Guest guest Posted September 16, 1999 Report Share Posted September 16, 1999 Eddy: I'm glad you were able to make AA work for you, rather than feeling you had to do anything you were not comfortable with. However, I'd like to make a pitch for confrontation. Please don't take this as criticism, I believe you did the right thing for you. There is nothing to be ashamed of in being 12 step free. There is nothing to be ashamed of in having been coerced into a religious organization and having been hurt by it. I speak for myself here but I was hurt badly by AA and I'm working hard to get over the feeling that I should shut up about it because AA's such a great organization. Why shouldn't I just shut up? Because then this coercion continues to harm me. I implicitly accept that in this case it is good to waive my right to free speech, in a country where free speech is the first amendment to our original constitution. Well. I don't waive my right to free speech. I won't shut up about it, and I won't talk about it only in a way that is acceptable to AA. In my situation, I am not forced to attend AA meetings, so I have the option of discussing my experience here, in a " friendly " environment. But I have to admit, the idea of confronting AAs is an attractive one. Just going to a meeting and saying, you know, many years ago I sought treatment for depression and instead got forced into AA. I'm here tonight as part of therapy to overcome the resulting trauma. There's currently some debate here about what research says about AA's effectiveness versus alternatives. I like that debate, because I just want some facts upon which to base an informed opinion. I got no facts in AA. I got heartfelt faith in the unseen and unproven. I got emotionally slashed by a therapist and several counselors when I asked for more. Thanks but no thanks. What I am learning in reading this list and other materials critical of AA is that I am not the only one being told, essentially, that I'm the one who screwed up, AA is benevolent and would never hurt me. I'm not looking for a financial settlement from a lawsuit (although I certainly encourage anyone who feels they have a legitimate case to pursue it legally). I'm not looking to get rid of AA. All I want is for AA to be recognized as a big, powerful organization which pushes a treatment modality. How effective is the treatment? What are the risks? For example, AA is harmful for people dealing with depression. No one told me that when, seeking treatment for depression, I was forced into 12 step chemical dependency treatment instead. It's not too much to ask for a consistent set of statistical data to support AA's claims. I have heard a range of 3% to 30% for effectiveness of AA. I have heard that AA's effectiveness rate is less than or equal to the rate of success when people quit on their own, with no assistance. I've heard that AA is the best program going. So what's true? OK. I've written enough Judith > hello gang, tonite i went to an aa meeting at my old " home " group after having not been there for about a month. i still need to get my slip signed. i had mixed feelings about what i would disclose. when it was my turn to talk i did not say that i don't have a sponsor. i don't turn my life over to a higher power everyday. i don't read the big book. i don't work the steps. instead, i tried to focus on what i am doing and talked about that. i tried to focus on " our common problem " . i was honest and open. i didn't have to bullshit my way through it and i didn't have to mention stanton peele, 12 step free, ken ragge, smart, AVRT, or any of that. i can respect the fact that they are there because they are committed to recovery and they beleive in the twelve step approach. i don't want to start any shit with these people. everything went smooth. anybody remember the invasion of the body snatchers? you know the original? the part where the girl screams because a dog gets ran over. then everyone pointed at her and with their mouths wide open made that horrifying sound. remember? that's what i picture would happen if i were to disclose too much in an aa meeting about my choice of addiction recovery. steppers believe the whole world needs " the program " . scary huh! ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 1999 Report Share Posted September 16, 1999 >From: jackandjj@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeeGroups >Subject: just curious >Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:09:15 -0700 > ><< text1.html >> hello gang, tonite i went to an aa meeting at my old " home " group after having not been there for about a month. i still need to get my slip signed. i had mixed feelings about what i would disclose. when it was my turn to talk i did not say that i don't have a sponsor. i don't turn my life over to a higher power everyday. i don't read the big book. i don't work the steps. instead, i tried to focus on what i am doing and talked about that. i tried to focus on " our common problem " . i was honest and open. i didn't have to bullshit my way through it and i didn't have to mention stanton peele, 12 step free, ken ragge, smart, AVRT, or any of that. i can respect the fact that they are there because they are committed to recovery and they beleive in the twelve step approach. i don't want to start any shit with these people. everything went smooth. anybody remember the invasion of the body snatchers? you know the original? the part where the girl screams because a dog gets ran over. then everyone pointed at her and with their mouths wide open made that horrifying sound. remember? that's what i picture would happen if i were to disclose too much in an aa meeting about my choice of addiction recovery. steppers believe the whole world needs " the program " . scary huh! ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 1999 Report Share Posted September 16, 1999 Hello Eddy She didnt scream because a dog was run over, she screamed because it has a huma head!. What you get at AA is the reverse, human bodies with the pack mentality of dogs, who will rip apart any outsider.... Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 1999 Report Share Posted September 16, 1999 Hello Eddy She didnt scream because a dog was run over, she screamed because it has a huma head!. What you get at AA is the reverse, human bodies with the pack mentality of dogs, who will rip apart any outsider.... Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 1999 Report Share Posted September 17, 1999 --- >One of the twisted blatherings that caused me to finally realize that I >was in a cult, and the cult was more important than the individual was >when people started saying in the meetings that they had to find a way >to get everyone! working a program whether they had a >drug/alcohol/sex/gambling/whatever problem or not. Now they're going to >fix the whole world.(Of course the speaker doesn't represent the whole >12-step movement, cause they're anonymous) If the whole world needs it, >then it really isn't about drugs/alcohol/etc/etc. > --------------------------------- In Stanton Peele's excellent book. " The Truth About Addiction and Recovery " , he quotes the editor if something called " Sober Times " as saying: " It is possible to introduce the concepts of recovery to the very young. Imagine whole classrooms full of children to who, recovery and the 12 Steps are familiar, comfortable, _normal_ tools for everyday living. Imagine the possibilities! " I got goosebumps reading this! I have already had my hands full having to deprogram my son from the BS he was taught in the much-hyped but fraudulent program " Project DARE " . ~Rita --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 1999 Report Share Posted September 17, 1999 The funny thing about the cult aspect of AA is how it is scoffed at in the meetings. I remember one open discussion mtg. I went to early on in sobriety, where a lot of the members were saying to, " not trust anyone or anything outside of these rooms. That non-AA people would not and could not understand our 'disease.' Especially those who were actively drinking. " One guy actually had the guts to speak up and say, " you know, when I hear this kind of us vs. them mentality it starts to sound like a cult to me. And I don't want to be part of a cult. " Everyone was dead silent except for a few moans. And then the comment was forgotten. Why did that stick in my mind? I think at the time, I was a newcomer and thought AA was perfect. I thought they guy was being melodramatic. But in hindsight, he was dead on. He expressed healthy skepticism. I admired his courage. Most people are afraid to question the program. I think during my involvement with AA I had to " turn the other cheek " and ignore a lot of the verbal and mental abuse that went on in the rooms. I simply pretended it wasn't happening and of did nothing to stop it. An example is one mtg. I went to: afterwards, a hardcore AA'er was chewing out a newcomer who dared to lead the meeting. The guy told him he led the meeting poorly and could get people drunk by leading it wrong! I was standing around with a group after the mtg. and they all carried on laughing while this poor guy got reamed for not orchestrating a perfect meeting. I wanted to tell the hardcore guy to ease up but I didn't . Its that kind of stuff that goes on all the time but is never talked about. AA is abusive because most its members grew up in abusive families. They know no other way. Everyone thinks there doing what's right but in fact its harmful. And no one will ever tell them to cut it out. The program and the steps not only encourages self-hatred but also inspires abuse, control tactics and manipulation. Why is that? I think its because most abusers and AA members are essentially masochists. And most masochistics are secretly sadists. So all though they love pain and chaos they also privately get a thrill out of seeing others in pain and misery. Not that only abusers reside in AA. They're everywhere. They simply don't get better in AA. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: just curious >Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 06:24:52 -0700 > > > >--- > > > > > > >One of the twisted blatherings that caused me to finally realize that I > >was in a cult, and the cult was more important than the individual was > >when people started saying in the meetings that they had to find a way > >to get everyone! working a program whether they had a > >drug/alcohol/sex/gambling/whatever problem or not. Now they're going to > >fix the whole world.(Of course the speaker doesn't represent the whole > >12-step movement, cause they're anonymous) If the whole world needs it, > >then it really isn't about drugs/alcohol/etc/etc. > > >--------------------------------- > > In Stanton Peele's excellent book. " The Truth About Addiction and >Recovery " , he quotes the editor if something called " Sober Times " as >saying: > > " It is possible to introduce the concepts of recovery to the very >young. Imagine whole classrooms full of children to who, recovery and the >12 Steps are familiar, comfortable, _normal_ tools for everyday living. >Imagine the possibilities! " > > I got goosebumps reading this! I have already had my hands full >having to deprogram my son from the BS he was taught in the much-hyped but >fraudulent program " Project DARE " . > >~Rita > > >--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >BETTER THAN EVER: 250 HOURS FREE on AOL! Find out why 18 MM >people have chosen AOL as their ISP! Click here NOW! for >250 Free HOURS http://clickhere./click/914 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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