Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 > I'll conclude my Sunday morning sermon now! > Reverend Rebekah > Church of the Divine Amen, Rev Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 > That's a great quote, Judith. It pretty much sums up my biggest problems with 12 step groups. What I see is a lot of people who are " sober " but still wounded and walking around with " But I am sober! " . Nothing but big, oozing wounds filled with guilt, rage, condemnation, abandonment, and unworthiness.> This describes me. I've been in therapy all summer dealing with a lot of painful emotions that stem from my experience with AA. > I guess someone could say that " the steps " were designed to fix all of those things that are wrong with the person after they are sober...but I don't beleieve they do. They DO NOT come from the place of acknowledging " we are powerful and wise beyond our imaginings " but exactly the opposite. They are based on puritanical religious philosophy that stresses how powerless we are and filled with a multitude of sinful thoughts and motivations. > My experience included a lot of half-baked therapy, a jumble of ideas from cognitive behavioral therapy and trauma therapy. It was extremely damaging for me to have old experiences unearthed and then be told, " well everyone's experienced that. It's nothing special. What could YOU have done to avoid the situation? Stop feeling sorry for yourself, stop having these old resentments and work on yourself. " > I don't think it is any wonder people go out and drink again if they are filled with this kind of stuff...coupled with unhealthy AA dogma or bs. I think there is a ton of stuff in AA that keeps people there and stuck in sickness. Where else can you go and be told you are accepted no matter how vile and lowly you are? Getting hugs and told you are loved? Given a list of things to do to win back Gods love and approval? You can walk around feeling superior to others who don't have all of the answers you do? The poor pitiful things!> ' subject line said it all: " But they're clean! " > Most of the stuff I see people getting back are outside things....jobs, money, a god out there.... A lot of the stuff " serenity " , " forgiveness " " avoiding anger " is just a lousy coverup for tackling the hard stuff. There are a ton of rage-aholics in AA. I used to be one. It helped me to be damded mad about a lot of shitty things that happened to me that weren't my fault. Once I got past the idea they were " resentments " and something to be avoided....I could actually start to deal with them. > Again, the half-baked therapy I received, mixed in with the 12 steps, resulted in me having very vivid images of doing violence to myself, and also in streams of vicious, violent language aimed at myself. That's what I've been working to overcome this summer. > I had to go elsewhere to do some major work in these areas. When you get these things back .... especially a sense of self-love and self-esteem....it made me start to take a hard look at the things I was seeing and hearing in meetings. Why was I spending so much time with a lot of people who were basically emotional cripples? Maybe that sounds mean, but at what point do I deserve to have a life around healthy people? I am not a therapist. > One song that has come to have a lot of meaning for me is " Father and Son " by Cat s. A couple lines in particular: If they were right, I'd agree But it's them they know, not me. From the moment I could talk I was ordered to listen Now there's a way, and I know That I have to go away Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 That's a great quote, Judith. It pretty much sums up my biggest problems with 12 step groups. What I see is a lot of people who are " sober " but still wounded and walking around with " But I am sober! " . Nothing but big, oozing wounds filled with guilt, rage, condemnation, abandonment, and unworthiness. I guess someone could say that " the steps " were designed to fix all of those things that are wrong with the person after they are sober...but I don't beleieve they do. They DO NOT come from the place of acknowledging " we are powerful and wise beyond our imaginings " but exactly the opposite. They are based on puritanical religious philosophy that stresses how powerless we are and filled with a multitude of sinful thoughts and motivations. I don't think it is any wonder people go out and drink again if they are filled with this kind of stuff...coupled with unhealthy AA dogma or bs. I think there is a ton of stuff in AA that keeps people there and stuck in sickness. Where else can you go and be told you are accepted no matter how vile and lowly you are? Getting hugs and told you are loved? Given a list of things to do to win back Gods love and approval? You can walk around feeling superior to others who don't have all of the answers you do? The poor pitiful things! Most of the stuff I see people getting back are outside things....jobs, money, a god out there.... A lot of the stuff " serenity " , " forgiveness " " avoiding anger " is just a lousy coverup for tackling the hard stuff. There are a ton of rage-aholics in AA. I used to be one. It helped me to be damded mad about a lot of shitty things that happened to me that weren't my fault. Once I got past the idea they were " resentments " and something to be avoided....I could actually start to deal with them. I have just seen so many people lose it....after years of being sober...doing all of the service work, gaining the respect of these AA peers...and eventually lose it because they have not addressed some of these basic things....still filled with self-contempt under the shallow trappings of rhetoric and program-speak. I had to go elsewhere to do some major work in these areas. When you get these things back....especially a sense of self-love and self-esteem....it made me start to take a hard look at the things I was seeing and hearing in meetings. Why was I spending so much time with a lot of people who were basically emotional cripples? Maybe that sounds mean, but at what point do I deserve to have a life around healthy people? I am not a therapist. There is so much bs in AA. It pisses me of that people are victimized again after they get sober. I think it may be helpful for some people for a very short time....but that spending very long there is very detrimental. I'll conclude my Sunday morning sermon now! Reverend Rebekah Church of the Divine Rebekah > > " It would seem that by my pointing out the drawbacks of the twelve-step >model, I am encouraging people to stop attending AA meetings. That is not >what I wish to do, and it is not the message I wish to convey. AA meetings >and other twelve-step programs have been instrumental in helping thousands >of people find abstinence and sobriety from their addictions. However, >sobriety is only part of the process. If we are to truly heal, we must >learn to acknowledge and work on our inner erroneous messages of guilt, >shame, rage, blame, condemnation, abandonment, and unworthiness. We learn >to accept and heal those messages and replace them with the truth of our >being--the truth that we are powerful and wise beyond our imaginings. " > >My favorite part of this quote is " However, sobriety is only part of the >process. " That essential bit of wisdom was missing from my treatment/AA >experience. My drinking & pot smoking was a *symptom* but of course, when I >said that, I was in denial. (It IS just a river in Egypt, after all > >I am doing a lot better now, I think; I am beginning to trust that my moods >can stabilize a little bit. It took me a long time to even be able to admit >to myself that it was not just me who made a mistake 15 years ago. It >really IS ok for me to say that in a public forum. > >OK. I don't like it when 12 step free is quiet! > >Judith > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/805 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 You know I've always thought that nne Gilliam was very politically correct about the whole thing, and I was very surprised that she gets a lot of hate mail. (I found this out when I had been corresponding with her). I wonder who gets more hate mail, nne or me... hmmm... I'm thinking that maybe she does, because the steppers know what they're going to get back when they write to me... Apple > ahem, er, uh....I think I've seen 2 posts since yesterday, so I thought I > would share a quote from " How AA Failed Me " by nne Gilliam. > > " It would seem that by my pointing out the drawbacks of the twelve-step > model, I am encouraging people to stop attending AA meetings. That is not > what I wish to do, and it is not the message I wish to convey. AA meetings > and other twelve-step programs have been instrumental in helping thousands > of people find abstinence and sobriety from their addictions. However, > sobriety is only part of the process. If we are to truly heal, we must > learn to acknowledge and work on our inner erroneous messages of guilt, > shame, rage, blame, condemnation, abandonment, and unworthiness. We learn > to accept and heal those messages and replace them with the truth of our > being--the truth that we are powerful and wise beyond our imaginings. " email.excite.com > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 ---------- >From: AppleDTP@... >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: quote >Date: Sun, Sep 5, 1999, 11:25 AM > >>I wonder who gets more hate mail, nne or me... >hmmm... I'm >thinking that maybe she does, because the steppers know what they're >going to get back when they write to me... >Apple > >Hi Apple, >I haven't read her book, but I will now. >Possibly, in your case, you have some very tragic horror stories that some >steppers can dismiss as > " extreme examples " and thereby rationalize as a grudge against AA. I also >agree with what you wrote. > >( I once wrote about 3 people who died after being clean for a considerable >time. I was just doing a little inventory of what I felt they might have >been lacking as far as them dealing with emotional pain and what they >didn't get from AA....some guy wrote me a nasty letter about how their >deaths were my fault...I must have done something and been responsible for >thier choices!...look for my part in it, for god's sake!!!!... Another >abusive nazi-stepper)If your angry...it must mean you are wrong > >nne seems very careful, and middle-of -the road. >Someone who can enrage because she writes in a very intelligent and >rational way. I think much of what you write is the same caliber....but not >so careful and more to the point! I happen to appreciate your biting >sarcasm and humor! She may come off as calm, and reasonable....but I would >rather have you in my corner any day. (from what I read so far) Rebekah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 Judith Stillwater wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7815 > > My favorite part of this quote is " However, sobriety is only part of the > process. " That essential bit of wisdom was missing from my treatment/AA > experience. My drinking & pot smoking was a *symptom* but of course, when I > said that, I was in denial. (It IS just a river in Egypt, after all > --------------------------------------- I appreciate your point, Judith, and I think it's ghastly that you were subjected to damaging step-based pseudotherapy when you needed real therapy. However, it is also a mistake to assume that problematic drinking *always* has a psychological-problem cause. I really think that for some people who have gotten in trouble with alcohol, the reason is simply that they loved the feeling they got from drinking, and irresponsibly indulged themselves without caring about the consequences. For such people, all that really IS necessary to do is to put limits on themselves (i.e. moderate) or stop drinking completely, nothing more. And for such people, it would be very oppressive to be in a counseling program where they were told that they must bare their souls and discover the REAL reason they drank the way they did. This was what I experienced in treatment; in such a mindset, it is totally irrelevant if the person stops drinking, because the " treatment " has not been completed until the " real " reason is found, and you're not allowed to say " the real reason is that I really liked the feeling it gave me, but I know it's childish and irresponsible to do whatever feels good whenever I want, so I've made a commitment to never be irresponsible that way again. " In fact, my private therapist was praising me for saying just that, while my " treatment " counselors were vilifying me. I can't really cotton to the Gilliam quote anyway. AA does _not_ produce a good record of abstinence, and neither does it have much therapeutic value for those who do have underlying issues. I would much prefer if she did not perpetuate the myth that AA is " instrumental " in keeping people " abstinent and sober " (and what exactly does she see as the difference between the two? - sounds like she may have swallowed a lot of stepper ideology in spite of her misgivings). BTW, why would steppers criticize you for saying " drinking was but a symptom " ? Isn't that straight from the Big Book? ~Rita ----------------------------------- > > " It would seem that by my pointing out the drawbacks of the twelve-step > model, I am encouraging people to stop attending AA meetings. That is not > what I wish to do, and it is not the message I wish to convey. AA meetings > and other twelve-step programs have been instrumental in helping thousands > of people find abstinence and sobriety from their addictions. However, > sobriety is only part of the process. If we are to truly heal, we must > learn to acknowledge and work on our inner erroneous messages of guilt, > shame, rage, blame, condemnation, abandonment, and unworthiness. We learn > to accept and heal those messages and replace them with the truth of our > being--the truth that we are powerful and wise beyond our imaginings. " > (nne Gilliam) > > Judith > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 Judith Stillwater wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7815 > > My favorite part of this quote is " However, sobriety is only part of the > process. " That essential bit of wisdom was missing from my treatment/AA > experience. My drinking & pot smoking was a *symptom* but of course, when I > said that, I was in denial. (It IS just a river in Egypt, after all > --------------------------------------- I appreciate your point, Judith, and I think it's ghastly that you were subjected to damaging step-based pseudotherapy when you needed real therapy. However, it is also a mistake to assume that problematic drinking *always* has a psychological-problem cause. I really think that for some people who have gotten in trouble with alcohol, the reason is simply that they loved the feeling they got from drinking, and irresponsibly indulged themselves without caring about the consequences. For such people, all that really IS necessary to do is to put limits on themselves (i.e. moderate) or stop drinking completely, nothing more. And for such people, it would be very oppressive to be in a counseling program where they were told that they must bare their souls and discover the REAL reason they drank the way they did. This was what I experienced in treatment; in such a mindset, it is totally irrelevant if the person stops drinking, because the " treatment " has not been completed until the " real " reason is found, and you're not allowed to say " the real reason is that I really liked the feeling it gave me, but I know it's childish and irresponsible to do whatever feels good whenever I want, so I've made a commitment to never be irresponsible that way again. " In fact, my private therapist was praising me for saying just that, while my " treatment " counselors were vilifying me. I can't really cotton to the Gilliam quote anyway. AA does _not_ produce a good record of abstinence, and neither does it have much therapeutic value for those who do have underlying issues. I would much prefer if she did not perpetuate the myth that AA is " instrumental " in keeping people " abstinent and sober " (and what exactly does she see as the difference between the two? - sounds like she may have swallowed a lot of stepper ideology in spite of her misgivings). BTW, why would steppers criticize you for saying " drinking was but a symptom " ? Isn't that straight from the Big Book? ~Rita ----------------------------------- > > " It would seem that by my pointing out the drawbacks of the twelve-step > model, I am encouraging people to stop attending AA meetings. That is not > what I wish to do, and it is not the message I wish to convey. AA meetings > and other twelve-step programs have been instrumental in helping thousands > of people find abstinence and sobriety from their addictions. However, > sobriety is only part of the process. If we are to truly heal, we must > learn to acknowledge and work on our inner erroneous messages of guilt, > shame, rage, blame, condemnation, abandonment, and unworthiness. We learn > to accept and heal those messages and replace them with the truth of our > being--the truth that we are powerful and wise beyond our imaginings. " > (nne Gilliam) > > Judith > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 Judith Stillwater wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7815 > > My favorite part of this quote is " However, sobriety is only part of the > process. " That essential bit of wisdom was missing from my treatment/AA > experience. My drinking & pot smoking was a *symptom* but of course, when I > said that, I was in denial. (It IS just a river in Egypt, after all > --------------------------------------- I appreciate your point, Judith, and I think it's ghastly that you were subjected to damaging step-based pseudotherapy when you needed real therapy. However, it is also a mistake to assume that problematic drinking *always* has a psychological-problem cause. I really think that for some people who have gotten in trouble with alcohol, the reason is simply that they loved the feeling they got from drinking, and irresponsibly indulged themselves without caring about the consequences. For such people, all that really IS necessary to do is to put limits on themselves (i.e. moderate) or stop drinking completely, nothing more. And for such people, it would be very oppressive to be in a counseling program where they were told that they must bare their souls and discover the REAL reason they drank the way they did. This was what I experienced in treatment; in such a mindset, it is totally irrelevant if the person stops drinking, because the " treatment " has not been completed until the " real " reason is found, and you're not allowed to say " the real reason is that I really liked the feeling it gave me, but I know it's childish and irresponsible to do whatever feels good whenever I want, so I've made a commitment to never be irresponsible that way again. " In fact, my private therapist was praising me for saying just that, while my " treatment " counselors were vilifying me. I can't really cotton to the Gilliam quote anyway. AA does _not_ produce a good record of abstinence, and neither does it have much therapeutic value for those who do have underlying issues. I would much prefer if she did not perpetuate the myth that AA is " instrumental " in keeping people " abstinent and sober " (and what exactly does she see as the difference between the two? - sounds like she may have swallowed a lot of stepper ideology in spite of her misgivings). BTW, why would steppers criticize you for saying " drinking was but a symptom " ? Isn't that straight from the Big Book? ~Rita ----------------------------------- > > " It would seem that by my pointing out the drawbacks of the twelve-step > model, I am encouraging people to stop attending AA meetings. That is not > what I wish to do, and it is not the message I wish to convey. AA meetings > and other twelve-step programs have been instrumental in helping thousands > of people find abstinence and sobriety from their addictions. However, > sobriety is only part of the process. If we are to truly heal, we must > learn to acknowledge and work on our inner erroneous messages of guilt, > shame, rage, blame, condemnation, abandonment, and unworthiness. We learn > to accept and heal those messages and replace them with the truth of our > being--the truth that we are powerful and wise beyond our imaginings. " > (nne Gilliam) > > Judith > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 The point being Rita, that it may be a good idea to ASK the problem drinker what the reasons for his/her drinking are! I knew what my reasons were when I arried at AA, but AA kept telling me Noooooo....!!!! Theeeeeeessssseeee are the reasons you drank... and I bought it. Five years later, I had to go back to the same issues which I had identified and put on a back shelf five years ago, to look for those answers. The medical professional who wrote me last week said very clearly: It takes a lot of knowledge and work to make an accurate diagnosis, and it involves taking patient history. Something many treatment programs simply do not do. apple > --------------------------------------- > > I appreciate your point, Judith, and I think it's ghastly that you > were subjected to damaging step-based pseudotherapy when you needed > real therapy. However, it is also a mistake to assume that problematic > drinking *always* has a psychological-problem cause. I really think > that for some people who have gotten in trouble with alcohol, the > reason is simply that they loved the feeling they got from drinking, > and irresponsibly indulged themselves without caring about the > consequences. For such people, all that really IS necessary to do is > to put limits on themselves (i.e. moderate) or stop drinking > completely, nothing more. And for such people, it would be very > oppressive to be in a counseling program where they were told that they > must bare their souls and discover the REAL reason they drank the way > they did. This was what I experienced in treatment; in such a mindset, > it is totally irrelevant if the person stops drinking, because the > " treatment " has not been completed until the " real " reason is found, > and you're not allowed to say " the real reason is that I really liked > the feeling it gave me, but I know it's childish and irresponsible to > do whatever feels good whenever I want, so I've made a commitment to > never be irresponsible that way again. " In fact, my private therapist > was praising me for saying just that, while my " treatment " counselors > were vilifying me. > > I can't really cotton to the Gilliam quote anyway. AA does _not_ > produce a good record of abstinence, and neither does it have much > therapeutic value for those who do have underlying issues. I would > much prefer if she did not perpetuate the myth that AA is > " instrumental " in keeping people " abstinent and sober " (and what > exactly does she see as the difference between the two? - sounds like > she may have swallowed a lot of stepper ideology in spite of her > misgivings). > > BTW, why would steppers criticize you for saying " drinking was but > a symptom " ? Isn't that straight from the Big Book? > > ~Rita > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 The point being Rita, that it may be a good idea to ASK the problem drinker what the reasons for his/her drinking are! I knew what my reasons were when I arried at AA, but AA kept telling me Noooooo....!!!! Theeeeeeessssseeee are the reasons you drank... and I bought it. Five years later, I had to go back to the same issues which I had identified and put on a back shelf five years ago, to look for those answers. The medical professional who wrote me last week said very clearly: It takes a lot of knowledge and work to make an accurate diagnosis, and it involves taking patient history. Something many treatment programs simply do not do. apple > --------------------------------------- > > I appreciate your point, Judith, and I think it's ghastly that you > were subjected to damaging step-based pseudotherapy when you needed > real therapy. However, it is also a mistake to assume that problematic > drinking *always* has a psychological-problem cause. I really think > that for some people who have gotten in trouble with alcohol, the > reason is simply that they loved the feeling they got from drinking, > and irresponsibly indulged themselves without caring about the > consequences. For such people, all that really IS necessary to do is > to put limits on themselves (i.e. moderate) or stop drinking > completely, nothing more. And for such people, it would be very > oppressive to be in a counseling program where they were told that they > must bare their souls and discover the REAL reason they drank the way > they did. This was what I experienced in treatment; in such a mindset, > it is totally irrelevant if the person stops drinking, because the > " treatment " has not been completed until the " real " reason is found, > and you're not allowed to say " the real reason is that I really liked > the feeling it gave me, but I know it's childish and irresponsible to > do whatever feels good whenever I want, so I've made a commitment to > never be irresponsible that way again. " In fact, my private therapist > was praising me for saying just that, while my " treatment " counselors > were vilifying me. > > I can't really cotton to the Gilliam quote anyway. AA does _not_ > produce a good record of abstinence, and neither does it have much > therapeutic value for those who do have underlying issues. I would > much prefer if she did not perpetuate the myth that AA is > " instrumental " in keeping people " abstinent and sober " (and what > exactly does she see as the difference between the two? - sounds like > she may have swallowed a lot of stepper ideology in spite of her > misgivings). > > BTW, why would steppers criticize you for saying " drinking was but > a symptom " ? Isn't that straight from the Big Book? > > ~Rita > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 At 05:10 PM 9/6/99 -0700, you wrote: >Judith Stillwater wrote: >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7815 > > >> >> My favorite part of this quote is " However, sobriety is only part of >the >> process. " That essential bit of wisdom was missing from my >treatment/AA >> experience. My drinking & pot smoking was a *symptom* but of course, >when I >> said that, I was in denial. (It IS just a river in Egypt, after all > > BTW, why would steppers criticize you for saying " drinking was but >a symptom " ? Isn't that straight from the Big Book? > >~Rita Actually that's a fairly well-known big book quote where I went to AA meetings, but if it's not heard in meetings in other places or NA, then it doesn't surprise me. I think there's a lot of people who do a whole lot of talking about how important it is to read the big book, but from speaking with many of them, they may have read through it once (I get the impression many of them aren't used to reading books), but can't remember most of what it says. After a couple of years there were several slogans, quotes and sayings that upon hearing them I could say what page of the big book it was on. I learned this in self-defense after hearing so many nice-sounding quotes ( " I judged myself by my intentions, while others judged me on my actions " ) which rang a bell - I had read it in the big book (p. 447 or 448 or so, 3rd edition, in the story " Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict " ). I was amazed at how everyone from Bill W. onward would just say quotes with no reference to where they came from, as if they were original. I heard " drinking was only a symptom " wne I was early in the program, and it hooked me because it rang true for me. But what it means in AA is that drinking is just one symptom of the disease of alcoholism (the others are selfishness, self-centeredness, anger, self-pity, any other 'bad' emotion you can think of), and that the only way to put this disease in remission was to take the 12 steps of AA on a continuous basis. I strongly suspect my drinking was a symptom of the emotional abuse and neglect I received in childhood. It took me years to see that this stuff had no place in 12-step programs - the only AA reason I would have to look at my childhood would be to see where I hurt others. Hope you enjoyed that, I felt a need to ramble a little... ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 At 05:10 PM 9/6/99 -0700, you wrote: >Judith Stillwater wrote: >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7815 > > >> >> My favorite part of this quote is " However, sobriety is only part of >the >> process. " That essential bit of wisdom was missing from my >treatment/AA >> experience. My drinking & pot smoking was a *symptom* but of course, >when I >> said that, I was in denial. (It IS just a river in Egypt, after all > > BTW, why would steppers criticize you for saying " drinking was but >a symptom " ? Isn't that straight from the Big Book? > >~Rita Actually that's a fairly well-known big book quote where I went to AA meetings, but if it's not heard in meetings in other places or NA, then it doesn't surprise me. I think there's a lot of people who do a whole lot of talking about how important it is to read the big book, but from speaking with many of them, they may have read through it once (I get the impression many of them aren't used to reading books), but can't remember most of what it says. After a couple of years there were several slogans, quotes and sayings that upon hearing them I could say what page of the big book it was on. I learned this in self-defense after hearing so many nice-sounding quotes ( " I judged myself by my intentions, while others judged me on my actions " ) which rang a bell - I had read it in the big book (p. 447 or 448 or so, 3rd edition, in the story " Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict " ). I was amazed at how everyone from Bill W. onward would just say quotes with no reference to where they came from, as if they were original. I heard " drinking was only a symptom " wne I was early in the program, and it hooked me because it rang true for me. But what it means in AA is that drinking is just one symptom of the disease of alcoholism (the others are selfishness, self-centeredness, anger, self-pity, any other 'bad' emotion you can think of), and that the only way to put this disease in remission was to take the 12 steps of AA on a continuous basis. I strongly suspect my drinking was a symptom of the emotional abuse and neglect I received in childhood. It took me years to see that this stuff had no place in 12-step programs - the only AA reason I would have to look at my childhood would be to see where I hurt others. Hope you enjoyed that, I felt a need to ramble a little... ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 1999 Report Share Posted September 7, 1999 Hi Ben: You are right... my drinking was a symptom of emotional abuse and gender issues. I thought that mom and men treated me the way they did because somehow I deserved it. The funny thing is, that if the " causes " for our drinking do not fall into the " selfishness " category, they are almost immediately cancelled out with " we're here to talk about alcohol! " A convenient way to silence anyone who dares talk about abuse issues. Why silence them? Well, it would fire up memories for the people who are trying to stuff the pain of their own abuse. And we wouldn't want that... Or worse yet, it may cause abusive jerks in the rooms to feel guilt for abuse they may have inflicted on others during their drinking. And we really really wouldn't want THAT would we??!! Apple > I strongly suspect my drinking was a symptom of the emotional abuse and > neglect I received in childhood. It took me years to see that this stuff > had no place in 12-step programs - the only AA reason I would have to look > at my childhood would be to see where I hurt others. > > Hope you enjoyed that, I felt a need to ramble a little... > > ----- > http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 1999 Report Share Posted September 7, 1999 Hi Ben: You are right... my drinking was a symptom of emotional abuse and gender issues. I thought that mom and men treated me the way they did because somehow I deserved it. The funny thing is, that if the " causes " for our drinking do not fall into the " selfishness " category, they are almost immediately cancelled out with " we're here to talk about alcohol! " A convenient way to silence anyone who dares talk about abuse issues. Why silence them? Well, it would fire up memories for the people who are trying to stuff the pain of their own abuse. And we wouldn't want that... Or worse yet, it may cause abusive jerks in the rooms to feel guilt for abuse they may have inflicted on others during their drinking. And we really really wouldn't want THAT would we??!! Apple > I strongly suspect my drinking was a symptom of the emotional abuse and > neglect I received in childhood. It took me years to see that this stuff > had no place in 12-step programs - the only AA reason I would have to look > at my childhood would be to see where I hurt others. > > Hope you enjoyed that, I felt a need to ramble a little... > > ----- > http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 1999 Report Share Posted September 7, 1999 Hi Ben: You are right... my drinking was a symptom of emotional abuse and gender issues. I thought that mom and men treated me the way they did because somehow I deserved it. The funny thing is, that if the " causes " for our drinking do not fall into the " selfishness " category, they are almost immediately cancelled out with " we're here to talk about alcohol! " A convenient way to silence anyone who dares talk about abuse issues. Why silence them? Well, it would fire up memories for the people who are trying to stuff the pain of their own abuse. And we wouldn't want that... Or worse yet, it may cause abusive jerks in the rooms to feel guilt for abuse they may have inflicted on others during their drinking. And we really really wouldn't want THAT would we??!! Apple > I strongly suspect my drinking was a symptom of the emotional abuse and > neglect I received in childhood. It took me years to see that this stuff > had no place in 12-step programs - the only AA reason I would have to look > at my childhood would be to see where I hurt others. > > Hope you enjoyed that, I felt a need to ramble a little... > > ----- > http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 1999 Report Share Posted September 7, 1999 AppleDTP@... wrote: The funny thing is, that if the > " causes " for our drinking do not fall into the " selfishness " category, > they are almost immediately cancelled out with " we're here to talk > about alcohol! " A convenient way to silence anyone who dares talk > about abuse issues. Hi Apple, This very same phenomenon used to irritate me no end. Root causes and much needed therapeutic venting are dismissed out of hand while endless AA commercials are heartily encouraged. " I'm a grateful recovering alcoholic, and I owe my life to the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,\ BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH. I was lucky to find a men's meeting when I was new that allowed me to vent for a year and a half without the usual accompanying put-downs and condescension. How's that for a miracle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 1999 Report Share Posted September 7, 1999 AppleDTP@... wrote: The funny thing is, that if the > " causes " for our drinking do not fall into the " selfishness " category, > they are almost immediately cancelled out with " we're here to talk > about alcohol! " A convenient way to silence anyone who dares talk > about abuse issues. Hi Apple, This very same phenomenon used to irritate me no end. Root causes and much needed therapeutic venting are dismissed out of hand while endless AA commercials are heartily encouraged. " I'm a grateful recovering alcoholic, and I owe my life to the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,\ BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH. I was lucky to find a men's meeting when I was new that allowed me to vent for a year and a half without the usual accompanying put-downs and condescension. How's that for a miracle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 1999 Report Share Posted September 7, 1999 It's amazing to me how many people who drink report having been abused as children. Some make the connection, some don't. The ones who don't blame themselves for the abuse, plus they blame themselves for every hurt done to everyone else they've ever come into contact with. They seem to have caused everything that ever happened. Isn't it nice to be so powerful? Wouldn't most people call it arrogance? kayleigh-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7849 > Hi Ben: You are right... my drinking was a symptom of emotional abuse > and gender issues. I thought that mom and men treated me the way they > did because somehow I deserved it. The funny thing is, that if the > " causes " for our drinking do not fall into the " selfishness " category, > they are almost immediately cancelled out with " we're here to talk > about alcohol! " A convenient way to silence anyone who dares talk > about abuse issues. > > Why silence them? Well, it would fire up memories for the people who > are trying to stuff the pain of their own abuse. And we wouldn't want > that... > Or worse yet, it may cause abusive jerks in the rooms to feel guilt for > abuse they may have inflicted on others during their drinking. And we > really really wouldn't want THAT would we??!! > > Apple > > > > I strongly suspect my drinking was a symptom of the emotional > abuse and > > neglect I received in childhood. It took me years to see that this > stuff > > had no place in 12-step programs - the only AA reason I would have to > look > > at my childhood would be to see where I hurt others. > > > > Hope you enjoyed that, I felt a need to ramble a little... > > > > ----- > > http://listen.to/benbradley > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 1999 Report Share Posted September 7, 1999 It's amazing to me how many people who drink report having been abused as children. Some make the connection, some don't. The ones who don't blame themselves for the abuse, plus they blame themselves for every hurt done to everyone else they've ever come into contact with. They seem to have caused everything that ever happened. Isn't it nice to be so powerful? Wouldn't most people call it arrogance? kayleigh-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7849 > Hi Ben: You are right... my drinking was a symptom of emotional abuse > and gender issues. I thought that mom and men treated me the way they > did because somehow I deserved it. The funny thing is, that if the > " causes " for our drinking do not fall into the " selfishness " category, > they are almost immediately cancelled out with " we're here to talk > about alcohol! " A convenient way to silence anyone who dares talk > about abuse issues. > > Why silence them? Well, it would fire up memories for the people who > are trying to stuff the pain of their own abuse. And we wouldn't want > that... > Or worse yet, it may cause abusive jerks in the rooms to feel guilt for > abuse they may have inflicted on others during their drinking. And we > really really wouldn't want THAT would we??!! > > Apple > > > > I strongly suspect my drinking was a symptom of the emotional > abuse and > > neglect I received in childhood. It took me years to see that this > stuff > > had no place in 12-step programs - the only AA reason I would have to > look > > at my childhood would be to see where I hurt others. > > > > Hope you enjoyed that, I felt a need to ramble a little... > > > > ----- > > http://listen.to/benbradley > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 1999 Report Share Posted September 7, 1999 > I really think that for some people who have gotten in trouble with alcohol, the reason is simply that they loved the feeling they got from drinking, and irresponsibly indulged themselves without caring about the consequences. For such people, all that really IS necessary to do is to put limits on themselves (i.e. moderate) or stop drinking completely, nothing more. And for such people, it would be very oppressive to be in a counseling program where they were told that they must bare their souls and discover the REAL reason they drank the way they did. This was what I experienced in treatment; in such a mindset, it is totally irrelevant if the person stops drinking, because the " treatment " has not been completed until the " real " reason is found, and you're not allowed to say " the real reason is that I really liked the feeling it gave me, but I know it's childish and irresponsible to do whatever feels good whenever I want, so I've made a commitment to never be irresponsible that way again. " In fact, my private therapist was praising me for saying just that, while my " treatment " counselors were vilifying me.> I surely did not intend to imply that everyone who drinks has an underlying psychological reason for doing so, which must be discovered and dealt with before drinking can stop. Painting with a broad brush is the problem in my opinion. > I can't really cotton to the Gilliam quote anyway. AA does _not_ produce a good record of abstinence, and neither does it have much therapeutic value for those who do have underlying issues. I would much prefer if she did not perpetuate the myth that AA is " instrumental " in keeping people " abstinent and sober " (and what exactly does she see as the difference between the two? - sounds like she may have swallowed a lot of stepper ideology in spite of her misgivings).> I believe her book (which I have not read, only looked through) is about her own experience and doesn't focus on research or findings re: AA's effectiveness. I'm not really interested in defending her book or why she wrote it in the terms she chose. Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 1999 Report Share Posted September 8, 1999 RITA!!!!! I feel guilty about responding in such a terse fashion to what you wrote! But I won't apologize because I think that would only make it worse. So I'll just say this: in all seriousness, you are a role model to me in the way you've taken action with your company's employee assistance program. I've found a local clinic that provides AA alternatives and I'm working my way into the good graces of the guy who runs that clinic (Bob Muscala), so that I may also take part in " the good fight " to provide choice in the field of addiction/ dependency counseling. Bob M. made an interesting comment the last time I attended a SMART meeting. He said, in any other mental health field, it is hoped that the client will have a healthy individual outcome. But in addiction/ dependency counseling, the counselor is more interested in whether the client is " working the program. " Counselor: How are you doing today? Client: I feel like crap. Counselor: But are you working your program? Judith, manifesting some goofy Minnesota Catholic set of hang-ups. ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 1999 Report Share Posted September 8, 1999 wrose-@... wrote: Kayleigh: I remember making a statment similar to yours at a meeting probably 10 years ago. I stated that I suspected that most of the women (I was attending a women's meeting) had been abused. They looked at me as though I had three heads. I think your observation on some people making the connection is right on. I would venture that there is repression, guilt and shame associated with surfacing and/or resurfacing memories. One of my major difficulties with AA was exactly the point you made regarding blame and fault-finding. If I am a child and forced into incest with an adult, how can any of it be twisted into being my fault? I was there, so it was my fault? This is a very fine example of faulty logic. AA also encourages forgiveness and discourages anger. Abused people experience rages. So an abused person should stuff away all the rage at the injustice done and FORGIVE? More faulty logic. The abused person needs to express that anger and learn how to deal with it in a manner that is comfortable for them or they become like a pressure cooker-ready to explode, or they can implode; turning the feelings inward and becoming self-destructive. I am certain that the Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-Dum had no idea how to address this issue in their Big Book of BS. Their generalizations have damaged so many lives. original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7873 > It's amazing to me how many people who drink report having been abused > as children. Some make the connection, some don't. The ones who don't > blame themselves for the abuse, plus they blame themselves for every > hurt done to everyone else they've ever come into contact with. > > They seem to have caused everything that ever happened. Isn't it nice > to be so powerful? Wouldn't most people call it arrogance? > > kayleigh-@... wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7849 > > Hi Ben: You are right... my drinking was a symptom of emotional abuse > > and gender issues. I thought that mom and men treated me the way they > > did because somehow I deserved it. The funny thing is, that if the > > " causes " for our drinking do not fall into the " selfishness " category, > > they are almost immediately cancelled out with " we're here to talk > > about alcohol! " A convenient way to silence anyone who dares talk > > about abuse issues. > > > > Why silence them? Well, it would fire up memories for the people who > > are trying to stuff the pain of their own abuse. And we wouldn't want > > that... > > Or worse yet, it may cause abusive jerks in the rooms to feel guilt > for > > abuse they may have inflicted on others during their drinking. And we > > really really wouldn't want THAT would we??!! > > > > Apple > > > > > > > I strongly suspect my drinking was a symptom of the emotional > > abuse and > > > neglect I received in childhood. It took me years to see that this > > stuff > > > had no place in 12-step programs - the only AA reason I would have > to > > look > > > at my childhood would be to see where I hurt others. > > > > > > Hope you enjoyed that, I felt a need to ramble a little... > > > > > > ----- > > > http://listen.to/benbradley > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 1999 Report Share Posted September 8, 1999 wrose-@... wrote: Kayleigh: I remember making a statment similar to yours at a meeting probably 10 years ago. I stated that I suspected that most of the women (I was attending a women's meeting) had been abused. They looked at me as though I had three heads. I think your observation on some people making the connection is right on. I would venture that there is repression, guilt and shame associated with surfacing and/or resurfacing memories. One of my major difficulties with AA was exactly the point you made regarding blame and fault-finding. If I am a child and forced into incest with an adult, how can any of it be twisted into being my fault? I was there, so it was my fault? This is a very fine example of faulty logic. AA also encourages forgiveness and discourages anger. Abused people experience rages. So an abused person should stuff away all the rage at the injustice done and FORGIVE? More faulty logic. The abused person needs to express that anger and learn how to deal with it in a manner that is comfortable for them or they become like a pressure cooker-ready to explode, or they can implode; turning the feelings inward and becoming self-destructive. I am certain that the Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-Dum had no idea how to address this issue in their Big Book of BS. Their generalizations have damaged so many lives. original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7873 > It's amazing to me how many people who drink report having been abused > as children. Some make the connection, some don't. The ones who don't > blame themselves for the abuse, plus they blame themselves for every > hurt done to everyone else they've ever come into contact with. > > They seem to have caused everything that ever happened. Isn't it nice > to be so powerful? Wouldn't most people call it arrogance? > > kayleigh-@... wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7849 > > Hi Ben: You are right... my drinking was a symptom of emotional abuse > > and gender issues. I thought that mom and men treated me the way they > > did because somehow I deserved it. The funny thing is, that if the > > " causes " for our drinking do not fall into the " selfishness " category, > > they are almost immediately cancelled out with " we're here to talk > > about alcohol! " A convenient way to silence anyone who dares talk > > about abuse issues. > > > > Why silence them? Well, it would fire up memories for the people who > > are trying to stuff the pain of their own abuse. And we wouldn't want > > that... > > Or worse yet, it may cause abusive jerks in the rooms to feel guilt > for > > abuse they may have inflicted on others during their drinking. And we > > really really wouldn't want THAT would we??!! > > > > Apple > > > > > > > I strongly suspect my drinking was a symptom of the emotional > > abuse and > > > neglect I received in childhood. It took me years to see that this > > stuff > > > had no place in 12-step programs - the only AA reason I would have > to > > look > > > at my childhood would be to see where I hurt others. > > > > > > Hope you enjoyed that, I felt a need to ramble a little... > > > > > > ----- > > > http://listen.to/benbradley > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 1999 Report Share Posted September 8, 1999 > It's amazing to me how many people who drink report having been abused > as children. Some make the connection, some don't. The ones who don't > blame themselves for the abuse, plus they blame themselves for every > hurt done to everyone else they've ever come into contact with. > > They seem to have caused everything that ever happened. Isn't it nice > to be so powerful? Wouldn't most people call it arrogance? > I guess some people might.. nevertheless it took years for me to get out of that mind-set. Where does it start? In the family... " I smacked you because you were bad " . The one thought along the same vein, that really did a lot of damage to me was my projection about rejection by boyfriends " I dumped you because you're not good enough " . Boy, if I was rejected by a guy, I would internalize it... I always dated beneath me in intelligence and experience. I just always walked around with this huge lump of inadequacy. Thank god for therapy. As far as parents are concerned, IMHO, it's important for people to go through a process called " breaking the fantasy bond with the parents " . Namely to start seeing their parents as flawed humans (this does not negate the parent's love for the child, or good intentions of course). Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 1999 Report Share Posted September 8, 1999 > It's amazing to me how many people who drink report having been abused > as children. Some make the connection, some don't. The ones who don't > blame themselves for the abuse, plus they blame themselves for every > hurt done to everyone else they've ever come into contact with. > > They seem to have caused everything that ever happened. Isn't it nice > to be so powerful? Wouldn't most people call it arrogance? > I guess some people might.. nevertheless it took years for me to get out of that mind-set. Where does it start? In the family... " I smacked you because you were bad " . The one thought along the same vein, that really did a lot of damage to me was my projection about rejection by boyfriends " I dumped you because you're not good enough " . Boy, if I was rejected by a guy, I would internalize it... I always dated beneath me in intelligence and experience. I just always walked around with this huge lump of inadequacy. Thank god for therapy. As far as parents are concerned, IMHO, it's important for people to go through a process called " breaking the fantasy bond with the parents " . Namely to start seeing their parents as flawed humans (this does not negate the parent's love for the child, or good intentions of course). Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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