Re: Kaminer's book my ranting

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/10/99 6:52:29 PM Central Daylight Time,

Steamalki@... writes:

> I know you all think you are a bunch of smart asses.........All I ask is

that

>

> you quit sending me crap. Do you think you can manage that?

No, we will NEVER stop! We will keep filling your mailbox until you admit

that you are powerless to figure out how to remove yourself from this mailing

list!

[Guest guest]

" joe b. " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8555

> The current 12 step proliferation is answering,

very crudely, a need for people

> to help themselves and one another with their addictions.

>

-------------------------------

Yes. I think that's the sum total knowledge most doctors,

therapists, etc. who recommend AA/NA to people have -- that it's a

group of people with a common problem helping each other; strength in

numbers etc. And I think there are an incredible number of people who

" put up " (sometimes just barely) with the evangelical pseudo-Xtianity,

the anti-intellectualism, and such simply to continue to have that

strength in numbers.

I think the best hope of hastening the " falling back into the

shadows " of XA is to emphasize to all and sundry, but especially to

doctors and other interested professionals, the " people helping

themselves and each other " aspect of non-12-step, pro-intellect groups

such as SMART. (This said even though I did not find SMART

particularly inspiring for myself -- there will always be

non-group-oriented folks out there too, whose style deserves

validation.)

~Rita

--------------------------------------------

Apple wrote:

>

> >Good point Joe... it is going to die sometime... but when, and how...

> >did the Roman empire fizzle out? The Third Riech died out when the

war

> >ended, but AA won't die because of a war. I think that the movement

> >will improve in some places, because with more & more anti-AA

> >books/internet presence, it looks dumb to keep it as it is, but I

don't

> >see it dying out in my lifetime. What do you think?

>Apple

>

> I think that its current unearned hold over the addictions field will

> diminish markedly in my lifetime. As other programs catch on and can

be

> seen to offer various plus points that AA doesn't, the idea that

seems so

> hard to shift- that AA is the best or only program, will just slowly

wither

> away. You can't claim to be the best and offer no evidence to support

that

> claim indefinitely. I think AA will become an option, rather than THE

> option, and it will be known as a religiously oriented program, and

and be

> regarded as fine for those who would naturally gravitate to that sort

of

> thing and who can make it work for them, but by no means the only

choice

> and not necessarily the best choice. It sounds strange in a way to

say this

> now, but the current saturation with 12 step recovery books and

programs is

> only happening because of a historical accident- AA, relatively

ineffective

> as it is, has been around a long time and has aquired a place in the

> mythology of our time, and a lot of people have got involved with it.

The

> current 12 step proliferation is answering, very crudely, a need for

people

> to help themselves and one another with their addictions. But it in

no way

> represents a fixed entity that cannot be mostly swept away by better

> things. I think it will eventually acquire a similar status to what

faith

> healing has now.

>

[Guest guest]

Just lacking self esteem and a life style.

Using drugs comes with an automatic social life, a

purpose to get up and out every day (to score) and

then something to do (use it) and then to enjoy being

high with your friends. It's a life style. It's hard

to trade that in for a life on your own and be forced

to find friends, a job, hobbies, things to make you

feel that life has a purpose.

--- Jero199919@... wrote:

> maybe we're maladaptive people trying to become

> adaptive. Or perhaps

> dysfunctional trying to become functional? -jerry

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Your higher power must be trying to tell you something! You better go home

now and call your sponsor.

[Guest guest]

At 07:44 PM 10/10/99 EDT, you wrote:

>I know you all think you are a bunch of smart asses.........All I ask is

that

>you quit sending me crap. Do you think you can manage that?

Who are you talking to?

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

I apologize for calling anyone a smart ass. I was frustrated because I had

subscribed under two screen names and only wanted to receive mail under

steamalki. I couldn't figure out how to unsubscribe, even though I

unsubscribed per e mail instructions I keep getting e mail. Will have to

work on my anger more. Again I am sorry I lost my cool and apologize to all.

I hope you will please try to understand as recently I stooped going to AA

meetings because I couldn't buy into all that magical thinking.

[Guest guest]

I apologize for calling anyone a smart ass. I was frustrated because I had

subscribed under two screen names and only wanted to receive mail under

steamalki. I couldn't figure out how to unsubscribe, even though I

unsubscribed per e mail instructions I keep getting e mail. Will have to

work on my anger more. Again I am sorry I lost my cool and apologize to all.

I hope you will please try to understand as recently I stooped going to AA

meetings because I couldn't buy into all that magical thinking.

[Guest guest]

Puh-leez, no electronic billboards for me. I don't want someone reading, " She's

too short to wear that really big print, " or " I've answered that question a

million times, so look it up, damnit, " or whatever unkind thought may occur to

me (as they do to all of us) that I nevertheless would not utter.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>I think AA will evolve into something else. In a thousand years from now

>someone who develops " living problems " will have better options than we have

>as far as getting help. Just like 100 years ago, people with drinking

>problems were locked up in an asylum. Things have improved some what but

>unfortunately as we approach the year 2000, the way society chooses to help

>its less fortunate is far from ideal.

> The way I see it, those individuals who screw up or fall on their face

>are given few options: go to AA or be institutionalized. Hopefully, as

>mankind evolves and are thinking progresses we will find more options for

>those of us who need a help with self destructive habits and low self

>esteem.

> I'm not real sure about this religious dependence in America though.

>That may last forever, no matter what the consequences. People in the US

>may forever think spirituality and God is a necessary part of society. I'd

>like to think that maybe one day spirituality could be replaced by a strong

>belief in humanity. That are hope or positivity could stem from a faith in

>humanism rather than some invisible man in the sky who sees everything we

>do.

> Of course that may sound crazy to Christians and other religious

>people. I think as long as people are ashamed of their humanity and they're

>dark desires they will turn to god or anytype of higher power to cling to.

>As long as we Americans can't acknowledge are so called " dark sides " and

>unhealthy thoughts we are going to have a lot of confusion about how to

>peacefully co-exist.

> A lot of times I wish every person on this planet could have an

>electronic billboard on their forehead that shows what they are thinking.

>Then we wouldn't have any secrets or lies or reasons to hide our true

>selves. Maybe then all this misunderstanding and miscommunication could be

>eliminated in this country. We could finally realize that everyone whose

>human has worries and difficulties and concerns. And that we are very

>similar. The only thing that's different is how we react to these daily

>difficulties.

> Anyway, that's just my opinion.

>

>

>>

>>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>Subject: Re: Kaminer's book my ranting

>>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 03:46:37 +0100

>>

>>At 06:28 PM 09/10/99 -0700, you wrote:

>>

>><snipped>

>>

>> >AA is not going to die. It just isn't.

>>

>> >Apple

>>

>>Don't be so sure. They must have said the same thing about the Roman

>>empire, and the Third Reich. Nothing is invulnerable to the forces of

>>change and decay, and to its own weaknesses.

>>

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

>> - Simplifying group communications

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>______________________________________________________

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

Puh-leez, no electronic billboards for me. I don't want someone reading, " She's

too short to wear that really big print, " or " I've answered that question a

million times, so look it up, damnit, " or whatever unkind thought may occur to

me (as they do to all of us) that I nevertheless would not utter.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>I think AA will evolve into something else. In a thousand years from now

>someone who develops " living problems " will have better options than we have

>as far as getting help. Just like 100 years ago, people with drinking

>problems were locked up in an asylum. Things have improved some what but

>unfortunately as we approach the year 2000, the way society chooses to help

>its less fortunate is far from ideal.

> The way I see it, those individuals who screw up or fall on their face

>are given few options: go to AA or be institutionalized. Hopefully, as

>mankind evolves and are thinking progresses we will find more options for

>those of us who need a help with self destructive habits and low self

>esteem.

> I'm not real sure about this religious dependence in America though.

>That may last forever, no matter what the consequences. People in the US

>may forever think spirituality and God is a necessary part of society. I'd

>like to think that maybe one day spirituality could be replaced by a strong

>belief in humanity. That are hope or positivity could stem from a faith in

>humanism rather than some invisible man in the sky who sees everything we

>do.

> Of course that may sound crazy to Christians and other religious

>people. I think as long as people are ashamed of their humanity and they're

>dark desires they will turn to god or anytype of higher power to cling to.

>As long as we Americans can't acknowledge are so called " dark sides " and

>unhealthy thoughts we are going to have a lot of confusion about how to

>peacefully co-exist.

> A lot of times I wish every person on this planet could have an

>electronic billboard on their forehead that shows what they are thinking.

>Then we wouldn't have any secrets or lies or reasons to hide our true

>selves. Maybe then all this misunderstanding and miscommunication could be

>eliminated in this country. We could finally realize that everyone whose

>human has worries and difficulties and concerns. And that we are very

>similar. The only thing that's different is how we react to these daily

>difficulties.

> Anyway, that's just my opinion.

>

>

>>

>>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>Subject: Re: Kaminer's book my ranting

>>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 03:46:37 +0100

>>

>>At 06:28 PM 09/10/99 -0700, you wrote:

>>

>><snipped>

>>

>> >AA is not going to die. It just isn't.

>>

>> >Apple

>>

>>Don't be so sure. They must have said the same thing about the Roman

>>empire, and the Third Reich. Nothing is invulnerable to the forces of

>>change and decay, and to its own weaknesses.

>>

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

>> - Simplifying group communications

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>______________________________________________________

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

We'd love to but we can't control the list. The

messages go to all on the list.

I keep my crap from my smart ass to myself anyhow.

Lugnut

--- Steamalki@... wrote:

> I know you all think you are a bunch of smart

> asses.........All I ask is that

> you quit sending me crap. Do you think you can

> manage that?

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> eGroups.com home:

> /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group

> communications

>

>

>

>

>

=====

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__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

How did that person figure out I was a smart ass? Its strange, most people

in society call me a smart ass. But my family always calls me a " dumb ass " I

can't figure it out(joke).

I had to go to church this weekend for a wedding. It was the longest

hour of my life. The priest was so serious and dour. Very difficult to

understand. I don't know why the catholic church has to be so solemn and

humor-less. Is it really necessary?

But the wedding reception was fun. Seeing my family and stuff. One

thing drove me nuts. My brother the AA member skipped the mass and only

went to the reception for about 20 minutes. He showed up with this girl

he'd met " through his AA friends. " And he told me he was leaving to go

attend a wedding of one of his " AA friends. "

Of course, lots of people were drinking in my family. (hell, its a

wedding reception, what do you expect?). But I wasn't drinking anything but

cokes. And I had a great time. Yes, even talking to my buzzed cousins and

drunken relatives. I just try to see the good in them. As opposed to being

a judgemental prick.

But my brother had that look of disdain on his face. You could tell he

just wanted to leave. And I'm sure he was telling his AA friends how f'd up

his family is.

That's what AA does to its members. Four years ago, my brother would

have stayed all night, drunk or sober. Now, he can't stand to be around the

family for more than 20 minutes.

AA screws up your'e trust level and makes you very hard on non-AA

people. Most members immediately abandon someone as soon as they show

weakness or make mistakes (i.e. have a drink or indulge in a bad habit or

maybe get angry!!).

Of course, people like my brother have an organization of millions

supporting them and feeding there paranoia. Who in AA will tell him he

might be wrong? No one.

So, what are the odds of my brother starting to care about the family

again. Very slim. My family only has about 40 members. AA has millions.

Who can compete with that?

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Kaminer's book my ranting

>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 21:08:44 -0700 (PDT)

>

>We'd love to but we can't control the list. The

>messages go to all on the list.

>I keep my crap from my smart ass to myself anyhow.

>

>Lugnut

>

>--- Steamalki@... wrote:

> > I know you all think you are a bunch of smart

> > asses.........All I ask is that

> > you quit sending me crap. Do you think you can

> > manage that?

> >

> >

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> > eGroups.com home:

> > /group/12-step-free

> > - Simplifying group

> > communications

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>=====

>*ABF Chat Room* http://venus.beseen.com/chat/rooms/f/504839

>*ABF Home Page* http://rosie.acmecity.com/chuckle/160/

>*50's Chevys* http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4753

>*Timeout Dolls* http://timeout-dolls.hypermart.net

>*Bombsight* http://www.classicar.com/bombsight

>__________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Trouble is, I'm afraid we'd see a lot of " I'd like to kill that motherf***er, "

because that's what " I hurt, " and " I'm afraid, " get translated into.

I read an excerpt from a book by Gerry Spence once, or perhaps it was someone

talking about the excerpt, who said that Spence recommended that in order not to

get angry, one must identify the underlying fear, or at least acknowledge it.

Most people won't do that. So I'd be afraid of seeing a lot of rage.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Matt, you sound like a secular humanist. Pretty reasonable. Governments

>want the church in place, because when humans bow to a superior force,

>they metaphorically bow to the government as well.

>I would be frightened as hell to see what people are thinking. I think

>we'd see a lot of " I hurt " , " I'm lonely " , " I'm horny " , " Will someone

>please love me " and the like. We are not a particularly happy species.

>Apple

>> A lot of times I wish every person on this planet could have an

>> electronic billboard on their forehead that shows what they are

>thinking.

>> Then we wouldn't have any secrets or lies or reasons to hide our true

>> selves. Maybe then all this misunderstanding and miscommunication

>could be

>> eliminated in this country. We could finally realize that everyone

>whose

>> human has worries and difficulties and concerns. And that we are

>very

>> similar. The only thing that's different is how we react to these

>daily

>> difficulties.

>> Anyway, that's just my opinion.

>>

>>

>> >

>> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> >To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> >Subject: Re: Kaminer's book my ranting

>> >Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 03:46:37 +0100

>> >

>> >At 06:28 PM 09/10/99 -0700, you wrote:

>> >

>> ><snipped>

>> >

>> > >AA is not going to die. It just isn't.

>> >

>> > >Apple

>> >

>> >Don't be so sure. They must have said the same thing about the Roman

>> >empire, and the Third Reich. Nothing is invulnerable to the forces of

>> >change and decay, and to its own weaknesses.

>> >

>> >

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

jackandjj@... writes:

> (paraphrasing

> the Tim Leary song )

That was Tom Lehrer.

[Guest guest]

Let's not forget that for the " million " or so members of 12 step, there

are " ?20million? " who showed up for a week or two or six and started

thinking like we do. Very, very few went on to death or prison or

insanity. Instead, they took responsibility for thier actions, changed

all or a few habits, grew up, etc. They quietly went home and said,

well maybe for them but not for me, but I won't tell anyone cause I

wouldn't want to keep someone else from getting help if that's what

they need, but they didn't tell everyone they knew that they had ever

been in the first place. The truth is, there is a hell of a lot more

of us than there are of them.

And now there are books that tell the truth, and websites, and

alternatives treatments, and courtcases and people are talking, and

stealth anti-12-steppers inside the treatment centers, and the AAer's

are being made fun of on tv. etc. etc.

It will not take thousands of years! It is happening very quickly and

we are actually able to waatch it with our own eyes. That's why we're

here IMHO, to have a place to vent and deprogram, and a place to plot.

The ones who came and went and did something else to fix their

drug/drink/gamble/whatever problem aren't out suggesting XA to others.

They're whispering to their friends to stay away. We should figure out

how to get them to shout it instead of whisper it.!

But you are right that AA will not go away, it will become one of the

" religions " and be treated as such. While all the religions are fooled

into thinking its inoccuous, they all ignore it. Once it's treated as

a religion it will finally be discredited , as each and every religion

is discredited and blashemied by every other religion. (paraphrasing

the Tim Leary song ) " and the baptists hate the protestants and the

catholics hate the baptists and the 12 steppers hate the protestants

and everyone hates the jews. "

>

> >I think AA will evolve into something else. In a thousand years

from now

> >someone who develops " living problems " will have better options than

we have

> >as far as getting help. Just like 100 years ago, people with

drinking

> >problems were locked up in an asylum. Things have improved some

what but

> >do.

> > Of course that may sound crazy to Christians and other

religious

> >unfortunately as we approach the year 2000, the way society chooses

to help

> >its less fortunate is far from ideal.

> > The way I see it, those individuals who screw up or fall on

their face

> >are given few options: go to AA or be institutionalized.

Hopefully, as

> >mankind evolves and are thinking progresses we will find more

options for

> >those of us who need a help with self destructive habits and low

self

> >esteem.

> > I'm not real sure about this religious dependence in America

though.

> >That may last forever, no matter what the consequences. People in

the US

> >may forever think spirituality and God is a necessary part of

society. I'd

> >like to think that maybe one day spirituality could be replaced by a

strong

> >belief in humanity. That are hope or positivity could stem from a

faith in

> >humanism rather than some invisible man in the sky who sees

everything we

> >people. I think as long as people are ashamed of their humanity and

they're

> >dark desires they will turn to god or anytype of higher power to

cling to.

> >As long as we Americans can't acknowledge are so called " dark sides "

and

> >unhealthy thoughts we are going to have a lot of confusion about how

to

> >peacefully co-exist.

> > A lot of times I wish every person on this planet could have an

> >electronic billboard on their forehead that shows what they are

thinking.

> >Then we wouldn't have any secrets or lies or reasons to hide our

true

> >selves. Maybe then all this misunderstanding and miscommunication

could be

> >eliminated in this country. We could finally realize that everyone

whose

> >human has worries and difficulties and concerns. And that we are

very

> >similar. The only thing that's different is how we react to these

daily

> >difficulties.

> > Anyway, that's just my opinion.

> >

> >

> >>

> >>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >>To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >>Subject: Re: Kaminer's book my ranting

> >>Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 03:46:37 +0100

> >>

> >>At 06:28 PM 09/10/99 -0700, you wrote:

> >>

> >><snipped>

> >>

> >> >AA is not going to die. It just isn't.

> >>

> >> >Apple

> >>

> >>Don't be so sure. They must have said the same thing about the Roman

> >>empire, and the Third Reich. Nothing is invulnerable to the forces

of

> >>change and decay, and to its own weaknesses.

> >>

> >>

> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------

-----

> >>

> >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> >> - Simplifying group communications

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

> >______________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Yaaaay!

I love your " rah-rah " post Jack! FYI, Chaz Bufe, Ken Ragge and Stanton

Peele just collaborated on a book, which ships this month. It's about

how to fight coerced 12 step treatment. Stanton has a blurb about it on

his site www.Peele.net. Rita, were you aware of this?

Apple

>

> And now there are books that tell the truth, and websites, and

> alternatives treatments, and courtcases and people are talking, and

> stealth anti-12-steppers inside the treatment centers, and the AAer's

> are being made fun of on tv. etc. etc.

>

[Guest guest]

Yaaaay!

I love your " rah-rah " post Jack! FYI, Chaz Bufe, Ken Ragge and Stanton

Peele just collaborated on a book, which ships this month. It's about

how to fight coerced 12 step treatment. Stanton has a blurb about it on

his site www.Peele.net. Rita, were you aware of this?

Apple

>

> And now there are books that tell the truth, and websites, and

> alternatives treatments, and courtcases and people are talking, and

> stealth anti-12-steppers inside the treatment centers, and the AAer's

> are being made fun of on tv. etc. etc.

>

[Guest guest]

Steamalki@... wrote:

>

> I have canceled my subscription twice and keep receiving stuff!!!!!!!

>

> Thank you.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, no ,no ,no, thank you. Really, I mean that sincerely.

--

" I cannot believe these barbarians let their toast cool before they butter it " .

[Guest guest]

Steamalki@... wrote:

>

> I have canceled my subscription twice and keep receiving stuff!!!!!!!

>

> Thank you.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, no ,no ,no, thank you. Really, I mean that sincerely.

--

" I cannot believe these barbarians let their toast cool before they butter it " .

[Guest guest]

Steamalki@... wrote:

>

> I know you all think you are a bunch of smart asses.........All I ask is that

> you quit sending me crap. Do you think you can manage that?

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Should I spend any time debating the merit of the " crap " you have been

receiving? An unproductive venture I suspect. I will point out that " we " have

sent you nothing. You have taken steps all on your own to tell an automated

server at egroups to send you the contents of this list. I'm not sure why you

are trying to offload the responsibility for your technological ignorance on

" us " . " Turn the pod HAL... HAL, turn the pod around - I think we're safe now

Dave " .

--

" So, you say He knew his only son was going to be nailed to a cross? "

[Guest guest]

>

> > (paraphrasing

> > the Tim Leary song )

>

> That was Tom Lehrer.

>

>

Oops! Shoot my editor! I thought I had it right, my apologies