Forgiveness, Acceptance and the Issue of Social Responsibility

[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh, Apple, folks

I agree with you Kayleigh. When I tried to make this point on a

(supposedly) AA neutral list, the AA members replied that they had

never known victims of crimes this severe treated this way. they could

be lying, but they sounded sincere.

Pete

kayleigh-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8370

> Apple -

>

> " Relapse " should be " recidivism, " " grizzly " should be " grisly. "

>

> I think this is a good essay, but could you choose a less heinous

> crime? AA members will respond that they would never say such things

> under these circumstances, and perhaps rightly so. The only time I

> have ever seen a group struck speechless was when a man spoke of his

> grief over the recent death from meningitis of his 18-month-old

child.

> It seemed as though everyone present realized that this was a

situation

> page 449 could not address, nor could any other of the slogans that

> usually sprang to their lips.

>

> It's no good attacking AA for hypothetical actions that they really

> would not engage in. Would groups in your community have responded in

> this manner?

>

> appledt-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8362

> > Rough draft... comments?

> > Apple

> >

> >

> >

> > Forgiveness, Acceptance and the Issue of Social Responsibility

> >

> > forgive, Forgive.... FORGIVE everyone..... and be free, Free, FREE

of

> > resentment. God, not we, is in charge. Does this popular AA chant

> > sound familiar?

> >

> > I will start out with a case scenario:

> >

> > Kanka, a six year old girl from New Jersey was brutally raped

> and

> > murdered by ??, a convicted child molester who was released from

> prison

> > after serving ?? years for a prior case of child molestation. Mrs.

> > Kanka, little 's mother, outraged and rightfully so, not only

> > pursued the conviction of .... but has become active in getting

> 's

> > Law passed, a controversial, yet needed law which would make the

names

> > and addresses of child molesters public, so that parents could learn

> if

> > such " former " criminals reside in their neighborhoods, since the

> > relapse rate for child molesters is so high.

> >

> > Luckily for us, Mrs. Kanka was an " earth person " or " normie " ,

because

> > if she were not, we may not have 's Law today. Let me explain:

> >

> > Mrs. Kanka's little girl, died a horrible death. A grizzly rape and

> > murder which was completely undeserved. Her young life was stolen

> from

> > her, through a brutal crime. Mrs. Kanka's grief is understandable,

> her

> > anger justifiable.

> >

> > Her strong feelings motivated her to notify the police and

> subsequently

> > to effect the arrest and conviction of the perpetrator, sending him

to

> > prison so the safety of the public could be assured, and justice

could

> > be served.

> >

> > Furthermore, Mrs. Kanka channeled her justifiable anger to effect

> > positive social change by working for the passing of 's Law, to

> > help protect other children and parents from such horrors.

> >

> > But what would have happened if Mrs. Kanka had been an AA member?

> >

> > 1. Would Mrs. Kanka have been labeled as sick for holding a

> resentment

> > too long?

> > 2. Would she have been told to " look at her part " ?

> > Why wasn't she with her daughter? Why was her daughter playing

> > alone? Did she dress her six year old daughter too sexy? Did

little

> > ask for it? Was little a tease who got what was coming

to

> > her?

> > 3. The question of her " irresponsible mothering " would have come up

> in

> > the quest for " her part " .

> > 4. Would Mrs. Kanka have been instructed by her fellow AAs to

prepare

> > caffeinated beverages for her peers in order to get out of herself?

> > 5. Would she have been told to pray for the murderer until her

> > resentment goes away?

> > 6. Would she have been pressured to forgive?

> > 7. Would her AA peers gently remind her that she's " powerless " over

> > the situation, that she should " practice acceptance " , and that God

> will

> > take care of it all if she hits her knees every night and prays.

> > 8. Would she have been told that the murderer is just a sick child

of

> > God who needs to be treated with the same gentleness and care as an

> ill

> > person who has pneumonia? (see page 898 of the Big Book)

> > 9. Would she have tossed and turned for months and years

afterwards,

> > wondering, how she had disobeyed " God's Will " and invited this

tragedy

> > upon herself?

> > 10. Would she have had to wrestle with the idea that God would

> protect

> > other children if she only prayed rightly, rather than pursuing the

> > passing of a law?

> > 11. Would her pursuit of the passing of 's Law be seen by her

> > peers as meddling with the affairs of God?

> > 12. Would Mrs. Kanka have been shamed by her AA group, because her

> > visible display of emotions reminded the child molesters in her AA

> > home group of their own past crimes, and made them feel guilty for

it.

> > (shame Mrs. Kanka!)

> > 13. Would Mrs. Kanka's sponsor have told her to read page 449 of

the

> > Big Book? The bit about " acceptance is the answer to all my

problems

> > today. "

> > 14. Would Mrs. Kanka's strong emotions have been labeled dangerous

--

> > a sign of potential relapse, possibly causing her fellow AAs to pull

> > away from her because it's disruptive to their serenity to be in the

> > company of a highly emotionally charged person?

> > 15. Would Mrs. Kanka's grieving process be curtailed with group

> > pressure to " get out of herself " and help newcomers... the ones who

> are

> > REALLY suffering?

> >

> >

> > My answer, is I hope like hell not! I hope that we could answer NO

to

> > all of the above questions! But sadly, I'm not sure that we

could. I

> > have heard too many cases where the victim was made to suffer

further

> > in the rooms of AA, and this disgusts me to no end.

> >

> > I have heard too many stories of malicious individuals who are let

off

> > the hook, so to speak, for their actions, however heinous, provided

> > that they admit to themselves, God and to another person the exact

> > nature of their wrongs. Reparations to the victim or justice

served?

> > None!

> >

> > Sometimes victims project feelings of guilt and shame onto criminals

> to

> > comfort themselves and to try to cope psychologically.

> >

> > " I know what guilt feels like. I'm sure God's punishing him with

> > guilt! " they may say.

> > Let's test the accuracy of that assumption:

> >

> > The typical psychological profile of sociopaths and psychopaths

show

> > 1) little affect (shallowness of feeling)

> > 2) a lack of compassion/guilt

> >

> > Here are some excellent links for learning more about these

antisocial

> > personality disorders which characterize many (but not all)

criminals:

> >

> > So premature forgiveness, can and does, in many cases, leave the

crime

> > unaddressed, and the criminal walking around, without the internal

> > reminder of guilt or the external reminder of justice. Something is

> > missing here.

> >

> > Furthermore,what are the chances that the sociopath will reviolate

> > under these conditions? High.

> > What are the chances that he will reviolate if we pray rightly?

(drum

> > roll...............) High.

> >

> > In such cases, taking action by " Turning it over " is taking no

> action.

> > It is teaching criminals that they can get away with what they've

done

> > without consequences, that their victims are the sick ones for

having

> > anger or resentment.

> >

> > This attitude does not make me feel safe in this world. I do not

want

> > to see our criminal justice system replaced with a judge who simply

> > says " The people of this state find you guilty as charged, but we

> > forgive you, so go on your merry way and we'll try not to be angry " .

> >

> > " Duh.... okay judge.... " [slash slash] [murder murder] [rape rape]

> > " Duh... what was YOUR part little miss victim? You owe me an

> amends....

> > ha ha ha ha ha ha " [slash slash] [murder murder] [rape rape]

> >

> > Nobody is helped by blind forgiveness and blanket acceptance of

evil!

> > Not the victim, not the perpetrator and not the community!

> >

> > And as for acceptance being the answer to all our problems today?

> > Baloney! We could thank the fathers of our country who fought the

> > British for our independence that they did not possess such a world

> > view. We can thank Abraham Lincoln and Luther King for being

> > proactive rather than passively accepting of world conditions.

> >

> > Here's a little quote on acceptance from " Your Erroneous Zones " by

Dr.

> > Wayne Dyer:

> >

> > Progress, yours personally and the world's depends on unreasonable

> men,

> > rather than people who adapt to their society and accept whatever

> comes

> > along. Progress depends on individuals who are innovators, who

reject

> > convention and fashion their own worlds. In order to shift from

> coping

> > to doing, you'll have to learn to resist enculturation and the many

> > pressures to conform. To function fully, a resistance to

> enculturation

> > is almost a given. You may be viewed by some as insubordinate,

which

> > is the price you'll have to pay for thinking for yourself. You may

be

> > seen as different, be labeled selfish or rebellious, incur

disapproval

> > from many " normal " people, and at times be ostracized. Some people

> will

> > not take kindly to your resistance to norms they've adopted for

> > themselves. You'll hear the old argument of, " What if everybody

> decided

> > to obey only the rules they wanted to? What kind of society would we

> > have then? " The simple answer to this, of course is that everybody

> > won't! Most people's addiction to external supports and shoulds

> > prohibits such a stand.

> >

> > What we're talking about here has nothing to do with anarchy. No one

> > wants to destroy society, but many of us would like to give the

> > individual more freedom within it, freedom from meaningless musts

and

> > silly shoulds.

> >

> > Even sensible laws and rules will not apply under every set of

> > circumstances. What we are striving for is choice, that is, the

> ability

> > to be free from the servant mentality of constant adherence to the

> > shoulds.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh, Apple, folks

I agree with you Kayleigh. When I tried to make this point on a

(supposedly) AA neutral list, the AA members replied that they had

never known victims of crimes this severe treated this way. they could

be lying, but they sounded sincere.

Pete

kayleigh-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8370

> Apple -

>

> " Relapse " should be " recidivism, " " grizzly " should be " grisly. "

>

> I think this is a good essay, but could you choose a less heinous

> crime? AA members will respond that they would never say such things

> under these circumstances, and perhaps rightly so. The only time I

> have ever seen a group struck speechless was when a man spoke of his

> grief over the recent death from meningitis of his 18-month-old

child.

> It seemed as though everyone present realized that this was a

situation

> page 449 could not address, nor could any other of the slogans that

> usually sprang to their lips.

>

> It's no good attacking AA for hypothetical actions that they really

> would not engage in. Would groups in your community have responded in

> this manner?

>

> appledt-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8362

> > Rough draft... comments?

> > Apple

> >

> >

> >

> > Forgiveness, Acceptance and the Issue of Social Responsibility

> >

> > forgive, Forgive.... FORGIVE everyone..... and be free, Free, FREE

of

> > resentment. God, not we, is in charge. Does this popular AA chant

> > sound familiar?

> >

> > I will start out with a case scenario:

> >

> > Kanka, a six year old girl from New Jersey was brutally raped

> and

> > murdered by ??, a convicted child molester who was released from

> prison

> > after serving ?? years for a prior case of child molestation. Mrs.

> > Kanka, little 's mother, outraged and rightfully so, not only

> > pursued the conviction of .... but has become active in getting

> 's

> > Law passed, a controversial, yet needed law which would make the

names

> > and addresses of child molesters public, so that parents could learn

> if

> > such " former " criminals reside in their neighborhoods, since the

> > relapse rate for child molesters is so high.

> >

> > Luckily for us, Mrs. Kanka was an " earth person " or " normie " ,

because

> > if she were not, we may not have 's Law today. Let me explain:

> >

> > Mrs. Kanka's little girl, died a horrible death. A grizzly rape and

> > murder which was completely undeserved. Her young life was stolen

> from

> > her, through a brutal crime. Mrs. Kanka's grief is understandable,

> her

> > anger justifiable.

> >

> > Her strong feelings motivated her to notify the police and

> subsequently

> > to effect the arrest and conviction of the perpetrator, sending him

to

> > prison so the safety of the public could be assured, and justice

could

> > be served.

> >

> > Furthermore, Mrs. Kanka channeled her justifiable anger to effect

> > positive social change by working for the passing of 's Law, to

> > help protect other children and parents from such horrors.

> >

> > But what would have happened if Mrs. Kanka had been an AA member?

> >

> > 1. Would Mrs. Kanka have been labeled as sick for holding a

> resentment

> > too long?

> > 2. Would she have been told to " look at her part " ?

> > Why wasn't she with her daughter? Why was her daughter playing

> > alone? Did she dress her six year old daughter too sexy? Did

little

> > ask for it? Was little a tease who got what was coming

to

> > her?

> > 3. The question of her " irresponsible mothering " would have come up

> in

> > the quest for " her part " .

> > 4. Would Mrs. Kanka have been instructed by her fellow AAs to

prepare

> > caffeinated beverages for her peers in order to get out of herself?

> > 5. Would she have been told to pray for the murderer until her

> > resentment goes away?

> > 6. Would she have been pressured to forgive?

> > 7. Would her AA peers gently remind her that she's " powerless " over

> > the situation, that she should " practice acceptance " , and that God

> will

> > take care of it all if she hits her knees every night and prays.

> > 8. Would she have been told that the murderer is just a sick child

of

> > God who needs to be treated with the same gentleness and care as an

> ill

> > person who has pneumonia? (see page 898 of the Big Book)

> > 9. Would she have tossed and turned for months and years

afterwards,

> > wondering, how she had disobeyed " God's Will " and invited this

tragedy

> > upon herself?

> > 10. Would she have had to wrestle with the idea that God would

> protect

> > other children if she only prayed rightly, rather than pursuing the

> > passing of a law?

> > 11. Would her pursuit of the passing of 's Law be seen by her

> > peers as meddling with the affairs of God?

> > 12. Would Mrs. Kanka have been shamed by her AA group, because her

> > visible display of emotions reminded the child molesters in her AA

> > home group of their own past crimes, and made them feel guilty for

it.

> > (shame Mrs. Kanka!)

> > 13. Would Mrs. Kanka's sponsor have told her to read page 449 of

the

> > Big Book? The bit about " acceptance is the answer to all my

problems

> > today. "

> > 14. Would Mrs. Kanka's strong emotions have been labeled dangerous

--

> > a sign of potential relapse, possibly causing her fellow AAs to pull

> > away from her because it's disruptive to their serenity to be in the

> > company of a highly emotionally charged person?

> > 15. Would Mrs. Kanka's grieving process be curtailed with group

> > pressure to " get out of herself " and help newcomers... the ones who

> are

> > REALLY suffering?

> >

> >

> > My answer, is I hope like hell not! I hope that we could answer NO

to

> > all of the above questions! But sadly, I'm not sure that we

could. I

> > have heard too many cases where the victim was made to suffer

further

> > in the rooms of AA, and this disgusts me to no end.

> >

> > I have heard too many stories of malicious individuals who are let

off

> > the hook, so to speak, for their actions, however heinous, provided

> > that they admit to themselves, God and to another person the exact

> > nature of their wrongs. Reparations to the victim or justice

served?

> > None!

> >

> > Sometimes victims project feelings of guilt and shame onto criminals

> to

> > comfort themselves and to try to cope psychologically.

> >

> > " I know what guilt feels like. I'm sure God's punishing him with

> > guilt! " they may say.

> > Let's test the accuracy of that assumption:

> >

> > The typical psychological profile of sociopaths and psychopaths

show

> > 1) little affect (shallowness of feeling)

> > 2) a lack of compassion/guilt

> >

> > Here are some excellent links for learning more about these

antisocial

> > personality disorders which characterize many (but not all)

criminals:

> >

> > So premature forgiveness, can and does, in many cases, leave the

crime

> > unaddressed, and the criminal walking around, without the internal

> > reminder of guilt or the external reminder of justice. Something is

> > missing here.

> >

> > Furthermore,what are the chances that the sociopath will reviolate

> > under these conditions? High.

> > What are the chances that he will reviolate if we pray rightly?

(drum

> > roll...............) High.

> >

> > In such cases, taking action by " Turning it over " is taking no

> action.

> > It is teaching criminals that they can get away with what they've

done

> > without consequences, that their victims are the sick ones for

having

> > anger or resentment.

> >

> > This attitude does not make me feel safe in this world. I do not

want

> > to see our criminal justice system replaced with a judge who simply

> > says " The people of this state find you guilty as charged, but we

> > forgive you, so go on your merry way and we'll try not to be angry " .

> >

> > " Duh.... okay judge.... " [slash slash] [murder murder] [rape rape]

> > " Duh... what was YOUR part little miss victim? You owe me an

> amends....

> > ha ha ha ha ha ha " [slash slash] [murder murder] [rape rape]

> >

> > Nobody is helped by blind forgiveness and blanket acceptance of

evil!

> > Not the victim, not the perpetrator and not the community!

> >

> > And as for acceptance being the answer to all our problems today?

> > Baloney! We could thank the fathers of our country who fought the

> > British for our independence that they did not possess such a world

> > view. We can thank Abraham Lincoln and Luther King for being

> > proactive rather than passively accepting of world conditions.

> >

> > Here's a little quote on acceptance from " Your Erroneous Zones " by

Dr.

> > Wayne Dyer:

> >

> > Progress, yours personally and the world's depends on unreasonable

> men,

> > rather than people who adapt to their society and accept whatever

> comes

> > along. Progress depends on individuals who are innovators, who

reject

> > convention and fashion their own worlds. In order to shift from

> coping

> > to doing, you'll have to learn to resist enculturation and the many

> > pressures to conform. To function fully, a resistance to

> enculturation

> > is almost a given. You may be viewed by some as insubordinate,

which

> > is the price you'll have to pay for thinking for yourself. You may

be

> > seen as different, be labeled selfish or rebellious, incur

disapproval

> > from many " normal " people, and at times be ostracized. Some people

> will

> > not take kindly to your resistance to norms they've adopted for

> > themselves. You'll hear the old argument of, " What if everybody

> decided

> > to obey only the rules they wanted to? What kind of society would we

> > have then? " The simple answer to this, of course is that everybody

> > won't! Most people's addiction to external supports and shoulds

> > prohibits such a stand.

> >

> > What we're talking about here has nothing to do with anarchy. No one

> > wants to destroy society, but many of us would like to give the

> > individual more freedom within it, freedom from meaningless musts

and

> > silly shoulds.

> >

> > Even sensible laws and rules will not apply under every set of

> > circumstances. What we are striving for is choice, that is, the

> ability

> > to be free from the servant mentality of constant adherence to the

> > shoulds.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh, Apple, folks

I agree with you Kayleigh. When I tried to make this point on a

(supposedly) AA neutral list, the AA members replied that they had

never known victims of crimes this severe treated this way. they could

be lying, but they sounded sincere.

Pete

kayleigh-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8370

> Apple -

>

> " Relapse " should be " recidivism, " " grizzly " should be " grisly. "

>

> I think this is a good essay, but could you choose a less heinous

> crime? AA members will respond that they would never say such things

> under these circumstances, and perhaps rightly so. The only time I

> have ever seen a group struck speechless was when a man spoke of his

> grief over the recent death from meningitis of his 18-month-old

child.

> It seemed as though everyone present realized that this was a

situation

> page 449 could not address, nor could any other of the slogans that

> usually sprang to their lips.

>

> It's no good attacking AA for hypothetical actions that they really

> would not engage in. Would groups in your community have responded in

> this manner?

>

> appledt-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8362

> > Rough draft... comments?

> > Apple

> >

> >

> >

> > Forgiveness, Acceptance and the Issue of Social Responsibility

> >

> > forgive, Forgive.... FORGIVE everyone..... and be free, Free, FREE

of

> > resentment. God, not we, is in charge. Does this popular AA chant

> > sound familiar?

> >

> > I will start out with a case scenario:

> >

> > Kanka, a six year old girl from New Jersey was brutally raped

> and

> > murdered by ??, a convicted child molester who was released from

> prison

> > after serving ?? years for a prior case of child molestation. Mrs.

> > Kanka, little 's mother, outraged and rightfully so, not only

> > pursued the conviction of .... but has become active in getting

> 's

> > Law passed, a controversial, yet needed law which would make the

names

> > and addresses of child molesters public, so that parents could learn

> if

> > such " former " criminals reside in their neighborhoods, since the

> > relapse rate for child molesters is so high.

> >

> > Luckily for us, Mrs. Kanka was an " earth person " or " normie " ,

because

> > if she were not, we may not have 's Law today. Let me explain:

> >

> > Mrs. Kanka's little girl, died a horrible death. A grizzly rape and

> > murder which was completely undeserved. Her young life was stolen

> from

> > her, through a brutal crime. Mrs. Kanka's grief is understandable,

> her

> > anger justifiable.

> >

> > Her strong feelings motivated her to notify the police and

> subsequently

> > to effect the arrest and conviction of the perpetrator, sending him

to

> > prison so the safety of the public could be assured, and justice

could

> > be served.

> >

> > Furthermore, Mrs. Kanka channeled her justifiable anger to effect

> > positive social change by working for the passing of 's Law, to

> > help protect other children and parents from such horrors.

> >

> > But what would have happened if Mrs. Kanka had been an AA member?

> >

> > 1. Would Mrs. Kanka have been labeled as sick for holding a

> resentment

> > too long?

> > 2. Would she have been told to " look at her part " ?

> > Why wasn't she with her daughter? Why was her daughter playing

> > alone? Did she dress her six year old daughter too sexy? Did

little

> > ask for it? Was little a tease who got what was coming

to

> > her?

> > 3. The question of her " irresponsible mothering " would have come up

> in

> > the quest for " her part " .

> > 4. Would Mrs. Kanka have been instructed by her fellow AAs to

prepare

> > caffeinated beverages for her peers in order to get out of herself?

> > 5. Would she have been told to pray for the murderer until her

> > resentment goes away?

> > 6. Would she have been pressured to forgive?

> > 7. Would her AA peers gently remind her that she's " powerless " over

> > the situation, that she should " practice acceptance " , and that God

> will

> > take care of it all if she hits her knees every night and prays.

> > 8. Would she have been told that the murderer is just a sick child

of

> > God who needs to be treated with the same gentleness and care as an

> ill

> > person who has pneumonia? (see page 898 of the Big Book)

> > 9. Would she have tossed and turned for months and years

afterwards,

> > wondering, how she had disobeyed " God's Will " and invited this

tragedy

> > upon herself?

> > 10. Would she have had to wrestle with the idea that God would

> protect

> > other children if she only prayed rightly, rather than pursuing the

> > passing of a law?

> > 11. Would her pursuit of the passing of 's Law be seen by her

> > peers as meddling with the affairs of God?

> > 12. Would Mrs. Kanka have been shamed by her AA group, because her

> > visible display of emotions reminded the child molesters in her AA

> > home group of their own past crimes, and made them feel guilty for

it.

> > (shame Mrs. Kanka!)

> > 13. Would Mrs. Kanka's sponsor have told her to read page 449 of

the

> > Big Book? The bit about " acceptance is the answer to all my

problems

> > today. "

> > 14. Would Mrs. Kanka's strong emotions have been labeled dangerous

--

> > a sign of potential relapse, possibly causing her fellow AAs to pull

> > away from her because it's disruptive to their serenity to be in the

> > company of a highly emotionally charged person?

> > 15. Would Mrs. Kanka's grieving process be curtailed with group

> > pressure to " get out of herself " and help newcomers... the ones who

> are

> > REALLY suffering?

> >

> >

> > My answer, is I hope like hell not! I hope that we could answer NO

to

> > all of the above questions! But sadly, I'm not sure that we

could. I

> > have heard too many cases where the victim was made to suffer

further

> > in the rooms of AA, and this disgusts me to no end.

> >

> > I have heard too many stories of malicious individuals who are let

off

> > the hook, so to speak, for their actions, however heinous, provided

> > that they admit to themselves, God and to another person the exact

> > nature of their wrongs. Reparations to the victim or justice

served?

> > None!

> >

> > Sometimes victims project feelings of guilt and shame onto criminals

> to

> > comfort themselves and to try to cope psychologically.

> >

> > " I know what guilt feels like. I'm sure God's punishing him with

> > guilt! " they may say.

> > Let's test the accuracy of that assumption:

> >

> > The typical psychological profile of sociopaths and psychopaths

show

> > 1) little affect (shallowness of feeling)

> > 2) a lack of compassion/guilt

> >

> > Here are some excellent links for learning more about these

antisocial

> > personality disorders which characterize many (but not all)

criminals:

> >

> > So premature forgiveness, can and does, in many cases, leave the

crime

> > unaddressed, and the criminal walking around, without the internal

> > reminder of guilt or the external reminder of justice. Something is

> > missing here.

> >

> > Furthermore,what are the chances that the sociopath will reviolate

> > under these conditions? High.

> > What are the chances that he will reviolate if we pray rightly?

(drum

> > roll...............) High.

> >

> > In such cases, taking action by " Turning it over " is taking no

> action.

> > It is teaching criminals that they can get away with what they've

done

> > without consequences, that their victims are the sick ones for

having

> > anger or resentment.

> >

> > This attitude does not make me feel safe in this world. I do not

want

> > to see our criminal justice system replaced with a judge who simply

> > says " The people of this state find you guilty as charged, but we

> > forgive you, so go on your merry way and we'll try not to be angry " .

> >

> > " Duh.... okay judge.... " [slash slash] [murder murder] [rape rape]

> > " Duh... what was YOUR part little miss victim? You owe me an

> amends....

> > ha ha ha ha ha ha " [slash slash] [murder murder] [rape rape]

> >

> > Nobody is helped by blind forgiveness and blanket acceptance of

evil!

> > Not the victim, not the perpetrator and not the community!

> >

> > And as for acceptance being the answer to all our problems today?

> > Baloney! We could thank the fathers of our country who fought the

> > British for our independence that they did not possess such a world

> > view. We can thank Abraham Lincoln and Luther King for being

> > proactive rather than passively accepting of world conditions.

> >

> > Here's a little quote on acceptance from " Your Erroneous Zones " by

Dr.

> > Wayne Dyer:

> >

> > Progress, yours personally and the world's depends on unreasonable

> men,

> > rather than people who adapt to their society and accept whatever

> comes

> > along. Progress depends on individuals who are innovators, who

reject

> > convention and fashion their own worlds. In order to shift from

> coping

> > to doing, you'll have to learn to resist enculturation and the many

> > pressures to conform. To function fully, a resistance to

> enculturation

> > is almost a given. You may be viewed by some as insubordinate,

which

> > is the price you'll have to pay for thinking for yourself. You may

be

> > seen as different, be labeled selfish or rebellious, incur

disapproval

> > from many " normal " people, and at times be ostracized. Some people

> will

> > not take kindly to your resistance to norms they've adopted for

> > themselves. You'll hear the old argument of, " What if everybody

> decided

> > to obey only the rules they wanted to? What kind of society would we

> > have then? " The simple answer to this, of course is that everybody

> > won't! Most people's addiction to external supports and shoulds

> > prohibits such a stand.

> >

> > What we're talking about here has nothing to do with anarchy. No one

> > wants to destroy society, but many of us would like to give the

> > individual more freedom within it, freedom from meaningless musts

and

> > silly shoulds.

> >

> > Even sensible laws and rules will not apply under every set of

> > circumstances. What we are striving for is choice, that is, the

> ability

> > to be free from the servant mentality of constant adherence to the

> > shoulds.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

dmarcoo-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8402

> jack,

> nice pesonal story, very moving. its my belief that once you get

clean

> and sober, all that 12 step group have to beat you down with as

signs

> of your " disease " is your own humanity.

>

> i ahev a great essay by the sports writer of thewashngton post on GA

> how he believes its misguided if your interested.

Hi Dave

I'd like a copy of this please.

Tx,

Pete

>

> dave

>

>

> jackandj-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8401

> > kayleigh-@... wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

388

> > > I agree that AAers are clueless when it comes to sympathizing

with a

> > > real loss.

> >

> > On the day I got my first GA (gambler's) Chip for 6 months good

> > behavior, I got to give the " guest " recitation of my story. I had

> > rushed back to Vegas from SAn Francisco, where I had accidently run

> > into the very first public showing of the Aids Quilt (1987). I had

to

> > rush back because I didn't want to miss the " honor " that was to be

> > bestowed upon me that night. While at the quilt viewing, I found a

> > panel in memory of my very first boyfriend from college. I was

> > grieving him, and sorrowful about now having been personally touched

> by

> > the plague, which had only existed as rumor to me at that point. I

> > added this this new chapter to my " story " (gamblelog) at the

meeting.

> I

> > was actually crying in public and at the podium no less. Expressing

> my

> > grief and sorrow did make me feel better. After the meeting, Mike I.

> > (12 years abstinent, who declared at every available opportunity

that

> > Jesus was his higher power) literally dragged me into the hallway,

and

> > told me that what I had said was totally inappropriate for a

meeting,

> > and that I had better never tell that story again. He told me that I

> > was supposed to tell only how bad it was out there and that I was

now

> > happy and joyous and free, and that Serenity kept me from feeling

> > otherwise and that my serenity came from my program. period!

> >

> > Until tonight, (because of having read Apples Essay, and the

critiques

> > and stories about AA's failure regarding expressing emotion vs.

> > stuffing, and other posts relating to it in this thread,) I thought

he

> > was talking about never mentioning being gay, Aids, etc. I went back

> > into the closet at GA for the rest of my time. It suddenly dawned

on

> > me a few minutes ago that he was actually talking about my

emotions. I

> > had put those into the closet also while I was still a groupie.

But,

> > I'm crying while I'm typing this. Halelujah!

> >

> > PS, I heard from someone that mike gave up 22 years of abstinance

> > sometime last year by putting a quarter in a slot machine at the

7-11.

> > It was said he had the best program in the whole city, and was

> > great-great-great grandsponsor to hundreds of groupers. He had to

> > start all over again. Poor Mike, still powerless after all those

> > years! I'll bet Satan made him do it.

> >

> > Jack

> >

>

[Guest guest]

dmarcoo-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8402

> jack,

> nice pesonal story, very moving. its my belief that once you get

clean

> and sober, all that 12 step group have to beat you down with as

signs

> of your " disease " is your own humanity.

>

> i ahev a great essay by the sports writer of thewashngton post on GA

> how he believes its misguided if your interested.

Hi Dave

I'd like a copy of this please.

Tx,

Pete

>

> dave

>

>

> jackandj-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8401

> > kayleigh-@... wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

388

> > > I agree that AAers are clueless when it comes to sympathizing

with a

> > > real loss.

> >

> > On the day I got my first GA (gambler's) Chip for 6 months good

> > behavior, I got to give the " guest " recitation of my story. I had

> > rushed back to Vegas from SAn Francisco, where I had accidently run

> > into the very first public showing of the Aids Quilt (1987). I had

to

> > rush back because I didn't want to miss the " honor " that was to be

> > bestowed upon me that night. While at the quilt viewing, I found a

> > panel in memory of my very first boyfriend from college. I was

> > grieving him, and sorrowful about now having been personally touched

> by

> > the plague, which had only existed as rumor to me at that point. I

> > added this this new chapter to my " story " (gamblelog) at the

meeting.

> I

> > was actually crying in public and at the podium no less. Expressing

> my

> > grief and sorrow did make me feel better. After the meeting, Mike I.

> > (12 years abstinent, who declared at every available opportunity

that

> > Jesus was his higher power) literally dragged me into the hallway,

and

> > told me that what I had said was totally inappropriate for a

meeting,

> > and that I had better never tell that story again. He told me that I

> > was supposed to tell only how bad it was out there and that I was

now

> > happy and joyous and free, and that Serenity kept me from feeling

> > otherwise and that my serenity came from my program. period!

> >

> > Until tonight, (because of having read Apples Essay, and the

critiques

> > and stories about AA's failure regarding expressing emotion vs.

> > stuffing, and other posts relating to it in this thread,) I thought

he

> > was talking about never mentioning being gay, Aids, etc. I went back

> > into the closet at GA for the rest of my time. It suddenly dawned

on

> > me a few minutes ago that he was actually talking about my

emotions. I

> > had put those into the closet also while I was still a groupie.

But,

> > I'm crying while I'm typing this. Halelujah!

> >

> > PS, I heard from someone that mike gave up 22 years of abstinance

> > sometime last year by putting a quarter in a slot machine at the

7-11.

> > It was said he had the best program in the whole city, and was

> > great-great-great grandsponsor to hundreds of groupers. He had to

> > start all over again. Poor Mike, still powerless after all those

> > years! I'll bet Satan made him do it.

> >

> > Jack

> >

>

[Guest guest]

dmarcoo-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8402

> jack,

> nice pesonal story, very moving. its my belief that once you get

clean

> and sober, all that 12 step group have to beat you down with as

signs

> of your " disease " is your own humanity.

>

> i ahev a great essay by the sports writer of thewashngton post on GA

> how he believes its misguided if your interested.

Hi Dave

I'd like a copy of this please.

Tx,

Pete

>

> dave

>

>

> jackandj-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8401

> > kayleigh-@... wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8

388

> > > I agree that AAers are clueless when it comes to sympathizing

with a

> > > real loss.

> >

> > On the day I got my first GA (gambler's) Chip for 6 months good

> > behavior, I got to give the " guest " recitation of my story. I had

> > rushed back to Vegas from SAn Francisco, where I had accidently run

> > into the very first public showing of the Aids Quilt (1987). I had

to

> > rush back because I didn't want to miss the " honor " that was to be

> > bestowed upon me that night. While at the quilt viewing, I found a

> > panel in memory of my very first boyfriend from college. I was

> > grieving him, and sorrowful about now having been personally touched

> by

> > the plague, which had only existed as rumor to me at that point. I

> > added this this new chapter to my " story " (gamblelog) at the

meeting.

> I

> > was actually crying in public and at the podium no less. Expressing

> my

> > grief and sorrow did make me feel better. After the meeting, Mike I.

> > (12 years abstinent, who declared at every available opportunity

that

> > Jesus was his higher power) literally dragged me into the hallway,

and

> > told me that what I had said was totally inappropriate for a

meeting,

> > and that I had better never tell that story again. He told me that I

> > was supposed to tell only how bad it was out there and that I was

now

> > happy and joyous and free, and that Serenity kept me from feeling

> > otherwise and that my serenity came from my program. period!

> >

> > Until tonight, (because of having read Apples Essay, and the

critiques

> > and stories about AA's failure regarding expressing emotion vs.

> > stuffing, and other posts relating to it in this thread,) I thought

he

> > was talking about never mentioning being gay, Aids, etc. I went back

> > into the closet at GA for the rest of my time. It suddenly dawned

on

> > me a few minutes ago that he was actually talking about my

emotions. I

> > had put those into the closet also while I was still a groupie.

But,

> > I'm crying while I'm typing this. Halelujah!

> >

> > PS, I heard from someone that mike gave up 22 years of abstinance

> > sometime last year by putting a quarter in a slot machine at the

7-11.

> > It was said he had the best program in the whole city, and was

> > great-great-great grandsponsor to hundreds of groupers. He had to

> > start all over again. Poor Mike, still powerless after all those

> > years! I'll bet Satan made him do it.

> >

> > Jack

> >

>