Oh my!

[Guest guest]

Yesterday I had a Black Russia.....oh my! It was soooooo

deeeeelicious! The first *drink* that I have had in several

years....oh my!

Ellen

(NSR on Dofetilide)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/29/2002 3:45:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,

Failteg@... writes:

<< Yesterday I had a Black Russia.....oh my! It was soooooo

deeeeelicious! The first *drink* that I have had in several

years....oh my! >>

This may seem like a stupid question, but it comes from one who is not and

never has been a drinker of alcohol. Isn't a Black Russian an alcoholic

drink, made with chocolate containing caffeine? If so, I can't imagine that

it's a drink with which one would want to wash down one's Dofetilide,

Tambocor, Amiodarone, or Rhythmol! :-) If the drink does indeed include

both alcohol and caffeine, it would seem to be kind of a double whammy for

afibbers since either substance alone can be an afib trigger. I've given up

coffee, a drink which I think is extremely delicious, but I have no

experience with alcohol.

If the Black Russian is alcoholic, perhaps it will fit into a new category.

I have read on other boards of afibbers who think that red or brown colored

alcohol such as red wine or whisky will trigger their afib, but " clear "

drinks such as white wine or vodka will not trigger afib. (My brother who

has been in permanent afib for twenty to thirty years thought this was quite

humorous when I told him about it. His drink of choice was vodka, and he

firmly believes that " clear " drink caused his permanent afib. His belief is

that alcohol is alcohol, whether it's clear, red, brown, or purple.) I

haven't read about " black " alcoholic drinks, so they may be in a separate

category. :-) Anyway, I'll stick with water, but even that can put a vagal

afibber into an episode if one drinks it too cold or too fast. We can't win,

I guess.

in sinus in Seattle (Day 192)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/29/2002 3:45:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,

Failteg@... writes:

<< Yesterday I had a Black Russia.....oh my! It was soooooo

deeeeelicious! The first *drink* that I have had in several

years....oh my! >>

This may seem like a stupid question, but it comes from one who is not and

never has been a drinker of alcohol. Isn't a Black Russian an alcoholic

drink, made with chocolate containing caffeine? If so, I can't imagine that

it's a drink with which one would want to wash down one's Dofetilide,

Tambocor, Amiodarone, or Rhythmol! :-) If the drink does indeed include

both alcohol and caffeine, it would seem to be kind of a double whammy for

afibbers since either substance alone can be an afib trigger. I've given up

coffee, a drink which I think is extremely delicious, but I have no

experience with alcohol.

If the Black Russian is alcoholic, perhaps it will fit into a new category.

I have read on other boards of afibbers who think that red or brown colored

alcohol such as red wine or whisky will trigger their afib, but " clear "

drinks such as white wine or vodka will not trigger afib. (My brother who

has been in permanent afib for twenty to thirty years thought this was quite

humorous when I told him about it. His drink of choice was vodka, and he

firmly believes that " clear " drink caused his permanent afib. His belief is

that alcohol is alcohol, whether it's clear, red, brown, or purple.) I

haven't read about " black " alcoholic drinks, so they may be in a separate

category. :-) Anyway, I'll stick with water, but even that can put a vagal

afibber into an episode if one drinks it too cold or too fast. We can't win,

I guess.

in sinus in Seattle (Day 192)

[Guest guest]

<I have read on other boards of afibbers who think that red or brown colored

alcohol such as red wine or whisky will trigger their afib, but " clear "

drinks such as white wine or vodka will not trigger afib.>>

Hi , whilst I agree alcohol is alcohol regardless of the colour of the

liquid, I can see an argument that some wine (especially red) should be

treated differently.

foods/liquids containing tyramine are also known to trigger AF in some

people. Tyramine is another chemical that increases the release of

norepinephrine - i.e. the adrenegic side of the ANS.

Just to make it a hard one to spot you can also find tyramine in dark

chocolate and some cheeses so separating it from a dairy/caffeine/alcohol

trigger may not be obvious on the first encounter.

I'm lucky enough not to be triggered by either alcohol caffeine or tyramine.

Since my AF is predominantly vagal I can see why (but I know some vagal folk

still have a problem with these foods - though I've never been able to come

up with a good reason for this).

There's also an argument that some beers might cause people trouble not

because of the alcohol but because of all the other junk to be found in

them.

I agree though that if alcohol is a trigger then I suspect it's a trigger

regardless of how it arrives in your system.

All the best

--

D (33, Leeds, UK)

Paroxysmal AF for 29 hours every 16 days

[Guest guest]

<I have read on other boards of afibbers who think that red or brown colored

alcohol such as red wine or whisky will trigger their afib, but " clear "

drinks such as white wine or vodka will not trigger afib.>>

Hi , whilst I agree alcohol is alcohol regardless of the colour of the

liquid, I can see an argument that some wine (especially red) should be

treated differently.

foods/liquids containing tyramine are also known to trigger AF in some

people. Tyramine is another chemical that increases the release of

norepinephrine - i.e. the adrenegic side of the ANS.

Just to make it a hard one to spot you can also find tyramine in dark

chocolate and some cheeses so separating it from a dairy/caffeine/alcohol

trigger may not be obvious on the first encounter.

I'm lucky enough not to be triggered by either alcohol caffeine or tyramine.

Since my AF is predominantly vagal I can see why (but I know some vagal folk

still have a problem with these foods - though I've never been able to come

up with a good reason for this).

There's also an argument that some beers might cause people trouble not

because of the alcohol but because of all the other junk to be found in

them.

I agree though that if alcohol is a trigger then I suspect it's a trigger

regardless of how it arrives in your system.

All the best

--

D (33, Leeds, UK)

Paroxysmal AF for 29 hours every 16 days

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/30/2002 4:10:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,

james@... writes:

<< I'm lucky enough not to be triggered by either alcohol caffeine or

tyramine.

Since my AF is predominantly vagal I can see why (but I know some vagal folk

still have a problem with these foods - though I've never been able to come

up with a good reason for this).

>>

Hi, ,

I think my E.P. would answer your question by saying that anything that

causes vasovagal stimulation can trigger afib. He thinks that in my case

giving up dairy improved my afib because milk and cheese caused vasovagal

stimulation for me. He's never commented on the opioid theory, but he thinks

there is indeed a connection between my giving up dairy and my long sinus

run. Of course, because we are all different, one person's vasovagal

stimulus might be another person's innocuous substance.

My brother, who has been in permanent afib for at least twenty to thirty

years, thinks that the factor of denial enters strongly into identifying afib

triggers, especially alcohol and other addictive substances. He said that

when he was drinking heavily in the days when his afib started and he was

still paroxysmal, he actually believed that having a few drinks smoothed out

his heart and solved the problem. Of course, that belief encouraged him to

drink even more. Now he hasn't drunk alcohol for twenty years, but the

damage is done. He says he was in denial and only thought that the alcohol

helped because it made him less aware of the afib symptoms. The " mammal in

the chest " was anesthetized by a few drinks. He wanted to keep drinking, so

he denied and rationalized the effects of the alcohol. I've mentioned this

before here and bring it up again because of concern about those 500 or so

members out there who are just silently reading this board and absorbing

information. There are probably many who are new to afib and may not be aware

of facts that we experienced afibbers take for granted, especially the

problems posed for afibbers by alcohol and caffeine.

I think the same denial process enters into decisions about eating or

drinking other substances we like but which we suspect of triggering afib. I

know that in the early days of my dairy deprivation, I was always looking for

reasons to justify eating cheese and drinking milk or ways to do so with

impunity. Rationalizing something we want to do just comes naturally to us

humans, I think, and it makes it doubly difficult to stay away from

substances that are harmful to us individually. If we deny that the

substances are indeed harmful, the eating or drinking is easier and more

pleasant.

in sinus in Seattle (Day 192)

[Guest guest]

<<I think the same denial process enters into decisions about eating or

drinking other substances we like but which we suspect of triggering afib.

I know that in the early days of my dairy deprivation, I was always looking

for reasons to justify eating cheese and drinking milk or ways to do so with

impunity. Rationalizing something we want to do just comes naturally to us

humans, I think, and it makes it doubly difficult to stay away from

substances that are harmful to us individually. If we deny that the

substances are indeed harmful, the eating or drinking is easier and more

pleasant.>>

Hi , I do take your point seriously but since I gave up both alcohol and

caffeine completely for almost a year with absolutely no change in my AF and

have introduced them (and even overdosed on them!) without any change in my

AF I'm confident that these are not trigger foods for me. (and since they

both raise my heart rate I can see why they aren't a problem).

I still do not drink a lot of alcohol. (far less than I used to and the

doctors were never concerned with that amount.)

I agree that it is very hard to find triggers and long-term and repeatable

experiments must be done to be sure. I also think that regardless of whether

a food is a trigger or not it makes sense for us to eat healthily - we must

a give our bodies the best chance of fighting other illnesses if they come

along even if we see no improvement in AF. I know that too much alcohol is a

real bad idea on general health grounds but I think it is stretching it a

little to say the most healthy amount is none at all.

All the best

--

D (not doing half as well as you at staying in NSR)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/30/2002 11:48:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,

james@... writes:

<< I know that too much alcohol is a

real bad idea on general health grounds but I think it is stretching it a

little to say the most healthy amount is none at all.

>>

Hi, ,

As usual your intelligent opinion makes a great deal of sense. However,

discussing alcohol as a trigger is different from discussing onions or MSG as

triggers. Alcohol is an addictive substance, as you certainly know; and for

people with a genetic predisposition toward alcoholic addiction, the most

healthy amount is indeed none at all. For the average person, who is not

genetically disposed toward alcohol addiction, a little alcohol is possibly

not an afib trigger, as in your case. In fact, I think studies have shown

that a small amount of wine can be beneficial to some people for whom

alcohol addiction is not a strong possibility or a problem. For the those

who are genetically disposed toward alcohol addiction or who are already

alcoholics, a small amount is often not enough and overindulging is

precipitated by that " first drink. "

My point is that in a situation where 500 people, some of whom are not very

knowledgeable about afib and triggers, are silently reading and assimilating

information from people who may seem to those silent readers like experts by

virtue of their afib experience, we need to be careful about the way we

present information about alcohol and other addictive substances such as

caffeine. A small amount of alcohol may not be an afib trigger for a

relatively small amount of people, but I would venture to predict that the

vast majority of afibbers would be better off in avoiding alcohol completely.

My recovered alcoholic brother, in permanent afib as a result of alcohol,

agrees with that assessment completely. His extensive education in the area

of alcoholism has taught him that one drink is too many for an alcoholic.

We don't know how many people in our group are alcoholic or recovered

alcoholics. Often alcoholics themselves don't realize that they have a

problem with alcohol because the hallmark of the disease is denial, refusal

to recognize and treat the problem. Most people who have a problem with

alcohol don't want to acknowledge the fact and need little encouragement to

take that " first drink " or that fiftieth drink. :-) I don't think that the

so-called glories of alcohol should be extolled to a group of predominantly

anonymous afibbers.

in sinus in Seattle (Day 193)

Coffee was my addictive substance! :-)