Re: possible?

[Guest guest]

If this is how you feel, I think that you should go back. As

I mentioned earlier, I was lucky to find a 'sponsor' that advised me to

"take what I need, & leave the rest". I will never click with

the religious crap simply because I had little exposure to that stuff growing

up. I do think that much of what I was negatively reacting to was

the concept of authority among a group of fellow drunks. I do not

doubt that I am an "alcoholic", that's just not ALL I am.

In my years I have met many 'oldtimers' who were so miserable that it was

clear to me that I did not want their brand of sobriety. On the flipside

of staying around AAer's a while is that I learned to think for myself

instead of looking at them for answers. I used to be terrified of

being alone, or being in my mind and now I realize, IMHO, they

others are much worse off than I ever could be.

I hope this was helpful...

In San Francisco

kikibaby67@... wrote:

So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back

to AA. I'm gonna check

it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so much

of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support.

I

checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny. The last

part

was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

oath. That was probably the beast they refer to. I'm cool, though,

I'm

not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa. I agree

with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned into

drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine.

I

got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day

and

the dread started setting in. It said, "Look at you. You're gonna be

miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really are

an alcoholic." I tried to shake it off. I thought something like that

might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive things

to offer, but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group. I'm not bashing

at all cause they are good people and they are really active but there

is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me really

uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now. But,

I

don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting

the

other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3 pages

a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, "Why the F-- are you telling

people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not scientific.

It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not gonna

have cause there aint no god!" But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

So back to my original question. Can you go to AA

and look at the

program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard the

bad. Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's hard

to

get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what about

fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

------------------------------------------------------------------------

A shopper’s dream come true! Find practically anything on earth at

eBay!

Come and browse the more than 2 million items up for bid at any time.

You never know what you might find at eBay!

http://clickhere./click/1140

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying

group communications

--

Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of

giving pleasure to thousands---and all you can do is scratch it.

SIR THOMAS BEECHAM, TO AN UNTALENTED WOMAN CELLIST

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your post. Best of luck to you. I mean that sincerely. I hope

your able to make AA work for you. And if it helps you feel better

connected to others, there's no harm in that. It would be great if you

could let us know how it goes.

I think about returning to AA all the time. And I would never tell a

person not to return to AA if they feel they need it. Its sure better than

being without any hope. I personally can't get involved with 12 step groups

without losing sight of myself. I'm so much of a people pleaser and a

perfectionist that I think I need to be consumed by the program.

But that's just me. If you can keep the program in its proper

perspective that might help. See it for what it is, and take any advice you

recieve with a grain of salt. That's one thing I've always had trouble

doing (outside of AA too). Again, good luck with everything and I hope you

start feeling better soon. Take care, Matt

>From: kikibaby67@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: possible?

>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:47:50 -0700

>

>So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna check

>it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so much

>of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support. I

>checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny. The last part

>was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

>oath. That was probably the beast they refer to. I'm cool, though, I'm

>not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

>the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa. I agree

>with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

>and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned into

>drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

>the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine. I

>got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day and

>the dread started setting in. It said, " Look at you. You're gonna be

>miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really are

>an alcoholic. " I tried to shake it off. I thought something like that

>might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive things

>to offer, but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

>experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group. I'm not bashing

>at all cause they are good people and they are really active but there

>is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me really

>uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

>too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now. But, I

>don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting the

>other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3 pages

>a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, " Why the F-- are you telling

>people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not scientific.

>It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not gonna

>have cause there aint no god! " But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

> So back to my original question. Can you go to AA and look at the

>program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard the

>bad. Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

>scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

>don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's hard to

>get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what about

>fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

>That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

>understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>A shopper’s dream come true! Find practically anything on earth at eBay!

>Come and browse the more than 2 million items up for bid at any time.

>You never know what you might find at eBay!

>http://clickhere./click/1140

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your post. Best of luck to you. I mean that sincerely. I hope

your able to make AA work for you. And if it helps you feel better

connected to others, there's no harm in that. It would be great if you

could let us know how it goes.

I think about returning to AA all the time. And I would never tell a

person not to return to AA if they feel they need it. Its sure better than

being without any hope. I personally can't get involved with 12 step groups

without losing sight of myself. I'm so much of a people pleaser and a

perfectionist that I think I need to be consumed by the program.

But that's just me. If you can keep the program in its proper

perspective that might help. See it for what it is, and take any advice you

recieve with a grain of salt. That's one thing I've always had trouble

doing (outside of AA too). Again, good luck with everything and I hope you

start feeling better soon. Take care, Matt

>From: kikibaby67@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: possible?

>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:47:50 -0700

>

>So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna check

>it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so much

>of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support. I

>checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny. The last part

>was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

>oath. That was probably the beast they refer to. I'm cool, though, I'm

>not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

>the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa. I agree

>with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

>and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned into

>drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

>the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine. I

>got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day and

>the dread started setting in. It said, " Look at you. You're gonna be

>miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really are

>an alcoholic. " I tried to shake it off. I thought something like that

>might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive things

>to offer, but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

>experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group. I'm not bashing

>at all cause they are good people and they are really active but there

>is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me really

>uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

>too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now. But, I

>don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting the

>other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3 pages

>a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, " Why the F-- are you telling

>people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not scientific.

>It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not gonna

>have cause there aint no god! " But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

> So back to my original question. Can you go to AA and look at the

>program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard the

>bad. Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

>scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

>don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's hard to

>get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what about

>fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

>That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

>understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>A shopper’s dream come true! Find practically anything on earth at eBay!

>Come and browse the more than 2 million items up for bid at any time.

>You never know what you might find at eBay!

>http://clickhere./click/1140

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Whatever your decision, GOOD LUCK!!!

I decided to return to a couple of meetings last week. Thinking there

might have been something valuable I might have missed, I listened

carefully and tried to be objective.

I was a round AA people outside of the meetings and socialized with

them for an entire week and a half. That was all I could stand! The

craziness that surrounds AA fanatics made me feel more uncomfortable

than I ever had.

I think being away from the madness helped me to look at AA for what it

really was (to me).

I tried to " take what I needed and leave the rest " but the craziness

was so dominant I would have to get through all the unhealthy thinking

to find the healthy thinking.

For me, it just wasn't worth it.

Maybe in a month or so I may try it again, but I'll bet it will be even

worse than this time! I know too much.

Yes, there are some good people in AA. But there are some good people

everywhere. It just seems like AA is full of the bad apples! The good

are hard to find...and then when I DO find them, I wonder why they are

placing themselves in such an unhealthy atmosphere. Then I start

wondering about their state of mind.

I hope you find what you are looking for. Your group may be entirely

different, but mine is very DYSFUNCTIONAL.

Regarding your " going back out " this past weekend... I would be careful

about what I told them. You know they might use it against you instead

of trying to help you. Watch out for manipulation and conditional

acceptance.

Let us know how it goes. Good luck.

kikibaby6-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8609

> So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna

check

> it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so much

> of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support. I

> checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny. The last

part

> was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

> oath. That was probably the beast they refer to. I'm cool, though, I'm

> not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

> the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa. I agree

> with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

> and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned into

> drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

> the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine. I

> got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day

and

> the dread started setting in. It said, " Look at you. You're gonna be

> miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really are

> an alcoholic. " I tried to shake it off. I thought something like that

> might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive things

> to offer, but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

> experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group. I'm not

bashing

> at all cause they are good people and they are really active but there

> is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me really

> uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

> too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now. But,

I

> don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting the

> other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3

pages

> a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, " Why the F-- are you

telling

> people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not

scientific.

> It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not gonna

> have cause there aint no god! " But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

> So back to my original question. Can you go to AA and look at the

> program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard the

> bad. Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

> scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

> don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's hard

to

> get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what about

> fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

> That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

> understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kiki,

I got sober in LA and my first sponsor was in the Pacific Group which is

about as cultish as you can find in AA. Will you be going back to the

Pacific Group or are you going to seek a more moderate AA group? I knew

a Kiki in AA when I was in LA who was an artist, and she did a great

piece of a miserable guy's head morphing into a beer bottle. It's a long

shot but was it you?

At any rate, best of luck. Ever been to the Saturday Night Malibu

meeting? You haven't lived 'til you've heard Dick Van Dyke read Chapter Five.

kikibaby67@... wrote:

>

> So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna check

> it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so much

> of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support. I

> checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny. The last part

> was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

> oath. That was probably the beast they refer to. I'm cool, though, I'm

> not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

> the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa. I agree

> with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

> and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned into

> drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

> the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine. I

> got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day and

> the dread started setting in. It said, " Look at you. You're gonna be

> miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really are

> an alcoholic. " I tried to shake it off. I thought something like that

> might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive things

> to offer, but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

> experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group. I'm not bashing

> at all cause they are good people and they are really active but there

> is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me really

> uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

> too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now. But, I

> don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting the

> other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3 pages

> a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, " Why the F-- are you telling

> people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not scientific.

> It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not gonna

> have cause there aint no god! " But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

> So back to my original question. Can you go to AA and look at the

> program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard the

> bad. Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

> scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

> don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's hard to

> get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what about

> fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

> That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

> understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> A shopper’s dream come true! Find practically anything on earth at eBay!

> Come and browse the more than 2 million items up for bid at any time.

> You never know what you might find at eBay!

> http://clickhere./click/1140

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi Kiki,

I got sober in LA and my first sponsor was in the Pacific Group which is

about as cultish as you can find in AA. Will you be going back to the

Pacific Group or are you going to seek a more moderate AA group? I knew

a Kiki in AA when I was in LA who was an artist, and she did a great

piece of a miserable guy's head morphing into a beer bottle. It's a long

shot but was it you?

At any rate, best of luck. Ever been to the Saturday Night Malibu

meeting? You haven't lived 'til you've heard Dick Van Dyke read Chapter Five.

kikibaby67@... wrote:

>

> So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna check

> it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so much

> of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support. I

> checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny. The last part

> was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

> oath. That was probably the beast they refer to. I'm cool, though, I'm

> not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

> the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa. I agree

> with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

> and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned into

> drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

> the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine. I

> got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day and

> the dread started setting in. It said, " Look at you. You're gonna be

> miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really are

> an alcoholic. " I tried to shake it off. I thought something like that

> might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive things

> to offer, but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

> experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group. I'm not bashing

> at all cause they are good people and they are really active but there

> is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me really

> uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

> too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now. But, I

> don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting the

> other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3 pages

> a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, " Why the F-- are you telling

> people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not scientific.

> It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not gonna

> have cause there aint no god! " But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

> So back to my original question. Can you go to AA and look at the

> program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard the

> bad. Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

> scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

> don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's hard to

> get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what about

> fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

> That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

> understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> A shopper’s dream come true! Find practically anything on earth at eBay!

> Come and browse the more than 2 million items up for bid at any time.

> You never know what you might find at eBay!

> http://clickhere./click/1140

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi Kiki,

I got sober in LA and my first sponsor was in the Pacific Group which is

about as cultish as you can find in AA. Will you be going back to the

Pacific Group or are you going to seek a more moderate AA group? I knew

a Kiki in AA when I was in LA who was an artist, and she did a great

piece of a miserable guy's head morphing into a beer bottle. It's a long

shot but was it you?

At any rate, best of luck. Ever been to the Saturday Night Malibu

meeting? You haven't lived 'til you've heard Dick Van Dyke read Chapter Five.

kikibaby67@... wrote:

>

> So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna check

> it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so much

> of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support. I

> checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny. The last part

> was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

> oath. That was probably the beast they refer to. I'm cool, though, I'm

> not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

> the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa. I agree

> with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

> and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned into

> drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

> the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine. I

> got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day and

> the dread started setting in. It said, " Look at you. You're gonna be

> miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really are

> an alcoholic. " I tried to shake it off. I thought something like that

> might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive things

> to offer, but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

> experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group. I'm not bashing

> at all cause they are good people and they are really active but there

> is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me really

> uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

> too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now. But, I

> don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting the

> other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3 pages

> a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, " Why the F-- are you telling

> people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not scientific.

> It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not gonna

> have cause there aint no god! " But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

> So back to my original question. Can you go to AA and look at the

> program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard the

> bad. Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

> scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

> don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's hard to

> get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what about

> fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

> That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

> understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> A shopper’s dream come true! Find practically anything on earth at eBay!

> Come and browse the more than 2 million items up for bid at any time.

> You never know what you might find at eBay!

> http://clickhere./click/1140

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

hi john,

no i'm not that kiki, but thanks for the response. I'm gonna go to a

meeting on ohio street tonight i think unless i chicken out. it's alot

less controlling and all encompassing than PG. I don't know. I don't

want to need this aa shit.

but...i'll check it out. lately the big book thumping and religious

slogans make me wanna puke so we'll see. thanks -kiki

john hollister wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8614

> Hi Kiki,

> I got sober in LA and my first sponsor was in the Pacific Group which

is

> about as cultish as you can find in AA. Will you be going back to the

> Pacific Group or are you going to seek a more moderate AA group? I

knew

> a Kiki in AA when I was in LA who was an artist, and she did a great

> piece of a miserable guy's head morphing into a beer bottle. It's a

long

> shot but was it you?

>

> At any rate, best of luck. Ever been to the Saturday Night Malibu

> meeting? You haven't lived 'til you've heard Dick Van Dyke read

Chapter Five.

>

>

>

> kikibaby67@... wrote:

> >

> > So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna

check

> > it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so

much

> > of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support.

I

> > checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny. The last

part

> > was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

> > oath. That was probably the beast they refer to. I'm cool, though,

I'm

> > not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

> > the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa. I

agree

> > with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

> > and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned

into

> > drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

> > the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine. I

> > got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day

and

> > the dread started setting in. It said, " Look at you. You're gonna be

> > miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really

are

> > an alcoholic. " I tried to shake it off. I thought something like

that

> > might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive

things

> > to offer, but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

> > experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group. I'm not

bashing

> > at all cause they are good people and they are really active but

there

> > is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me

really

> > uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

> > too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now.

But, I

> > don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting

the

> > other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3

pages

> > a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, " Why the F-- are you

telling

> > people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not

scientific.

> > It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not

gonna

> > have cause there aint no god! " But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

> > So back to my original question. Can you go to AA and look at

the

> > program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard

the

> > bad. Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

> > scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

> > don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's

hard to

> > get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what

about

> > fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

> > That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

> > understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

> >

[Guest guest]

You're right, the Big Book is gobblygook. I was thinking this just

today. It doesn't make sense. The people don't make sense trying to

make sense of it. It's buuuuuulllsheeeeett..

But, if you want the group experience, you can go back, you can try to

find a meeting you like. Meetings take on different flavors I've

noticed. Some are cultish, some are churchy, some are self-helpy. The

last of the three is the least repulsive to me. A meeting frequented

by atheists might be nice. Or you could try a different step group like

Coda or Alanon. Or you could try a different group besides a recovery

group, like taking a class or joining a club or doing volunteer work.

A group therapy experience might be nice too. The fellowship aspect is

a big powerful magnet. Very powerful! Humans need to congregate, its

very basic.. very primal. I, however found the last few times I went

to meetings that they have been too ridiculous for me to tolerate. I

can't be honest. How the hell can I ever tell them how I feel? And I

can't have meaningful relationships with people with whom I cannot be

honest. If I can find a meeting where they don't believe the program

and I can tell them what I really think and feel, I'd be the first one

to go back, but I don't know if such a group exists. My symptoms have

disappeared since I've left meetings. I'm much lonelier, but I'm not

angry confused and full of self-doubt.

I might dabble in some experimenting with meetings though... like go to

a rehab where an outside meeting comes in to " carry the message " . The

rehab people are desperate, and they're not under " the spell " . They are

easy to reach. It might be good to go there to " carry the truth " .

Apple

kikibaby6-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8609

> So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna

check

> it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so much

> of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support. I

> checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny. The last

part

> was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

> oath. That was probably the beast they refer to. I'm cool, though, I'm

> not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

> the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa. I agree

> with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

> and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned into

> drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

> the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine. I

> got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day

and

> the dread started setting in. It said, " Look at you. You're gonna be

> miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really are

> an alcoholic. " I tried to shake it off. I thought something like that

> might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive things

> to offer, but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

> experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group. I'm not

bashing

> at all cause they are good people and they are really active but there

> is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me really

> uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

> too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now. But,

I

> don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting the

> other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3

pages

> a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, " Why the F-- are you

telling

> people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not

scientific.

> It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not gonna

> have cause there aint no god! " But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

> So back to my original question. Can you go to AA and look at the

> program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard the

> bad. Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

> scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

> don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's hard

to

> get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what about

> fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

> That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

> understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

>

[Guest guest]

boy do I agree with you vomit... It's true, once we know " too much "

it's hard to go back to intellectual kindergarten just to be among the

classmates. Why would healthy people choose to be in such an

atmosphere? Taking what you like and leaving the rest is a lot of

mental work too. The gold nuggets are so few compared to the heap of

cow manure. I don't like to dig that much.

I just wish that a news release would come out of the GSO stating " OK,

the jokes over.. now everyone can say what they really feel " Wouldn't

it be wild if people told the truth instead of molding it to the lunacy

of the AA scripture?

Apple

> Whatever your decision, GOOD LUCK!!!

> I decided to return to a couple of meetings last week. Thinking there

> might have been something valuable I might have missed, I listened

> carefully and tried to be objective.

> I was a round AA people outside of the meetings and socialized with

> them for an entire week and a half. That was all I could stand! The

> craziness that surrounds AA fanatics made me feel more uncomfortable

> than I ever had.

> I think being away from the madness helped me to look at AA for what

it

> really was (to me).

> I tried to " take what I needed and leave the rest " but the craziness

> was so dominant I would have to get through all the unhealthy thinking

> to find the healthy thinking.

> For me, it just wasn't worth it.

> Maybe in a month or so I may try it again, but I'll bet it will be

even

> worse than this time! I know too much.

> Yes, there are some good people in AA. But there are some good people

> everywhere. It just seems like AA is full of the bad apples! The

good

> are hard to find...and then when I DO find them, I wonder why they are

> placing themselves in such an unhealthy atmosphere. Then I start

> wondering about their state of mind.

> I hope you find what you are looking for. Your group may be entirely

> different, but mine is very DYSFUNCTIONAL.

> Regarding your " going back out " this past weekend... I would be

careful

> about what I told them. You know they might use it against you

instead

> of trying to help you. Watch out for manipulation and conditional

> acceptance.

> Let us know how it goes. Good luck.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You're an atheist, and going to church makes sense.

You think there's some sense in AA and you're determined to find it.

(A hint: if any drinking causes you trouble, whether work, self doubt,

relationships, legal, depression, etc) then it makes sense to quit

drinking once and for all, and never to change your mind. If that's

true, have you ever! heard that message at AA. )

You know what you're going to find when you get there, but you feel

compelled to go back for some more.

You did enough AVRT learning to recognize the beast and not enough to

recognize it as " not you, but it "

In you're very first post, you were ecstatic to find a place to vent

your hatred of 12step and religion and cults and sponsers and all the

bullshit.

You managed to stick around and put up with the bullshit of AA for 2

1/2 (not 21) years and cnat seem to give your new friends and your new

freedom more than 2 weeks to see how it/they fit you or how well you

can adapt to fit it.

Did you notice that no one here seemed to mind that you had a drink or

ten? We have no doctrine on the subject. Each person has to make his

own decisions as to what's right.

You answer all of your own questions quite honestly.

You hold deeply ingrained beliefs that you don't want to change and

they are in conflict with each other.

Which beliefs are your true ones. Atheism, self determination, and

personal power, and a pursuit of art, music and a productive happy life

life , or powerlessness, god control, fear, unhappiness, hypocrisy,

confession, repentense, pennance, and misery. What do you really

believe, and where will you find each group?

following is the text of your private email to me which was received

but not answered on Tuesday 10/12

Please re-read your own words. Then re-read what you posted to the

group which follows that.

Make up your mind, stick with your decision, and get on with your life.

For the life of me, I can't figure out how you can have it both ways.

I too wish you luck, sobriety, happiness and honesty. But I can't tell

you what to do because that would make me your sponsor. I do recommend

that you become a POWER and take control of your life. No one at AA is

ever going to ever give you permission to think for yourself, but I do.

" Jack,

thank you for your emails. If I didn't (have) this voice

of reason I think I'd have to give in and do what they

want. I did go out and drink this weekend. It's was

okay, but then I drank the next day and then I began

to feel like I was out of control. Okay,

intellectually I told myself this is AA brainwashing.

It's probably not the best thing for me to go back

into a habit of avoidance and solace through alcohol.

But I started feeling like I was going to spin out of

control. I also started thinking, look, they're all

right. I can't stop. I'm insane. I had a few drinks a

couple of nights in a row and i felt like i was going

to end up in hospitalks, etc. It doesn't help that I

had to hide from everyone cause my housemates are good

people and believe I'm an alcoholic cause everybody in

AA is an alcholic. I'm just in denial.

I learned that folks from the 12step free group

were right. Somebody said if I drink I'll propbably go

running back to AA. That's what happened. I did it out

of the insistence of a friend. I didn't want to go but

agreed I probably should. The whole fear thing that

happened was scary. Before I went to a meeting I

realized that drinking wasn't all that I hoped it

would be. And that I had greater plans and hopes for

my life than that. It's no replacement for a life well

lived. It can be an addition to it but you gotta live

and maybe enjoy a drink no the other way around. At

any rate I realized that maybe I do have a problem.

I've never not drank compulsively. I don't know how

it's done. It's possible I can learn that. It's

possible that I can't or that I wouldn't want to.(

Drinking one beer does nothing to me.) But I felt in

control. It's an easy choice. Do interesting things

and be happy and productive or run around chasing

happiness and not accomplishing a whole lot. It felt

good to understand my limitations for now at least and

make my own decision. If I'm going to be abstinent I

gotta make the choice not someone else. I did and felt

good about it.

Later that day I went to AA. I promised a friend. I

didn't do the whole hand raising newcomer deal. I

couldn't say " Hi, Bob " whenever Bob spoke. I listened

and some of it was good. The speaker has felt how I

have felt, etc. and then they go off into mystical

never never land with the Big Book and all the other

gobblying guk. I want to stand up and scream: What a

bunch of Bullsh**! Who the hell are Bill and Bob and

why is some book one of them wrote the bible for

alcoholics? There's no science in it. At any rate, I'm

alright then, but I have a hard time seeing how I can

reconcile what I think and what they spout. They are

bigger and stronger and I wouldn't win. I'm atheist,

though, so I'd always have criticism. But that gets

burried after a while for the sake of unity and

recovery. I've done all they've asked. I've gotten

down on my knees and said the third step prayer. How

sick is that. I feel dirty afterwords but what else

can I do. If I'm truly as sick as they say I am and

this is the only solution then I'd better try it.

I went to another meeting last night. The speaker

was funny, but this was his life. Gotta hit your

meetings. Gotta read 3 pages out of the Big Book every

day. I'm thinking, " why? " While I'm in the meeting. My

spirit starts sinking. I am starting to feel anguish

over losing my time. My whole positive understanding

of taking charge of my abstinence from my own

understanding and goals is sinking away. That whole AA

anxiety started setting in. I don't know how to

describe it. It's a feeling that says, you're sick.

you need help. you're out of control. you need to call

you sponsor and hit 90 in 90. you need to go back to

your old group and raise your hand as a newcomer and

feel the humiliation. you need to start counting the

days again. Another part of me is nasiated by the

whole idea. what happened to my own power? So, I've

been reading the aadeprogramming site today. I am

going to find how i felt before i went back to AA. I'm

not gonna drink right now cause I want to live and I

don't want to have to run back to AA. I also don't

know if i can do it the way I want to be able to do it

and if not i need to leave it alone for a while.

I've got good friends. They mean well. They gave

me the number of a sober guy that's not that much into

the religious aspect. i'm sure he's a nice guy, but i

don't want to get hooked on aa. i'd rather be hooked

on exercising or making music or anything but the

constant self analyzation of my numerous character

defects.

kiki

kikibaby6-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8609

> So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna

check

> it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so much

> of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support. I

> checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny. The last

part

> was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

> oath. That was probably the beast they refer to. I'm cool, though, I'm

> not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

> the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa. I agree

> with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

> and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned into

> drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

> the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine. I

> got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day

and

> the dread started setting in. It said, " Look at you. You're gonna be

> miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really are

> an alcoholic. " I tried to shake it off. I thought something like that

> might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive things

> to offer, but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

> experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group. I'm not

bashing

> at all cause they are good people and they are really active but there

> is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me really

> uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

> too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now. But,

I

> don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting the

> other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3

pages

> a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, " Why the F-- are you

telling

> people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not

scientific.

> It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not gonna

> have cause there aint no god! " But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

> So back to my original question. Can you go to AA and look at the

> program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard the

> bad. Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

> scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

> don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's hard

to

> get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what about

> fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

> That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

> understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

>

[Guest guest]

I know how Kiki feels Jack. That group experience does lure people.

It's a strong pull. Like I said, I tried to go back, but the more I

knew the truth, the crazier it felt to be there. Not being able to

speak up to the newcomers and stand up and say " DON'T absorb that brain

poison " . " You're not powerless over shit. " " Stay away from those

books! " It was hard not being able to say that.

Sometimes there's no better way to convince oneself than to visit with

the lemmings once again.

Apple

jackandj-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8620

> You're an atheist, and going to church makes sense.

>

> You think there's some sense in AA and you're determined to find it.

> (A hint: if any drinking causes you trouble, whether work, self

doubt,

> relationships, legal, depression, etc) then it makes sense to quit

> drinking once and for all, and never to change your mind. If that's

> true, have you ever! heard that message at AA. )

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey, welcome back .

I have been buried in school this week.

I " came out " to my writing group recently....

talking about the piece I was writing for the Fransway book. Yesterday I was

approached by a woman in the class wanting to know more about it. Seems she

has a roomate she wanted to do an intervention on, a deprogramming

intervention.

Yesterday was the " run into everyone I know from 12 step groups " day. It

wasn't too bad as everyone has stopped going to meetings. I guess there is

hope. Went to an Anthropology Student Association meeting yesterday. They

meet at a bar on campus after every meeting. At this point I figure it might

be an option to go to one of those after the meeting things on occasion. I

actually like virgin bloody mary's. It tends to just reinforce the fact I

have choices, and don't have any desire to drink anymore.

Every once in a while I wonder what is up with so many of the people I knew

in the meetings, than I realize I have just as many friends at school now,

why bother?

I did go to one of those Pacific Group things for awhile. It was weird, even

weirder than regular AA meetings, if you could call AA normal in any sense

of the word. AA was a strech for me, but this group was impossible for me to

tolerate. I got the same feeling from Scientology after they give you one of

those " free " personality tests. I live right next to one of those. No

offense to any Scientologist's lurking around. So glad it's Friday. It's

been a long week with school and work. Next week I start an Internship with

a local Folklife project. They have an Apprenticeship Program for Folk

Artists. I am looking forward to it.

The University is having an Open House this weekend.

Lots of snoozing with students and faculty. Heck, it's free food. On a

students budget, any chance for free food is something you learn never to

turn down.

Rebekah

[Guest guest]

At 12:47 PM 10/14/99 -0700, kikibaby67@... wrote:

>So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna check

>it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so much

>of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support. I

>checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny.

I may look, it's been several years since I looked it over.

>The last part

>was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

>oath. That was probably the beast they refer to.

Or 'the beast' may be RR dogma, RR's name for 'this disease of

alcoholism'. Similarly, SOS founder Jim wrote about

the 'lizard brain' which is sometimes mentioned in SOS meetings

as something that programs drinkers at the cellular level to drink,

or something like that. I don't know that there's much more scientific

basis for either of these things than there is for anything in AA. But

if you want to stop drinking and they help, then they're there for you

to use.

>I'm cool, though, I'm

>not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

>the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa.

I remember that, it's mostly the guilt trips. If (assuming you're a

US citizen, this may be true for other countries too) you've ever heard

the Star Spangled Banner and had the thought that you should stand

reverently with your right hand over your heart, that's sometimes

called 'patriotism', but it's pretty much the same cultural programming

as the belief that if you're drinking is negatively affecting you, you

should go to AA.

I agree

>with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

>and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned into

>drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

>the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine. I

>got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day and

>the dread started setting in. It said, " Look at you. You're gonna be

>miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really are

>an alcoholic. "

So, where did that message come from...?

>I tried to shake it off. I thought something like that

>might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive things

>to offer,

Maybe this is the belief that's a problem...I'll go ahead and

intentionally prove Godwin's law by giving the analogy: " I feel like

Nazism has some positive things to offer, ... "

>but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

>experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group.

Was this the one I read about here earlier, run by Clancy, requires

men to wear suits and women to wear dresses (or are these just

" suggestions " ?)?

>I'm not bashing

>at all cause they are good people and they are really active but there

>is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me really

>uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

>too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now. But, I

>don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting the

>other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3 pages

>a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, " Why the F-- are you telling

>people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not scientific.

>It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not gonna

>have cause there aint no god! " But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

But you didn't walk out, either.

> So back to my original question. Can you go to AA and look at the

>program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard the

>bad.

" Take what you like and leave the rest " ? I'll share my 'experience,

strength, and hope' with you. I tried that. It didn't work for me.

>Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

>scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

>don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's hard to

>get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what about

>fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

It sure seemed that way for me, for years. I've since decided it's

better to have no friends at all thao have AA friends.

>That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

>understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

Another way of saying it is you're fence-sitting. Go ahead and read

all the AA-critical and cult literature you can find. One of the worst

places to be (to totally screw an AA metaphor) is to have a head full

of how cults work and a belly foll of AA coffee.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

> So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna

check

> it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so much

> of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support.

That is your addictive voice talking. It would be nice to have some

kind of support and while it may be desirable it certainly is not

absolutely necessary that you have some kind of support. Besides, A.A.

is not exactly the best place to find support. Are there SMART meetings

where you live? SKIP? SOS? RS? You don't have to go back to A.A.

Challenge, dispute, and replace the idea that you must absolutely have

the support of others in order to be happy,or feel good about yourself,

or to stay abstinent. I wish you well - jerry

[Guest guest]

joe-b@... writes:

> It is normal to desire the company of others, and even more so the company

> of people who you have soething in common with.

This is precisely the reason why I felt completely at loose ends in AA. Once

you stop talking about alcohol, how many members really have any ideas worth

discussing? I certainly never found any. Their entire outlook on life seems

to have been homogenised to the point of insipidity.

Ta,

[Guest guest]

jack,

thanks for writing back. i was hoping you hadn't given up on me. i

was so glad to see all the postings. my heart rose. you are

uncompromising and that is good. i should know better than to think

that all that powerlessness and hyprocracy and self doubt could coexist

in harmony with self determination and, empowerment, etc. it's wierd

what kind of people support aa. a friend of mine was using dialectical

materialism to show me how all this stuff could coexist and work.

that's funny. i asked him, why are you so stuck on aa? he said, because

i see people with drinking or drug problems go to aa and they don't

drink or use. i probably wouldn't drink or use if i joined scientolgy

either but people don't get the similarities. i saw the movie the

matrix before i made the decision to leave aa and drink. ( i wasn't

really planning on drinking to excess but just being able to make my

own decisions) anyways, the premise of the movie to me is that truth is

power. and that if there exists a material basis to do something then

you can do it. You are the One. You have the Power. No,you can't walk

through walls and all that stuff cause there's no basis for that. But

there is a basis for me to be able to walk with my head up, full of

self confidence. Thank you for telling me to reclaim my power. it's not

some higher power. it's just me. aa will keep me from being lonely but

it'll will never tell me i have power. I wanted self confidence from

them but in the all i got was lack of confidence. I would have

eventually learned how to relate to people without drinking. I could

have seen a therapist. who knows.

you know i didn't have a sense of how programmed i was. when i was

first checking out anti cult sites which lead me here eventually, i

suspected aa had cult like qualitites, but then, everything seems to.

what the f-- is the christian church or anything that gets promoted in

this society. So, a little cultishness is alright I guessed. I kind of

liked it anyways cause it gives you a sense of identity. But then I had

this sort of revelation that I needed to get out of there and make my

own choices, etc. I thought i was through with them. Now i see how

ingrained it is. it was easier when i had the prospect of drinking

cause that was something exciting and comforting to look forward to on

occaision. but now i'm scared of it. not cause i'll run over somebody.

i called for a ride from my " your an alcoholic and just get used to

it. " house mates rather than risk driving. i don't have a beer and end

up on skid row. it's that i might have a few beers and not do

anything with my life and worse: I'll start having those aa fear

flashes of thinking i'm a loser and that i'm out of control cause i

have a few beers or 10.

But now i'm trying to get out of aa without all the promise of a

cold one and the imagined good times to come. whoah, that's different.

it's just gonna be me. when i came into aa " me " was a failure. Now " me "

is diseased person with tons of character defects. I gotta find that

self empowered " me " . I'm an activist. I do good work. Well, I try

anyways. My life isn't dedicated to just getting mine. I have goals and

aspirations and I put time into those. My friends that I work with on

these projects are always telling what a contribution I make and so on.

But all the good stuff i hear kind of melts on the surface and the bad

stuff lays there like a rock. but, you know, aa never helped me with

that. Now i was a loser in aa, too. you're late, you didn't go, you

missed your committment, you didn't follow sponsor direction, you

didn;t call your sponsor, you didn't go to whatever aa event, you not

successful enough, you not working the steps or not doing them

properly, you haven't found your touchy feely higher power...YOU'RE A

LOSER!!! I must like abuse. Every wednesday I would go to my meeting

and meet my sponsor out in front during the break and she would yell at

me. I'd go back in shaken and confused and try to redicate myself to

doing it the " right " way. I don't think these folks are conciously

trying to do some mind control bit but they sure could write a book on

it.

Jack, I not ready at this moment to say that i'll never drink again

ever! I do appreciate that no one berated me here for drinking. I knew

i could be totally honest here but i wasn't sure. i committed to a non

aa(but aa lovin) friend that I wouldn't drink for 6 months. i know now

that drinking is over rated and a poor subsitute for real living.

hitting the ball at some stupid company softball team game would feel a

hell of a lot better than 3 pints of ale. I am ready to give my friends

here a chance. this is the deal. aa will be there. I am going to make a

committment to my own power and not go to aa this weekend. and i'm

gonna throw away that stupid big book. I'm gonna feel nervous and

insane and lonely and bored. I know that. but i'm just gonna feel it.

get some exercise. see a movie. i may start looking up that rational

intelligence stuff was talking about. i know the beast is still in

there or i would just go to the rr site and do it. but at this very

moment i gotta get some distance between me and aa. that scares the

beast and i think the prospect if drinking again kind of keeps it

settled. i know this all sounds weird. i also know that right now

drinking = AA.

not to be gushing with gratitude but thanks. i love this list.

-kiki

jackandj-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8620

> You're an atheist, and going to church makes sense.

>

> You think there's some sense in AA and you're determined to find it.

> (A hint: if any drinking causes you trouble, whether work, self

doubt,

> relationships, legal, depression, etc) then it makes sense to quit

> drinking once and for all, and never to change your mind. If that's

> true, have you ever! heard that message at AA. )

>

> You know what you're going to find when you get there, but you feel

> compelled to go back for some more.

>

> You did enough AVRT learning to recognize the beast and not enough to

> recognize it as " not you, but it "

>

> In you're very first post, you were ecstatic to find a place to vent

> your hatred of 12step and religion and cults and sponsers and all the

> bullshit.

>

> You managed to stick around and put up with the bullshit of AA for 2

> 1/2 (not 21) years and cnat seem to give your new friends and your new

> freedom more than 2 weeks to see how it/they fit you or how well you

> can adapt to fit it.

>

> Did you notice that no one here seemed to mind that you had a drink or

> ten? We have no doctrine on the subject. Each person has to make his

> own decisions as to what's right.

>

> You answer all of your own questions quite honestly.

>

> You hold deeply ingrained beliefs that you don't want to change and

> they are in conflict with each other.

> Which beliefs are your true ones. Atheism, self determination, and

> personal power, and a pursuit of art, music and a productive happy

life

> life , or powerlessness, god control, fear, unhappiness, hypocrisy,

> confession, repentense, pennance, and misery. What do you really

> believe, and where will you find each group?

>

> following is the text of your private email to me which was received

> but not answered on Tuesday 10/12

> Please re-read your own words. Then re-read what you posted to the

> group which follows that.

> Make up your mind, stick with your decision, and get on with your

life.

> For the life of me, I can't figure out how you can have it both ways.

>

> I too wish you luck, sobriety, happiness and honesty. But I can't

tell

> you what to do because that would make me your sponsor. I do recommend

> that you become a POWER and take control of your life. No one at AA

is

> ever going to ever give you permission to think for yourself, but I

do.

>

>

> " Jack,

> thank you for your emails. If I didn't (have) this voice

> of reason I think I'd have to give in and do what they

> want. I did go out and drink this weekend. It's was

> okay, but then I drank the next day and then I began

> to feel like I was out of control. Okay,

> intellectually I told myself this is AA brainwashing.

> It's probably not the best thing for me to go back

> into a habit of avoidance and solace through alcohol.

> But I started feeling like I was going to spin out of

> control. I also started thinking, look, they're all

> right. I can't stop. I'm insane. I had a few drinks a

> couple of nights in a row and i felt like i was going

> to end up in hospitalks, etc. It doesn't help that I

> had to hide from everyone cause my housemates are good

> people and believe I'm an alcoholic cause everybody in

> AA is an alcholic. I'm just in denial.

> I learned that folks from the 12step free group

> were right. Somebody said if I drink I'll propbably go

> running back to AA. That's what happened. I did it out

> of the insistence of a friend. I didn't want to go but

> agreed I probably should. The whole fear thing that

> happened was scary. Before I went to a meeting I

> realized that drinking wasn't all that I hoped it

> would be. And that I had greater plans and hopes for

> my life than that. It's no replacement for a life well

> lived. It can be an addition to it but you gotta live

> and maybe enjoy a drink no the other way around. At

> any rate I realized that maybe I do have a problem.

> I've never not drank compulsively. I don't know how

> it's done. It's possible I can learn that. It's

> possible that I can't or that I wouldn't want to.(

> Drinking one beer does nothing to me.) But I felt in

> control. It's an easy choice. Do interesting things

> and be happy and productive or run around chasing

> happiness and not accomplishing a whole lot. It felt

> good to understand my limitations for now at least and

> make my own decision. If I'm going to be abstinent I

> gotta make the choice not someone else. I did and felt

> good about it.

> Later that day I went to AA. I promised a friend. I

> didn't do the whole hand raising newcomer deal. I

> couldn't say " Hi, Bob " whenever Bob spoke. I listened

> and some of it was good. The speaker has felt how I

> have felt, etc. and then they go off into mystical

> never never land with the Big Book and all the other

> gobblying guk. I want to stand up and scream: What a

> bunch of Bullsh**! Who the hell are Bill and Bob and

> why is some book one of them wrote the bible for

> alcoholics? There's no science in it. At any rate, I'm

> alright then, but I have a hard time seeing how I can

> reconcile what I think and what they spout. They are

> bigger and stronger and I wouldn't win. I'm atheist,

> though, so I'd always have criticism. But that gets

> burried after a while for the sake of unity and

> recovery. I've done all they've asked. I've gotten

> down on my knees and said the third step prayer. How

> sick is that. I feel dirty afterwords but what else

> can I do. If I'm truly as sick as they say I am and

> this is the only solution then I'd better try it.

> I went to another meeting last night. The speaker

> was funny, but this was his life. Gotta hit your

> meetings. Gotta read 3 pages out of the Big Book every

> day. I'm thinking, " why? " While I'm in the meeting. My

> spirit starts sinking. I am starting to feel anguish

> over losing my time. My whole positive understanding

> of taking charge of my abstinence from my own

> understanding and goals is sinking away. That whole AA

> anxiety started setting in. I don't know how to

> describe it. It's a feeling that says, you're sick.

> you need help. you're out of control. you need to call

> you sponsor and hit 90 in 90. you need to go back to

> your old group and raise your hand as a newcomer and

> feel the humiliation. you need to start counting the

> days again. Another part of me is nasiated by the

> whole idea. what happened to my own power? So, I've

> been reading the aadeprogramming site today. I am

> going to find how i felt before i went back to AA. I'm

> not gonna drink right now cause I want to live and I

> don't want to have to run back to AA. I also don't

> know if i can do it the way I want to be able to do it

> and if not i need to leave it alone for a while.

> I've got good friends. They mean well. They gave

> me the number of a sober guy that's not that much into

> the religious aspect. i'm sure he's a nice guy, but i

> don't want to get hooked on aa. i'd rather be hooked

> on exercising or making music or anything but the

> constant self analyzation of my numerous character

> defects.

>

> kiki

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> kikibaby6-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8609

> > So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna

> check

> > it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so

much

> > of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support.

I

> > checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny. The last

> part

> > was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

> > oath. That was probably the beast they refer to. I'm cool, though,

I'm

> > not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

> > the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa. I

agree

> > with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

> > and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned

into

> > drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

> > the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine. I

> > got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day

> and

> > the dread started setting in. It said, " Look at you. You're gonna be

> > miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really

are

> > an alcoholic. " I tried to shake it off. I thought something like

that

> > might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive

things

> > to offer, but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

> > experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group. I'm not

> bashing

> > at all cause they are good people and they are really active but

there

> > is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me

really

> > uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

> > too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now.

But,

> I

> > don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting

the

> > other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3

> pages

> > a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, " Why the F-- are you

> telling

> > people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not

> scientific.

> > It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not

gonna

> > have cause there aint no god! " But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

> > So back to my original question. Can you go to AA and look at

the

> > program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard

the

> > bad. Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

> > scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

> > don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's hard

> to

> > get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what

about

> > fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

> > That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

> > understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Kiki:

You don't have to feel bored and lonely. The company softball game has other

people there. There are all kinds of activities in the world that people do

together besides AA, that center on productive pursuits. If you like art,

sports, reading, board games, languages, science, dolls, antiques, house

construction -- I could go on and on. There are classes, clubs, charities,

groups. Do you want to learn something? Habitat for Humanity will teach you to

build houses and it won't cost you a dime. There are clubs for learning to make

quilts, sculptures, whatever you like. You can take classes to learn what you

want to learn, whether it's French, tailoring or carpentry and it will cost

something, but usually a minimal amount if you are around a community college.

Join a volunteer group -- teach someone how to read, take care of cats and dogs

at your local humane society. All of these are ways to reach other people and

build friendships. If no friendships result at first, you are still dealing

with other people and making far more of a contribution than you would if you

were going to AA. (My opinion. But it works for me.) I like politics, social

issues, women against rape, illiteracy, and so forth. There are many ways to

not only be useful but to cultivate satisfying relationships and group support.

Group support does not have to be centered around your drinking problem. Any

kind works, if you feel good about it. And you evidently don't feel good about

AA, nor are you receiving true support there.

It's hard to go out into the world after AA has told you what a shit you are,

but remember, most of the people in the world don't know what AA has said.

After you've gotten feedback from those people who aren't steppers and don't

know what AA is, you might just begin to believe that AA is wrong, that you do

belong here as much as anyone else and that you have a great deal to offer (as

you are apparently told, but can't believe.)

You are right to be afraid of drinking in some ways, yet it isn't helpful to

believe that if you have one drink you will have ten or twenty. In fact, you

won't -- as you proved to yourself this weekend. Just don't fall for the line

that if you start you can't stop. That's harmed so many people I know, and it's

not true. You can always stop, and you don't need to believe in a beast or

higher power to do it. Just believe that if you start you can stop. If you

start it's not a tragedy. It's something that happened that can be dealt with

responsibly.

It's too bad that you feel that AA is the only place that offers fellowship.

Almost any other group of human beings in the US offers more fellowship than AA,

and in those groups you can talk about really human things, day-to-day stuff

that doesn't have to do with whether you have surrendered or what your higher

power is, but what your boyfriend, husband, mom or kids do, what you are

learning in school or on your job, how your lawn responded to this summers'

drought, where the best sales are, all the stuff that makes up everyday life for

almost everyone but that gets lost under the AA steamroller.

Since getting out from under the AA thumb I've discovered I can talk to almost

anyone about almost anything. I can start conversations with people walking

down the street, or sitting next to me at a bus stop, or in a waiting room,

store clerks, bus drivers, 22 year old girls, 80 year old men, politicians and

executives, psychologists and drunks. These connections, however brief, make me

feel terrific. Before AA I could do this too, but I had almost forgotten what

it felt like. AA told me that I had nothing in common with " earth people " or

" normies, " that my concerns couldn't be the same as theirs, that I couldn't

share in their pursuits or activities, couldn't enjoy the common pleasures of my

fellows.

I can't imagine anything that could do a greater disservice to people in pain.

Shake off the negative influences. It won't happen all at once, but it does get

steadily better.

--

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

'Truth is power.' How cool!!!!!

Very good post. I saw the Matrix too. There's a movie out now called Fight

club that is kind of similar. I'm dying to see it. Not that I approve of

going out and kicking people's asses after a hard day at work. But it tells

a lot about our society. All the suppressed rage and anger with people.

All the silent sufferers stuck in empty lives who would rather do just about

anything than " get emotional. " By emotional I mean, getting angry, sad, and

happy all in an hour. All in a healthy way. I'd love to do that. Some

people go through life in a state of chronic apathy. Not all people. But

some do. I used to be one of them. Matt

>From: kikibaby67@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: Re: possible?

>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 13:26:22 -0700

>

>jack,

>

> thanks for writing back. i was hoping you hadn't given up on me. i

>was so glad to see all the postings. my heart rose. you are

>uncompromising and that is good. i should know better than to think

>that all that powerlessness and hyprocracy and self doubt could coexist

>in harmony with self determination and, empowerment, etc. it's wierd

>what kind of people support aa. a friend of mine was using dialectical

>materialism to show me how all this stuff could coexist and work.

>that's funny. i asked him, why are you so stuck on aa? he said, because

>i see people with drinking or drug problems go to aa and they don't

>drink or use. i probably wouldn't drink or use if i joined scientolgy

>either but people don't get the similarities. i saw the movie the

>matrix before i made the decision to leave aa and drink. ( i wasn't

>really planning on drinking to excess but just being able to make my

>own decisions) anyways, the premise of the movie to me is that truth is

>power. and that if there exists a material basis to do something then

>you can do it. You are the One. You have the Power. No,you can't walk

>through walls and all that stuff cause there's no basis for that. But

>there is a basis for me to be able to walk with my head up, full of

>self confidence. Thank you for telling me to reclaim my power. it's not

>some higher power. it's just me. aa will keep me from being lonely but

>it'll will never tell me i have power. I wanted self confidence from

>them but in the all i got was lack of confidence. I would have

>eventually learned how to relate to people without drinking. I could

>have seen a therapist. who knows.

> you know i didn't have a sense of how programmed i was. when i was

>first checking out anti cult sites which lead me here eventually, i

>suspected aa had cult like qualitites, but then, everything seems to.

>what the f-- is the christian church or anything that gets promoted in

>this society. So, a little cultishness is alright I guessed. I kind of

>liked it anyways cause it gives you a sense of identity. But then I had

>this sort of revelation that I needed to get out of there and make my

>own choices, etc. I thought i was through with them. Now i see how

>ingrained it is. it was easier when i had the prospect of drinking

>cause that was something exciting and comforting to look forward to on

>occaision. but now i'm scared of it. not cause i'll run over somebody.

>i called for a ride from my " your an alcoholic and just get used to

>it. " house mates rather than risk driving. i don't have a beer and end

>up on skid row. it's that i might have a few beers and not do

>anything with my life and worse: I'll start having those aa fear

>flashes of thinking i'm a loser and that i'm out of control cause i

>have a few beers or 10.

> But now i'm trying to get out of aa without all the promise of a

>cold one and the imagined good times to come. whoah, that's different.

>it's just gonna be me. when i came into aa " me " was a failure. Now " me "

>is diseased person with tons of character defects. I gotta find that

>self empowered " me " . I'm an activist. I do good work. Well, I try

>anyways. My life isn't dedicated to just getting mine. I have goals and

>aspirations and I put time into those. My friends that I work with on

>these projects are always telling what a contribution I make and so on.

>But all the good stuff i hear kind of melts on the surface and the bad

>stuff lays there like a rock. but, you know, aa never helped me with

>that. Now i was a loser in aa, too. you're late, you didn't go, you

>missed your committment, you didn't follow sponsor direction, you

>didn;t call your sponsor, you didn't go to whatever aa event, you not

>successful enough, you not working the steps or not doing them

>properly, you haven't found your touchy feely higher power...YOU'RE A

>LOSER!!! I must like abuse. Every wednesday I would go to my meeting

>and meet my sponsor out in front during the break and she would yell at

>me. I'd go back in shaken and confused and try to redicate myself to

>doing it the " right " way. I don't think these folks are conciously

>trying to do some mind control bit but they sure could write a book on

>it.

> Jack, I not ready at this moment to say that i'll never drink again

>ever! I do appreciate that no one berated me here for drinking. I knew

>i could be totally honest here but i wasn't sure. i committed to a non

>aa(but aa lovin) friend that I wouldn't drink for 6 months. i know now

>that drinking is over rated and a poor subsitute for real living.

>hitting the ball at some stupid company softball team game would feel a

>hell of a lot better than 3 pints of ale. I am ready to give my friends

>here a chance. this is the deal. aa will be there. I am going to make a

>committment to my own power and not go to aa this weekend. and i'm

>gonna throw away that stupid big book. I'm gonna feel nervous and

>insane and lonely and bored. I know that. but i'm just gonna feel it.

>get some exercise. see a movie. i may start looking up that rational

>intelligence stuff was talking about. i know the beast is still in

>there or i would just go to the rr site and do it. but at this very

>moment i gotta get some distance between me and aa. that scares the

>beast and i think the prospect if drinking again kind of keeps it

>settled. i know this all sounds weird. i also know that right now

>drinking = AA.

> not to be gushing with gratitude but thanks. i love this list.

>

> -kiki

>

>

>jackandj-@... wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8620

> > You're an atheist, and going to church makes sense.

> >

> > You think there's some sense in AA and you're determined to find it.

> > (A hint: if any drinking causes you trouble, whether work, self

>doubt,

> > relationships, legal, depression, etc) then it makes sense to quit

> > drinking once and for all, and never to change your mind. If that's

> > true, have you ever! heard that message at AA. )

> >

> > You know what you're going to find when you get there, but you feel

> > compelled to go back for some more.

> >

> > You did enough AVRT learning to recognize the beast and not enough to

> > recognize it as " not you, but it "

> >

> > In you're very first post, you were ecstatic to find a place to vent

> > your hatred of 12step and religion and cults and sponsers and all the

> > bullshit.

> >

> > You managed to stick around and put up with the bullshit of AA for 2

> > 1/2 (not 21) years and cnat seem to give your new friends and your new

> > freedom more than 2 weeks to see how it/they fit you or how well you

> > can adapt to fit it.

> >

> > Did you notice that no one here seemed to mind that you had a drink or

> > ten? We have no doctrine on the subject. Each person has to make his

> > own decisions as to what's right.

> >

> > You answer all of your own questions quite honestly.

> >

> > You hold deeply ingrained beliefs that you don't want to change and

> > they are in conflict with each other.

> > Which beliefs are your true ones. Atheism, self determination, and

> > personal power, and a pursuit of art, music and a productive happy

>life

> > life , or powerlessness, god control, fear, unhappiness, hypocrisy,

> > confession, repentense, pennance, and misery. What do you really

> > believe, and where will you find each group?

> >

> > following is the text of your private email to me which was received

> > but not answered on Tuesday 10/12

> > Please re-read your own words. Then re-read what you posted to the

> > group which follows that.

> > Make up your mind, stick with your decision, and get on with your

>life.

> > For the life of me, I can't figure out how you can have it both ways.

> >

> > I too wish you luck, sobriety, happiness and honesty. But I can't

>tell

> > you what to do because that would make me your sponsor. I do recommend

> > that you become a POWER and take control of your life. No one at AA

>is

> > ever going to ever give you permission to think for yourself, but I

>do.

> >

> >

> > " Jack,

> > thank you for your emails. If I didn't (have) this voice

> > of reason I think I'd have to give in and do what they

> > want. I did go out and drink this weekend. It's was

> > okay, but then I drank the next day and then I began

> > to feel like I was out of control. Okay,

> > intellectually I told myself this is AA brainwashing.

> > It's probably not the best thing for me to go back

> > into a habit of avoidance and solace through alcohol.

> > But I started feeling like I was going to spin out of

> > control. I also started thinking, look, they're all

> > right. I can't stop. I'm insane. I had a few drinks a

> > couple of nights in a row and i felt like i was going

> > to end up in hospitalks, etc. It doesn't help that I

> > had to hide from everyone cause my housemates are good

> > people and believe I'm an alcoholic cause everybody in

> > AA is an alcholic. I'm just in denial.

> > I learned that folks from the 12step free group

> > were right. Somebody said if I drink I'll propbably go

> > running back to AA. That's what happened. I did it out

> > of the insistence of a friend. I didn't want to go but

> > agreed I probably should. The whole fear thing that

> > happened was scary. Before I went to a meeting I

> > realized that drinking wasn't all that I hoped it

> > would be. And that I had greater plans and hopes for

> > my life than that. It's no replacement for a life well

> > lived. It can be an addition to it but you gotta live

> > and maybe enjoy a drink no the other way around. At

> > any rate I realized that maybe I do have a problem.

> > I've never not drank compulsively. I don't know how

> > it's done. It's possible I can learn that. It's

> > possible that I can't or that I wouldn't want to.(

> > Drinking one beer does nothing to me.) But I felt in

> > control. It's an easy choice. Do interesting things

> > and be happy and productive or run around chasing

> > happiness and not accomplishing a whole lot. It felt

> > good to understand my limitations for now at least and

> > make my own decision. If I'm going to be abstinent I

> > gotta make the choice not someone else. I did and felt

> > good about it.

> > Later that day I went to AA. I promised a friend. I

> > didn't do the whole hand raising newcomer deal. I

> > couldn't say " Hi, Bob " whenever Bob spoke. I listened

> > and some of it was good. The speaker has felt how I

> > have felt, etc. and then they go off into mystical

> > never never land with the Big Book and all the other

> > gobblying guk. I want to stand up and scream: What a

> > bunch of Bullsh**! Who the hell are Bill and Bob and

> > why is some book one of them wrote the bible for

> > alcoholics? There's no science in it. At any rate, I'm

> > alright then, but I have a hard time seeing how I can

> > reconcile what I think and what they spout. They are

> > bigger and stronger and I wouldn't win. I'm atheist,

> > though, so I'd always have criticism. But that gets

> > burried after a while for the sake of unity and

> > recovery. I've done all they've asked. I've gotten

> > down on my knees and said the third step prayer. How

> > sick is that. I feel dirty afterwords but what else

> > can I do. If I'm truly as sick as they say I am and

> > this is the only solution then I'd better try it.

> > I went to another meeting last night. The speaker

> > was funny, but this was his life. Gotta hit your

> > meetings. Gotta read 3 pages out of the Big Book every

> > day. I'm thinking, " why? " While I'm in the meeting. My

> > spirit starts sinking. I am starting to feel anguish

> > over losing my time. My whole positive understanding

> > of taking charge of my abstinence from my own

> > understanding and goals is sinking away. That whole AA

> > anxiety started setting in. I don't know how to

> > describe it. It's a feeling that says, you're sick.

> > you need help. you're out of control. you need to call

> > you sponsor and hit 90 in 90. you need to go back to

> > your old group and raise your hand as a newcomer and

> > feel the humiliation. you need to start counting the

> > days again. Another part of me is nasiated by the

> > whole idea. what happened to my own power? So, I've

> > been reading the aadeprogramming site today. I am

> > going to find how i felt before i went back to AA. I'm

> > not gonna drink right now cause I want to live and I

> > don't want to have to run back to AA. I also don't

> > know if i can do it the way I want to be able to do it

> > and if not i need to leave it alone for a while.

> > I've got good friends. They mean well. They gave

> > me the number of a sober guy that's not that much into

> > the religious aspect. i'm sure he's a nice guy, but i

> > don't want to get hooked on aa. i'd rather be hooked

> > on exercising or making music or anything but the

> > constant self analyzation of my numerous character

> > defects.

> >

> > kiki

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > kikibaby6-@... wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8609

> > > So, I'm at the point now where I'm gonna go back to AA. I'm gonna

> > check

> > > it out and see if I can make some use of it. It's hard because so

>much

> > > of it is nonsensense, but I think that I need some kind of support.

>I

> > > checked out the RR site. It's really cool and very funny. The last

> > part

> > > was challenging and I didn't do it cause I didn't want to break the

> > > oath. That was probably the beast they refer to. I'm cool, though,

>I'm

> > > not going off some binging deep end. But there is some part of me in

> > > the back of my head that says you need the collectivity of aa. I

>agree

> > > with alot of what I hear around here and on the aadeprogramming site

> > > and so on. It is scary to see people, intelligent people, turned

>into

> > > drones. I wonder if I have some of that recoery group disorder that

> > > the RR site talks about. I went out over the weekend. I felt fine. I

> > > got kinda drunk, but nothing serious. Had a few drinks the next day

> > and

> > > the dread started setting in. It said, " Look at you. You're gonna be

> > > miserable and die in the gutter. You can't stop. Maybe you really

>are

> > > an alcoholic. " I tried to shake it off. I thought something like

>that

> > > might happen, but I couldn't. I feel like AA has some positive

>things

> > > to offer, but unfortunately it's all rooted in this religious

> > > experience deal. I was in a group called Pacific Group. I'm not

> > bashing

> > > at all cause they are good people and they are really active but

>there

> > > is a whole heirarchy, 50's morality bent towards it. It made me

>really

> > > uncomfortable but I tried to shake it off cause I didn't want to get

> > > too critical and not be able to be there--kind of like I am now.

>But,

> > I

> > > don't want to bury my head in the sand anymore. I was at a meeting

>the

> > > other night and this guy went on about the Big Book and reading 3

> > pages

> > > a night and I wanted to jump up and shout, " Why the F-- are you

> > telling

> > > people they need to read that crap. It's folklore. It's not

> > scientific.

> > > It's a bunch of gobblygook about a religious experience your not

>gonna

> > > have cause there aint no god! " But I didn't cause I'm not stupid.

> > > So back to my original question. Can you go to AA and look at

>the

> > > program from a materialist perspective. Take the good and discard

>the

> > > bad. Or is it this Goliath that will eat your little effort at

> > > scientific evaluation up and spit out a 12 step muttering drone. I

> > > don't think I could ever turn totally into that but I know it's hard

> > to

> > > get out. It's not as easy as recognizing the downside. But what

>about

> > > fear and loneliness and life. AA seems there for that.

> > > That's all. I know I'm prone to vacillation but I'm just trying to

> > > understand mor of what is happening. thanks -kiki

> > >

> >

>

>

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I love that! Intellectual kindergarten!

[Guest guest]

I love that! Intellectual kindergarten!