.) > > > ... for many (particularly clinically depressed people, and rape or > > other crime victims) they Steps are actually seriously harmful. > > The steps themselves, or the way they're interpreted (and " enforced " ) > by a particular group? I don't see anything harmful about the steps > per se. Can you give me an example of a step that would hurt > somebody if it was followed literally? > > > As far as people speaking in slogans ( Kaminer, in " I'm > > Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional " , calls them " talking fortune > > cookies " ) > > Heh heh. That's a good one! > > > this is a direct throwback to Oxford Group teaching that > > intellectualism and individuality are " dangerous " things > > which drive people away from God ... > > It's not just the Oxford Group that says that. Even Humanist groups > discuss " The limits of science and logic " . Why else would Skeptic > magazine (which I read, ahem, religiously) devote so much space to > that kind of question? > > Having said that, I think that although we might recognize that logic > has its limits, we should not dispense with it. It is a useful tool. > True, some people (like me, for instance) let it become our master > at times, but most people aren't in much danger of THAT happening. > (Boy, do I sound smug. Sorry.) > > > The idiotic [slogans] ... are simply saying, " Shut up and stop > > thinking so much. " > > When I first started in AA, I was instructed " Don't think; don't drink; > go to meetings " . Don't THINK!? I had a tough time with that, but I > did what I was told (meekly) and got a lot out of the experience. > > The dogmatic AA's, of course, would extend this to " Don't EVER > think " . That is insane. One of the things about AA that really bothers > me is that there is NO provision for " old-timers " to have " advanced " > meetings. Everybody is always kept at the level of the newcomer, > and this idea permeates the thinking in AA. Thus, you'll get a guy > who hasn't touched a drop in 25 years say, " I'm only one drink away > from where I was before " . Yeah, sure, fine. Point taken. But when > are you going to MOVE ON? > > I think that a lot of old-timers drift away from AA because they get > tired of being treated like children. That's why I drifted away after > four years of sobriety. Oh, there was some fulfilment in the 12th > step stuff, but I felt like I was stuck in kindergarten. There's only > so much of that I can take. > > I find most AA meetings extremely boring, just as I'd be bored if I > was forced to sit through a kindergarten class. > > > A while back I posted a tongue-in-cheek piece about the " Star Trek > > Cure " for problem drinking ... > > You are referring to something known as " Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc " , > a famous logical fallacy. For example, if I stop drinking the day after > I start eating bananas, I might attribute my success to bananas. It > is, however, more likely that the bananas were simply an example of > my search for abstinence. In other words, the process was already > underway. > > >You have all the anecdotal evidence you need for a Star Trek Big > > Book that the Star Trek Cure *Works if you Work It!* > > If a certain KIND of person joined a Star Trek club and starting hanging > out almost daily with Trekkies (who aren't, to my knowledge, big > drinkers), the social environment WOULD help him moderate his > drinking PROVIDED HE WAS ENTHUSIASTIC ENOUGH ABOUT > STAR TREK. In other words, it wouldn't work for him unless he > thought Star Trek was " important " . > > Eventually, of course, you'd see the birth of email groups named > " Star-Trek-Free " . > > - > http://users.aol.com/beyondjw > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Essential Feynman Library for $7.99! A $96.65 > value of 3 books+6 audio tape set. Learn > physics from Feynman renown for making > complex ideas easy. Order NOW at Library > of Science http://clickhere./click/1370 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 Apple, I am submitting several stories and don't give a damn if they figure it out or not. The truth needs to get out. I do send your website address to others still mired in AA. Sometimes it's just out of our control and all we can do is save outselves. I REALLY hate saying that, but you NEED to get that message out. If it takes writing several stories for 's book, so be it. Do what you feel you need to do. There are restraining orders and so forth, if you wanted to go back there. I would hate to think of you putting yourself in a situation like that, but on the other hand, think of the strength you would gain inside yourself. I think you are the only one who can scope out the situation and deal accordingly. All my very best. I have much admiration for you and all the efforts you have immersed yourself in. Love, appledt-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8926 > Which brings me to my current dilemna: > I have rewritten the story for the Fransway book (for the hundredth > time), and discuss this issue specifically. I talk about a predator, > how he gave himself away as being a predator, and so on. Things he > said, behavior that he exhibited. I've changed all the names in the > story, but not the facts. Am I still setting myself up for trouble by > doing this? In the story I talk about the fateful day I stood up in > the middle of a meeting to share the truth, and how the predator > started shaking uncontrollably. I've fantasized about going back to the > meeting with book in hand, but people could figure out whom I was > talking about since they were there when I got up & told my story! > HELP! What should I do. I really want to expose the guy. Am I safe by > simply changing his name and letting people " figure it out " ? Should I > go back there and throw the book in the middle of the room and say > " here's some rigorous honesty? " . I really want to, because this > predator stuff is BULLSHIT! But I also want to be able to get away > with it without getting killed. > > HELP!!! > > Apple > > > wrose-@... wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8925 > > Let us not forget the " 13th Steppers " . > > > > I remember being very newly sober in the basement of a local club > after > > a meeting. I was alone with the person who had chaired the meeting. > > We were talking about my getting on the answering service. I couldn't > > understand how he thought I could help anyone, being about 30 days > > sober at the time. > > He put his arms around me and started kissing me. I got out of there > > with some excuse. I was really scared and never said anything to > > anyone. This guy was married and at the time, I thought he was > > " upstanding " . For some reason, he felt within his rights to do that > > and knew I wouldn't say or do anything about it??? Did I have > " victim " > > on me somewhere, or was he just another predator who could sniff out > an > > easy mark? > > > > It is of great concern to me that I am not the only one who has > > experienced an incident like that. > > > > There was a predator at another club in the same geographical area who > > blatantly victimized younger women with staggering regularity. NO ONE > > EVER SAID ANYTHING TO HIM. He's probably still doing it. > > > > AA is a very dangerous place for abused women, in my opinion and > > experience. > > > > > > > > john hollister wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 923 > > > You know what? The old " AA is about alcohol " is a > > > > convenient response used to shut up those members who open up > about > > the > > > > pain that was inflicted on them, because this makes the people in > > the > > > > rooms who were the sort to inflict pain on others, relive their > > guilt. > > > > I have seen so many women shut up by Old Timers for even the > > slightest > > > > mention of incest or sexual abuse. > > > Apple > > > > > > Right On Apple! > > > Thank goodness I had the sense to ignore the bastards and deal > > with > > > my shit. You are so right about old timers censoring and > intimidating > > > women who are trying to share valid pain. It serves two purposes. > > First > > > the old timer can avoid revisiting guilt over past transgressions. > > > Secondly, it makes the untreated survivor ripe for the picking. It's > > > about as sick as it gets. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 Apple, I am submitting several stories and don't give a damn if they figure it out or not. The truth needs to get out. I do send your website address to others still mired in AA. Sometimes it's just out of our control and all we can do is save outselves. I REALLY hate saying that, but you NEED to get that message out. If it takes writing several stories for 's book, so be it. Do what you feel you need to do. There are restraining orders and so forth, if you wanted to go back there. I would hate to think of you putting yourself in a situation like that, but on the other hand, think of the strength you would gain inside yourself. I think you are the only one who can scope out the situation and deal accordingly. All my very best. I have much admiration for you and all the efforts you have immersed yourself in. Love, appledt-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8926 > Which brings me to my current dilemna: > I have rewritten the story for the Fransway book (for the hundredth > time), and discuss this issue specifically. I talk about a predator, > how he gave himself away as being a predator, and so on. Things he > said, behavior that he exhibited. I've changed all the names in the > story, but not the facts. Am I still setting myself up for trouble by > doing this? In the story I talk about the fateful day I stood up in > the middle of a meeting to share the truth, and how the predator > started shaking uncontrollably. I've fantasized about going back to the > meeting with book in hand, but people could figure out whom I was > talking about since they were there when I got up & told my story! > HELP! What should I do. I really want to expose the guy. Am I safe by > simply changing his name and letting people " figure it out " ? Should I > go back there and throw the book in the middle of the room and say > " here's some rigorous honesty? " . I really want to, because this > predator stuff is BULLSHIT! But I also want to be able to get away > with it without getting killed. > > HELP!!! > > Apple > > > wrose-@... wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8925 > > Let us not forget the " 13th Steppers " . > > > > I remember being very newly sober in the basement of a local club > after > > a meeting. I was alone with the person who had chaired the meeting. > > We were talking about my getting on the answering service. I couldn't > > understand how he thought I could help anyone, being about 30 days > > sober at the time. > > He put his arms around me and started kissing me. I got out of there > > with some excuse. I was really scared and never said anything to > > anyone. This guy was married and at the time, I thought he was > > " upstanding " . For some reason, he felt within his rights to do that > > and knew I wouldn't say or do anything about it??? Did I have > " victim " > > on me somewhere, or was he just another predator who could sniff out > an > > easy mark? > > > > It is of great concern to me that I am not the only one who has > > experienced an incident like that. > > > > There was a predator at another club in the same geographical area who > > blatantly victimized younger women with staggering regularity. NO ONE > > EVER SAID ANYTHING TO HIM. He's probably still doing it. > > > > AA is a very dangerous place for abused women, in my opinion and > > experience. > > > > > > > > john hollister wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 923 > > > You know what? The old " AA is about alcohol " is a > > > > convenient response used to shut up those members who open up > about > > the > > > > pain that was inflicted on them, because this makes the people in > > the > > > > rooms who were the sort to inflict pain on others, relive their > > guilt. > > > > I have seen so many women shut up by Old Timers for even the > > slightest > > > > mention of incest or sexual abuse. > > > Apple > > > > > > Right On Apple! > > > Thank goodness I had the sense to ignore the bastards and deal > > with > > > my shit. You are so right about old timers censoring and > intimidating > > > women who are trying to share valid pain. It serves two purposes. > > First > > > the old timer can avoid revisiting guilt over past transgressions. > > > Secondly, it makes the untreated survivor ripe for the picking. It's > > > about as sick as it gets. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 Hi Apple, I find myself in a dilemma trying to figure out what to tell you. On the one hand I want you to get satisfaction. On the other, I want you to stay safe and avoid retribution. A copy definitely needs to be sent to AA's main office. Perhaps leaving a copy in a bag, hanging on the clubhouse door addressed to the meeting secretary with an appropriately placed bookmark might do the trick. I still worry about recriminations from Mr.Scumbo. I'll have to chew on this further. appledtp@... wrote: > > Which brings me to my current dilemna: > I have rewritten the story for the Fransway book (for the hundredth > time), and discuss this issue specifically. I talk about a predator, > how he gave himself away as being a predator, and so on. Things he > said, behavior that he exhibited. I've changed all the names in the > story, but not the facts. Am I still setting myself up for trouble by > doing this? In the story I talk about the fateful day I stood up in > the middle of a meeting to share the truth, and how the predator > started shaking uncontrollably. I've fantasized about going back to the > meeting with book in hand, but people could figure out whom I was > talking about since they were there when I got up & told my story! > HELP! What should I do. I really want to expose the guy. Am I safe by > simply changing his name and letting people " figure it out " ? Should I > go back there and throw the book in the middle of the room and say > " here's some rigorous honesty? " . I really want to, because this > predator stuff is BULLSHIT! But I also want to be able to get away > with it without getting killed. > > HELP!!! > > Apple > > wrose-@... wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8925 > > Let us not forget the " 13th Steppers " . > > > > I remember being very newly sober in the basement of a local club > after > > a meeting. I was alone with the person who had chaired the meeting. > > We were talking about my getting on the answering service. I couldn't > > understand how he thought I could help anyone, being about 30 days > > sober at the time. > > He put his arms around me and started kissing me. I got out of there > > with some excuse. I was really scared and never said anything to > > anyone. This guy was married and at the time, I thought he was > > " upstanding " . For some reason, he felt within his rights to do that > > and knew I wouldn't say or do anything about it??? Did I have > " victim " > > on me somewhere, or was he just another predator who could sniff out > an > > easy mark? > > > > It is of great concern to me that I am not the only one who has > > experienced an incident like that. > > > > There was a predator at another club in the same geographical area who > > blatantly victimized younger women with staggering regularity. NO ONE > > EVER SAID ANYTHING TO HIM. He's probably still doing it. > > > > AA is a very dangerous place for abused women, in my opinion and > > experience. > > > > > > > > john hollister wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8923 > > > You know what? The old " AA is about alcohol " is a > > > > convenient response used to shut up those members who open up > about > > the > > > > pain that was inflicted on them, because this makes the people in > > the > > > > rooms who were the sort to inflict pain on others, relive their > > guilt. > > > > I have seen so many women shut up by Old Timers for even the > > slightest > > > > mention of incest or sexual abuse. > > > Apple > > > > > > Right On Apple! > > > Thank goodness I had the sense to ignore the bastards and deal > > with > > > my shit. You are so right about old timers censoring and > intimidating > > > women who are trying to share valid pain. It serves two purposes. > > First > > > the old timer can avoid revisiting guilt over past transgressions. > > > Secondly, it makes the untreated survivor ripe for the picking. It's > > > about as sick as it gets. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click on Instant Credit Card Approval at > http://clickhere./click/1274 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 Hi Apple, I find myself in a dilemma trying to figure out what to tell you. On the one hand I want you to get satisfaction. On the other, I want you to stay safe and avoid retribution. A copy definitely needs to be sent to AA's main office. Perhaps leaving a copy in a bag, hanging on the clubhouse door addressed to the meeting secretary with an appropriately placed bookmark might do the trick. I still worry about recriminations from Mr.Scumbo. I'll have to chew on this further. appledtp@... wrote: > > Which brings me to my current dilemna: > I have rewritten the story for the Fransway book (for the hundredth > time), and discuss this issue specifically. I talk about a predator, > how he gave himself away as being a predator, and so on. Things he > said, behavior that he exhibited. I've changed all the names in the > story, but not the facts. Am I still setting myself up for trouble by > doing this? In the story I talk about the fateful day I stood up in > the middle of a meeting to share the truth, and how the predator > started shaking uncontrollably. I've fantasized about going back to the > meeting with book in hand, but people could figure out whom I was > talking about since they were there when I got up & told my story! > HELP! What should I do. I really want to expose the guy. Am I safe by > simply changing his name and letting people " figure it out " ? Should I > go back there and throw the book in the middle of the room and say > " here's some rigorous honesty? " . I really want to, because this > predator stuff is BULLSHIT! But I also want to be able to get away > with it without getting killed. > > HELP!!! > > Apple > > wrose-@... wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8925 > > Let us not forget the " 13th Steppers " . > > > > I remember being very newly sober in the basement of a local club > after > > a meeting. I was alone with the person who had chaired the meeting. > > We were talking about my getting on the answering service. I couldn't > > understand how he thought I could help anyone, being about 30 days > > sober at the time. > > He put his arms around me and started kissing me. I got out of there > > with some excuse. I was really scared and never said anything to > > anyone. This guy was married and at the time, I thought he was > > " upstanding " . For some reason, he felt within his rights to do that > > and knew I wouldn't say or do anything about it??? Did I have > " victim " > > on me somewhere, or was he just another predator who could sniff out > an > > easy mark? > > > > It is of great concern to me that I am not the only one who has > > experienced an incident like that. > > > > There was a predator at another club in the same geographical area who > > blatantly victimized younger women with staggering regularity. NO ONE > > EVER SAID ANYTHING TO HIM. He's probably still doing it. > > > > AA is a very dangerous place for abused women, in my opinion and > > experience. > > > > > > > > john hollister wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8923 > > > You know what? The old " AA is about alcohol " is a > > > > convenient response used to shut up those members who open up > about > > the > > > > pain that was inflicted on them, because this makes the people in > > the > > > > rooms who were the sort to inflict pain on others, relive their > > guilt. > > > > I have seen so many women shut up by Old Timers for even the > > slightest > > > > mention of incest or sexual abuse. > > > Apple > > > > > > Right On Apple! > > > Thank goodness I had the sense to ignore the bastards and deal > > with > > > my shit. You are so right about old timers censoring and > intimidating > > > women who are trying to share valid pain. It serves two purposes. > > First > > > the old timer can avoid revisiting guilt over past transgressions. > > > Secondly, it makes the untreated survivor ripe for the picking. It's > > > about as sick as it gets. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click on Instant Credit Card Approval at > http://clickhere./click/1274 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 I had even thought about moving away, and literally having my U-Haul parked outside of the meeting (running & ready) so I could make a quick getaway after I expose the creep. I have another idea too, but I'll e-mail you privately about that. Apple > Hi Apple, > I find myself in a dilemma trying to figure out what to tell you. On the > one hand I want you to get satisfaction. On the other, I want you to > stay safe and avoid retribution. A copy definitely needs to be sent to > AA's main office. Perhaps leaving a copy in a bag, hanging on the > clubhouse door addressed to the meeting secretary with an appropriately > placed bookmark might do the trick. I still worry about recriminations > from Mr.Scumbo. I'll have to chew on this further. > > > appledtp@... wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 I had even thought about moving away, and literally having my U-Haul parked outside of the meeting (running & ready) so I could make a quick getaway after I expose the creep. I have another idea too, but I'll e-mail you privately about that. Apple > Hi Apple, > I find myself in a dilemma trying to figure out what to tell you. On the > one hand I want you to get satisfaction. On the other, I want you to > stay safe and avoid retribution. A copy definitely needs to be sent to > AA's main office. Perhaps leaving a copy in a bag, hanging on the > clubhouse door addressed to the meeting secretary with an appropriately > placed bookmark might do the trick. I still worry about recriminations > from Mr.Scumbo. I'll have to chew on this further. > > > appledtp@... wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 I had even thought about moving away, and literally having my U-Haul parked outside of the meeting (running & ready) so I could make a quick getaway after I expose the creep. I have another idea too, but I'll e-mail you privately about that. Apple > Hi Apple, > I find myself in a dilemma trying to figure out what to tell you. On the > one hand I want you to get satisfaction. On the other, I want you to > stay safe and avoid retribution. A copy definitely needs to be sent to > AA's main office. Perhaps leaving a copy in a bag, hanging on the > clubhouse door addressed to the meeting secretary with an appropriately > placed bookmark might do the trick. I still worry about recriminations > from Mr.Scumbo. I'll have to chew on this further. > > > appledtp@... wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 At 01:59 PM 29/10/99 -0700, you wrote: >I had even thought about moving away, and literally having my U-Haul >parked outside of the meeting (running & ready) so I could make a quick >getaway after I expose the creep. I have another idea too, but I'll >e-mail you privately about that. >Apple Its interesting. Like I've got mixed feelings about this idea- on the one hand I think you should try to stay safe, but the idea of exposing rapists and abusers in 12 step groups is very appealing. Especially also if it got into the newspapers or onto tv. Just think- imagine if the idea that 12 step absusers lurking in meetings to prey on vulnerable people becomes widely known and discussed. That could change things a lot. JB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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