Re: School guide drops word 'evolution'

[Guest guest]

Hello Matt

I think you are absolutely right. The creationist phenomonon shows how

that in the scientifically most advanced nation on earth huge swathes

of the population are bound in ignorance and religious fundamentalism,

and it is in this climate, that ppl can be forced to not only

participate in religious groups like AA in violation of their

Constitutional and Human rights, but ppl deny that it is religious, and

the immense influence of a religious philosophy in addiction science

can be so overwhelming.

Pete

" md matt " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8481

> In my home town, state officials decided yesterday to remove the word

> 'evolution' from grade and middle school books. They decided to

change the

> wording to , " changes over time. " The article was on the front page

of our

> local paper. The teachers are really upset that they're students

will

> graduate without any knowledge of evolution. The officials said they

didn't

> want to interfere with anyone's religious beliefs. A lot of

creationist

> groups were pressuring them to not include the word. Of course, this

is for

> public schools only. I'm not sure how private schools handle it.

> In my opinion, this is outrageous. I think every individual

has a

> right to know about evolution and all the theories about the

beginnings of

> human beings. I don't think this scientific theory is imflammatory

or

> biased. It doesn't say 'this is the way it is.' That's why its a

theory,

> not fact. But its unfortunate that most public school students will

be

> ignorant that there is such a theory. I doubt most will seek it out

on

> there own.

> I remember a friend of mine who is a devoted Christian who told

me she

> couldn't take a Biology class for college because her religion told

her it

> would insult her beliefs. That's pretty bad I think.

> If a person is free thinking and open minded and secure in themselves

they

> should be able to hear anything and everything and

> a) not get defensive

> not attack the person who presents the view and

> c) not try to destroy or bury the message they don't agree with.

> This ties in directly to how I handle 12 step members. I don't

get

> upset when I hear AA language or see the big book. They only time I

get

> upset is when people try to force their beliefs down my throat. And

get me

> to change my views.

> By including the theory of evolution teachers aren't saying

" believe

> this or else " they are simply presenting a theory, take it or leave

it.

> They just want people to learn it and be aware of it. I think our

> government or educational system does children a disservice by trying

to

> hide this theory of life from them.

> I'd love to hear other people's opinions. For some reason, that

> headline really got to me. " school drops word 'evolution. " Yikes!!

What

> will the religious groups try to do next??

>

> ______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hello Matt. I share your outrage. There's only one place we go when we

begin elevating creationsim to the level of science and denigrating

evolution...The Dark Ages!!! This is the kind of sh-- that really

started to get to me about AA. How everybody gets up and says insanely

ridiculous things like :it's good will.. " or " my higher power did all

this for me.. " , etc. This is the eve of the 21st century and we are

behaving like we just got out of a damned cave. Don't believe

evolution???? Take a f-- look around. Look at the nearest pitbull and

ask yourself how in the hell did those jaws get so f-- big and strong?

Breading. It's okay at the racetrak but the idea that development is a

series of mutations and selections is heresy. I've just started

checking out these anti or alternative to AA sites and fankly, this

whole state religion thing scares me. I used to think isn't cool that

the courts give people a chance and send them to AA. Sure, threatening

people with prison for pot or the like is draconian and ridiculous but

sentencing them to religion is scary. I'm still not totally clear on

everything. I'm a little upset and I also a little scared cause I've

lived AA for the past 3 years.

" md matt " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8481

> In my home town, state officials decided yesterday to remove the word

> 'evolution' from grade and middle school books. They decided to

change the

> wording to , " changes over time. " The article was on the front page

of our

> local paper. The teachers are really upset that they're students

will

> graduate without any knowledge of evolution. The officials said they

didn't

> want to interfere with anyone's religious beliefs. A lot of

creationist

> groups were pressuring them to not include the word. Of course, this

is for

> public schools only. I'm not sure how private schools handle it.

> In my opinion, this is outrageous. I think every individual

has a

> right to know about evolution and all the theories about the

beginnings of

> human beings. I don't think this scientific theory is imflammatory

or

> biased. It doesn't say 'this is the way it is.' That's why its a

theory,

> not fact. But its unfortunate that most public school students will

be

> ignorant that there is such a theory. I doubt most will seek it out

on

> there own.

> I remember a friend of mine who is a devoted Christian who told

me she

> couldn't take a Biology class for college because her religion told

her it

> would insult her beliefs. That's pretty bad I think.

> If a person is free thinking and open minded and secure in themselves

they

> should be able to hear anything and everything and

> a) not get defensive

> not attack the person who presents the view and

> c) not try to destroy or bury the message they don't agree with.

> This ties in directly to how I handle 12 step members. I don't

get

> upset when I hear AA language or see the big book. They only time I

get

> upset is when people try to force their beliefs down my throat. And

get me

> to change my views.

> By including the theory of evolution teachers aren't saying

" believe

> this or else " they are simply presenting a theory, take it or leave

it.

> They just want people to learn it and be aware of it. I think our

> government or educational system does children a disservice by trying

to

> hide this theory of life from them.

> I'd love to hear other people's opinions. For some reason, that

> headline really got to me. " school drops word 'evolution. " Yikes!!

What

> will the religious groups try to do next??

>

> ______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hello Matt. I share your outrage. There's only one place we go when we

begin elevating creationsim to the level of science and denigrating

evolution...The Dark Ages!!! This is the kind of sh-- that really

started to get to me about AA. How everybody gets up and says insanely

ridiculous things like :it's good will.. " or " my higher power did all

this for me.. " , etc. This is the eve of the 21st century and we are

behaving like we just got out of a damned cave. Don't believe

evolution???? Take a f-- look around. Look at the nearest pitbull and

ask yourself how in the hell did those jaws get so f-- big and strong?

Breading. It's okay at the racetrak but the idea that development is a

series of mutations and selections is heresy. I've just started

checking out these anti or alternative to AA sites and fankly, this

whole state religion thing scares me. I used to think isn't cool that

the courts give people a chance and send them to AA. Sure, threatening

people with prison for pot or the like is draconian and ridiculous but

sentencing them to religion is scary. I'm still not totally clear on

everything. I'm a little upset and I also a little scared cause I've

lived AA for the past 3 years.

" md matt " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8481

> In my home town, state officials decided yesterday to remove the word

> 'evolution' from grade and middle school books. They decided to

change the

> wording to , " changes over time. " The article was on the front page

of our

> local paper. The teachers are really upset that they're students

will

> graduate without any knowledge of evolution. The officials said they

didn't

> want to interfere with anyone's religious beliefs. A lot of

creationist

> groups were pressuring them to not include the word. Of course, this

is for

> public schools only. I'm not sure how private schools handle it.

> In my opinion, this is outrageous. I think every individual

has a

> right to know about evolution and all the theories about the

beginnings of

> human beings. I don't think this scientific theory is imflammatory

or

> biased. It doesn't say 'this is the way it is.' That's why its a

theory,

> not fact. But its unfortunate that most public school students will

be

> ignorant that there is such a theory. I doubt most will seek it out

on

> there own.

> I remember a friend of mine who is a devoted Christian who told

me she

> couldn't take a Biology class for college because her religion told

her it

> would insult her beliefs. That's pretty bad I think.

> If a person is free thinking and open minded and secure in themselves

they

> should be able to hear anything and everything and

> a) not get defensive

> not attack the person who presents the view and

> c) not try to destroy or bury the message they don't agree with.

> This ties in directly to how I handle 12 step members. I don't

get

> upset when I hear AA language or see the big book. They only time I

get

> upset is when people try to force their beliefs down my throat. And

get me

> to change my views.

> By including the theory of evolution teachers aren't saying

" believe

> this or else " they are simply presenting a theory, take it or leave

it.

> They just want people to learn it and be aware of it. I think our

> government or educational system does children a disservice by trying

to

> hide this theory of life from them.

> I'd love to hear other people's opinions. For some reason, that

> headline really got to me. " school drops word 'evolution. " Yikes!!

What

> will the religious groups try to do next??

>

> ______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hello Matt. I share your outrage. There's only one place we go when we

begin elevating creationsim to the level of science and denigrating

evolution...The Dark Ages!!! This is the kind of sh-- that really

started to get to me about AA. How everybody gets up and says insanely

ridiculous things like :it's good will.. " or " my higher power did all

this for me.. " , etc. This is the eve of the 21st century and we are

behaving like we just got out of a damned cave. Don't believe

evolution???? Take a f-- look around. Look at the nearest pitbull and

ask yourself how in the hell did those jaws get so f-- big and strong?

Breading. It's okay at the racetrak but the idea that development is a

series of mutations and selections is heresy. I've just started

checking out these anti or alternative to AA sites and fankly, this

whole state religion thing scares me. I used to think isn't cool that

the courts give people a chance and send them to AA. Sure, threatening

people with prison for pot or the like is draconian and ridiculous but

sentencing them to religion is scary. I'm still not totally clear on

everything. I'm a little upset and I also a little scared cause I've

lived AA for the past 3 years.

" md matt " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8481

> In my home town, state officials decided yesterday to remove the word

> 'evolution' from grade and middle school books. They decided to

change the

> wording to , " changes over time. " The article was on the front page

of our

> local paper. The teachers are really upset that they're students

will

> graduate without any knowledge of evolution. The officials said they

didn't

> want to interfere with anyone's religious beliefs. A lot of

creationist

> groups were pressuring them to not include the word. Of course, this

is for

> public schools only. I'm not sure how private schools handle it.

> In my opinion, this is outrageous. I think every individual

has a

> right to know about evolution and all the theories about the

beginnings of

> human beings. I don't think this scientific theory is imflammatory

or

> biased. It doesn't say 'this is the way it is.' That's why its a

theory,

> not fact. But its unfortunate that most public school students will

be

> ignorant that there is such a theory. I doubt most will seek it out

on

> there own.

> I remember a friend of mine who is a devoted Christian who told

me she

> couldn't take a Biology class for college because her religion told

her it

> would insult her beliefs. That's pretty bad I think.

> If a person is free thinking and open minded and secure in themselves

they

> should be able to hear anything and everything and

> a) not get defensive

> not attack the person who presents the view and

> c) not try to destroy or bury the message they don't agree with.

> This ties in directly to how I handle 12 step members. I don't

get

> upset when I hear AA language or see the big book. They only time I

get

> upset is when people try to force their beliefs down my throat. And

get me

> to change my views.

> By including the theory of evolution teachers aren't saying

" believe

> this or else " they are simply presenting a theory, take it or leave

it.

> They just want people to learn it and be aware of it. I think our

> government or educational system does children a disservice by trying

to

> hide this theory of life from them.

> I'd love to hear other people's opinions. For some reason, that

> headline really got to me. " school drops word 'evolution. " Yikes!!

What

> will the religious groups try to do next??

>

> ______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

The problem is not where you think it is. Evolution Theory like Relativity

Theory and Quantum Theory are not actually theories in the sense of

alternatives among other hypotheses which you can select at will, according

to your beliefs. They are, all three, to all intents and purposes

established facts and without them we cannot understand the world and the

universe we live in. This is why the religious fundies of all persuasions

are so virulently defensive, for evolution constitutes a direct and

substantiated attack on fundamentalist principles, not just an alternative

option.

PS There are very few educated people in Europe who take creationism

seriously: it is a local US neurosis.

School guide drops word 'evolution'

>In my home town, state officials decided yesterday to remove the word

>'evolution' from grade and middle school books. They decided to change the

>wording to , " changes over time. " The article was on the front page of our

>local paper. The teachers are really upset that they're students will

>graduate without any knowledge of evolution. The officials said they

didn't

>want to interfere with anyone's religious beliefs. A lot of creationist

>groups were pressuring them to not include the word. Of course, this is

for

>public schools only. I'm not sure how private schools handle it.

> In my opinion, this is outrageous. I think every individual has a

>right to know about evolution and all the theories about the beginnings of

>human beings. I don't think this scientific theory is imflammatory or

>biased. It doesn't say 'this is the way it is.' That's why its a theory,

>not fact. But its unfortunate that most public school students will be

>ignorant that there is such a theory. I doubt most will seek it out on

>there own.

> I remember a friend of mine who is a devoted Christian who told me

she

>couldn't take a Biology class for college because her religion told her it

>would insult her beliefs. That's pretty bad I think.

>If a person is free thinking and open minded and secure in themselves they

>should be able to hear anything and everything and

>a) not get defensive

> not attack the person who presents the view and

>c) not try to destroy or bury the message they don't agree with.

> This ties in directly to how I handle 12 step members. I don't get

>upset when I hear AA language or see the big book. They only time I get

>upset is when people try to force their beliefs down my throat. And get me

>to change my views.

> By including the theory of evolution teachers aren't saying " believe

>this or else " they are simply presenting a theory, take it or leave it.

>They just want people to learn it and be aware of it. I think our

>government or educational system does children a disservice by trying to

>hide this theory of life from them.

> I'd love to hear other people's opinions. For some reason, that

>headline really got to me. " school drops word 'evolution. " Yikes!! What

>will the religious groups try to do next??

>

>______________________________________________________

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

<snippage>

The officials said they didn't

> want to interfere with anyone's religious beliefs. A lot of creationist

> groups were pressuring them to not include the word. Of course, this is for

> public schools only. I'm not sure how private schools handle it.

Ah, they don't want to " interfere with anyone's religious beliefs " , so

educationally short-changing these kids is a reasonable trade-off?

ARRRGGGHHH! All this to protect what must be a very fragile, endangered

belief system indeed. If creationism is so frigging valid, why all the

fuss? It should be able to stand up to evolution on it's own if it is

the truth, or even a valid hypothesis. But it's not, so this superstitious

crap, this Sacred Cowshit is going to be protected by watering down what

actually approaches the truth.

I can see your link to the 12-step suppression and condemnation of

valid, healthy, workable recovery methods. It's yet another fragile

belief system, based solely on Holy Writ, that must defend itself against

reason at all costs. Think of all the other fragile belief systems

that people exert so much effort to protect, especially when confronted

with overwhelming evidence otherwise. Not just religious, but cultural

and personal as well...

This pisses me off (which in this case is good), but then again I spent

90 minutes this morning in an Archaeology class that is full of 19-and 20-

year-olds, many of whom believe that Macchu Picchu, the Pyramids of Giza and

other ancient wonders were built by aliens. One girl believes that Noah's

Ark really is on top of Mount Ararat, and has been in a state of perpetual

indignation throughout the lectures on human evolution--necessary for

an understanding of paleoarchaeology, but she's impatient to get on to " real "

archaeology, whatever that may be...

.

> In my opinion, this is outrageous. I think every individual has a

> right to know about evolution and all the theories about the beginnings of

> human beings. I don't think this scientific theory is imflammatory or

> biased. It doesn't say 'this is the way it is.' That's why its a theory,

> not fact. But its unfortunate that most public school students will be

> ignorant that there is such a theory. I doubt most will seek it out on

> there own.

> I remember a friend of mine who is a devoted Christian who told me she

> couldn't take a Biology class for college because her religion told her it

> would insult her beliefs. That's pretty bad I think.

> If a person is free thinking and open minded and secure in themselves they

> should be able to hear anything and everything and

> a) not get defensive

> not attack the person who presents the view and

> c) not try to destroy or bury the message they don't agree with.

> This ties in directly to how I handle 12 step members. I don't get

> upset when I hear AA language or see the big book. They only time I get

> upset is when people try to force their beliefs down my throat. And get me

> to change my views.

> By including the theory of evolution teachers aren't saying " believe

> this or else " they are simply presenting a theory, take it or leave it.

> They just want people to learn it and be aware of it. I think our

> government or educational system does children a disservice by trying to

> hide this theory of life from them.

> I'd love to hear other people's opinions. For some reason, that

> headline really got to me. " school drops word 'evolution. " Yikes!! What

> will the religious groups try to do next??

>

> ______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

<snippage>

The officials said they didn't

> want to interfere with anyone's religious beliefs. A lot of creationist

> groups were pressuring them to not include the word. Of course, this is for

> public schools only. I'm not sure how private schools handle it.

Ah, they don't want to " interfere with anyone's religious beliefs " , so

educationally short-changing these kids is a reasonable trade-off?

ARRRGGGHHH! All this to protect what must be a very fragile, endangered

belief system indeed. If creationism is so frigging valid, why all the

fuss? It should be able to stand up to evolution on it's own if it is

the truth, or even a valid hypothesis. But it's not, so this superstitious

crap, this Sacred Cowshit is going to be protected by watering down what

actually approaches the truth.

I can see your link to the 12-step suppression and condemnation of

valid, healthy, workable recovery methods. It's yet another fragile

belief system, based solely on Holy Writ, that must defend itself against

reason at all costs. Think of all the other fragile belief systems

that people exert so much effort to protect, especially when confronted

with overwhelming evidence otherwise. Not just religious, but cultural

and personal as well...

This pisses me off (which in this case is good), but then again I spent

90 minutes this morning in an Archaeology class that is full of 19-and 20-

year-olds, many of whom believe that Macchu Picchu, the Pyramids of Giza and

other ancient wonders were built by aliens. One girl believes that Noah's

Ark really is on top of Mount Ararat, and has been in a state of perpetual

indignation throughout the lectures on human evolution--necessary for

an understanding of paleoarchaeology, but she's impatient to get on to " real "

archaeology, whatever that may be...

.

> In my opinion, this is outrageous. I think every individual has a

> right to know about evolution and all the theories about the beginnings of

> human beings. I don't think this scientific theory is imflammatory or

> biased. It doesn't say 'this is the way it is.' That's why its a theory,

> not fact. But its unfortunate that most public school students will be

> ignorant that there is such a theory. I doubt most will seek it out on

> there own.

> I remember a friend of mine who is a devoted Christian who told me she

> couldn't take a Biology class for college because her religion told her it

> would insult her beliefs. That's pretty bad I think.

> If a person is free thinking and open minded and secure in themselves they

> should be able to hear anything and everything and

> a) not get defensive

> not attack the person who presents the view and

> c) not try to destroy or bury the message they don't agree with.

> This ties in directly to how I handle 12 step members. I don't get

> upset when I hear AA language or see the big book. They only time I get

> upset is when people try to force their beliefs down my throat. And get me

> to change my views.

> By including the theory of evolution teachers aren't saying " believe

> this or else " they are simply presenting a theory, take it or leave it.

> They just want people to learn it and be aware of it. I think our

> government or educational system does children a disservice by trying to

> hide this theory of life from them.

> I'd love to hear other people's opinions. For some reason, that

> headline really got to me. " school drops word 'evolution. " Yikes!! What

> will the religious groups try to do next??

>

> ______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi All

I agree that Evolution is so well-established that it is generally

accepted by scientists as established fact. As well as evidence like

the fossil record, and breeding, there are examples of evolution that

have occured during recent history - for example, nineteenth century

air pollution brought abt the disappearnace of a mottled strain of moth

in industrial areas of britain to be replaced by a black one, and with

the cleaning up of our skies after the war the black one has

disappeared and the mottled one come back.

This is just one of many examples.

also, one cannot merely knock out evolution while accepting other

sciences. It is completely enmeshed with geology, astronomy, chemistry

and physics; if the reality of evolution is denied, whole swathes of

modern science are compromised.

Creationism ranks with Millenarianism, " Satanic Abuse " , and Alien

Abductions as a disturbing upswing of First Millenium thinking as we

move into the Third One.

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi All

I agree that Evolution is so well-established that it is generally

accepted by scientists as established fact. As well as evidence like

the fossil record, and breeding, there are examples of evolution that

have occured during recent history - for example, nineteenth century

air pollution brought abt the disappearnace of a mottled strain of moth

in industrial areas of britain to be replaced by a black one, and with

the cleaning up of our skies after the war the black one has

disappeared and the mottled one come back.

This is just one of many examples.

also, one cannot merely knock out evolution while accepting other

sciences. It is completely enmeshed with geology, astronomy, chemistry

and physics; if the reality of evolution is denied, whole swathes of

modern science are compromised.

Creationism ranks with Millenarianism, " Satanic Abuse " , and Alien

Abductions as a disturbing upswing of First Millenium thinking as we

move into the Third One.

Pete

[Guest guest]

kikibaby67@... wrote:

>

>Hello Matt. I share your outrage. There's only one place we go when we

>begin elevating creationsim to the level of science and denigrating

>evolution...The Dark Ages!!!

Yes, but there may be a bright side (albeit small) to this. This will make

the monkeys feel a lot better about themselves, knowing that they are

absolved of all responsibility for the conduct of the human race.

C.M.

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

kikibaby67@... wrote:

>

>Hello Matt. I share your outrage. There's only one place we go when we

>begin elevating creationsim to the level of science and denigrating

>evolution...The Dark Ages!!!

Yes, but there may be a bright side (albeit small) to this. This will make

the monkeys feel a lot better about themselves, knowing that they are

absolved of all responsibility for the conduct of the human race.

C.M.

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

kikibaby67@... wrote:

>

>Hello Matt. I share your outrage. There's only one place we go when we

>begin elevating creationsim to the level of science and denigrating

>evolution...The Dark Ages!!!

Yes, but there may be a bright side (albeit small) to this. This will make

the monkeys feel a lot better about themselves, knowing that they are

absolved of all responsibility for the conduct of the human race.

C.M.

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Help I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going to my

AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and threats of

death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2 years. i'm

still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago. in

my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to go

into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked in

and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this whole

moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the program

but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they are

adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with problems

and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i want

to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation. being

sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink. i've

learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make me

really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every day.

i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

drunk. thanks

" krakatoa " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8486

> The problem is not where you think it is. Evolution Theory like

Relativity

> Theory and Quantum Theory are not actually theories in the sense of

> alternatives among other hypotheses which you can select at will,

according

> to your beliefs. They are, all three, to all intents and purposes

> established facts and without them we cannot understand the world and

the

> universe we live in. This is why the religious fundies of all

persuasions

> are so virulently defensive, for evolution constitutes a direct and

> substantiated attack on fundamentalist principles, not just an

alternative

> option.

>

> PS There are very few educated people in Europe who take

creationism

> seriously: it is a local US neurosis.

>

> School guide drops word 'evolution'

>

>

> >In my home town, state officials decided yesterday to remove the word

> >'evolution' from grade and middle school books. They decided to

change the

> >wording to , " changes over time. " The article was on the front page

of our

> >local paper. The teachers are really upset that they're students

will

> >graduate without any knowledge of evolution. The officials said they

> didn't

> >want to interfere with anyone's religious beliefs. A lot of

creationist

> >groups were pressuring them to not include the word. Of course,

this is

> for

> >public schools only. I'm not sure how private schools handle it.

> > In my opinion, this is outrageous. I think every individual

has a

> >right to know about evolution and all the theories about the

beginnings of

> >human beings. I don't think this scientific theory is imflammatory

or

> >biased. It doesn't say 'this is the way it is.' That's why its a

theory,

> >not fact. But its unfortunate that most public school students will

be

> >ignorant that there is such a theory. I doubt most will seek it out

on

> >there own.

> > I remember a friend of mine who is a devoted Christian who

told me

> she

> >couldn't take a Biology class for college because her religion told

her it

> >would insult her beliefs. That's pretty bad I think.

> >If a person is free thinking and open minded and secure in

themselves they

> >should be able to hear anything and everything and

> >a) not get defensive

> > not attack the person who presents the view and

> >c) not try to destroy or bury the message they don't agree with.

> > This ties in directly to how I handle 12 step members. I don't

get

> >upset when I hear AA language or see the big book. They only time I

get

> >upset is when people try to force their beliefs down my throat. And

get me

> >to change my views.

> > By including the theory of evolution teachers aren't saying

" believe

> >this or else " they are simply presenting a theory, take it or leave

it.

> >They just want people to learn it and be aware of it. I think our

> >government or educational system does children a disservice by

trying to

> >hide this theory of life from them.

> > I'd love to hear other people's opinions. For some reason, that

> >headline really got to me. " school drops word 'evolution. " Yikes!!

What

> >will the religious groups try to do next??

> >

> >______________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Help I'm confused. I made this leap I thought and stopped going to my

AA group. I'd had enough. No more meetings 3 times a week, no more

ridiculous sponsor direction, no more moral judegmements and threats of

death if I go out or don't do as I'm told. I felt free and

enthusiastic. AA has helped me. I stayed sober for over 21/2 years. i'm

still sober except for the near beer i drank a couple of days ago. in

my group i'd probably lose all of my time as a result. i wanted to go

into a bar and have a goodbye AA tequila or something but i walked in

and i felt dirty, like i shouldn't be there. just wrong. this whole

moral tip engulfed me. eventually i planned to go out and break my

sobriety. my problem is that i told friends. they aren't in the program

but they saw me drink and they helped through the program. they are

adament that if i start i will begin to use it to deal with problems

and won't be able to drink responsably. so why take the chance. my

argument is that i agree, things could go that way or not, but i want

to try just the same. i think it is possible to learn moderation. being

sober has helped me learn that there is more to do than drink. i've

learned to hang out with people and just chat. that used to make me

really nervous. so, i'm not asking to go out and get trashed every day.

i just want to be able to decide for myself. i'm not a low bottom

drunk. thanks

" krakatoa " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8486

> The problem is not where you think it is. Evolution Theory like

Relativity

> Theory and Quantum Theory are not actually theories in the sense of

> alternatives among other hypotheses which you can select at will,

according

> to your beliefs. They are, all three, to all intents and purposes

> established facts and without them we cannot understand the world and

the

> universe we live in. This is why the religious fundies of all

persuasions

> are so virulently defensive, for evolution constitutes a direct and

> substantiated attack on fundamentalist principles, not just an

alternative

> option.

>

> PS There are very few educated people in Europe who take

creationism

> seriously: it is a local US neurosis.

>

> School guide drops word 'evolution'

>

>

> >In my home town, state officials decided yesterday to remove the word

> >'evolution' from grade and middle school books. They decided to

change the

> >wording to , " changes over time. " The article was on the front page

of our

> >local paper. The teachers are really upset that they're students

will

> >graduate without any knowledge of evolution. The officials said they

> didn't

> >want to interfere with anyone's religious beliefs. A lot of

creationist

> >groups were pressuring them to not include the word. Of course,

this is

> for

> >public schools only. I'm not sure how private schools handle it.

> > In my opinion, this is outrageous. I think every individual

has a

> >right to know about evolution and all the theories about the

beginnings of

> >human beings. I don't think this scientific theory is imflammatory

or

> >biased. It doesn't say 'this is the way it is.' That's why its a

theory,

> >not fact. But its unfortunate that most public school students will

be

> >ignorant that there is such a theory. I doubt most will seek it out

on

> >there own.

> > I remember a friend of mine who is a devoted Christian who

told me

> she

> >couldn't take a Biology class for college because her religion told

her it

> >would insult her beliefs. That's pretty bad I think.

> >If a person is free thinking and open minded and secure in

themselves they

> >should be able to hear anything and everything and

> >a) not get defensive

> > not attack the person who presents the view and

> >c) not try to destroy or bury the message they don't agree with.

> > This ties in directly to how I handle 12 step members. I don't

get

> >upset when I hear AA language or see the big book. They only time I

get

> >upset is when people try to force their beliefs down my throat. And

get me

> >to change my views.

> > By including the theory of evolution teachers aren't saying

" believe

> >this or else " they are simply presenting a theory, take it or leave

it.

> >They just want people to learn it and be aware of it. I think our

> >government or educational system does children a disservice by

trying to

> >hide this theory of life from them.

> > I'd love to hear other people's opinions. For some reason, that

> >headline really got to me. " school drops word 'evolution. " Yikes!!

What

> >will the religious groups try to do next??

> >

> >______________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

krakatoa@... writes:

> PS There are very few educated people in Europe who take creationism

> seriously: it is a local US neurosis.

Ah, yes, America: home of religious fanatics, militant militias, the

originator of 12-step programs and other grotesque phenomena...

If I ever go abroad, I'm going to lie about my nationality so that people

won't think I'm a nutter.

Ta,

[Guest guest]

good one Chris! Gimme five...

;-)

Apple

> kikibaby67@... wrote:

>

> >

> >Hello Matt. I share your outrage. There's only one place we go when

we

> >begin elevating creationsim to the level of science and denigrating

> >evolution...The Dark Ages!!!

>

> Yes, but there may be a bright side (albeit small) to this. This

will make

> the monkeys feel a lot better about themselves, knowing that they are

> absolved of all responsibility for the conduct of the human race.

>

> C.M.

>

>

> ______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

good one Chris! Gimme five...

;-)

Apple

> kikibaby67@... wrote:

>

> >

> >Hello Matt. I share your outrage. There's only one place we go when

we

> >begin elevating creationsim to the level of science and denigrating

> >evolution...The Dark Ages!!!

>

> Yes, but there may be a bright side (albeit small) to this. This

will make

> the monkeys feel a lot better about themselves, knowing that they are

> absolved of all responsibility for the conduct of the human race.

>

> C.M.

>

>

> ______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I think they should be encouraged to look at their part in it and make

amends. I am very fond of bananas and wouldn't mind a free supply for life.

>Yes, but there may be a bright side (albeit small) to this. This will make

>the monkeys feel a lot better about themselves, knowing that they are

>absolved of all responsibility for the conduct of the human race.

>

>C.M.

>

[Guest guest]

A wise policy indeed.

Re: School guide drops word 'evolution'

>krakatoa@... writes:

>

>> PS There are very few educated people in Europe who take creationism

>> seriously: it is a local US neurosis.

>

>Ah, yes, America: home of religious fanatics, militant militias, the

>originator of 12-step programs and other grotesque phenomena...

>

>If I ever go abroad, I'm going to lie about my nationality so that people

>won't think I'm a nutter.

>

>Ta,

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Java or juggling?. Everybody learns something at Learn2.com. Where

>you'll find thousands of free 2torials, affordable online courses, and

>useful tips for everyday life. http://clickhere./click/964

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > PS There are very few educated people in Europe who take

creationism

> > seriously: it is a local US neurosis.

>

> Ah, yes, America: home of religious fanatics, militant militias, the

> originator of 12-step programs and other grotesque phenomena...

>

> If I ever go abroad, I'm going to lie about my nationality so that

people

> won't think I'm a nutter.

>

> Ta,

>

<laugh> I admit I already do it. I tell them I'm Canadian. Is there

anyone out there that despises Canadians? If so, I haven't met them

yet.

Cheers,

.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/7/99 6:15:33 PM Central Daylight Time,

babystrange@... writes:

> Is there

> anyone out there that despises Canadians? If so, I haven't met them

> yet.

> Cheers,

> .

There are a few anti-snitch members here.

Yriondo