Guest guest Posted September 8, 1999 Report Share Posted September 8, 1999 , I'm convinced that Bill and the early bunch were perpetrators themselves who did not want to face the music of their own actions. Boy, when I revealed my story to the group I'm sure there were perverts in the rooms who finally " saw " what those feelings are like. By the way, that's how they rehabilitate perpetrators (which is a virtual impossibility)... by creating a feeling of empathy within them. Most of them are totally clueless to the results of their actions... I had a shrink friend who got sucked into the stepper meld, but while we knew each other he told me that he refuses to do perpetrator groups because it sickens him... He did one in California and he said the guys were saying (about children mind you)... " she enjoyed it.. she was giggling " I'm planning a piece for the site which discusses how the steppers version of forgivness actually allows the incest/rape/abuse monster to thrive. No one is ever held accountable for their wrong actions, and the indivduals who were hurt are shamed for feeling anger or for having been in the wrong place at the wrong time (undoubtedly because they were ignoring God's will)... nice huh? Apple > Kayleigh: > > I remember making a statment similar to yours at a meeting probably 10 > years ago. I stated that I suspected that most of the women (I was > attending a women's meeting) had been abused. They looked at me as > though I had three heads. I think your observation on some people > making the connection is right on. I would venture that there is > repression, guilt and shame associated with surfacing and/or > resurfacing memories. > > One of my major difficulties with AA was exactly the point you made > regarding blame and fault-finding. If I am a child and forced into > incest with an adult, how can any of it be twisted into being my fault? > I was there, so it was my fault? This is a very fine example of > faulty logic. AA also encourages forgiveness and discourages anger. > Abused people experience rages. So an abused person should stuff away > all the rage at the injustice done and FORGIVE? More faulty logic. The > abused person needs to express that anger and learn how to deal with it > in a manner that is comfortable for them or they become like a pressure > cooker-ready to explode, or they can implode; turning the feelings > inward and becoming self-destructive. > > I am certain that the Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-Dum had no idea how to > address this issue in their Big Book of BS. Their generalizations have > damaged so many lives. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 1999 Report Share Posted September 8, 1999 , I'm convinced that Bill and the early bunch were perpetrators themselves who did not want to face the music of their own actions. Boy, when I revealed my story to the group I'm sure there were perverts in the rooms who finally " saw " what those feelings are like. By the way, that's how they rehabilitate perpetrators (which is a virtual impossibility)... by creating a feeling of empathy within them. Most of them are totally clueless to the results of their actions... I had a shrink friend who got sucked into the stepper meld, but while we knew each other he told me that he refuses to do perpetrator groups because it sickens him... He did one in California and he said the guys were saying (about children mind you)... " she enjoyed it.. she was giggling " I'm planning a piece for the site which discusses how the steppers version of forgivness actually allows the incest/rape/abuse monster to thrive. No one is ever held accountable for their wrong actions, and the indivduals who were hurt are shamed for feeling anger or for having been in the wrong place at the wrong time (undoubtedly because they were ignoring God's will)... nice huh? Apple > Kayleigh: > > I remember making a statment similar to yours at a meeting probably 10 > years ago. I stated that I suspected that most of the women (I was > attending a women's meeting) had been abused. They looked at me as > though I had three heads. I think your observation on some people > making the connection is right on. I would venture that there is > repression, guilt and shame associated with surfacing and/or > resurfacing memories. > > One of my major difficulties with AA was exactly the point you made > regarding blame and fault-finding. If I am a child and forced into > incest with an adult, how can any of it be twisted into being my fault? > I was there, so it was my fault? This is a very fine example of > faulty logic. AA also encourages forgiveness and discourages anger. > Abused people experience rages. So an abused person should stuff away > all the rage at the injustice done and FORGIVE? More faulty logic. The > abused person needs to express that anger and learn how to deal with it > in a manner that is comfortable for them or they become like a pressure > cooker-ready to explode, or they can implode; turning the feelings > inward and becoming self-destructive. > > I am certain that the Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-Dum had no idea how to > address this issue in their Big Book of BS. Their generalizations have > damaged so many lives. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 1999 Report Share Posted September 8, 1999 , I'm convinced that Bill and the early bunch were perpetrators themselves who did not want to face the music of their own actions. Boy, when I revealed my story to the group I'm sure there were perverts in the rooms who finally " saw " what those feelings are like. By the way, that's how they rehabilitate perpetrators (which is a virtual impossibility)... by creating a feeling of empathy within them. Most of them are totally clueless to the results of their actions... I had a shrink friend who got sucked into the stepper meld, but while we knew each other he told me that he refuses to do perpetrator groups because it sickens him... He did one in California and he said the guys were saying (about children mind you)... " she enjoyed it.. she was giggling " I'm planning a piece for the site which discusses how the steppers version of forgivness actually allows the incest/rape/abuse monster to thrive. No one is ever held accountable for their wrong actions, and the indivduals who were hurt are shamed for feeling anger or for having been in the wrong place at the wrong time (undoubtedly because they were ignoring God's will)... nice huh? Apple > Kayleigh: > > I remember making a statment similar to yours at a meeting probably 10 > years ago. I stated that I suspected that most of the women (I was > attending a women's meeting) had been abused. They looked at me as > though I had three heads. I think your observation on some people > making the connection is right on. I would venture that there is > repression, guilt and shame associated with surfacing and/or > resurfacing memories. > > One of my major difficulties with AA was exactly the point you made > regarding blame and fault-finding. If I am a child and forced into > incest with an adult, how can any of it be twisted into being my fault? > I was there, so it was my fault? This is a very fine example of > faulty logic. AA also encourages forgiveness and discourages anger. > Abused people experience rages. So an abused person should stuff away > all the rage at the injustice done and FORGIVE? More faulty logic. The > abused person needs to express that anger and learn how to deal with it > in a manner that is comfortable for them or they become like a pressure > cooker-ready to explode, or they can implode; turning the feelings > inward and becoming self-destructive. > > I am certain that the Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-Dum had no idea how to > address this issue in their Big Book of BS. Their generalizations have > damaged so many lives. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 1999 Report Share Posted September 8, 1999 Please take me off your e-mail list for the time being. Iam having some problems with me site......Will contact you when to put me back on your list. Thank you Apple and keep up the 12 anti step page. Signed Pumpjet.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 1999 Report Share Posted September 8, 1999 Hi : It's sickening isn't it... It may be a while before that piece is written. I keep a file called " miscellaneous deprogramming junk " and dump all ideas into it. Eventually, I tie them together to produce a piece. I'm thinking of writing to counselors who rehabilitate abusers and asking them, " what would happen if these individuals were instantly forgiven, or if their victims apologized to them for having " teased " them and thus invited the attack? " I'm sure there would be some interesting letters. Apple > > Apple- > > Wow! What a thought-but you just may be right on with that. The way > Bill twisted things...it makes sense, and that's sadder still. I'm > sitting here sick to my stomach for all the abused people sitting with > perps at the AA tables. It is a far from safe place. You are right. > It does justify a perp's actions and directs the blame at the victim. > > Giggling in a situation such as abuse is a nervous reaction and is not > expressed out of " enjoyment " . There is no justification for abusing > anyone, but it looks like Bill and Bob are getting away with it. > > It seems as though the abused are further shamed and guilty are > justified. > > BTW, Apple; I studied with the Jehovah's Witnesses for a few years back > in the late 70's and came across much of what you have uncovered about > AA. But you are absolutely correct in assimilating the logic of both > groups. > > I am looking forward to reading your new section on perps and how they > use and abuse faulty logic in AA to justify themselves and point > fingers at innocent children. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 1999 Report Share Posted September 8, 1999 I didn't mean to sound callous, Apple, perhaps it is difficult for many people to get out of that mindset. I don't know at what age most people realize that they are not the center of the universe, and in my case it happened quite late, I think (25), but very suddenly. I was walking down a very populous street one day in a very bright dress and imagined everyone was looking at me (as I usually did), and suddenly I realized that there was no reason for them to be looking at me and that there were people who were not only more brightly dressed walking down that street, but also people who looked totally bizarre in terms of contemporary standards and that they were getting some attention, but really not a lot. That realization was a real breakthrough for me, and I generalized it to a lot of other situations. I felt very liberated, not only as to my role in the small world I live in, but also as to my need to be best at whatever I did. I enjoyed life a lot more after that. I will have to say that this ongoing enlightenment, which lasted for about a month, also initiated my breaking the bond with my parents, mostly my mother. But it is also true, though unfortunate, that my mother didn't stop being nasty to me until about ten years later. I just didn't take it very seriously for those ten years, realizing that it was her needs that prompted her to behave that way, and not my shortcomings. Perhaps I am naive in believing that it could be that simple for everyone. I was also lucky enough to have a father who didn't buy into her madness, though I think he could have taken a stronger stand against it. On the other hand, I don't think he witnessed a lot of it, since she knew he would disapprove. kayleigh-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7877 > > > It's amazing to me how many people who drink report having been abused > > as children. Some make the connection, some don't. The ones who > don't > > blame themselves for the abuse, plus they blame themselves for every > > hurt done to everyone else they've ever come into contact with. > > > > They seem to have caused everything that ever happened. Isn't it nice > > to be so powerful? Wouldn't most people call it arrogance? > > > I guess some people might.. nevertheless it took years for me to get > out of that mind-set. Where does it start? In the family... " I smacked > you because you were bad " . The one thought along the same vein, that > really did a lot of damage to me was my projection about rejection by > boyfriends " I dumped you because you're not good enough " . Boy, if I > was rejected by a guy, I would internalize it... I always dated beneath > me in intelligence and experience. I just always walked around with > this huge lump of inadequacy. Thank god for therapy. > > As far as parents are concerned, IMHO, it's important for people to go > through a process called " breaking the fantasy bond with the parents " . > Namely to start seeing their parents as flawed humans (this does not > negate the parent's love for the child, or good intentions of course). > Apple > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 1999 Report Share Posted September 11, 1999 Hi Apple, folks I motice that in the BB & 12 & 12 the only reference to domestic abuse is smashing the kitchen furniture - with all this hair shirt mea culpa, there is no reference to wife- or child-battering or sexual abuse, which will undoubtedly have featured in at least some cases. I do remember, however, talking abt " Some things we had thought we should take with us to the grave. " Adultery and swindles are mentioned, what could have been talking abt? I rather suspect that physical and sexual abuse is the answer. > , I'm convinced that Bill and the early bunch were perpetrators > themselves who did not want to face the music of their own actions. > Boy, when I revealed my story to the group I'm sure there were perverts > in the rooms who finally " saw " what those feelings are like. By the > way, that's how they rehabilitate perpetrators (which is a virtual > impossibility)... by creating a feeling of empathy within them. Most > of them are totally clueless to the results of their actions... I had a > shrink friend who got sucked into the stepper meld, but while we knew > each other he told me that he refuses to do perpetrator groups because > it sickens him... He did one in California and he said the guys were > saying (about children mind you)... " she enjoyed it.. she was giggling " > > > I'm planning a piece for the site which discusses how the steppers > version of forgivness actually allows the incest/rape/abuse monster to > thrive. No one is ever held accountable for their wrong actions, and > the indivduals who were hurt are shamed for feeling anger or for having > been in the wrong place at the wrong time (undoubtedly because they > were ignoring God's will)... nice huh? > > Apple > > > Kayleigh: > > > > I remember making a statment similar to yours at a meeting probably 10 > > years ago. I stated that I suspected that most of the women (I was > > attending a women's meeting) had been abused. They looked at me as > > though I had three heads. I think your observation on some people > > making the connection is right on. I would venture that there is > > repression, guilt and shame associated with surfacing and/or > > resurfacing memories. > > > > One of my major difficulties with AA was exactly the point you made > > regarding blame and fault-finding. If I am a child and forced into > > incest with an adult, how can any of it be twisted into being my > fault? > > I was there, so it was my fault? This is a very fine example of > > faulty logic. AA also encourages forgiveness and discourages anger. > > Abused people experience rages. So an abused person should stuff away > > all the rage at the injustice done and FORGIVE? More faulty logic. > The > > abused person needs to express that anger and learn how to deal with > it > > in a manner that is comfortable for them or they become like a > pressure > > cooker-ready to explode, or they can implode; turning the feelings > > inward and becoming self-destructive. > > > > I am certain that the Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-Dum had no idea how to > > address this issue in their Big Book of BS. Their generalizations > have > > damaged so many lives. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > http://clickhere./click/805 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ---------------------- Pete Watts Owner PSY-PHAR Psychotherapy/Pharmacotherapy Outocomes Discussion PERSONALITY-DISORDERS Support/Discussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 1999 Report Share Posted September 11, 1999 > I always dated beneath > me in intelligence and experience. I just always walked around with > this huge lump of inadequacy. An example of my own lack of self-esteem is my first reaction was to joke: " Hey Apple, I've never dated you. " ! Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 1999 Report Share Posted September 11, 1999 Pete, those things would rather take to the grave are probably more along the lines of " fun with goats " or " the day the whiskey made the dog look good " . I don't know if he would have had the same amount of shame over sexual abuse of young girls. Just a hunch. This makes me think of one of the " old timers " at the clubhouse I attended for many years. (seems clubhouses draw a worse lot than churches) Anyway, this " old timer's " story includes what I call detox hallucinations. The man swears that he was visited by Jesus Christ after a long bender, and didn't need to drink ever since. He's a grandpa, and at one time last year, he had no less than 10 sponsees. I didnt' know why this guy would make such a good sponsor, but then it hit me... the rule is to find someone who " has what you want " . What did gramps have? He was having a fling with one of the 19 year old girls from the club. Apple > Hi Apple, folks > > I motice that in the BB & 12 & 12 the only reference to domestic abuse is > smashing the kitchen furniture - with all this hair shirt mea culpa, there is > no reference to wife- or child-battering or sexual abuse, which will > undoubtedly have featured in at least some cases. I do remember, however, > talking abt " Some things we had thought we should take with us to the > grave. " Adultery and swindles are mentioned, what could have been > talking abt? I rather suspect that physical and sexual abuse is the answer. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 1999 Report Share Posted September 11, 1999 Pete, those things would rather take to the grave are probably more along the lines of " fun with goats " or " the day the whiskey made the dog look good " . I don't know if he would have had the same amount of shame over sexual abuse of young girls. Just a hunch. This makes me think of one of the " old timers " at the clubhouse I attended for many years. (seems clubhouses draw a worse lot than churches) Anyway, this " old timer's " story includes what I call detox hallucinations. The man swears that he was visited by Jesus Christ after a long bender, and didn't need to drink ever since. He's a grandpa, and at one time last year, he had no less than 10 sponsees. I didnt' know why this guy would make such a good sponsor, but then it hit me... the rule is to find someone who " has what you want " . What did gramps have? He was having a fling with one of the 19 year old girls from the club. Apple > Hi Apple, folks > > I motice that in the BB & 12 & 12 the only reference to domestic abuse is > smashing the kitchen furniture - with all this hair shirt mea culpa, there is > no reference to wife- or child-battering or sexual abuse, which will > undoubtedly have featured in at least some cases. I do remember, however, > talking abt " Some things we had thought we should take with us to the > grave. " Adultery and swindles are mentioned, what could have been > talking abt? I rather suspect that physical and sexual abuse is the answer. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 1999 Report Share Posted September 11, 1999 Pete, those things would rather take to the grave are probably more along the lines of " fun with goats " or " the day the whiskey made the dog look good " . I don't know if he would have had the same amount of shame over sexual abuse of young girls. Just a hunch. This makes me think of one of the " old timers " at the clubhouse I attended for many years. (seems clubhouses draw a worse lot than churches) Anyway, this " old timer's " story includes what I call detox hallucinations. The man swears that he was visited by Jesus Christ after a long bender, and didn't need to drink ever since. He's a grandpa, and at one time last year, he had no less than 10 sponsees. I didnt' know why this guy would make such a good sponsor, but then it hit me... the rule is to find someone who " has what you want " . What did gramps have? He was having a fling with one of the 19 year old girls from the club. Apple > Hi Apple, folks > > I motice that in the BB & 12 & 12 the only reference to domestic abuse is > smashing the kitchen furniture - with all this hair shirt mea culpa, there is > no reference to wife- or child-battering or sexual abuse, which will > undoubtedly have featured in at least some cases. I do remember, however, > talking abt " Some things we had thought we should take with us to the > grave. " Adultery and swindles are mentioned, what could have been > talking abt? I rather suspect that physical and sexual abuse is the answer. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 1999 Report Share Posted September 12, 1999 Hello Apple, I sure do enjoy reading your comments, especially those concerning vulnerable women falling victim to slimy men. Your insight is very valuable to me. I myself am still in the angry stage and find it difficult to express these feelings as they tend to come out of a place of hurt for me. One comment: I noticed you calling these men perpetrators. Wouldn't a more accurate word be predator? What I have read about the predator seems to fit what I saw happening in AA: the predator blaming the victim; the predator able to rationalize, " she wanted it; " the predator frequenting the place he knows he will find a ready pool of victims, the predator finding others like him who are willing to help him justify his behavior, and the really scary one, there isn't much hope that the predator will discontinue his behavior once he is exposed. Just a thought. What do you think? Re: quote >Hi Apple, folks > >I motice that in the BB & 12 & 12 the only reference to domestic abuse is >smashing the kitchen furniture - with all this hair shirt mea culpa, there is >no reference to wife- or child-battering or sexual abuse, which will >undoubtedly have featured in at least some cases. I do remember, however, > talking abt " Some things we had thought we should take with us to the >grave. " Adultery and swindles are mentioned, what could have been >talking abt? I rather suspect that physical and sexual abuse is the answer. > > > > > >> , I'm convinced that Bill and the early bunch were perpetrators >> themselves who did not want to face the music of their own actions. >> Boy, when I revealed my story to the group I'm sure there were perverts >> in the rooms who finally " saw " what those feelings are like. By the >> way, that's how they rehabilitate perpetrators (which is a virtual >> impossibility)... by creating a feeling of empathy within them. Most >> of them are totally clueless to the results of their actions... I had a >> shrink friend who got sucked into the stepper meld, but while we knew >> each other he told me that he refuses to do perpetrator groups because >> it sickens him... He did one in California and he said the guys were >> saying (about children mind you)... " she enjoyed it.. she was giggling " >> >> >> I'm planning a piece for the site which discusses how the steppers >> version of forgivness actually allows the incest/rape/abuse monster to >> thrive. No one is ever held accountable for their wrong actions, and >> the indivduals who were hurt are shamed for feeling anger or for having >> been in the wrong place at the wrong time (undoubtedly because they >> were ignoring God's will)... nice huh? >> >> Apple >> >> > Kayleigh: >> > >> > I remember making a statment similar to yours at a meeting probably 10 >> > years ago. I stated that I suspected that most of the women (I was >> > attending a women's meeting) had been abused. They looked at me as >> > though I had three heads. I think your observation on some people >> > making the connection is right on. I would venture that there is >> > repression, guilt and shame associated with surfacing and/or >> > resurfacing memories. >> > >> > One of my major difficulties with AA was exactly the point you made >> > regarding blame and fault-finding. If I am a child and forced into >> > incest with an adult, how can any of it be twisted into being my >> fault? >> > I was there, so it was my fault? This is a very fine example of >> > faulty logic. AA also encourages forgiveness and discourages anger. >> > Abused people experience rages. So an abused person should stuff away >> > all the rage at the injustice done and FORGIVE? More faulty logic. >> The >> > abused person needs to express that anger and learn how to deal with >> it >> > in a manner that is comfortable for them or they become like a >> pressure >> > cooker-ready to explode, or they can implode; turning the feelings >> > inward and becoming self-destructive. >> > >> > I am certain that the Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-Dum had no idea how to >> > address this issue in their Big Book of BS. Their generalizations >> have >> > damaged so many lives. >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >> Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >> http://clickhere./click/805 >> >> >> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> >> > >---------------------- >Pete Watts >Owner >PSY-PHAR Psychotherapy/Pharmacotherapy Outocomes Discussion >PERSONALITY-DISORDERS Support/Discussion > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/805 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 1999 Report Share Posted September 12, 1999 AA is a petri dish for predators. They are a deadly fungus spreading like mad. The worst part of all this, is that the women too are blinded by the Big Book. When one of them gets " hunted down " by a predator, the others simply sashay away from her with a smug " oh well... **I** never PUT MYSELF in that position " . Of course this will continue until she gets " caught " too. I think it took me so long to see the racket, because I don't think like a sex offender, but a sex offender always thinks like one, and I'm sure that the first thing this type of sociopath thinks of when a young newcomer starts spouting " I'm powerless... simply powerless " is " BINGO... let the games begin!!! " Nothing can happen to the predators within the AA belief system, because to challenge the predator is to challenge AA. A big task for people who rely on that social outlet. Apple > Hello Apple, > I sure do enjoy reading your comments, especially those concerning > vulnerable women falling victim to slimy men. Your insight is very valuable > to me. I myself am still in the angry stage and find it difficult to > express these feelings as they tend to come out of a place of hurt for me. > One comment: I noticed you calling these men perpetrators. Wouldn't a more > accurate word be predator? What I have read about the predator seems to fit > what I saw happening in AA: the predator blaming the victim; the predator > able to rationalize, " she wanted it; " the predator frequenting the place he > knows he will find a ready pool of victims, the predator finding others like > him who are willing to help him justify his behavior, and the really scary > one, there isn't much hope that the predator will discontinue his behavior > once he is exposed. Just a thought. What do you think? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 1999 Report Share Posted September 12, 1999 Apple, I am taking a two week course to get ready to TA a class (crazy rabbits at Portland State) during the day, but my evenings are fairly free. I would be delighted to meet you. Portland is a beautiful town, you will love it here. Have you been before? Bekerah and I live downtown just a few blocks from each other. I live on the Park Blocks, but she has the extraordinary view of the city at her place. Let us know what your plans are and what you would like to see--and we (notice how I speak for my friend who's out of town) will try to make it so. Re: quote > > >>Hi Apple, folks >> >>I motice that in the BB & 12 & 12 the only reference to domestic abuse is >>smashing the kitchen furniture - with all this hair shirt mea culpa, there >is >>no reference to wife- or child-battering or sexual abuse, which will >>undoubtedly have featured in at least some cases. I do remember, however, >> talking abt " Some things we had thought we should take with us to >the >>grave. " Adultery and swindles are mentioned, what could have been >>talking abt? I rather suspect that physical and sexual abuse is the answer. >> >> >> >> >> >>> , I'm convinced that Bill and the early bunch were perpetrators >>> themselves who did not want to face the music of their own actions. >>> Boy, when I revealed my story to the group I'm sure there were perverts >>> in the rooms who finally " saw " what those feelings are like. By the >>> way, that's how they rehabilitate perpetrators (which is a virtual >>> impossibility)... by creating a feeling of empathy within them. Most >>> of them are totally clueless to the results of their actions... I had a >>> shrink friend who got sucked into the stepper meld, but while we knew >>> each other he told me that he refuses to do perpetrator groups because >>> it sickens him... He did one in California and he said the guys were >>> saying (about children mind you)... " she enjoyed it.. she was giggling " >>> >>> >>> I'm planning a piece for the site which discusses how the steppers >>> version of forgivness actually allows the incest/rape/abuse monster to >>> thrive. No one is ever held accountable for their wrong actions, and >>> the indivduals who were hurt are shamed for feeling anger or for having >>> been in the wrong place at the wrong time (undoubtedly because they >>> were ignoring God's will)... nice huh? >>> >>> Apple >>> >>> > Kayleigh: >>> > >>> > I remember making a statment similar to yours at a meeting probably 10 >>> > years ago. I stated that I suspected that most of the women (I was >>> > attending a women's meeting) had been abused. They looked at me as >>> > though I had three heads. I think your observation on some people >>> > making the connection is right on. I would venture that there is >>> > repression, guilt and shame associated with surfacing and/or >>> > resurfacing memories. >>> > >>> > One of my major difficulties with AA was exactly the point you made >>> > regarding blame and fault-finding. If I am a child and forced into >>> > incest with an adult, how can any of it be twisted into being my >>> fault? >>> > I was there, so it was my fault? This is a very fine example of >>> > faulty logic. AA also encourages forgiveness and discourages anger. >>> > Abused people experience rages. So an abused person should stuff away >>> > all the rage at the injustice done and FORGIVE? More faulty logic. >>> The >>> > abused person needs to express that anger and learn how to deal with >>> it >>> > in a manner that is comfortable for them or they become like a >>> pressure >>> > cooker-ready to explode, or they can implode; turning the feelings >>> > inward and becoming self-destructive. >>> > >>> > I am certain that the Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-Dum had no idea how to >>> > address this issue in their Big Book of BS. Their generalizations >>> have >>> > damaged so many lives. >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >>> Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >>> http://clickhere./click/805 >>> >>> >>> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >>> - Simplifying group communications >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>---------------------- >>Pete Watts >>Owner >>PSY-PHAR Psychotherapy/Pharmacotherapy Outocomes Discussion >>PERSONALITY-DISORDERS Support/Discussion >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >>Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >>http://clickhere./click/805 >> >> >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/805 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 1999 Report Share Posted September 12, 1999 Apple, I am taking a two week course to get ready to TA a class (crazy rabbits at Portland State) during the day, but my evenings are fairly free. I would be delighted to meet you. Portland is a beautiful town, you will love it here. Have you been before? Bekerah and I live downtown just a few blocks from each other. I live on the Park Blocks, but she has the extraordinary view of the city at her place. Let us know what your plans are and what you would like to see--and we (notice how I speak for my friend who's out of town) will try to make it so. Re: quote > > >>Hi Apple, folks >> >>I motice that in the BB & 12 & 12 the only reference to domestic abuse is >>smashing the kitchen furniture - with all this hair shirt mea culpa, there >is >>no reference to wife- or child-battering or sexual abuse, which will >>undoubtedly have featured in at least some cases. I do remember, however, >> talking abt " Some things we had thought we should take with us to >the >>grave. " Adultery and swindles are mentioned, what could have been >>talking abt? I rather suspect that physical and sexual abuse is the answer. >> >> >> >> >> >>> , I'm convinced that Bill and the early bunch were perpetrators >>> themselves who did not want to face the music of their own actions. >>> Boy, when I revealed my story to the group I'm sure there were perverts >>> in the rooms who finally " saw " what those feelings are like. By the >>> way, that's how they rehabilitate perpetrators (which is a virtual >>> impossibility)... by creating a feeling of empathy within them. Most >>> of them are totally clueless to the results of their actions... I had a >>> shrink friend who got sucked into the stepper meld, but while we knew >>> each other he told me that he refuses to do perpetrator groups because >>> it sickens him... He did one in California and he said the guys were >>> saying (about children mind you)... " she enjoyed it.. she was giggling " >>> >>> >>> I'm planning a piece for the site which discusses how the steppers >>> version of forgivness actually allows the incest/rape/abuse monster to >>> thrive. No one is ever held accountable for their wrong actions, and >>> the indivduals who were hurt are shamed for feeling anger or for having >>> been in the wrong place at the wrong time (undoubtedly because they >>> were ignoring God's will)... nice huh? >>> >>> Apple >>> >>> > Kayleigh: >>> > >>> > I remember making a statment similar to yours at a meeting probably 10 >>> > years ago. I stated that I suspected that most of the women (I was >>> > attending a women's meeting) had been abused. They looked at me as >>> > though I had three heads. I think your observation on some people >>> > making the connection is right on. I would venture that there is >>> > repression, guilt and shame associated with surfacing and/or >>> > resurfacing memories. >>> > >>> > One of my major difficulties with AA was exactly the point you made >>> > regarding blame and fault-finding. If I am a child and forced into >>> > incest with an adult, how can any of it be twisted into being my >>> fault? >>> > I was there, so it was my fault? This is a very fine example of >>> > faulty logic. AA also encourages forgiveness and discourages anger. >>> > Abused people experience rages. So an abused person should stuff away >>> > all the rage at the injustice done and FORGIVE? More faulty logic. >>> The >>> > abused person needs to express that anger and learn how to deal with >>> it >>> > in a manner that is comfortable for them or they become like a >>> pressure >>> > cooker-ready to explode, or they can implode; turning the feelings >>> > inward and becoming self-destructive. >>> > >>> > I am certain that the Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-Dum had no idea how to >>> > address this issue in their Big Book of BS. Their generalizations >>> have >>> > damaged so many lives. >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >>> Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >>> http://clickhere./click/805 >>> >>> >>> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >>> - Simplifying group communications >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>---------------------- >>Pete Watts >>Owner >>PSY-PHAR Psychotherapy/Pharmacotherapy Outocomes Discussion >>PERSONALITY-DISORDERS Support/Discussion >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >>Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >>http://clickhere./click/805 >> >> >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/805 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 1999 Report Share Posted September 13, 1999 Yes, I've been there once. I had a friend who had a view of Mount Hood from her kitchen window. Beautiful! Well, I have to evaluate Portland as a possible place to live. So I'll be asking you questions about the Rose City (It is the rose city isn't it?) Apple appledt-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8015 > Apple, > I am taking a two week course to get ready to TA a class (crazy rabbits at > Portland State) during the day, but my evenings are fairly free. I would be > delighted to meet you. > Portland is a beautiful town, you will love it here. Have you been before? > Bekerah and I live downtown just a few blocks from each other. I live on > the Park Blocks, but she has the extraordinary view of the city at her > place. > Let us know what your plans are and what you would like to see--and we > (notice how I speak for my friend who's out of town) will try to make it so. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 1999 Report Share Posted September 13, 1999 Yes, I've been there once. I had a friend who had a view of Mount Hood from her kitchen window. Beautiful! Well, I have to evaluate Portland as a possible place to live. So I'll be asking you questions about the Rose City (It is the rose city isn't it?) Apple appledt-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8015 > Apple, > I am taking a two week course to get ready to TA a class (crazy rabbits at > Portland State) during the day, but my evenings are fairly free. I would be > delighted to meet you. > Portland is a beautiful town, you will love it here. Have you been before? > Bekerah and I live downtown just a few blocks from each other. I live on > the Park Blocks, but she has the extraordinary view of the city at her > place. > Let us know what your plans are and what you would like to see--and we > (notice how I speak for my friend who's out of town) will try to make it so. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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