Re: Kaminer's book my ranting

October 9, 1999

The people I know (knew?) from AA who seem to have a grip on things,

know that 90% of it is BS, and have managed to talk with each other

" behind the scenes " to dismiss the bullshit. The last woman who

sponsored me has an ability to stay down to earth and still go to AA.

She goes to speak, and not to " learn " . I would describe her as an

academic. A university professor in fact. She has had an analyst for 12

years, and I think this helps. A psychoanalyst can be helpful in

grounding people. Long term psychoanalysis is rare these days

though.... Sort of a luxury really. In fact, I've often thought that

maybe if she stopped going to AA, she could do without a therapist.

She's an atheist too, but she still manages to win the respect of

people in one of the " Christianity run riot " type meetings. Except of

course the occasional member who won't speak to her because she doesn't

have a higher power.

One thing she said to me near the end of my attendance was that I

needed to debrief after meetings. Something I wasn't able to do

previously. This means talking over the contents of the meeting with

someone who has a grip on reality in order to separate the wheat from

the chaff if you will.

I find that young people, and those with a weak sense of self are the

ones who can really get screwed by the program. The arrogant male

archetype for which the program was founded had an overdeveloped sense

of self, and was not as suggestible as the young...

AA is not going to die. It just isn't. What is the best thing that we

as a group (or as individuals) can do to improve the situation? The

gears are still spinning in my head...

Apple

dmarcoo-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8535

> having not read the book i cant say what her rational may have been.

> but i do belive aa enjoys a privlidged status as a " self help " group

> from many people, msot of whom have no knowledge of what goes on

> there. AA is not a self help group. if anyone were to say they can

grow

> and be responsiable for themselves in a aa meeting they would be

> laughed at, if not in the meeting than certainly in coffee talk

> afterwards..

>

> i think people WANT to belive in aa, even thsoe outside of it. they

> want to belive there is something out there for people in trouble, or

> if a loved one is in trouble they can feel confident they know where

> they should go. Unfortunaly they only knowledge they have is based on

> societys unthinking acceptance of aa into the collective unconcious

> mainly becasue its been around so long and has portrayed itself as THE

> anwser to alcoholism. not to mention the protection and promotion it

> enjoys from teh government and treatment industry and the media

> ( " nightline " ... shudder...).

>

> its for this reason i think people withhold alot of critism of aa,

they

> think " it can be what i think it may be, its helped so many people " or

> becaue they are overwhelmed with a the aa newcomer treatment

(welcomes,

> phone numbers etc) they are heistant to bash thr program of all those

> welcoming people. (nevermind they belive if they dont welcome you in

> they will drink)

>

> even i when i first went in to aa, i left after 18 days sober (thats

> another story) and when a friend asked my why dont i go any longer, i

> said i thought it was " a depressing place, very masochistic " . which

> was apparent to me, yet

> there was no way i could have understood how much so then, after just

> 17 days. i still thought at that time that some people need aa and

that

> it probaly more to it than what i saw. well, more of the same i

guess.

>

> the vast majority of information comes on aa from the aa

> member/treatment industry (who are one in the same), a court system

> looking for the easy way out, and from people who are not exposed to

aa

> enough to see " how it works " and yet remain unconverted.

>

> also i think there is alck of understanding by average amerciana,

> professionals in in psychotherapy and in media on what a cult is and

> how it works (cult probably get 1 page in a psych 101 text book. its

> not mainstream threapy and thus pays nothing to understand it)

>

> when we think of what a cult is and does, images are what we mainly

> rely on in. the first images we have were created by entertainment

> industry (guys in black robes performing sacrifices etc) or the famous

> " scenes " we have witness on news, stown Masacre, Waco, Heavens

Gate

> etc) but none of those " images " says anything on how the cult actualy

> worked to manipulate its members. thsoe are all the aftermaths of the

> cults presence. their is no awareness or perceived need to have

> awarness in our country on how a cult works to retain members.

>

> i remember when heavens gate happened, i was in aa. i asked my sponsor

> how is it so many inteligent people couldnt see they were in a cult?

> (at that time i was becoming more and more aware of what was going on

> around me. i was waking up)

>

> he said absolutly nothing in response. and hes silence spoke volumes.

> he would be first person in room to tell you aa wasnt a cult, but he

> probably couldnt tell you what a cult was or how it worked eitehr. i

> belive he couldnt think about how a cult works very long without

seeing

> the similarites. easier to not think about it i suppsoe.

>

> whew! that was a long rant.

>

> Dave

>

> railroadrit-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8533

> > > Anyone interested on a refreshing look at these recovery cults

> should

> > > check out

> > > Kaminer's book, " I'm Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional "

> which

> > > came out

> > > in 1992. It's a look at how ill prepared these cults are at

> providing

> > > actual support to their followers.

> >

October 9, 1999

true aa isnt goin to die, but i see no way it can be improved either.

its built on a foundation of bs that is going to go away. hell its bs

from top to bottom. it will never evolve to a level i consider

legitmate becasue it rejects and refuses to acknowldge outside

influences and methods. rather than spending time trying to " improve

aa " ( you can spend a 1000 liftimes and not acomplish much to that

end), i would encourage people to try differnt programs, to at very

least be aware of breadth of beliefs concerning sobriety. that alone

would do more to help the majority of alcholics than trying to fix aa.

i would rather support the ones who see the bs and give them and ear

that will listen and which wont tell them they are on verge of being a

dry drunk. i see no attibute to aa which can be seen as a postive which

any other sobreity program doesnt also have, sans the cult mind control

BS.

appledt-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8537

> The people I know (knew?) from AA who seem to have a grip on things,

> know that 90% of it is BS, and have managed to talk with each other

> " behind the scenes " to dismiss the bullshit. The last woman who

> sponsored me has an ability to stay down to earth and still go to AA.

> She goes to speak, and not to " learn " . I would describe her as an

> academic. A university professor in fact. She has had an analyst for

12

> years, and I think this helps. A psychoanalyst can be helpful in

> grounding people. Long term psychoanalysis is rare these days

> though.... Sort of a luxury really. In fact, I've often thought that

> maybe if she stopped going to AA, she could do without a therapist.

> She's an atheist too, but she still manages to win the respect of

> people in one of the " Christianity run riot " type meetings. Except of

> course the occasional member who won't speak to her because she

doesn't

> have a higher power.

>

> One thing she said to me near the end of my attendance was that I

> needed to debrief after meetings. Something I wasn't able to do

> previously. This means talking over the contents of the meeting with

> someone who has a grip on reality in order to separate the wheat from

> the chaff if you will.

>

> I find that young people, and those with a weak sense of self are the

> ones who can really get screwed by the program. The arrogant male

> archetype for which the program was founded had an overdeveloped sense

> of self, and was not as suggestible as the young...

>

> AA is not going to die. It just isn't. What is the best thing that we

> as a group (or as individuals) can do to improve the situation? The

> gears are still spinning in my head...

>

> Apple

>

> dmarcoo-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8535

> > having not read the book i cant say what her rational may have been.

> > but i do belive aa enjoys a privlidged status as a " self help " group

> > from many people, msot of whom have no knowledge of what goes on

> > there. AA is not a self help group. if anyone were to say they can

> grow

> > and be responsiable for themselves in a aa meeting they would be

> > laughed at, if not in the meeting than certainly in coffee talk

> > afterwards..

> >

> > i think people WANT to belive in aa, even thsoe outside of it. they

> > want to belive there is something out there for people in trouble,

or

> > if a loved one is in trouble they can feel confident they know where

> > they should go. Unfortunaly they only knowledge they have is based

on

> > societys unthinking acceptance of aa into the collective unconcious

> > mainly becasue its been around so long and has portrayed itself as

THE

> > anwser to alcoholism. not to mention the protection and promotion it

> > enjoys from teh government and treatment industry and the media

> > ( " nightline " ... shudder...).

> >

> > its for this reason i think people withhold alot of critism of aa,

> they

> > think " it can be what i think it may be, its helped so many people "

or

> > becaue they are overwhelmed with a the aa newcomer treatment

> (welcomes,

> > phone numbers etc) they are heistant to bash thr program of all

those

> > welcoming people. (nevermind they belive if they dont welcome you

in

> > they will drink)

> >

> > even i when i first went in to aa, i left after 18 days sober (thats

> > another story) and when a friend asked my why dont i go any longer,

i

> > said i thought it was " a depressing place, very masochistic " . which

> > was apparent to me, yet

> > there was no way i could have understood how much so then, after

just

> > 17 days. i still thought at that time that some people need aa and

> that

> > it probaly more to it than what i saw. well, more of the same i

> guess.

> >

> > the vast majority of information comes on aa from the aa

> > member/treatment industry (who are one in the same), a court system

> > looking for the easy way out, and from people who are not exposed to

> aa

> > enough to see " how it works " and yet remain unconverted.

> >

> > also i think there is alck of understanding by average amerciana,

> > professionals in in psychotherapy and in media on what a cult is and

> > how it works (cult probably get 1 page in a psych 101 text book. its

> > not mainstream threapy and thus pays nothing to understand it)

> >

> > when we think of what a cult is and does, images are what we mainly

> > rely on in. the first images we have were created by entertainment

> > industry (guys in black robes performing sacrifices etc) or the

famous

> > " scenes " we have witness on news, stown Masacre, Waco, Heavens

> Gate

> > etc) but none of those " images " says anything on how the cult

actualy

> > worked to manipulate its members. thsoe are all the aftermaths of

the

> > cults presence. their is no awareness or perceived need to have

> > awarness in our country on how a cult works to retain members.

> >

> > i remember when heavens gate happened, i was in aa. i asked my

sponsor

> > how is it so many inteligent people couldnt see they were in a cult?

> > (at that time i was becoming more and more aware of what was going

on

> > around me. i was waking up)

> >

> > he said absolutly nothing in response. and hes silence spoke

volumes.

> > he would be first person in room to tell you aa wasnt a cult, but he

> > probably couldnt tell you what a cult was or how it worked eitehr. i

> > belive he couldnt think about how a cult works very long without

> seeing

> > the similarites. easier to not think about it i suppsoe.

> >

> > whew! that was a long rant.

> >

> > Dave

> >

> > railroadrit-@... wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

533

> > > > Anyone interested on a refreshing look at these recovery cults

> > should

> > > > check out

> > > > Kaminer's book, " I'm Dysfunctional, You're Dysfunctional "

> > which

> > > > came out

> > > > in 1992. It's a look at how ill prepared these cults are at

> > providing

> > > > actual support to their followers.

> > >

>

October 9, 1999