Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 In a message dated 9/25/99 3:40:09 PM Central Daylight Time, fitzpatrick@... writes: > Personally, I don't believe in AA, but I will never bash > someone who believes in it. They have been programmed to respond that way. > Were you or anyone you know, programmed to believe the AA way? Would > someone bashing you for your beliefs help you? Or would sharing an > alternative way help them? Does bashing someone you don't even know but > believes in AA change the fact that maybe you've been abused? We all get > angry because of bad experiences, but this is not an excuse to act > immaturely. Don't you agree? For those of you that feel angry and have > felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop allowing it > to dictate your actions? > I am here because AA sucks and rarely helps anyone. If these step trolls don't like it,too bad! There is no point in engaging these step-zombies in conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 In a message dated 9/25/99 3:40:09 PM Central Daylight Time, fitzpatrick@... writes: > Personally, I don't believe in AA, but I will never bash > someone who believes in it. They have been programmed to respond that way. > Were you or anyone you know, programmed to believe the AA way? Would > someone bashing you for your beliefs help you? Or would sharing an > alternative way help them? Does bashing someone you don't even know but > believes in AA change the fact that maybe you've been abused? We all get > angry because of bad experiences, but this is not an excuse to act > immaturely. Don't you agree? For those of you that feel angry and have > felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop allowing it > to dictate your actions? > I am here because AA sucks and rarely helps anyone. If these step trolls don't like it,too bad! There is no point in engaging these step-zombies in conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 In a message dated 9/25/99 3:40:09 PM Central Daylight Time, fitzpatrick@... writes: > Personally, I don't believe in AA, but I will never bash > someone who believes in it. They have been programmed to respond that way. > Were you or anyone you know, programmed to believe the AA way? Would > someone bashing you for your beliefs help you? Or would sharing an > alternative way help them? Does bashing someone you don't even know but > believes in AA change the fact that maybe you've been abused? We all get > angry because of bad experiences, but this is not an excuse to act > immaturely. Don't you agree? For those of you that feel angry and have > felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop allowing it > to dictate your actions? > I am here because AA sucks and rarely helps anyone. If these step trolls don't like it,too bad! There is no point in engaging these step-zombies in conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 good point TJ, but consider this. peopel ARE forced to accept a.a's beliefs or go to jail, nor are they informed they have a choice in what beliefs they cam accept if they wish to be sober. heavens gate was a matter of beliefs too. those in it belived they were having a spirtual experince one else could understand, castration and suicide was all part of journey. sot people would belive it was horriable suicide cult, but is that a matter of bashing beliefs to make that observation? Also no one is forced to go into heavens gate, but courts send people everyday to a.a. if the topic wasnt a matter of choice and drinking, and was lets say cancer. and court/.dr sent people to a cancer clinic which claimed to offer the ONLY cure for what is BELIVED to be cancer but could only provide a less 5% success rate but would imply it was much higher using only personal antedotes as proof. to make it stranger, they cant even prove what is causing this sickness is cancer, but they belive it is. what if this clinics practicioners abused or ignored anyone who didnt agree with its treatment, lied about its origins and techniques, claimed those that who left would die, go to prison or insane. that would teach only way to recovery was life long acceptance to the clinic beliefs. in thsi clinic when you go up to your " dr " and ask him about your/your loved ones treament and how it works, he responds he cant tell you how it works, that you will have to undergo treatment for 90 days. you have no choice. BTW , your family is also probably sick by association, so they will have to come in as well. when you ask to see your " dr " credientals, he says he has no training, only that he's " been there " or " school of hard knocks " . in this clinic you are told it was your own free will which made you sick. To get better, you denouce your freedom of will in favor of gods. if you feel uncompfortable going this process of " turning it over " you can practice by accepting the will of an orderly's so he may guide you. this orderly also has no particular training, and in fact has only been there a little longer than you. soon you see your judge/dr at this clinic as well. at some point you decide to try to leave and try a differnt treatment, but you are wwarned you will die if you do. and besides there is no other treatment. finally you do manage to leave but its not easy, beacue you find it hard to think for yourself, to believe in your own descions. you remmber all the warnings and stories fabout what would become of you and you feel sick. After time though, you see that you dont get worse, that you actuialy get better. upon research outside you discover there were other treatments after all. when you go up to your dr and ask how you could be better, he responds you never were sick to begin with otherwise you wouldnt be here. now if your loved one went thru that and suffered for it, would you sit quietly as your legal/medical system forced people to go into this clinc or would you rather they at least provide a choice? would you not speak up or jsut say this is only a matter of " live and let live " This is not just a matter of beliefs. this is a matter of an insituionalized belief system which denies free will. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8267 > Hello everyone, > > My wife and I used to attend both AA and NA meetings. We've > both had experiences that have been counterproductive. My > wife was the one that has gotten involved with > 12-step-free. However, I often read the messages and > replies. Many times I enjoy what I read and other times I > don't. I know that I'm not gonna like, use or believe > everything. That's to expected with everything in life. > > What really turned me off to AA and NA fellowships was an > inconsistency I found at every group I attended. They > preach, in order to get better must remain open minded. I > do believe this. But, whenever expressed beliefs that were > different from there's, the members would grin, snicker, > and whisper secretly among each other. They were obviously > not practicing open mindedness. They would approach me with > judgment and speak to me with in a tone of pity. I am a > person that has experienced more success in life than they > will probably ever know, and just maybe my beliefs are > working very well for me. At least, that is what I would > think. > > Now, on the other hand, many people share their beliefs > here. Many times it appears they are judged and replied to > with words of pity as well. I personally don't care what > any of you believe unless it will benefit me. I've learned > a lot and appreciate the facts, especially on the web site. > However, many of the replies remind me of the 12 step > guru's. My opinion is, " Don't push your beliefs on > anyone. " Let people believe what they want. If what they > believe something and it eventually creates some type of > pain in their life, SO WHAT. Isn't that what life's all > about? Living and learning. Some may agree and some may > not, but it's something to think about. Next time one of > you gets ready to bash someone's beliefs, maybe you ought to > think about this. Why is someone's beliefs so important to > me anyway? I personally never liked someone that insisted > they were right all the time. > > I will continue to read your messages, and take what I like > and leave what I don't. I will try my hardest to have an > open mind to each and everyone of you. > > TJ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 Hello Fitzpatrick. You wrote: I will continue to read your messages, and take what I like and leave what I don't. I will try my hardest to have an open mind to each and everyone of you. TJ I like your attitude, but I would even more appreciate your opinions. Instead of sitting in the dark and judging right from wrong, wouldn't it be more productive to express your own ideas and conceptualizations? Bjørn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 I often share share many of the same beliefs. When it's already been expressed, I don't see a need to express it again. I get too many messages already, and you probably do as well? I also share many of the the same objections, but I don't immediately react to what is being said. Even though I make the same judgements as many of you, I try to remember that each and every one of us are individual. I feel it's my responsibility not to push my beliefs, because what works for me may not work for you. I do agree, I should voice what is working for me and become proactive in the group. Your point has been well taken. Thanks, TJ Bjørn Herring wrote: > Hello Fitzpatrick. > > You wrote: > > I will continue to read your messages, and take what I like > and leave what I don't. I will try my hardest to have an > open mind to each and everyone of you. > > TJ > > I like your attitude, but I would even more appreciate your opinions. > Instead of sitting in the dark and judging right from wrong, wouldn't it > be more productive to express your own ideas and conceptualizations? > > Bjørn > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8267 > Hello everyone, > > My wife and I used to attend both AA and NA meetings. We've > both had experiences that have been counterproductive. My > wife was the one that has gotten involved with > 12-step-free. However, I often read the messages and > replies. Many times I enjoy what I read and other times I > don't. I know that I'm not gonna like, use or believe > everything. That's to expected with everything in life. > > What really turned me off to AA and NA fellowships was an > inconsistency I found at every group I attended. They > preach, in order to get better must remain open minded. I > do believe this. But, whenever expressed beliefs that were > different from there's, the members would grin, snicker, > and whisper secretly among each other. Yeah, that happens a lot in AA. I'm glad you and your wife found your ways out. The problem with statements like the kind that started this disagreement-- " you guys shouldn't bash AA-- " is not a statment of opinion but a critisism of everything we started this list for. The old XAA list had the same kinds of arguments--the same kinds we hear from steppers all the time--in other words, we've got to just shut up about AA and act nice. Its not nice or spiritual to be angry, is it? Too bad its necessary, or everyne would be just as nice as chiffon day and night, no matter how badly they were abused. Whenever someone makes that kind of statment (don't bash AA) here, there's going to be a ruckus. This is a list where one is free to bash the fuck out of AA, which deserves, by the way, to be thoroughly bashed. Everyone who posts here is free to bitch, bellyache, complain, bash, and fret about AA or NA as much as he or she wants, and should not be critisized for that. If you want that, go to the alt.groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8267 > Hello everyone, > > My wife and I used to attend both AA and NA meetings. We've > both had experiences that have been counterproductive. My > wife was the one that has gotten involved with > 12-step-free. However, I often read the messages and > replies. Many times I enjoy what I read and other times I > don't. I know that I'm not gonna like, use or believe > everything. That's to expected with everything in life. > > What really turned me off to AA and NA fellowships was an > inconsistency I found at every group I attended. They > preach, in order to get better must remain open minded. I > do believe this. But, whenever expressed beliefs that were > different from there's, the members would grin, snicker, > and whisper secretly among each other. Yeah, that happens a lot in AA. I'm glad you and your wife found your ways out. The problem with statements like the kind that started this disagreement-- " you guys shouldn't bash AA-- " is not a statment of opinion but a critisism of everything we started this list for. The old XAA list had the same kinds of arguments--the same kinds we hear from steppers all the time--in other words, we've got to just shut up about AA and act nice. Its not nice or spiritual to be angry, is it? Too bad its necessary, or everyne would be just as nice as chiffon day and night, no matter how badly they were abused. Whenever someone makes that kind of statment (don't bash AA) here, there's going to be a ruckus. This is a list where one is free to bash the fuck out of AA, which deserves, by the way, to be thoroughly bashed. Everyone who posts here is free to bitch, bellyache, complain, bash, and fret about AA or NA as much as he or she wants, and should not be critisized for that. If you want that, go to the alt.groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8267 > Hello everyone, > > My wife and I used to attend both AA and NA meetings. We've > both had experiences that have been counterproductive. My > wife was the one that has gotten involved with > 12-step-free. However, I often read the messages and > replies. Many times I enjoy what I read and other times I > don't. I know that I'm not gonna like, use or believe > everything. That's to expected with everything in life. > > What really turned me off to AA and NA fellowships was an > inconsistency I found at every group I attended. They > preach, in order to get better must remain open minded. I > do believe this. But, whenever expressed beliefs that were > different from there's, the members would grin, snicker, > and whisper secretly among each other. Yeah, that happens a lot in AA. I'm glad you and your wife found your ways out. The problem with statements like the kind that started this disagreement-- " you guys shouldn't bash AA-- " is not a statment of opinion but a critisism of everything we started this list for. The old XAA list had the same kinds of arguments--the same kinds we hear from steppers all the time--in other words, we've got to just shut up about AA and act nice. Its not nice or spiritual to be angry, is it? Too bad its necessary, or everyne would be just as nice as chiffon day and night, no matter how badly they were abused. Whenever someone makes that kind of statment (don't bash AA) here, there's going to be a ruckus. This is a list where one is free to bash the fuck out of AA, which deserves, by the way, to be thoroughly bashed. Everyone who posts here is free to bitch, bellyache, complain, bash, and fret about AA or NA as much as he or she wants, and should not be critisized for that. If you want that, go to the alt.groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 I will be more than happy to share my bad experiences with AA, but I think you missed my point. It's one thing to bash AA and it's another to bash each other. Personally, I don't believe in AA, but I will never bash someone who believes in it. They have been programmed to respond that way. Were you or anyone you know, programmed to believe the AA way? Would someone bashing you for your beliefs help you? Or would sharing an alternative way help them? Does bashing someone you don't even know but believes in AA change the fact that maybe you've been abused? We all get angry because of bad experiences, but this is not an excuse to act immaturely. Don't you agree? For those of you that feel angry and have felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop allowing it to dictate your actions? rfransway@... wrote: > wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8267 > > Hello everyone, > > > > My wife and I used to attend both AA and NA meetings. We've > > both had experiences that have been counterproductive. My > > wife was the one that has gotten involved with > > 12-step-free. However, I often read the messages and > > replies. Many times I enjoy what I read and other times I > > don't. I know that I'm not gonna like, use or believe > > everything. That's to expected with everything in life. > > > > What really turned me off to AA and NA fellowships was an > > inconsistency I found at every group I attended. They > > preach, in order to get better must remain open minded. I > > do believe this. But, whenever expressed beliefs that were > > different from there's, the members would grin, snicker, > > and whisper secretly among each other. > > Yeah, that happens a lot in AA. I'm glad you and your wife found your > ways out. > > The problem with statements like the kind that started this > disagreement-- > " you guys shouldn't bash AA-- " is not a statment of opinion but a > critisism of everything we started this list for. The old XAA list had > the same kinds of arguments--the same kinds we hear from steppers all > the > time--in other words, we've got to just shut up about AA and act nice. > > Its not nice or spiritual to be angry, is it? Too bad its necessary, > or > everyne would be just as nice as chiffon day and night, no matter how > badly they were abused. > > Whenever someone makes that kind of statment (don't bash AA) here, > there's going to be a ruckus. > > This is a list where one is free to bash the fuck out of AA, which > deserves, > by the way, to be thoroughly bashed. Everyone who posts here is free to > bitch, bellyache, complain, bash, and fret about AA or NA as much as > he or she > wants, and should not be critisized for that. > > If you want that, go to the alt.groups. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 I will be more than happy to share my bad experiences with AA, but I think you missed my point. It's one thing to bash AA and it's another to bash each other. Personally, I don't believe in AA, but I will never bash someone who believes in it. They have been programmed to respond that way. Were you or anyone you know, programmed to believe the AA way? Would someone bashing you for your beliefs help you? Or would sharing an alternative way help them? Does bashing someone you don't even know but believes in AA change the fact that maybe you've been abused? We all get angry because of bad experiences, but this is not an excuse to act immaturely. Don't you agree? For those of you that feel angry and have felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop allowing it to dictate your actions? rfransway@... wrote: > wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8267 > > Hello everyone, > > > > My wife and I used to attend both AA and NA meetings. We've > > both had experiences that have been counterproductive. My > > wife was the one that has gotten involved with > > 12-step-free. However, I often read the messages and > > replies. Many times I enjoy what I read and other times I > > don't. I know that I'm not gonna like, use or believe > > everything. That's to expected with everything in life. > > > > What really turned me off to AA and NA fellowships was an > > inconsistency I found at every group I attended. They > > preach, in order to get better must remain open minded. I > > do believe this. But, whenever expressed beliefs that were > > different from there's, the members would grin, snicker, > > and whisper secretly among each other. > > Yeah, that happens a lot in AA. I'm glad you and your wife found your > ways out. > > The problem with statements like the kind that started this > disagreement-- > " you guys shouldn't bash AA-- " is not a statment of opinion but a > critisism of everything we started this list for. The old XAA list had > the same kinds of arguments--the same kinds we hear from steppers all > the > time--in other words, we've got to just shut up about AA and act nice. > > Its not nice or spiritual to be angry, is it? Too bad its necessary, > or > everyne would be just as nice as chiffon day and night, no matter how > badly they were abused. > > Whenever someone makes that kind of statment (don't bash AA) here, > there's going to be a ruckus. > > This is a list where one is free to bash the fuck out of AA, which > deserves, > by the way, to be thoroughly bashed. Everyone who posts here is free to > bitch, bellyache, complain, bash, and fret about AA or NA as much as > he or she > wants, and should not be critisized for that. > > If you want that, go to the alt.groups. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 At 04:47 PM 25/09/99 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/25/99 3:40:09 PM Central Daylight Time, >fitzpatrick@... writes: > >> Personally, I don't believe in AA, but I will never bash >> someone who believes in it. They have been programmed to respond that way. >> Were you or anyone you know, programmed to believe the AA way? Would >> someone bashing you for your beliefs help you? Or would sharing an >> alternative way help them? Does bashing someone you don't even know but >> believes in AA change the fact that maybe you've been abused? We all get >> angry because of bad experiences, but this is not an excuse to act >> immaturely. Don't you agree? For those of you that feel angry and have >> felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop allowing >it >> to dictate your actions? >> > I am here because AA sucks and rarely helps anyone. If these step trolls >don't like it,too bad! There is no point in engaging these step-zombies in >conversation. Quite. But while I'm here I'll answer his question with a question- whose actions are being dictated here- someone who is recovering from the 12 step experiences and venting the anger one naturally feels after realising one has been abused or conned, or someone who is still apologising for the cult and telling us we shouldn't be angry at it? Joe Berenbaum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 At 04:47 PM 25/09/99 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/25/99 3:40:09 PM Central Daylight Time, >fitzpatrick@... writes: > >> Personally, I don't believe in AA, but I will never bash >> someone who believes in it. They have been programmed to respond that way. >> Were you or anyone you know, programmed to believe the AA way? Would >> someone bashing you for your beliefs help you? Or would sharing an >> alternative way help them? Does bashing someone you don't even know but >> believes in AA change the fact that maybe you've been abused? We all get >> angry because of bad experiences, but this is not an excuse to act >> immaturely. Don't you agree? For those of you that feel angry and have >> felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop allowing >it >> to dictate your actions? >> > I am here because AA sucks and rarely helps anyone. If these step trolls >don't like it,too bad! There is no point in engaging these step-zombies in >conversation. Quite. But while I'm here I'll answer his question with a question- whose actions are being dictated here- someone who is recovering from the 12 step experiences and venting the anger one naturally feels after realising one has been abused or conned, or someone who is still apologising for the cult and telling us we shouldn't be angry at it? Joe Berenbaum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 I really appreciate your thoughtful posting, and the fact that you truly seem to practice an open minded approach. What I try to keep in mind is that most people want someone else to agree with them--it validates their opinion. With some, the deisre for validation is so strong that they will use coercion to get that validation. There are others who do not particularly want to think for themselves and will jump on whatever bandwagon seems to be the most popular at the moment. Then there are those who truly believe that their ideas will " save the world " and that they have a mission to convert everyone to their way of thinking. Sometimes it take effort to maintain open-mindedness and independent thinkng. A glitch in the software on my computer prevented me from having internet access at home for the better part of a week, so when I finally got up and running, I had nearly a week's worth of postings to catch up on. The postings from and the responses to them were very entertaining, but ultimately I realized the guy just wanted attention--and he sure got it! Unlike many others on this list, I have no horror stories to tell. I've been sober about 16 years, but started going to fewer and fewer meetings about 3 years ago. I didn't understand why I didn't want to go except that I just din't like the meetings anymore and most of the stuff I heard was so much bs. My therapist told me that many people sort of grew out of AA. I was not very satisfied with that answer so when I found this list I subscribed in hopes I might find some answers here. And I did. Mostly, my dissatisfaction with AA stems from the conformity of thought required in meetings. I was lucky in that when I first started attending AA, I was encouraged to think for myself, and to put the steps in some context that applied to and was useful for myself. I was not encouraged to subscribe wholesale to the platitudes and jargon. It is sad that many of those people who originated the group in my small hometown have passed on and it is left to those who want to subscribe to the mindlessness of a group to carry on. I occasionaly go to a meeting, get up on the old soap box and preach independent thinking and radical (for AA) ideas. It is always suprising to me which people shun me, which people want to convert me, and how many thank me. The sad truth for me is that very few people actually want the responsibility of thinking for themselves and taking reponsibility for their own thoughts and actions. They want quick and easy answeres and some other entity to take responsibility. This is not confined to XA. It has saddened me more than I can say to read some of the stories on this list, and see what damage has been infilicted on people in the name of AA recovery. I do not for one second disbelive these stories and sadly can see how things like this can happen. The stories of predators being tolerated and even to some extent being encourged are especially upsetting. At my very first meeting, some of the other women present observed a man making moves on me. He had been there a while and liked to mentor young newcomer females. The women pulled me aside and said " just because he's in the program, doesn't mean he's OK. Be careful. " They went on to give me caring, thoughtful advice about the men in meetings and what to look out for. For years, all the women coming into our group got the same kind of intervention. Sometimes it went so far as one or two of us physicaly intervening, literally stepping in between the newcomer and some old timer lech that we were on to. That is one of the kinds of responsibility I learned in AA. OK, so I could probably write reams about my experiences both good and bad in AA, and why I am glad to be out of the group mentality, but I'll spare you for now. I just want you all to know how much I apprciate this list and all of those people on it who take the time to share their stories and viewpoints. You've been of great help to me. Even, and maybe especially, the AA " bashing " ! Kate wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8267 > Hello everyone, > > My wife and I used to attend both AA and NA meetings. We've > both had experiences that have been counterproductive. My > wife was the one that has gotten involved with > 12-step-free. However, I often read the messages and > replies. Many times I enjoy what I read and other times I > don't. I know that I'm not gonna like, use or believe > everything. That's to expected with everything in life. > > What really turned me off to AA and NA fellowships was an > inconsistency I found at every group I attended. They > preach, in order to get better must remain open minded. I > do believe this. But, whenever expressed beliefs that were > different from there's, the members would grin, snicker, > and whisper secretly among each other. They were obviously > not practicing open mindedness. They would approach me with > judgment and speak to me with in a tone of pity. I am a > person that has experienced more success in life than they > will probably ever know, and just maybe my beliefs are > working very well for me. At least, that is what I would > think. > > Now, on the other hand, many people share their beliefs > here. Many times it appears they are judged and replied to > with words of pity as well. I personally don't care what > any of you believe unless it will benefit me. I've learned > a lot and appreciate the facts, especially on the web site. > However, many of the replies remind me of the 12 step > guru's. My opinion is, " Don't push your beliefs on > anyone. " Let people believe what they want. If what they > believe something and it eventually creates some type of > pain in their life, SO WHAT. Isn't that what life's all > about? Living and learning. Some may agree and some may > not, but it's something to think about. Next time one of > you gets ready to bash someone's beliefs, maybe you ought to > think about this. Why is someone's beliefs so important to > me anyway? I personally never liked someone that insisted > they were right all the time. > > I will continue to read your messages, and take what I like > and leave what I don't. I will try my hardest to have an > open mind to each and everyone of you. > > TJ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 I really appreciate your thoughtful posting, and the fact that you truly seem to practice an open minded approach. What I try to keep in mind is that most people want someone else to agree with them--it validates their opinion. With some, the deisre for validation is so strong that they will use coercion to get that validation. There are others who do not particularly want to think for themselves and will jump on whatever bandwagon seems to be the most popular at the moment. Then there are those who truly believe that their ideas will " save the world " and that they have a mission to convert everyone to their way of thinking. Sometimes it take effort to maintain open-mindedness and independent thinkng. A glitch in the software on my computer prevented me from having internet access at home for the better part of a week, so when I finally got up and running, I had nearly a week's worth of postings to catch up on. The postings from and the responses to them were very entertaining, but ultimately I realized the guy just wanted attention--and he sure got it! Unlike many others on this list, I have no horror stories to tell. I've been sober about 16 years, but started going to fewer and fewer meetings about 3 years ago. I didn't understand why I didn't want to go except that I just din't like the meetings anymore and most of the stuff I heard was so much bs. My therapist told me that many people sort of grew out of AA. I was not very satisfied with that answer so when I found this list I subscribed in hopes I might find some answers here. And I did. Mostly, my dissatisfaction with AA stems from the conformity of thought required in meetings. I was lucky in that when I first started attending AA, I was encouraged to think for myself, and to put the steps in some context that applied to and was useful for myself. I was not encouraged to subscribe wholesale to the platitudes and jargon. It is sad that many of those people who originated the group in my small hometown have passed on and it is left to those who want to subscribe to the mindlessness of a group to carry on. I occasionaly go to a meeting, get up on the old soap box and preach independent thinking and radical (for AA) ideas. It is always suprising to me which people shun me, which people want to convert me, and how many thank me. The sad truth for me is that very few people actually want the responsibility of thinking for themselves and taking reponsibility for their own thoughts and actions. They want quick and easy answeres and some other entity to take responsibility. This is not confined to XA. It has saddened me more than I can say to read some of the stories on this list, and see what damage has been infilicted on people in the name of AA recovery. I do not for one second disbelive these stories and sadly can see how things like this can happen. The stories of predators being tolerated and even to some extent being encourged are especially upsetting. At my very first meeting, some of the other women present observed a man making moves on me. He had been there a while and liked to mentor young newcomer females. The women pulled me aside and said " just because he's in the program, doesn't mean he's OK. Be careful. " They went on to give me caring, thoughtful advice about the men in meetings and what to look out for. For years, all the women coming into our group got the same kind of intervention. Sometimes it went so far as one or two of us physicaly intervening, literally stepping in between the newcomer and some old timer lech that we were on to. That is one of the kinds of responsibility I learned in AA. OK, so I could probably write reams about my experiences both good and bad in AA, and why I am glad to be out of the group mentality, but I'll spare you for now. I just want you all to know how much I apprciate this list and all of those people on it who take the time to share their stories and viewpoints. You've been of great help to me. Even, and maybe especially, the AA " bashing " ! Kate wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8267 > Hello everyone, > > My wife and I used to attend both AA and NA meetings. We've > both had experiences that have been counterproductive. My > wife was the one that has gotten involved with > 12-step-free. However, I often read the messages and > replies. Many times I enjoy what I read and other times I > don't. I know that I'm not gonna like, use or believe > everything. That's to expected with everything in life. > > What really turned me off to AA and NA fellowships was an > inconsistency I found at every group I attended. They > preach, in order to get better must remain open minded. I > do believe this. But, whenever expressed beliefs that were > different from there's, the members would grin, snicker, > and whisper secretly among each other. They were obviously > not practicing open mindedness. They would approach me with > judgment and speak to me with in a tone of pity. I am a > person that has experienced more success in life than they > will probably ever know, and just maybe my beliefs are > working very well for me. At least, that is what I would > think. > > Now, on the other hand, many people share their beliefs > here. Many times it appears they are judged and replied to > with words of pity as well. I personally don't care what > any of you believe unless it will benefit me. I've learned > a lot and appreciate the facts, especially on the web site. > However, many of the replies remind me of the 12 step > guru's. My opinion is, " Don't push your beliefs on > anyone. " Let people believe what they want. If what they > believe something and it eventually creates some type of > pain in their life, SO WHAT. Isn't that what life's all > about? Living and learning. Some may agree and some may > not, but it's something to think about. Next time one of > you gets ready to bash someone's beliefs, maybe you ought to > think about this. Why is someone's beliefs so important to > me anyway? I personally never liked someone that insisted > they were right all the time. > > I will continue to read your messages, and take what I like > and leave what I don't. I will try my hardest to have an > open mind to each and everyone of you. > > TJ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 1999 Report Share Posted September 25, 1999 I think you're overlooking something yourself. is not an AA believer, according to him. I don't approve of attacking him either, but people will be people. If he were ignored, as Ben suggests, we might be free of him a lot sooner, and there's certainly no point in responding to him because he's not really saying anything. But hope springs eternal. Most people want to persuade others of their point of view. I don't know how you can judge when it's time for someone else to put their bad experiences behind them and move on. When I was 31 my best friend, 37, died of a heart attack, very suddenly and unexpectedly. I learned about this very early in the morning, and went to my mother's house, where I sat feeling very numb and unreal. About 3 PM she said to me, " Don't you think it's about time you got over this? " Do I need to explain how her remark was inappropriate? wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8288 > I will be more than happy to share my bad experiences with AA, but I think > you missed my point. It's one thing to bash AA and it's another to bash > each other. Personally, I don't believe in AA, but I will never bash > someone who believes in it. They have been programmed to respond that way. > Were you or anyone you know, programmed to believe the AA way? Would > someone bashing you for your beliefs help you? Or would sharing an > alternative way help them? Does bashing someone you don't even know but > believes in AA change the fact that maybe you've been abused? We all get > angry because of bad experiences, but this is not an excuse to act > immaturely. Don't you agree? For those of you that feel angry and have > felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop allowing it > to dictate your actions? > > rfransway@... wrote: > > > wrote: > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 267 > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > > My wife and I used to attend both AA and NA meetings. We've > > > both had experiences that have been counterproductive. My > > > wife was the one that has gotten involved with > > > 12-step-free. However, I often read the messages and > > > replies. Many times I enjoy what I read and other times I > > > don't. I know that I'm not gonna like, use or believe > > > everything. That's to expected with everything in life. > > > > > > What really turned me off to AA and NA fellowships was an > > > inconsistency I found at every group I attended. They > > > preach, in order to get better must remain open minded. I > > > do believe this. But, whenever expressed beliefs that were > > > different from there's, the members would grin, snicker, > > > and whisper secretly among each other. > > > > Yeah, that happens a lot in AA. I'm glad you and your wife found your > > ways out. > > > > The problem with statements like the kind that started this > > disagreement-- > > " you guys shouldn't bash AA-- " is not a statment of opinion but a > > critisism of everything we started this list for. The old XAA list had > > the same kinds of arguments--the same kinds we hear from steppers all > > the > > time--in other words, we've got to just shut up about AA and act nice. > > > > Its not nice or spiritual to be angry, is it? Too bad its necessary, > > or > > everyne would be just as nice as chiffon day and night, no matter how > > badly they were abused. > > > > Whenever someone makes that kind of statment (don't bash AA) here, > > there's going to be a ruckus. > > > > This is a list where one is free to bash the fuck out of AA, which > > deserves, > > by the way, to be thoroughly bashed. Everyone who posts here is free to > > bitch, bellyache, complain, bash, and fret about AA or NA as much as > > he or she > > wants, and should not be critisized for that. > > > > If you want that, go to the alt.groups. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 1999 Report Share Posted September 26, 1999 My comments were directed to another member. It was my interpretation that her remarks justified name calling because of bad experiences with AA. I think when we allow bad experiences to continually dictate our actions, it doesn't make it all right. I believe we are all accountable for what we say, do, act, ect. A bad experience doesn't justify bad behavior. Don't get me wrong, I've been guilty of this as well, but it is something I am constantly aware of. If I act this way, hopefully someone will point out my behavior. kayleighs@... wrote: > I think you're overlooking something yourself. is not an AA > believer, according to him. I don't approve of attacking him either, > but people will be people. If he were ignored, as Ben suggests, we > might be free of him a lot sooner, and there's certainly no point in > responding to him because he's not really saying anything. But hope > springs eternal. Most people want to persuade others of their point of > view. > > I don't know how you can judge when it's time for someone else to put > their bad experiences behind them and move on. When I was 31 my best > friend, 37, died of a heart attack, very suddenly and unexpectedly. I > learned about this very early in the morning, and went to my mother's > house, where I sat feeling very numb and unreal. About 3 PM she said > to me, " Don't you think it's about time you got over this? " > > Do I need to explain how her remark was inappropriate? > > wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8288 > > I will be more than happy to share my bad experiences with AA, but I > think > > you missed my point. It's one thing to bash AA and it's another to > bash > > each other. Personally, I don't believe in AA, but I will never bash > > someone who believes in it. They have been programmed to respond > that way. > > Were you or anyone you know, programmed to believe the AA way? Would > > someone bashing you for your beliefs help you? Or would sharing an > > alternative way help them? Does bashing someone you don't even know > but > > believes in AA change the fact that maybe you've been abused? We all > get > > angry because of bad experiences, but this is not an excuse to act > > immaturely. Don't you agree? For those of you that feel angry and > have > > felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop > allowing it > > to dictate your actions? > > > > rfransway@... wrote: > > > > > wrote: > > > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8 > 267 > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > > > > My wife and I used to attend both AA and NA meetings. We've > > > > both had experiences that have been counterproductive. My > > > > wife was the one that has gotten involved with > > > > 12-step-free. However, I often read the messages and > > > > replies. Many times I enjoy what I read and other times I > > > > don't. I know that I'm not gonna like, use or believe > > > > everything. That's to expected with everything in life. > > > > > > > > What really turned me off to AA and NA fellowships was an > > > > inconsistency I found at every group I attended. They > > > > preach, in order to get better must remain open minded. I > > > > do believe this. But, whenever expressed beliefs that were > > > > different from there's, the members would grin, snicker, > > > > and whisper secretly among each other. > > > > > > Yeah, that happens a lot in AA. I'm glad you and your wife found > your > > > ways out. > > > > > > The problem with statements like the kind that started this > > > disagreement-- > > > " you guys shouldn't bash AA-- " is not a statment of opinion but a > > > critisism of everything we started this list for. The old XAA list > had > > > the same kinds of arguments--the same kinds we hear from steppers > all > > > the > > > time--in other words, we've got to just shut up about AA and act > nice. > > > > > > Its not nice or spiritual to be angry, is it? Too bad its > necessary, > > > or > > > everyne would be just as nice as chiffon day and night, no matter > how > > > badly they were abused. > > > > > > Whenever someone makes that kind of statment (don't bash AA) here, > > > there's going to be a ruckus. > > > > > > This is a list where one is free to bash the fuck out of AA, which > > > deserves, > > > by the way, to be thoroughly bashed. Everyone who posts here is > free to > > > bitch, bellyache, complain, bash, and fret about AA or NA as much > as > > > he or she > > > wants, and should not be critisized for that. > > > > > > If you want that, go to the alt.groups. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 1999 Report Share Posted September 27, 1999 wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8288 > > For those of you that feel angry and have > felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop allowing it > to dictate your actions? > ---------------------------------------- Well, some of us have more outspoken styles of anger than others. But as for the " don't you think it's time to put it behind you " thing -- for me, in particular, it's not possible. You see, my company has a policy of " recheck testing " all employees who had a previous " positive " d/a test (and have undergone the draconian 12-step-based " treatment " ) for a period of a year, at least once a month. I have been singled out for continued and intensified recheck testing, for the SOLE reason that I will not attend AA. (I successfully sued for the right to stop attending.) This morning I was sent for my 138th recheck test (in a 2-year period). All such tests for both drugs and alcohol have been 100% negative, and I have letters on record from 2 doctors and 2 psychologists that I am not and have never been " alcoholic " , " addicted " , or alcohol-dependent. Of course, I have nothing to " hide " in my breath or urine, but my anger cannot abate while I continue to be subjected to this indignity simply because I reject the " happy, joyous, and free " 12-step religion. ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 1999 Report Share Posted September 27, 1999 wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8288 > > For those of you that feel angry and have > felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop allowing it > to dictate your actions? > ---------------------------------------- Well, some of us have more outspoken styles of anger than others. But as for the " don't you think it's time to put it behind you " thing -- for me, in particular, it's not possible. You see, my company has a policy of " recheck testing " all employees who had a previous " positive " d/a test (and have undergone the draconian 12-step-based " treatment " ) for a period of a year, at least once a month. I have been singled out for continued and intensified recheck testing, for the SOLE reason that I will not attend AA. (I successfully sued for the right to stop attending.) This morning I was sent for my 138th recheck test (in a 2-year period). All such tests for both drugs and alcohol have been 100% negative, and I have letters on record from 2 doctors and 2 psychologists that I am not and have never been " alcoholic " , " addicted " , or alcohol-dependent. Of course, I have nothing to " hide " in my breath or urine, but my anger cannot abate while I continue to be subjected to this indignity simply because I reject the " happy, joyous, and free " 12-step religion. ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 1999 Report Share Posted September 27, 1999 Hello Rita. You have my unconditioned sympathy on this. It's exactly these conditions I'll try to warn against in my country. When the Oxford Group Movement was active in Denmark in the 30's, two distinguished theologians attacked the movement vigorously. One of them said in 1936, that the end of the road was Nazi Germany. In 1936! He later became a professor in (lutheran) dogmatic at the University of Copenhagen. Nowadays the Danish local churches support AA, but I think that if the theologians got their eyes opened, AA would get an impressive opponent. I have given up understanding the theology of the American evangelical churches, maybe they don't have any at all. To me they seem to do just the opposite of the lutheran-evangelical church of Denmark. In this country it's considered a sin to believe that you are able to do anything at all to save your soul. The main symbols are Christ and the Cross. To me it seems that the American churches are talking to much about God, and to little about the symbolic meaning of the crucifixion. I'm not a believer myself, but I appreciate the philosophy stemming from our religious foundation, and AA is potentially in conflict with it. What they are doing against you is in my eyes a kind of fascism, I would be constantly pissed if I was subjected to that kind of regime. Your anger is not only completely justified, it's necessary for surviving as a human. Lately I've got a free 4 week subscription of our national religious newspaper, which is slightly leftist and in accordance with the general religious foundation. Could be a good place to start a debate about AA. Take care. Bjørn railroadrita@... wrote: > > wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8288 > > For those of you that feel angry and have > felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop allowing it > to dictate your actions? > ---------------------------------------- Well, some of us have more outspoken styles of anger than others. But as for the " don't you think it's time to put it behind you " thing -- for me, in particular, it's not possible. You see, my company has a policy of " recheck testing " all employees who had a previous " positive " d/a test (and have undergone the draconian 12-step-based " treatment " ) for a period of a year, at least once a month. I have been singled out for continued and intensified recheck testing, for the SOLE reason that I will not attend AA. (I successfully sued for the right to stop attending.) This morning I was sent for my 138th recheck test (in a 2-year period). All such tests for both drugs and alcohol have been 100% negative, and I have letters on record from 2 doctors and 2 psychologists that I am not and have never been " alcoholic " , " addicted " , or alcohol-dependent. Of course, I have nothing to " hide " in my breath or urine, but my anger cannot abate while I continue to be subjected to this indignity simply because I reject the " happy, joyous, and free " 12-step religion. ~Rita > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [click here] > Click Here! > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 1999 Report Share Posted September 27, 1999 Hello Rita. You have my unconditioned sympathy on this. It's exactly these conditions I'll try to warn against in my country. When the Oxford Group Movement was active in Denmark in the 30's, two distinguished theologians attacked the movement vigorously. One of them said in 1936, that the end of the road was Nazi Germany. In 1936! He later became a professor in (lutheran) dogmatic at the University of Copenhagen. Nowadays the Danish local churches support AA, but I think that if the theologians got their eyes opened, AA would get an impressive opponent. I have given up understanding the theology of the American evangelical churches, maybe they don't have any at all. To me they seem to do just the opposite of the lutheran-evangelical church of Denmark. In this country it's considered a sin to believe that you are able to do anything at all to save your soul. The main symbols are Christ and the Cross. To me it seems that the American churches are talking to much about God, and to little about the symbolic meaning of the crucifixion. I'm not a believer myself, but I appreciate the philosophy stemming from our religious foundation, and AA is potentially in conflict with it. What they are doing against you is in my eyes a kind of fascism, I would be constantly pissed if I was subjected to that kind of regime. Your anger is not only completely justified, it's necessary for surviving as a human. Lately I've got a free 4 week subscription of our national religious newspaper, which is slightly leftist and in accordance with the general religious foundation. Could be a good place to start a debate about AA. Take care. Bjørn railroadrita@... wrote: > > wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8288 > > For those of you that feel angry and have > felt abused, don't think it's time to put it behind you and stop allowing it > to dictate your actions? > ---------------------------------------- Well, some of us have more outspoken styles of anger than others. But as for the " don't you think it's time to put it behind you " thing -- for me, in particular, it's not possible. You see, my company has a policy of " recheck testing " all employees who had a previous " positive " d/a test (and have undergone the draconian 12-step-based " treatment " ) for a period of a year, at least once a month. I have been singled out for continued and intensified recheck testing, for the SOLE reason that I will not attend AA. (I successfully sued for the right to stop attending.) This morning I was sent for my 138th recheck test (in a 2-year period). All such tests for both drugs and alcohol have been 100% negative, and I have letters on record from 2 doctors and 2 psychologists that I am not and have never been " alcoholic " , " addicted " , or alcohol-dependent. Of course, I have nothing to " hide " in my breath or urine, but my anger cannot abate while I continue to be subjected to this indignity simply because I reject the " happy, joyous, and free " 12-step religion. ~Rita > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [click here] > Click Here! > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 1999 Report Share Posted September 27, 1999 An excellent idea Bjorn. To my way of thinking, criticism coming from a mainstream institution, certainly the church itself, would be a dream come true. Any hierarchical, mainstream institution criticizing AA would get the attention of steppers (after all, it seems that's what they respond to), and if this were to happen inside the AA hierarchy itself..... well, implosion is the hopeful word that comes to mind. Unfortunately I also think that there is always an element within the church that feels any introduction to God, be it by court order or any other strong-arming is, in their opinion, for the greater good and will defend court ordered religion (AA). Bjørn Herring wrote: snipped > Lately I've got a free 4 week subscription of our national religious > newspaper, which is slightly leftist and in accordance with the general > religious foundation. > > Could be a good place to start a debate about AA. > > Take care. > > Bjørn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 1999 Report Share Posted September 27, 1999 An excellent idea Bjorn. To my way of thinking, criticism coming from a mainstream institution, certainly the church itself, would be a dream come true. Any hierarchical, mainstream institution criticizing AA would get the attention of steppers (after all, it seems that's what they respond to), and if this were to happen inside the AA hierarchy itself..... well, implosion is the hopeful word that comes to mind. Unfortunately I also think that there is always an element within the church that feels any introduction to God, be it by court order or any other strong-arming is, in their opinion, for the greater good and will defend court ordered religion (AA). Bjørn Herring wrote: snipped > Lately I've got a free 4 week subscription of our national religious > newspaper, which is slightly leftist and in accordance with the general > religious foundation. > > Could be a good place to start a debate about AA. > > Take care. > > Bjørn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 1999 Report Share Posted September 28, 1999 Hey rita, Cant you sue over this too? Isnt this harassment of an employee, and religious descrimination as a result of you refusing to participate in a religious organization? Pete railroadrit-@... wrote: Well, some of us have more outspoken styles of anger than others. But as for the " don't you think it's time to put it behind you " thing -- for me, in particular, it's not possible. You see, my company has a policy of " recheck testing " all employees who had a previous " positive " d/a test (and have undergone the draconian 12-step-based " treatment " ) for a period of a year, at least once a month. I have been singled out for continued and intensified recheck testing, for the SOLE reason that I will not attend AA. (I successfully sued for the right to stop attending.) This morning I was sent for my 138th recheck test (in a 2-year period). All such tests for both drugs and alcohol have been 100% negative, and I have letters on record from 2 doctors and 2 psychologists that I am not and have never been " alcoholic " , " addicted " , or alcohol-dependent. Of course, I have nothing to " hide " in my breath or urine, but my anger cannot abate while I continue to be subjected to this indignity simply because I reject the " happy, joyous, and free " 12-step religion. ~Rita > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 1999 Report Share Posted October 1, 1999 Hi. Would you mind telling me on what legal grounds you were able to recind the order to attend AA.? Very important stuff to my way of thinking. Thank you very much. > Snipped > for a period of a year, at least once a month. I have been singled out > for continued and intensified recheck testing, for the SOLE reason that > I will not attend AA. (I successfully sued for the right to stop > attending.) snipped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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