Guest guest Posted September 4, 1999 Report Share Posted September 4, 1999 Hi all! Went to another meeting last night and had a brief conversation with a "believer". After telling him from observation what types of personality traits I found in most AAers, and my theory of why a narrow few of addicts subscribe to steppist brainwashing and change, he quipped, "but they're clean!". Like in previous times when confronted with these pat statements and slogans, I was speechless! In this mans case, desperation and AA dogma has taken its toll. I spoke to him about their first step which they consider the most important one. I said that we need to empower ourselves and not erroneously declare that we are eternally powerless over a bad habit and behavior. I said, "yes", addiction can render ones life unmanageable however, even outside addiction life can be unmanageable. I see young people that are confused, desperate, and suggestionable come to these meetings and start parroting AA dogma and then remember what happened in history when desperate, confused, suggestionable and angry people searching for a better way are exposed to dictators. With Hitler, and recently Koresh and , we have seen the potential tragedy that involves mind control by another. Clearly, I am against a monster here and do not intent to abandon my efforts to help instill free choice and free thinking and the concept that we alone are responsible for our behaviors and that denying our capacity to change and adapt in our world while using our BRAIN is a MISTAKE! The false teaching that we are weak and not capable of changing or thinking for ourselves in the pursuit of change from bad habits must be abolished! Let us throw the shrouds off this beast and expose him!! Muddled in false and dangerous dogma, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 1999 Report Share Posted September 4, 1999 , And yes, I have seen first hand what can happen to one who swallows this dogma hook-line-and sinker. There will come a time when this person becomes disappointed in their beloved AA program. The tendency of others who observe this happing to the poor hurt person will be to blame that person. Of course as you well know the disgruntled person will be told that he or she is in relapse. I have even heard hard-liners say: " Hell if you just don't get it you might as well give up and die. " Sadly, there are those who do exactly that. But they are clean! Hi all! Went to another meeting last night and had a brief conversation with a " believer " . After telling him from observation what types of personality traits I found in most AAers, and my theory of why a narrow few of addicts subscribe to steppist brainwashing and change, he quipped, " but they're clean! " . Like in previous times when confronted with these pat statements and slogans, I was speechless! In this mans case, desperation and AA dogma has taken its toll. I spoke to him about their first step which they consider the most important one. I said that we need to empower ourselves and not erroneously declare that we are eternally powerless over a bad habit and behavior. I said, " yes " , addiction can render ones life unmanageable however, even outside addiction life can be unmanageable. I see young people that are confused, desperate, and suggestionable come to these meetings and start parroting AA dogma and then remember what happened in history when desperate, confused, suggestionable and angry people searching for a better way are exposed to dictators. With Hitler, and recently Koresh and , we have seen the potential tragedy that involves mind control by another. Clearly, I am against a monster here and do not intent to abandon my efforts to help instill free choice and free thinking and the concept that we alone are responsible for our behaviors and that denying our capacity to change and adapt in our world while using our BRAIN is a MISTAKE! The false teaching that we are weak and not capable of changing or thinking for ourselves in the pursuit of change from bad habits must be abolished! Let us throw the shrouds off this beast and expose him!! Muddled in false and dangerous dogma, eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-freewww. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 1999 Report Share Posted September 4, 1999 , And yes, I have seen first hand what can happen to one who swallows this dogma hook-line-and sinker. There will come a time when this person becomes disappointed in their beloved AA program. The tendency of others who observe this happing to the poor hurt person will be to blame that person. Of course as you well know the disgruntled person will be told that he or she is in relapse. I have even heard hard-liners say: " Hell if you just don't get it you might as well give up and die. " Sadly, there are those who do exactly that. But they are clean! Hi all! Went to another meeting last night and had a brief conversation with a " believer " . After telling him from observation what types of personality traits I found in most AAers, and my theory of why a narrow few of addicts subscribe to steppist brainwashing and change, he quipped, " but they're clean! " . Like in previous times when confronted with these pat statements and slogans, I was speechless! In this mans case, desperation and AA dogma has taken its toll. I spoke to him about their first step which they consider the most important one. I said that we need to empower ourselves and not erroneously declare that we are eternally powerless over a bad habit and behavior. I said, " yes " , addiction can render ones life unmanageable however, even outside addiction life can be unmanageable. I see young people that are confused, desperate, and suggestionable come to these meetings and start parroting AA dogma and then remember what happened in history when desperate, confused, suggestionable and angry people searching for a better way are exposed to dictators. With Hitler, and recently Koresh and , we have seen the potential tragedy that involves mind control by another. Clearly, I am against a monster here and do not intent to abandon my efforts to help instill free choice and free thinking and the concept that we alone are responsible for our behaviors and that denying our capacity to change and adapt in our world while using our BRAIN is a MISTAKE! The false teaching that we are weak and not capable of changing or thinking for ourselves in the pursuit of change from bad habits must be abolished! Let us throw the shrouds off this beast and expose him!! Muddled in false and dangerous dogma, eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-freewww. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 1999 Report Share Posted September 4, 1999 Hi , You're playing to a tough crowd, but then again there probably are a few in the bunch that have serious doubts that are just needing to have their suspicions validated. Let's face it, the opportunity for experiencing rational input in AA meetings is rare indeed. If I had heard you share in a meeting it would have been so refreshing. Unfortunately most ideas like yours and glimmers of reality that finally take flight in AA meetings are quickly shot down or dismissed with the wave of a Big Book. Wish I could join you at one of your meetings. It would be a hoot. Its very disheartening how in this modern age that as a culture, we are practicing such superstitious voodoo that is tantamount to the bleedings physicians practiced in the Middle Ages. Ineffective, nonsensical, and ultimately harmful to the organism. > Klingbeil wrote: > > > Hi all! > > Went to another meeting last night and had a brief conversation with a > " believer " . After telling him from observation what types of > personality traits I found in most AAers, and my theory of why a > narrow few of addicts subscribe to steppist brainwashing and change, > he quipped, " but they're clean! " . Like in previous times when > confronted with these pat statements and slogans, I was speechless! In > this mans case, desperation and AA dogma has taken its toll. I spoke > to him about their first step which they consider the most important > one. I said that we need to empower ourselves and not erroneously > declare that we are eternally powerless over a bad habit and > behavior. I said, " yes " , addiction can render ones life unmanageable > however, even outside addiction life can be unmanageable. I see young > people that are confused, desperate, and suggestionable come to these > meetings and start parroting AA dogma and then remember what happened > in history when desperate, confused, suggestionable and angry people > searching for a better way are exposed to dictators. With Hitler, and > recently Koresh and , we have seen the potential tragedy > that involves mind control by another. Clearly, I am against a > monster here and do not intent to abandon my efforts to help instill > free choice and free thinking and the concept that we alone are > responsible for our behaviors and that denying our capacity to change > and adapt in our world while using our BRAIN is a MISTAKE! The false > teaching that we are weak and not capable of changing or thinking for > ourselves in the pursuit of change from bad habits must be abolished! > Let us throw the shrouds off this beast and expose him!! > > Muddled in false and dangerous dogma, > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Real Guide - MP3 of the day] > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 1999 Report Share Posted September 4, 1999 Its very disheartening how in this modern age that as a culture, we are practicing such superstitious voodoo that is tantamount to the bleedings physicians practiced in the Middle Ages. Ineffective, nonsensical, and ultimately harmful to the organism. Hi : Disheartening indeed! I have been exploring while questioning people here in my community about why people are so damn quick to seek out valuable and sometimes life saving support from a " higher power " rather than to use their own bodily resources ie the brain. I am an ultramaratoner (running beyond 42k) and I have given up on my self a time or two in competition. I hated it and vowed not to do it again. After dropping out of two races years ago because of a internal dialog that was telling me the stress was too much, I have learned that my mind can be an adversary. Today I listen to what I tell myself, challenge the thoughts for irrational garbage and push myself through it. It has been rewarding for me to overcome those thoughts that restrict my performance by comparing myself with others. I have correlated this with behavior modification strategies and I think that challenging thoughts, like I do when running, can be applicable with other behaviors as well and can be taught. Perhaps some people do not have a cognitive map which includes the ability of introspection. Religion really has a double edge here in this and other societies and cultures. To me its criminal to coerce people into believing in the supernatural and cause them to become blind to their own resources for change if change is desirable. Re: But they are clean! > Hi , > You're playing to a tough crowd, but then again there probably are a few > in the bunch that have serious doubts that are just needing to have > their suspicions validated. Let's face it, the opportunity for > experiencing rational input in AA meetings is rare indeed. If I had > heard you share in a meeting it would have been so refreshing. > Unfortunately most ideas like yours and glimmers of reality that finally > take flight in AA meetings are quickly shot down or dismissed with the > wave of a Big Book. Wish I could join you at one of your meetings. It > would be a hoot. > > Its very disheartening how in this modern age that as a culture, we are > practicing such superstitious voodoo that is tantamount to the bleedings > physicians practiced in the Middle Ages. Ineffective, nonsensical, and > ultimately harmful to the organism. > > > > Klingbeil wrote: > > > > > > Hi all! > > > > Went to another meeting last night and had a brief conversation with a > > " believer " . After telling him from observation what types of > > personality traits I found in most AAers, and my theory of why a > > narrow few of addicts subscribe to steppist brainwashing and change, > > he quipped, " but they're clean! " . Like in previous times when > > confronted with these pat statements and slogans, I was speechless! In > > this mans case, desperation and AA dogma has taken its toll. I spoke > > to him about their first step which they consider the most important > > one. I said that we need to empower ourselves and not erroneously > > declare that we are eternally powerless over a bad habit and > > behavior. I said, " yes " , addiction can render ones life unmanageable > > however, even outside addiction life can be unmanageable. I see young > > people that are confused, desperate, and suggestionable come to these > > meetings and start parroting AA dogma and then remember what happened > > in history when desperate, confused, suggestionable and angry people > > searching for a better way are exposed to dictators. With Hitler, and > > recently Koresh and , we have seen the potential tragedy > > that involves mind control by another. Clearly, I am against a > > monster here and do not intent to abandon my efforts to help instill > > free choice and free thinking and the concept that we alone are > > responsible for our behaviors and that denying our capacity to change > > and adapt in our world while using our BRAIN is a MISTAKE! The false > > teaching that we are weak and not capable of changing or thinking for > > ourselves in the pursuit of change from bad habits must be abolished! > > Let us throw the shrouds off this beast and expose him!! > > > > Muddled in false and dangerous dogma, > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [Real Guide - MP3 of the day] > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > www. - Simplifying group communications > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > http://clickhere./click/805 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 Good Morning! Another meeting produced another attack. I was questioned by a very ignorant man in group about why I come to meetings. He did so in the meeting to embarras me. On a previous occasion, I told him that I was studying cults, with the newcomer rescue league, and now, collecting information for a book that I am writing. After he finished his questioning, I told him that I had told him before why I come to meetings. I went on to say that I had difficulty understanding why he persists on asking me this question and said that I wish he would STOP! When I finished speaking, he looked around the room in gestures to solicit the support of other members which he got. They seem to think that I have the problem! These are rather young people too. (thirties and early fortys) At the close of the meeting, I gave the chairman a copy of an article that I pulled off aadeprogramming. It was an article about an inmate in a New Hamphire jail that challenged the prison system for telling him that he must attend AA. His contention was that AA steppism is religious and therefor, according to the 1st ammendmant, he cannot be forced to attend meetings nor can he be biased by the parole board for his refusal. He won the case! This man is a federal parolee. Spiritual not religous---BULLSHIT! Re: But they are clean! > > > > Hi , > > You're playing to a tough crowd, but then again there probably are a few > > in the bunch that have serious doubts that are just needing to have > > their suspicions validated. Let's face it, the opportunity for > > experiencing rational input in AA meetings is rare indeed. If I had > > heard you share in a meeting it would have been so refreshing. > > Unfortunately most ideas like yours and glimmers of reality that finally > > take flight in AA meetings are quickly shot down or dismissed with the > > wave of a Big Book. Wish I could join you at one of your meetings. It > > would be a hoot. > > > > Its very disheartening how in this modern age that as a culture, we are > > practicing such superstitious voodoo that is tantamount to the bleedings > > physicians practiced in the Middle Ages. Ineffective, nonsensical, and > > ultimately harmful to the organism. > > > > > > > Klingbeil wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi all! > > > > > > Went to another meeting last night and had a brief conversation with a > > > " believer " . After telling him from observation what types of > > > personality traits I found in most AAers, and my theory of why a > > > narrow few of addicts subscribe to steppist brainwashing and change, > > > he quipped, " but they're clean! " . Like in previous times when > > > confronted with these pat statements and slogans, I was speechless! In > > > this mans case, desperation and AA dogma has taken its toll. I spoke > > > to him about their first step which they consider the most important > > > one. I said that we need to empower ourselves and not erroneously > > > declare that we are eternally powerless over a bad habit and > > > behavior. I said, " yes " , addiction can render ones life unmanageable > > > however, even outside addiction life can be unmanageable. I see young > > > people that are confused, desperate, and suggestionable come to these > > > meetings and start parroting AA dogma and then remember what happened > > > in history when desperate, confused, suggestionable and angry people > > > searching for a better way are exposed to dictators. With Hitler, and > > > recently Koresh and , we have seen the potential tragedy > > > that involves mind control by another. Clearly, I am against a > > > monster here and do not intent to abandon my efforts to help instill > > > free choice and free thinking and the concept that we alone are > > > responsible for our behaviors and that denying our capacity to change > > > and adapt in our world while using our BRAIN is a MISTAKE! The false > > > teaching that we are weak and not capable of changing or thinking for > > > ourselves in the pursuit of change from bad habits must be abolished! > > > Let us throw the shrouds off this beast and expose him!! > > > > > > Muddled in false and dangerous dogma, > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > [Real Guide - MP3 of the day] > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > www. - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > > http://clickhere./click/805 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > http://clickhere./click/805 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 Good Morning! Another meeting produced another attack. I was questioned by a very ignorant man in group about why I come to meetings. He did so in the meeting to embarras me. On a previous occasion, I told him that I was studying cults, with the newcomer rescue league, and now, collecting information for a book that I am writing. After he finished his questioning, I told him that I had told him before why I come to meetings. I went on to say that I had difficulty understanding why he persists on asking me this question and said that I wish he would STOP! When I finished speaking, he looked around the room in gestures to solicit the support of other members which he got. They seem to think that I have the problem! These are rather young people too. (thirties and early fortys) At the close of the meeting, I gave the chairman a copy of an article that I pulled off aadeprogramming. It was an article about an inmate in a New Hamphire jail that challenged the prison system for telling him that he must attend AA. His contention was that AA steppism is religious and therefor, according to the 1st ammendmant, he cannot be forced to attend meetings nor can he be biased by the parole board for his refusal. He won the case! This man is a federal parolee. Spiritual not religous---BULLSHIT! Re: But they are clean! > > > > Hi , > > You're playing to a tough crowd, but then again there probably are a few > > in the bunch that have serious doubts that are just needing to have > > their suspicions validated. Let's face it, the opportunity for > > experiencing rational input in AA meetings is rare indeed. If I had > > heard you share in a meeting it would have been so refreshing. > > Unfortunately most ideas like yours and glimmers of reality that finally > > take flight in AA meetings are quickly shot down or dismissed with the > > wave of a Big Book. Wish I could join you at one of your meetings. It > > would be a hoot. > > > > Its very disheartening how in this modern age that as a culture, we are > > practicing such superstitious voodoo that is tantamount to the bleedings > > physicians practiced in the Middle Ages. Ineffective, nonsensical, and > > ultimately harmful to the organism. > > > > > > > Klingbeil wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi all! > > > > > > Went to another meeting last night and had a brief conversation with a > > > " believer " . After telling him from observation what types of > > > personality traits I found in most AAers, and my theory of why a > > > narrow few of addicts subscribe to steppist brainwashing and change, > > > he quipped, " but they're clean! " . Like in previous times when > > > confronted with these pat statements and slogans, I was speechless! In > > > this mans case, desperation and AA dogma has taken its toll. I spoke > > > to him about their first step which they consider the most important > > > one. I said that we need to empower ourselves and not erroneously > > > declare that we are eternally powerless over a bad habit and > > > behavior. I said, " yes " , addiction can render ones life unmanageable > > > however, even outside addiction life can be unmanageable. I see young > > > people that are confused, desperate, and suggestionable come to these > > > meetings and start parroting AA dogma and then remember what happened > > > in history when desperate, confused, suggestionable and angry people > > > searching for a better way are exposed to dictators. With Hitler, and > > > recently Koresh and , we have seen the potential tragedy > > > that involves mind control by another. Clearly, I am against a > > > monster here and do not intent to abandon my efforts to help instill > > > free choice and free thinking and the concept that we alone are > > > responsible for our behaviors and that denying our capacity to change > > > and adapt in our world while using our BRAIN is a MISTAKE! The false > > > teaching that we are weak and not capable of changing or thinking for > > > ourselves in the pursuit of change from bad habits must be abolished! > > > Let us throw the shrouds off this beast and expose him!! > > > > > > Muddled in false and dangerous dogma, > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > [Real Guide - MP3 of the day] > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > www. - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > > http://clickhere./click/805 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > http://clickhere./click/805 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 Good Morning! Another meeting produced another attack. I was questioned by a very ignorant man in group about why I come to meetings. He did so in the meeting to embarras me. On a previous occasion, I told him that I was studying cults, with the newcomer rescue league, and now, collecting information for a book that I am writing. After he finished his questioning, I told him that I had told him before why I come to meetings. I went on to say that I had difficulty understanding why he persists on asking me this question and said that I wish he would STOP! When I finished speaking, he looked around the room in gestures to solicit the support of other members which he got. They seem to think that I have the problem! These are rather young people too. (thirties and early fortys) At the close of the meeting, I gave the chairman a copy of an article that I pulled off aadeprogramming. It was an article about an inmate in a New Hamphire jail that challenged the prison system for telling him that he must attend AA. His contention was that AA steppism is religious and therefor, according to the 1st ammendmant, he cannot be forced to attend meetings nor can he be biased by the parole board for his refusal. He won the case! This man is a federal parolee. Spiritual not religous---BULLSHIT! Re: But they are clean! > > > > Hi , > > You're playing to a tough crowd, but then again there probably are a few > > in the bunch that have serious doubts that are just needing to have > > their suspicions validated. Let's face it, the opportunity for > > experiencing rational input in AA meetings is rare indeed. If I had > > heard you share in a meeting it would have been so refreshing. > > Unfortunately most ideas like yours and glimmers of reality that finally > > take flight in AA meetings are quickly shot down or dismissed with the > > wave of a Big Book. Wish I could join you at one of your meetings. It > > would be a hoot. > > > > Its very disheartening how in this modern age that as a culture, we are > > practicing such superstitious voodoo that is tantamount to the bleedings > > physicians practiced in the Middle Ages. Ineffective, nonsensical, and > > ultimately harmful to the organism. > > > > > > > Klingbeil wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi all! > > > > > > Went to another meeting last night and had a brief conversation with a > > > " believer " . After telling him from observation what types of > > > personality traits I found in most AAers, and my theory of why a > > > narrow few of addicts subscribe to steppist brainwashing and change, > > > he quipped, " but they're clean! " . Like in previous times when > > > confronted with these pat statements and slogans, I was speechless! In > > > this mans case, desperation and AA dogma has taken its toll. I spoke > > > to him about their first step which they consider the most important > > > one. I said that we need to empower ourselves and not erroneously > > > declare that we are eternally powerless over a bad habit and > > > behavior. I said, " yes " , addiction can render ones life unmanageable > > > however, even outside addiction life can be unmanageable. I see young > > > people that are confused, desperate, and suggestionable come to these > > > meetings and start parroting AA dogma and then remember what happened > > > in history when desperate, confused, suggestionable and angry people > > > searching for a better way are exposed to dictators. With Hitler, and > > > recently Koresh and , we have seen the potential tragedy > > > that involves mind control by another. Clearly, I am against a > > > monster here and do not intent to abandon my efforts to help instill > > > free choice and free thinking and the concept that we alone are > > > responsible for our behaviors and that denying our capacity to change > > > and adapt in our world while using our BRAIN is a MISTAKE! The false > > > teaching that we are weak and not capable of changing or thinking for > > > ourselves in the pursuit of change from bad habits must be abolished! > > > Let us throw the shrouds off this beast and expose him!! > > > > > > Muddled in false and dangerous dogma, > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > [Real Guide - MP3 of the day] > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > www. - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > > http://clickhere./click/805 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > http://clickhere./click/805 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 hello, apple, i like the business card idea. i need to go to meetings twice a week to get my slip signed so it would happily distribute them. currently, i am in court ordered out-patient treatment. we are presented with limited information that comes from the disease model of addiction. today we were presented with a model by patrick carnes. i raised questions. i challenged the model. i challenged the idea that we are powerless over our thoughts. i am not in denial. i have an open mind. but, am i just to accept without question the limited information we are presented with? i also question the way the information is presented implicitly as truth or fact. am i then being educated about substance dependence and substance abuse or am i being indoctrinated? i need to counter the information i'm feed at mandatory aa meetings and court orderd treatment with alternative ideas, and research findings. i get these from this e-group and from reading stanton peele's literature along with other materials i find on the web at link sites. i don't won't to be brainwashed by the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 I'm convinced that the only way to budge the rock of Gibraltar that is AA is by using their own propaganda to show how stupid it all is. For example: " I sent a letter bomb to the GSO... my disease made me do it... but I didn't drink, and today.... today that's OK " Or, " I was reading my Big Book today, in between meditation sessions, and I stumbled upon the following 'in situations where we had not been entirely at fault, we find that early on, we made a decision based on self, that placed us in a postion to be hurt'.... what a wonderful relief it was to me, now I understand that all of the people I hurt during my drinking had actually made a decision early on, based on self, that placed them in a postion to be hurt by me " yada yada yada. I know, I'm repeating myself... Nevertheless, it's too late for you now, because they know you're a heretic. Same with me, the whole state knows I'm a heretic. There's no hope for me to pull any of the " use their own medicine on them " tricks. I will be printing up AA deprogramming business cards. Thousands of them. The zombie and the URL on one side, and the message: " Something about AA never DID feel quite right.... " on the other. Anyone who wants a bunch can send me their address. Your mission, should you choose to accept it.... put them between the pages of recovery books at bookstores, and sneak in to meetings and put them between the pages of Big books & 12 & 12 books. hee hee hee Apple > Good Morning! > > Another meeting produced another attack. I was questioned by a very > ignorant man in group about why I come to meetings. He did so in the > meeting to embarras me. On a previous occasion, I told him that I was > studying cults, with the newcomer rescue league, and now, collecting > information for a book that I am writing. After he finished his > questioning, I told him that I had told him before why I come to meetings. > I went on to say that I had difficulty understanding why he persists on > asking me this question and said that I wish he would STOP! When I finished > speaking, he looked around the room in gestures to solicit the support of > other members which he got. They seem to think that I have the problem! > These are rather young people too. (thirties and early fortys) At the > close of the meeting, I gave the chairman a copy of an article that I pulled > off aadeprogramming. It was an article about an inmate in a New Hamphire > jail that challenged the prison system for telling him that he must attend > AA. His contention was that AA steppism is religious and therefor, > according to the 1st ammendmant, he cannot be forced to attend meetings nor > can he be biased by the parole board for his refusal. He won the case! > This man is a federal parolee. Spiritual not religous---BULLSHIT! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 >hee hee hee > >Apple Ho ho ho! (in the style of Father Xmas) Joe Berenbaum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 >hee hee hee > >Apple Ho ho ho! (in the style of Father Xmas) Joe Berenbaum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 Hi Apple! Anyone who wants a bunch can send me their address. Your mission, > should you choose to accept it.... put them between the pages of > recovery books at bookstores, and sneak in to meetings and put them > between the pages of Big books & 12 & 12 books. > hee hee hee > Please place me on the list to receive the cards. If there is a fee, I will pay. My address is: Klingbeil P.O. Box 448 Sheridan WY 82801 Thanks Re: But they are clean! > I'm convinced that the only way to budge the rock of Gibraltar that is > AA is by using their own propaganda to show how stupid it all is. > For example: " I sent a letter bomb to the GSO... my disease made me do > it... but I didn't drink, and today.... today that's OK " > Or, " I was reading my Big Book today, in between meditation sessions, > and I stumbled upon the following 'in situations where we had not been > entirely at fault, we find that early on, we made a decision based on > self, that placed us in a postion to be hurt'.... what a wonderful > relief it was to me, now I understand that all of the people I hurt > during my drinking had actually made a decision early on, based on > self, that placed them in a postion to be hurt by me " > yada yada yada. I know, I'm repeating myself... Nevertheless, it's too > late for you now, because they know you're a heretic. Same with me, the > whole state knows I'm a heretic. There's no hope for me to pull any of > the " use their own medicine on them " tricks. > > I will be printing up AA deprogramming business cards. Thousands of > them. The zombie and the URL on one side, and the message: " Something > about AA never DID feel quite right.... " on the other. > > > Apple > > > Good Morning! > > > > Another meeting produced another attack. I was questioned by a very > > ignorant man in group about why I come to meetings. He did so in the > > meeting to embarras me. On a previous occasion, I told him that I was > > studying cults, with the newcomer rescue league, and now, collecting > > information for a book that I am writing. After he finished his > > questioning, I told him that I had told him before why I come to > meetings. > > I went on to say that I had difficulty understanding why he persists > on > > asking me this question and said that I wish he would STOP! When I > finished > > speaking, he looked around the room in gestures to solicit the > support of > > other members which he got. They seem to think that I have the > problem! > > These are rather young people too. (thirties and early fortys) At > the > > close of the meeting, I gave the chairman a copy of an article that I > pulled > > off aadeprogramming. It was an article about an inmate in a New > Hamphire > > jail that challenged the prison system for telling him that he must > attend > > AA. His contention was that AA steppism is religious and therefor, > > according to the 1st ammendmant, he cannot be forced to attend > meetings nor > > can he be biased by the parole board for his refusal. He won the > case! > > This man is a federal parolee. Spiritual not religous---BULLSHIT! > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > http://clickhere./click/805 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 At 11:21 AM 9/5/99 -0700, AppleDTP@... wrote: > >I will be printing up AA deprogramming business cards. Thousands of >them. The zombie and the URL on one side, and the message: " Something >about AA never DID feel quite right.... " on the other. Can you put something on your website to show just what these look like? Maybe even put a high-resolution scan, or generate an image in a large format that can be printed with good results at business card size, then whoever wants to can print their own. Specifically, what does the zombie look like? Is there a picture on aadeprogramming.com? ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 An interesting idea Ben about having it available on the site for printing... The zombie is the trademark brainwashed guy who is ever present in the upper left corner. Yes, he is on the site. Apple > > > > >I will be printing up AA deprogramming business cards. Thousands of > >them. The zombie and the URL on one side, and the message: " Something > >about AA never DID feel quite right.... " on the other. > > Can you put something on your website to show just what these look > like? Maybe even put a high-resolution scan, or generate an image in a > large format that can be printed with good results at business card > size, then whoever wants to can print their own. > Specifically, what does the zombie look like? Is there a picture on > aadeprogramming.com? > > > > ----- > http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 An interesting idea Ben about having it available on the site for printing... The zombie is the trademark brainwashed guy who is ever present in the upper left corner. Yes, he is on the site. Apple > > > > >I will be printing up AA deprogramming business cards. Thousands of > >them. The zombie and the URL on one side, and the message: " Something > >about AA never DID feel quite right.... " on the other. > > Can you put something on your website to show just what these look > like? Maybe even put a high-resolution scan, or generate an image in a > large format that can be printed with good results at business card > size, then whoever wants to can print their own. > Specifically, what does the zombie look like? Is there a picture on > aadeprogramming.com? > > > > ----- > http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 I'm convinced that society just wants us unruly addicts & alkies subdued, and running around like fools apologizing for things that were done to us. I will have to get rolling on the business card idea. I will keep a small packet in my purse, and leave them in phone booths in Manhattan, as well as slip them under the door of AA clubs, etc. The possibilities are endless. It's the cheapest calling card possible. Apple > hello, apple, i like the business card idea. i need to go to meetings twice a > week to get my slip signed so it would happily distribute them. currently, i > am in court ordered out-patient treatment. we are presented with limited > information that comes from the disease model of addiction. today we were > presented with a model by patrick carnes. i raised questions. i challenged > the model. i challenged the idea that we are powerless over our thoughts. i > am not in denial. i have an open mind. but, am i just to accept without > question the limited information we are presented with? i also question the > way the information is presented implicitly as truth or fact. am i then being > educated about substance dependence and substance abuse or am i being > indoctrinated? i need to counter the information i'm feed at mandatory aa > meetings and court orderd treatment with alternative ideas, and research > findings. i get these from this e-group and from reading stanton peele's > literature along with other materials i find on the web at link sites. i > don't won't to be brainwashed by the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 I'm convinced that society just wants us unruly addicts & alkies subdued, and running around like fools apologizing for things that were done to us. I will have to get rolling on the business card idea. I will keep a small packet in my purse, and leave them in phone booths in Manhattan, as well as slip them under the door of AA clubs, etc. The possibilities are endless. It's the cheapest calling card possible. Apple > hello, apple, i like the business card idea. i need to go to meetings twice a > week to get my slip signed so it would happily distribute them. currently, i > am in court ordered out-patient treatment. we are presented with limited > information that comes from the disease model of addiction. today we were > presented with a model by patrick carnes. i raised questions. i challenged > the model. i challenged the idea that we are powerless over our thoughts. i > am not in denial. i have an open mind. but, am i just to accept without > question the limited information we are presented with? i also question the > way the information is presented implicitly as truth or fact. am i then being > educated about substance dependence and substance abuse or am i being > indoctrinated? i need to counter the information i'm feed at mandatory aa > meetings and court orderd treatment with alternative ideas, and research > findings. i get these from this e-group and from reading stanton peele's > literature along with other materials i find on the web at link sites. i > don't won't to be brainwashed by the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 At 07:10 PM 9/5/99 -0700, AppleDTP@... wrote: >I'm convinced that society just wants us unruly addicts & alkies >subdued, and running around like fools apologizing for things that were >done to us. >I will have to get rolling on the business card idea. I will keep a >small packet in my purse, and leave them in phone booths in Manhattan, >as well as slip them under the door of AA clubs, etc. >The possibilities are endless. It's the cheapest calling card possible. >Apple Wow, if the pro-AA, anti-anything-else letters to your site are bad now, it's hard to imagine what letters written in " the dubious luxury of normal men " this will bring. I don't want to discourage you from doing this, but I hope you're prepared for whatever it brings to you. :-) ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 At 07:10 PM 9/5/99 -0700, AppleDTP@... wrote: >I'm convinced that society just wants us unruly addicts & alkies >subdued, and running around like fools apologizing for things that were >done to us. >I will have to get rolling on the business card idea. I will keep a >small packet in my purse, and leave them in phone booths in Manhattan, >as well as slip them under the door of AA clubs, etc. >The possibilities are endless. It's the cheapest calling card possible. >Apple Wow, if the pro-AA, anti-anything-else letters to your site are bad now, it's hard to imagine what letters written in " the dubious luxury of normal men " this will bring. I don't want to discourage you from doing this, but I hope you're prepared for whatever it brings to you. :-) ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 babystrang-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7829 > I'm convinced that society just wants us unruly addicts & alkies > subdued, and running around like fools apologizing for things that were > done to us. > I will have to get rolling on the business card idea. I will keep a > small packet in my purse, and leave them in phone booths in Manhattan, > as well as slip them under the door of AA clubs, etc. > The possibilities are endless. It's the cheapest calling card possible. > Apple Hmmm. Might be worth it to come up with readymade graphics that could be e-mailed to interested parties, printed off on a laser printer, and cranked out en masse on a late-night caffeine-fueled trip to a copy shop. Something business-card sized that could be placed discreetly in books, certainly; but also a quarter-page or even full-page bulletin-board broadside that could be pasted or stapled in strategic places. Something copyright-free, well-designed, easily reproduced...something that could be copied onto stickers and slapped all over phone booths, AA club restrooms, the like. Hell, you wouldn't always have to email it out to people--you could put it on the website and people could take it from there, too. Now that I've jumped in on the discussion at hand, I might as well say " hello " --I've been away from this list for several months, and am glad to see tha it's grown so much in the meantime--but not at all surprised. Hell, it can only grow, can't it? This isn't even the tip of the iceberg, not yet, anyway... Cheers, Mabee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 1999 Report Share Posted September 5, 1999 babystrang-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7829 > I'm convinced that society just wants us unruly addicts & alkies > subdued, and running around like fools apologizing for things that were > done to us. > I will have to get rolling on the business card idea. I will keep a > small packet in my purse, and leave them in phone booths in Manhattan, > as well as slip them under the door of AA clubs, etc. > The possibilities are endless. It's the cheapest calling card possible. > Apple Hmmm. Might be worth it to come up with readymade graphics that could be e-mailed to interested parties, printed off on a laser printer, and cranked out en masse on a late-night caffeine-fueled trip to a copy shop. Something business-card sized that could be placed discreetly in books, certainly; but also a quarter-page or even full-page bulletin-board broadside that could be pasted or stapled in strategic places. Something copyright-free, well-designed, easily reproduced...something that could be copied onto stickers and slapped all over phone booths, AA club restrooms, the like. Hell, you wouldn't always have to email it out to people--you could put it on the website and people could take it from there, too. Now that I've jumped in on the discussion at hand, I might as well say " hello " --I've been away from this list for several months, and am glad to see tha it's grown so much in the meantime--but not at all surprised. Hell, it can only grow, can't it? This isn't even the tip of the iceberg, not yet, anyway... Cheers, Mabee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 Welcome back to the list ! So... it's two votes for placards... (counting) Apple > > Hmmm. Might be worth it to come up with readymade graphics that could > be e-mailed to interested parties, printed off on a laser printer, and > cranked out en masse on a late-night caffeine-fueled trip to a copy > shop. Something business-card sized that could be placed discreetly in > books, certainly; but also a quarter-page or even full-page > bulletin-board broadside that could be pasted or stapled in strategic > places. Something copyright-free, well-designed, easily > reproduced...something that could be copied onto stickers and slapped > all over phone booths, AA club restrooms, the like. Hell, you wouldn't > always have to email it out to people--you could put it on the website > and people could take it from there, too. > > Now that I've jumped in on the discussion at hand, I might as well say > " hello " --I've been away from this list for several months, and am glad > to see tha it's grown so much in the meantime--but not at all > surprised. Hell, it can only grow, can't it? This isn't even the tip > of the iceberg, not yet, anyway... > > Cheers, > Mabee. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 Welcome back to the list ! So... it's two votes for placards... (counting) Apple > > Hmmm. Might be worth it to come up with readymade graphics that could > be e-mailed to interested parties, printed off on a laser printer, and > cranked out en masse on a late-night caffeine-fueled trip to a copy > shop. Something business-card sized that could be placed discreetly in > books, certainly; but also a quarter-page or even full-page > bulletin-board broadside that could be pasted or stapled in strategic > places. Something copyright-free, well-designed, easily > reproduced...something that could be copied onto stickers and slapped > all over phone booths, AA club restrooms, the like. Hell, you wouldn't > always have to email it out to people--you could put it on the website > and people could take it from there, too. > > Now that I've jumped in on the discussion at hand, I might as well say > " hello " --I've been away from this list for several months, and am glad > to see tha it's grown so much in the meantime--but not at all > surprised. Hell, it can only grow, can't it? This isn't even the tip > of the iceberg, not yet, anyway... > > Cheers, > Mabee. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 1999 Report Share Posted September 6, 1999 Maybe slipping them under the door of an AA club is malicious, but on phone booths in cities, it seems like a good idea. Although I love the idea of sneaking in to a recovery shop and booby trapping the books. Another good place is the meditation books in book stores. Those meditation books always distrupted my serenity. I dated a guy who kept buying me meditation books. He was of the " anger is bad " belief. Anytime I'd get angry, he'd grumble " let it go.... LET IT GO.... " meaning don't disrupt my serenity with your anger. Needless to say, we didn't date very long. Apple > > Wow, if the pro-AA, anti-anything-else letters to your site are bad now, > it's hard to imagine what letters written in " the dubious luxury of normal > men " this will bring. I don't want to discourage you from doing this, but > I hope you're prepared for whatever it brings to you. :-) > > ----- > http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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