Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 In a message dated 99/10/28 14:41:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anachro1@... writes: > is there any room on this board to discuss > ideas on living life sober that would benefit those members interested > in doing so? That's what I'm hoping! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 In a message dated 99/10/28 14:41:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anachro1@... writes: > is there any room on this board to discuss > ideas on living life sober that would benefit those members interested > in doing so? That's what I'm hoping! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 , You are not alone in your thinking. I was in AA for 15 years. It kept me alive and sober. There was damage to me as a result of some of the beliefs and teachings of AA because I am a survivor. I benefitted from some of AA, but in the overall picture, I suffered needlessly. I believe that AA is A WAY for some, but it is not for everyone. Those who would judge you here do not support what this group represents. Which is how to live without AA, as you said. I have been able to breathe and feel less guilt and shame since walking away three years ago. I changed my whole life - as was suggested when I entered AA. I have new friends, new lifestyle, etc. I devote more time to my family and home. My interest are widening and becoming more diverse. Life feels freer. It has been more of a change in my thinking than anything I'm doing. Best, anachro-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8863 > Okay; so here's where I hopefully don't make myself unpopular. > I did est in 1973, and what I got was invaluable to me. I learned how to > NOT take life or myself so seriously. As with most disciplines, I took > what I needed and tossed out the rest. > While I appreciate the importance of criticizing the XA programs, a > fact that I > too am guilty of doing, is there any room on this board to discuss > ideas on living life sober that would benefit those members interested > in doing so? > It has been my experience that for the past eight years I have not > given AA > or it's members a second thought, and have become intrigued with the > idea > of meeting others like myself who can stay sober without setting foot > in a > meeting. > Is there life beyond AA? I sure would like to think so, and hope to > hear from > others who share this point of view. > /San Francisco > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 No Problem, . I have enjoyed your posts. I got a lot out of the Forum as well, then I got the hell out. I agree with you and our nameless friend from Canada.Bashing AA can become as hackneyed as the program itself, but this site provides a valuable service to those reentering the Earths atmosphere after years of floating in the AA ether. The validation and support of the people on this site has helped me immeasurably and I am most grateful to them. Everyone has different ways of coping. For some, just not burning down AA clubhouses is a major accomplishment. Fortunates like yourself don't really give AA a second thought, and I think that is an important thing to read as well as valuable concept to aspire to. I am extreme and opinionated in my disdain for AA, but I also sincerely want to Fuggedaboudit and move on. Tell us how you managed to lighten up, but don't expect that everyone on the list is going to be on the same page. Just share and encourage the kind of posts you want to read. The list can always use a fresh angle and needn't become mired in endless AA bashing. By the way, I have met a couple of people on the list in my travels, and I'll probably be in San Francisco in April with my girlfriend. Perhaps we can hook up. Love that city. Have you been to Beach Blanket Babylon? Later, anachro1@... wrote: > > Okay; so here's where I hopefully don't make myself unpopular. > I did est in 1973, and what I got was invaluable to me. I learned how to > NOT take life or myself so seriously. As with most disciplines, I took > what I needed and tossed out the rest. > While I appreciate the importance of criticizing the XA programs, a > fact that I > too am guilty of doing, is there any room on this board to discuss > ideas on living life sober that would benefit those members interested > in doing so? > It has been my experience that for the past eight years I have not > given AA > or it's members a second thought, and have become intrigued with the > idea > of meeting others like myself who can stay sober without setting foot > in a > meeting. > Is there life beyond AA? I sure would like to think so, and hope to > hear from > others who share this point of view. > /San Francisco > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Great books for the discriminating readers. From the > classics to the contemporaries choose any 3 books > for $1.99 each & get 1 FREE when you join Readers’ > Subscription books club http://clickhere./click/1365 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 No Problem, . I have enjoyed your posts. I got a lot out of the Forum as well, then I got the hell out. I agree with you and our nameless friend from Canada.Bashing AA can become as hackneyed as the program itself, but this site provides a valuable service to those reentering the Earths atmosphere after years of floating in the AA ether. The validation and support of the people on this site has helped me immeasurably and I am most grateful to them. Everyone has different ways of coping. For some, just not burning down AA clubhouses is a major accomplishment. Fortunates like yourself don't really give AA a second thought, and I think that is an important thing to read as well as valuable concept to aspire to. I am extreme and opinionated in my disdain for AA, but I also sincerely want to Fuggedaboudit and move on. Tell us how you managed to lighten up, but don't expect that everyone on the list is going to be on the same page. Just share and encourage the kind of posts you want to read. The list can always use a fresh angle and needn't become mired in endless AA bashing. By the way, I have met a couple of people on the list in my travels, and I'll probably be in San Francisco in April with my girlfriend. Perhaps we can hook up. Love that city. Have you been to Beach Blanket Babylon? Later, anachro1@... wrote: > > Okay; so here's where I hopefully don't make myself unpopular. > I did est in 1973, and what I got was invaluable to me. I learned how to > NOT take life or myself so seriously. As with most disciplines, I took > what I needed and tossed out the rest. > While I appreciate the importance of criticizing the XA programs, a > fact that I > too am guilty of doing, is there any room on this board to discuss > ideas on living life sober that would benefit those members interested > in doing so? > It has been my experience that for the past eight years I have not > given AA > or it's members a second thought, and have become intrigued with the > idea > of meeting others like myself who can stay sober without setting foot > in a > meeting. > Is there life beyond AA? I sure would like to think so, and hope to > hear from > others who share this point of view. > /San Francisco > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Great books for the discriminating readers. From the > classics to the contemporaries choose any 3 books > for $1.99 each & get 1 FREE when you join Readers’ > Subscription books club http://clickhere./click/1365 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 In a message dated 99/10/28 20:25:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, awatt04@... writes: > One way to stay sober is to be friendly, and that means INTRODUCING > YOURSELF. Uh, I posted a VERY long introductory message. If you missed it, I believe you can go to the web site and have a look. Or I can email you a copy, if you wish. - http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 In a message dated 99/10/28 21:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, awatt04@... writes: > People with alcohol/substance abuse > problems almost invariably have additional psychological problems not > addressed by the program, but the latter sentiment actively encourages > ppl to avoid professional psychological help I was discussing this matter with a fellow at a meeting on Tuesday, with particular emphasis on the matter of " pain " that many people seem to feel. I said that AA was supposed to be about alcohol, not psychology, and that it was not appropriate to consider it the be-all and end-all. He seemed to agree with me, although he did spout a few slogans while doing so. - http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 In a message dated 99/10/28 21:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, awatt04@... writes: > People with alcohol/substance abuse > problems almost invariably have additional psychological problems not > addressed by the program, but the latter sentiment actively encourages > ppl to avoid professional psychological help I was discussing this matter with a fellow at a meeting on Tuesday, with particular emphasis on the matter of " pain " that many people seem to feel. I said that AA was supposed to be about alcohol, not psychology, and that it was not appropriate to consider it the be-all and end-all. He seemed to agree with me, although he did spout a few slogans while doing so. - http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 In a message dated 99/10/28 21:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, awatt04@... writes: > People with alcohol/substance abuse > problems almost invariably have additional psychological problems not > addressed by the program, but the latter sentiment actively encourages > ppl to avoid professional psychological help I was discussing this matter with a fellow at a meeting on Tuesday, with particular emphasis on the matter of " pain " that many people seem to feel. I said that AA was supposed to be about alcohol, not psychology, and that it was not appropriate to consider it the be-all and end-all. He seemed to agree with me, although he did spout a few slogans while doing so. - http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 psoftinf-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8872 > > > is there any room on this board to discuss > > ideas on living life sober that would benefit those members interested > > in doing so? > > That's what I'm hoping! There may be, but that isn't actually this list's purpose. One good tip: One way to stay sober is to be friendly, and that means INTRODUCING YOURSELF. When ppl stay anonymous here saying 'I wish you ppl didn't knock AA so much, it doesnt suck that much.' I tend to get a little uncomfortable. know what I mean? Secondly, the very notion " Ideas on living life sober " has an AA germ in it, namely that you must need something to actually do so. This is Holy Writ to groupers, who are desperate to at least get this out of AA escapees, which is why they coerced Rita into SMART attendance when they couldn't force her to AA. Well, I can tell you all you need to know to stay sober, which works everytime, for everybody. DONT DRINK TOO MUCH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 Very well put Pete. I love how you describe it... a " germ " of AA. Apple > There may be, but that isn't actually this list's purpose. One good > tip: > > One way to stay sober is to be friendly, and that means INTRODUCING > YOURSELF. When ppl stay anonymous here saying 'I wish you ppl didn't > knock AA so much, it doesnt suck that much.' I tend to get a little > uncomfortable. know what I mean? > > Secondly, the very notion " Ideas on living life sober " has an AA germ > in it, namely that you must need something to actually do so. This is > Holy Writ to groupers, who are desperate to at least get this out of AA > escapees, which is why they coerced Rita into SMART attendance when > they couldn't force her to AA. > > Well, I can tell you all you need to know to stay sober, which works > everytime, for everybody. > > DONT DRINK TOO MUCH > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 Very well put Pete. I love how you describe it... a " germ " of AA. Apple > There may be, but that isn't actually this list's purpose. One good > tip: > > One way to stay sober is to be friendly, and that means INTRODUCING > YOURSELF. When ppl stay anonymous here saying 'I wish you ppl didn't > knock AA so much, it doesnt suck that much.' I tend to get a little > uncomfortable. know what I mean? > > Secondly, the very notion " Ideas on living life sober " has an AA germ > in it, namely that you must need something to actually do so. This is > Holy Writ to groupers, who are desperate to at least get this out of AA > escapees, which is why they coerced Rita into SMART attendance when > they couldn't force her to AA. > > Well, I can tell you all you need to know to stay sober, which works > everytime, for everybody. > > DONT DRINK TOO MUCH > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 I meant that you hadn't signed yourself. I agree with you about the social aspect of AA, which I believe is responsible for almost all the beneficial effect that ppl can get from AA. The question is, how beneficial is the philosophy, the 12-step program, etc? It might be helpful for a small number of ppl perhaps - those most like the original ppl who dreamed it up. however, it has now moved into groups of ppl totally unlike the original crowd, notably women and minorities, and with totally different problems from alcohol dependence. In addition, it is, as the courts say, unequivocally religious, and has the drawback of a religion: dogmatism. By encouraging ppl to believe: " Only AA works " and " You dont need anything other than AA " enormous damage is done to ppl. Ppl with alcohol/substance abuse problems almost invariably have additional psychological problems not addressed by the program, but the latter sentiment actively encourages ppl to avoid professional psychological help - drug therapy in particular. In 60 years, the program hasnt changed a fraction, yet medicine and psychiatry have advanced beyon recognition, and *Society itself* with the nature of alcohol and substance themselves, have also changed beyond recognition; none of this is reflected in AA. except that the personal stories are updated in the BB. Unlike psychology and medicine, which are scientifically upgraded by research, AA keeps it's program carved in stone; in fact, it pollutes clinical practice by its adherents' dominaion of it. I know of an AA practitioner who relates with pride that his State forbids alcohol therapies aimed at controlled drinking. There is no scientific justification for this - how on earth has this state of affairs come about? This is just part of the massive pro-AA coercion that many ppl on this list have suffered from. psoftinf-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8889 > Uh, I posted a VERY long introductory message. If you missed it, I > believe you can go to the web site and have a look. Or > I can email you a copy, if you wish. > > - > http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 I meant that you hadn't signed yourself. I agree with you about the social aspect of AA, which I believe is responsible for almost all the beneficial effect that ppl can get from AA. The question is, how beneficial is the philosophy, the 12-step program, etc? It might be helpful for a small number of ppl perhaps - those most like the original ppl who dreamed it up. however, it has now moved into groups of ppl totally unlike the original crowd, notably women and minorities, and with totally different problems from alcohol dependence. In addition, it is, as the courts say, unequivocally religious, and has the drawback of a religion: dogmatism. By encouraging ppl to believe: " Only AA works " and " You dont need anything other than AA " enormous damage is done to ppl. Ppl with alcohol/substance abuse problems almost invariably have additional psychological problems not addressed by the program, but the latter sentiment actively encourages ppl to avoid professional psychological help - drug therapy in particular. In 60 years, the program hasnt changed a fraction, yet medicine and psychiatry have advanced beyon recognition, and *Society itself* with the nature of alcohol and substance themselves, have also changed beyond recognition; none of this is reflected in AA. except that the personal stories are updated in the BB. Unlike psychology and medicine, which are scientifically upgraded by research, AA keeps it's program carved in stone; in fact, it pollutes clinical practice by its adherents' dominaion of it. I know of an AA practitioner who relates with pride that his State forbids alcohol therapies aimed at controlled drinking. There is no scientific justification for this - how on earth has this state of affairs come about? This is just part of the massive pro-AA coercion that many ppl on this list have suffered from. psoftinf-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8889 > Uh, I posted a VERY long introductory message. If you missed it, I > believe you can go to the web site and have a look. Or > I can email you a copy, if you wish. > > - > http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 I meant that you hadn't signed yourself. I agree with you about the social aspect of AA, which I believe is responsible for almost all the beneficial effect that ppl can get from AA. The question is, how beneficial is the philosophy, the 12-step program, etc? It might be helpful for a small number of ppl perhaps - those most like the original ppl who dreamed it up. however, it has now moved into groups of ppl totally unlike the original crowd, notably women and minorities, and with totally different problems from alcohol dependence. In addition, it is, as the courts say, unequivocally religious, and has the drawback of a religion: dogmatism. By encouraging ppl to believe: " Only AA works " and " You dont need anything other than AA " enormous damage is done to ppl. Ppl with alcohol/substance abuse problems almost invariably have additional psychological problems not addressed by the program, but the latter sentiment actively encourages ppl to avoid professional psychological help - drug therapy in particular. In 60 years, the program hasnt changed a fraction, yet medicine and psychiatry have advanced beyon recognition, and *Society itself* with the nature of alcohol and substance themselves, have also changed beyond recognition; none of this is reflected in AA. except that the personal stories are updated in the BB. Unlike psychology and medicine, which are scientifically upgraded by research, AA keeps it's program carved in stone; in fact, it pollutes clinical practice by its adherents' dominaion of it. I know of an AA practitioner who relates with pride that his State forbids alcohol therapies aimed at controlled drinking. There is no scientific justification for this - how on earth has this state of affairs come about? This is just part of the massive pro-AA coercion that many ppl on this list have suffered from. psoftinf-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8889 > Uh, I posted a VERY long introductory message. If you missed it, I > believe you can go to the web site and have a look. Or > I can email you a copy, if you wish. > > - > http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 ; You've piqued my interest. Would you mind elaborating on the conversation you mentioned below? Re: My 2 cents... In a message dated 99/10/28 21:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, awatt04@... writes: > People with alcohol/substance abuse > problems almost invariably have additional psychological problems not > addressed by the program, but the latter sentiment actively encourages > ppl to avoid professional psychological help I was discussing this matter with a fellow at a meeting on Tuesday, with particular emphasis on the matter of " pain " that many people seem to feel. I said that AA was supposed to be about alcohol, not psychology, and that it was not appropriate to consider it the be-all and end-all. He seemed to agree with me, although he did spout a few slogans while doing so. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 psoftinf-@... wrote: > > I was discussing this matter with a fellow at a meeting on Tuesday, with > particular emphasis on the matter of " pain " that many people seem to > feel. I presume you mean psychological pain, i.e.depression. > I said that AA was supposed to be about alcohol, not psychology, > and that it was not appropriate to consider it the be-all and end-all. > He seemed to agree with me, although he did spout a few slogans > while doing so. Well of course he will. What you often find is that ppl accept that you might have other problems, but dont like you talking abt it in a meeting. 'If you MUST have therapy/whatever, then go off and have it but only talk program here.' Also, AA isnt abt alcohol. Alcohol or alcoholics are only mentioned in the first and last steps - the infection and reproduction stages of the 12-step virus ; everything in the middle is religious morality. I remember when I first saw them I thought " Huh? what's this got to do with addiction? " . It's interesting that while AA apologists/propogandists here repreatedly bleat " why don't you 12sf ppl talk abt ways to stay sober? " AA itself has very little to do with that very subject - other than their faith that religious observance of the program achieves that effect. The nearest thing to something that actually *does* do this is " Living Sober " a recent, not very influential book, which is aversive to many fundamentalists who see it as distracting from the program. Similarly the very obscure pamphlet concerning " The AA member and Drugs " is basically a fudge document, allowing anyone to adopt any position on medications one pleases, and hence is actually an instrument to try to maintain AA unity than to actually come up with a definitive position on the subject. Also, I think it disgraceful that the physicians who apparently wrote this document talk abt medicines and street drugs in the same breath, as if they were all pretty much of a muchness. Of course, the typical AA/NA almost always *does* consider them indistinguishable (except their precious tobacco and caffeine of course) usually smugly thinking they have a wise insight, whereas in fact they are flaunting an appalling ignorance, one that these physicians out to have corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 In a message dated 99/10/29 0:42:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Nobs@... writes: > Would you mind elaborating on the conversation you mentioned below? Sure. (Other readers might want to skip this, because it isn't terribly interesting.) I was running a small discussion group (only four people in attendance) and while the ostensible topic was " The 12th Step " , I was the only person who was actually talking about that. The other three were talking about how tough life was. (No, they weren't whining; I think they had some legitimate problems.) I had a short time before the next (main) meeting, so I went outside for a smoke. One of the other fellows joined me and I asked him to elaborate on what he'd said, explaining that I had not really paid close attention because I was still boggling at the list of serious problems the previous speaker had cited. He mentioned that the solution was basically along the lines of " Keep Coming Back " . I then said that I noted how often people tried to use the AA program to address problems " other than alcohol " . He seemed receptive to what I was saying, but I have to say that I don't remember his exact words, as we were constantly being interrupted by people showing up (which means saying hello, shaking hands etc.). His final conclusion on the matter was " Keep It Simple " , but I don't know how he meant to apply that to the conversion. It could have been an echo of the Zen-like attitude of simplicity. In other words, he seemed to have understood what I said, and didn't disagree. However, he did feel obligated to frame much of his response in AA terms, which kind of suggests that he might have " got " what I said in his head, but not his heart. I shouldn't be surprised at this. A brief remark from me is hardly going to change his thought patterns; people don't work like that. Maybe he'll think about what I said. Maybe not. I may have planted a seed, but of course HE will have to water it for it to grow. I hope that gives you the details you were seeking. - http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 Also, AA isn't about alcohol. Alcohol or > alcoholics are only mentioned in the first and last steps - the > infection and reproduction stages of the 12-step virus ; everything in > the middle is religious morality. I remember when I first saw them I > thought " Huh? what's this got to do with addiction? " . > Hey Pete, AA isn't about alcohol, addiction, spirituality, or God. AA IS ALL ABOUT AA. During my last few years in the program all I ever seemed to hear were the endless AA commercials that people claimed was heartfelt sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 AA is about alcohol and not psychology when it's convenient for AA to say it is! What about " Alcohol was just a symptom? " Have you heard that one before? Then the only way one is able to go from there without ruffling Old-Timer feathers is to say that alcohol was used to cover up the guilt for our moral failings. Our sins if you will. And that guilt will disappear once we do a MORAL inventory, and make AMENDS to what we have done others. Period. You know what? The old " AA is about alcohol " is a convenient response used to shut up those members who open up about the pain that was inflicted on them, because this makes the people in the rooms who were the sort to inflict pain on others, relive their guilt. I have seen so many women shut up by Old Timers for even the slightest mention of incest or sexual abuse. Why? Alcoholism only results if alcohol is used to cover up MORAL failings, and not sexual abuse? Additionally, when people share their pain, it reminds the others that they all have old wounds -- Pandora's boxes of pain -- of different sizes, that they're trying to keep closed by using the social boost obtained from meetings to get them through the day, without really opening up the box and one by one taking out the demons inside and doing battle with them at last. Apple > In a message dated 99/10/28 21:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > awatt04@... writes: > > > People with alcohol/substance abuse > > problems almost invariably have additional psychological problems not > > addressed by the program, but the latter sentiment actively encourages > > ppl to avoid professional psychological help > > I was discussing this matter with a fellow at a meeting on Tuesday, with > particular emphasis on the matter of " pain " that many people seem to > feel. I said that AA was supposed to be about alcohol, not psychology, > and that it was not appropriate to consider it the be-all and end-all. > He seemed to agree with me, although he did spout a few slogans > while doing so. > > - > http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 In a message dated 99/10/29 9:32:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, railroadrita@... writes: > Could you please explain exactly how you feel AA *IS* about ending > problematic alcohol use? I can't quite make sense of your sentence, I'm afraid. Are you asking me what mechanism I think works (when it works)? I believe that depends on the individual, which is why it peeves me to hear that AA in other areas is so dogmatic. I think AA (or any group, besides the military) works best when it's flexible. For some people, being around folks amongst whom there is a " culture of non-drinking " is the most powerful force. For others, coming to terms with some of their demons (4th through 10th steps) is helpful. For yet others, " helping others " inoculates them with a powerful imperative to NOT drink (12th step, as in " If I drink, I might take some people out with me. " ). Then, too, there are individuals who do NOT want to " think for them- selves " . The world is FULL of such people. These people can benefit from a " higher power " . They WANT to be TOLD what to do. Such people would NEVER join an email group such as this one. I believe that this kind of person ( " the follower " , you might say) can be dangerous if he or she is allowed to be in a position of power. That's because these people are not capable of defending their position by reason or logic, and so they fall back onto totalitarian methods. Such people do not CREATE cults, but they do doggedly perpetuate them. > Before I ever entered an AA meeting, when I heard the phrase " 12 > steps " , I thought they were a series of gradated reduction-in-use > instructions. (Seriously!) I thought the same thing, more or less. This resulted in an amusing exchange between me and the chairperson at my sixth meeting: Me: I'd like to join the group, but I don't know why you want the date of my last drink. Isn't that a bit awkward? I mean, having to change it all the time. Chairperson (stunned): But ... ? You're supposed to TRY to stop drinking! Me: Oh! I didn't go to another meeting for two years after that. I was hoping that AA would wean me off of alcohol slowly. I wasn't ready to go " cold turkey " . (ly, at the time my drinking wasn't really causing me serious problems, but I did know that it was becoming an issue.) It IS interesting that there isn't a step that reads: " Stop drinking " . Logically, you'd think there should be. Maybe after Step 2. > But NOTHING in the actual 12 steps is about reducing or > eliminating drinking. The Steps, it would seem, are 100% about > *things other than alcohol*. I think the AA theory is that people drink for a REASON. They try to deal with the underlying issue. However (as you have pointed out), the " AA way " is derived from the " Oxford Group way " , so it tends to be moralistic. The problem with that is that in many cases there's nothing terribly wrong with the person's morals. When I did my 4th step, I had very little to write. I just wasn't all that bad. When it came time for " amends " , I really had to dig to think up stuff. (Still, the process of talking about those few items made a HUGE difference in my life. For that, I'm glad for what AA did for me. I'm no longer obsessed with hiding my frailties.) > ... for many (particularly clinically depressed people, and rape or > other crime victims) they Steps are actually seriously harmful. The steps themselves, or the way they're interpreted (and " enforced " ) by a particular group? I don't see anything harmful about the steps per se. Can you give me an example of a step that would hurt somebody if it was followed literally? > As far as people speaking in slogans ( Kaminer, in " I'm > Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional " , calls them " talking fortune > cookies " ) Heh heh. That's a good one! > this is a direct throwback to Oxford Group teaching that > intellectualism and individuality are " dangerous " things > which drive people away from God ... It's not just the Oxford Group that says that. Even Humanist groups discuss " The limits of science and logic " . Why else would Skeptic magazine (which I read, ahem, religiously) devote so much space to that kind of question? Having said that, I think that although we might recognize that logic has its limits, we should not dispense with it. It is a useful tool. True, some people (like me, for instance) let it become our master at times, but most people aren't in much danger of THAT happening. (Boy, do I sound smug. Sorry.) > The idiotic [slogans] ... are simply saying, " Shut up and stop > thinking so much. " When I first started in AA, I was instructed " Don't think; don't drink; go to meetings " . Don't THINK!? I had a tough time with that, but I did what I was told (meekly) and got a lot out of the experience. The dogmatic AA's, of course, would extend this to " Don't EVER think " . That is insane. One of the things about AA that really bothers me is that there is NO provision for " old-timers " to have " advanced " meetings. Everybody is always kept at the level of the newcomer, and this idea permeates the thinking in AA. Thus, you'll get a guy who hasn't touched a drop in 25 years say, " I'm only one drink away from where I was before " . Yeah, sure, fine. Point taken. But when are you going to MOVE ON? I think that a lot of old-timers drift away from AA because they get tired of being treated like children. That's why I drifted away after four years of sobriety. Oh, there was some fulfilment in the 12th step stuff, but I felt like I was stuck in kindergarten. There's only so much of that I can take. I find most AA meetings extremely boring, just as I'd be bored if I was forced to sit through a kindergarten class. > A while back I posted a tongue-in-cheek piece about the " Star Trek > Cure " for problem drinking ... You are referring to something known as " Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc " , a famous logical fallacy. For example, if I stop drinking the day after I start eating bananas, I might attribute my success to bananas. It is, however, more likely that the bananas were simply an example of my search for abstinence. In other words, the process was already underway. >You have all the anecdotal evidence you need for a Star Trek Big > Book that the Star Trek Cure *Works if you Work It!* If a certain KIND of person joined a Star Trek club and starting hanging out almost daily with Trekkies (who aren't, to my knowledge, big drinkers), the social environment WOULD help him moderate his drinking PROVIDED HE WAS ENTHUSIASTIC ENOUGH ABOUT STAR TREK. In other words, it wouldn't work for him unless he thought Star Trek was " important " . Eventually, of course, you'd see the birth of email groups named " Star-Trek-Free " . - http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 I'm afraid I don't quite understand your viewpoint, . Could you please explain exactly how you feel AA *IS* about ending problematic alcohol use? Before I ever entered an AA meeting, when I heard the phrase " 12 steps " , I thought they were a series of gradated reduction-in-use instructions. (Seriously!) Were that the case, AA and its famous Steps might legitimately be called a program to help people solve drinking problems. But NOTHING in the actual 12 steps is about reducing or eliminating drinking. The Steps, it would seem, are 100% about *things other than alcohol*. The entire 12-step philosophy (now carried over into 12-step programs for over 200 different " problems " ) is that by confessing " shortcomings " and " defects " WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PROBLEM AT HAND to a mystical power, that " Power " will " cleanse " the person and miraculously remove the urge to ____ [drink, use drugs, " enable " another drinker/drugger, gamble, have illicit sex, have a messy house -- YES! There's a Messies Anonymous!! etc.]. Now of course for the vast majority of people, the Steps are useless at solving any kinds of personal problems whatever, and for many (particularly clinically depressed people, and rape or other crime victims) they Steps are actually seriously harmful. But the fact is that people who are _attempting_ to solve " problems other than alcohol " via the Steps are doing exactly as Bill and Bob intended, and as instructed via the Big Book. As far as people speaking in slogans ( Kaminer, in " I'm Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional " , calls them " talking fortune cookies " ) this is a direct throwback to Oxford Group teaching that intellectualism and individuality are " dangerous " things which drive people away from God ( " Insanity " !) and must be avoided at all costs. Slogan-chanting and Big Book prattle are ways to avoid having serious discussion, or having any deep thoughts at all. The idiotic responses of " Keep Coming Back! " and " Keep It Simple (Stupid)! " to any and all questions about the program are simply saying, " Shut up and stop thinking so much. " While it may be true that many people have become sober while members of AA, I continue to maintain that AA and the Steps have in no way CAUSED anyone's sobriety. A while back I posted a tongue-in-cheek piece about the " Star Trek Cure " for problem drinking -- if Harry X. stops drinking around the same time he starts watching " Star Trek " reruns, he can then state that Star Trek made him sober, and can tell all his friends who wish to cut down/eliminate their drinking to watch Star Trek, and maybe a good percentage of them will also have their sobriety coincide with watching Star Trek, and Voila! You have all the anecdotal evidence you need for a Star Trek Big Book that the Star Trek Cure *Works if you Work It!* ~Rita ---------------------------- psoftinf-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8915 > > I was running a small discussion group (only four people in attendance) > and while the ostensible topic was " The 12th Step " , I was the only person > who was actually talking about that. The other three were talking about > how tough life was. (No, they weren't whining; I think they had some > legitimate problems.) > > I had a short time before the next (main) meeting, so I went outside for > a smoke. One of the other fellows joined me and I asked him to elaborate > on what he'd said, explaining that I had not really paid close attention > because I was still boggling at the list of serious problems the previous > speaker had cited. He mentioned that the solution was basically > along the lines of " Keep Coming Back " . > > I then said that I noted how often people tried to use the AA program > to address problems " other than alcohol " . He seemed receptive to > what I was saying, but I have to say that I don't remember his exact > words, as we were constantly being interrupted by people showing > up (which means saying hello, shaking hands etc.). His final > conclusion on the matter was " Keep It Simple " , but I don't know > how he meant to apply that to the conversion. It could have been > an echo of the Zen-like attitude of simplicity. > > In other words, he seemed to have understood what I said, and didn't > disagree. However, he did feel obligated to frame much of his response > in AA terms, which kind of suggests that he might have " got " what I > said in his head, but not his heart. > > I shouldn't be surprised at this. A brief remark from me is hardly going > to change his thought patterns; people don't work like that. Maybe > he'll think about what I said. Maybe not. I may have planted a > seed, but of course HE will have to water it for it to grow. > > I hope that gives you the details you were seeking. > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 In a message dated 99/10/29 15:57:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, johnhollister@... writes: > You seem very taken with the 12 Steps. As I said, there are things about it I like, and things about it I don't. It's far from perfect (and apparently in some areas it's just dreadful), and I fear it's rather stagnant. So I'm looking into alternatives. > Being an exit counsellor for ex JW's and attending AA seems to me > a bit contradictory unless of course you are just doing research into > cultlike behavior. As an exit counseller, I think people are far too free in tossing the word " cult " around. I don't even use it to apply to Jehovah's Witnesses; I use the word " High Control Group " . That is not to say that I don't think there are enclaves of cultism in AA. I've seen a few stories in this email group that really startled me. > Perhaps your AA attendence is just an attempt to get a little of the > hair of the dog (JW) that bit you. That's an astute remark. Yes, actually, I do crave the spiritual dimension in my life, even though I'm an atheist. As such, I've found it fascinating to try to think up a " higher power " that makes sense to me. It would take me a LONG time to explain how I conceive of a " higher power " , but I don't want to bore you and (perhaps more important) I don't want anybody to think I came here to convert anybody. - http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 In a message dated 99/10/29 15:57:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, johnhollister@... writes: > You seem very taken with the 12 Steps. As I said, there are things about it I like, and things about it I don't. It's far from perfect (and apparently in some areas it's just dreadful), and I fear it's rather stagnant. So I'm looking into alternatives. > Being an exit counsellor for ex JW's and attending AA seems to me > a bit contradictory unless of course you are just doing research into > cultlike behavior. As an exit counseller, I think people are far too free in tossing the word " cult " around. I don't even use it to apply to Jehovah's Witnesses; I use the word " High Control Group " . That is not to say that I don't think there are enclaves of cultism in AA. I've seen a few stories in this email group that really startled me. > Perhaps your AA attendence is just an attempt to get a little of the > hair of the dog (JW) that bit you. That's an astute remark. Yes, actually, I do crave the spiritual dimension in my life, even though I'm an atheist. As such, I've found it fascinating to try to think up a " higher power " that makes sense to me. It would take me a LONG time to explain how I conceive of a " higher power " , but I don't want to bore you and (perhaps more important) I don't want anybody to think I came here to convert anybody. - http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 In a message dated 99/10/29 15:57:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, johnhollister@... writes: > You seem very taken with the 12 Steps. As I said, there are things about it I like, and things about it I don't. It's far from perfect (and apparently in some areas it's just dreadful), and I fear it's rather stagnant. So I'm looking into alternatives. > Being an exit counsellor for ex JW's and attending AA seems to me > a bit contradictory unless of course you are just doing research into > cultlike behavior. As an exit counseller, I think people are far too free in tossing the word " cult " around. I don't even use it to apply to Jehovah's Witnesses; I use the word " High Control Group " . That is not to say that I don't think there are enclaves of cultism in AA. I've seen a few stories in this email group that really startled me. > Perhaps your AA attendence is just an attempt to get a little of the > hair of the dog (JW) that bit you. That's an astute remark. Yes, actually, I do crave the spiritual dimension in my life, even though I'm an atheist. As such, I've found it fascinating to try to think up a " higher power " that makes sense to me. It would take me a LONG time to explain how I conceive of a " higher power " , but I don't want to bore you and (perhaps more important) I don't want anybody to think I came here to convert anybody. - http://users.aol.com/beyondjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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