Guest guest Posted September 2, 1999 Report Share Posted September 2, 1999 If it comes up as a dead link, it's because the reader wasn't sufficiently willing, or honest while rubbing it. http://www.AAdeprogramming.com/statistics.html Apple I love it when you throw their twaddle right back in their own laps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 1999 Report Share Posted September 2, 1999 I started watching this cite back when you all were talking about the appropriateness of calling AA a cult. I think this letter evidences that it is indeed a cult; in that this poor dear (after 6 and 1/2 years) is still droning the same damn lines that she heard when she walked into the door of her first meeting. God forbid she actually learn to think for herself. Seems like the least she could have done was to try to put her thoughts into her own words. Oh, yes--that's not allowed. I remember going to meetings and purposely say, " I was thinking, " just to hear the rhetorical " oh, oh " response. Re: Funny letter >If it comes up as a dead link, it's because the >reader >wasn't sufficiently willing, or honest while rubbing it. >http://www.AAdeprogramming.com/statistics.html >Apple > >I love it when you throw their twaddle right back in their own laps. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/805 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 1999 Report Share Posted September 2, 1999 I started watching this cite back when you all were talking about the appropriateness of calling AA a cult. I think this letter evidences that it is indeed a cult; in that this poor dear (after 6 and 1/2 years) is still droning the same damn lines that she heard when she walked into the door of her first meeting. God forbid she actually learn to think for herself. Seems like the least she could have done was to try to put her thoughts into her own words. Oh, yes--that's not allowed. I remember going to meetings and purposely say, " I was thinking, " just to hear the rhetorical " oh, oh " response. Re: Funny letter >If it comes up as a dead link, it's because the >reader >wasn't sufficiently willing, or honest while rubbing it. >http://www.AAdeprogramming.com/statistics.html >Apple > >I love it when you throw their twaddle right back in their own laps. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/805 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 1999 Report Share Posted September 2, 1999 At 07:36 PM 9/2/99 -0700, AppleDTP@... wrote: >Hi list! >I got this letter and I thought you guys might like to read it too... >hee hee >apple It's actually your response that's funny... :-) > >> My name is alcholic / addict. Clean and sober for 6 1/2 yrs. >due to a >> loving God and the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. Out of >finger). And >it only connects to the informational page if the reader really and >truly >wants it to do so. If it comes up as a dead link, it's because the >reader >wasn't sufficiently willing, or honest while rubbing it. >http://www.AAdeprogramming.com/statistics.html >Apple What may not be funny that that may actually believe what you wrote, and when rubbing (or even clicking on) the link doesn't work, she may see this as evidence that she's not honest (something her sponsor surley tells her all the time anyway), and she needs to be even more vigilant about taking the steps, praying, going to meetings, etc. The self-doubt instilled by AA (for me, it added to and reinforced the self-doubt I already had) is incredible - " I'm wrong, so the rest of the world must be right. " ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 1999 Report Share Posted September 2, 1999 too wonderful for words! well done, apple. i'm laughing at 7 am j > Hi list! > I got this letter and I thought you guys might like to read it too... > hee hee > apple ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 1999 Report Share Posted September 3, 1999 Ben, I like what you wrote and I agree with it in spirit. There's one thing I want to comment on. It's my reaction to your second paragraph. I only have so much empathy to go around. I'm not wasting it on people who want to spend their lives protecting the person or organization that abuses them. Your heart is obviously in the right place, so I'm not saying this as a slam against you, and I hope it doesn't come across that way. It's more in support of Apple, her website, and the way she chooses to deal with AAs who challenge her. If there is any window or door in 's mind that is even a tiny crack open, I think the most beneficial thing any of us can do for her is try to shine a ray of reality-sunshine into it. If she has been hurt, it's by AA (probably among other abusers), not Apple. If she doesn't leave AA, she is choosing to continue allowing herself to be hurt. If is to recover, it will have to come from within . I was traumatized by 12 step treatment and AA; it sounds like you were hurt too. Somehow I, like you, found the resources within myself to work to overcome that. There are 5 or 6 billion people on this planet and lots of them die of starvation, torture, all kinds of horrific realities that make my trauma look like a picnic in the park. Still, it's real to me and I'm not going to pretend it shouldn't hurt, just because someone else's problems are worse. In 's case, or anyone else who has been through what you and I have because of the 12 steps, or any other abusive treatment, *we can't save them*. They have to find that courage inside themselves. The sad truth is, lots of people never will, because it can be a pretty painful process. OK. sorry if I'm ranting. Again, I want to emphasize that I agree with the spirit of what you wrote, Ben. But I support Apple and I trust her judgment in these matters. Judith > It's actually your response that's funny... :-) > What may not be funny that that may actually believe what you wrote, and when rubbing (or even clicking on) the link doesn't work, she may see this as evidence that she's not honest (something her sponsor surley tells her all the time anyway), and she needs to be even more vigilant about taking the steps, praying, going to meetings, etc.> > > The self-doubt instilled by AA (for me, it added to and reinforced the self-doubt I already had) is incredible - " I'm wrong, so the rest of the world must be right. " > ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 1999 Report Share Posted September 3, 1999 > When I started being a heretic....I was really fond of Al in.....Stuart Smally on Saturday Night Live. If you ever need a good laugh, rent " Stuart Saves His Family " . It's a great parody of 12-step thinking. > Oooh, I think I'll do that today as soon as I finish my work! thanks for the suggestion! j ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 1999 Report Share Posted September 3, 1999 AA is a wonderful vehicle for fostering self-doubt... It was a major shift for me when I decided " I'm going to trust my perceptions & feelings... " what much better way to live! Imagine an animal in the wild not trusting its perceptions!! It would be dead rather quickly wouldn't you say? Apple > The self-doubt instilled by AA (for me, it added to and reinforced the > self-doubt I already had) is incredible - " I'm wrong, so the rest of the > world must be right. " > ----- > http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 1999 Report Share Posted September 3, 1999 Soemtimes I forget how nauseating it is to listen to the 12-step rap. Your response went right over poor 's head I think. Great response Apple! When I started being a heretic....I was really fond of Al in. .....Stuart Smally on Saturday Night Live. If you ever need a good laugh, rent " Stuart Saves His Family " . It's a great parody of 12-step thinking. Rebekah >Hi list! >I got this letter and I thought you guys might like to read it too... >hee hee >apple > >> My name is alcholic / addict. Clean and sober for 6 1/2 yrs. >due to a >> loving God and the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. (Blah blah blah) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 1999 Report Share Posted September 3, 1999 Apple, I have to say this really struck a cord with me. I got some great therapy from women counselors who helped me begin to trust my feelings, and was also involved in a spiritual practice that encouraged being alone and seeking my own answers. This is when I got to the point that the Program and it's rhetoric became unbearable. It went against everything I believed. I am so grateful I was able to get the hell out of there. I feel like I was deprogrammed from a cult. It was terrific to come across your site. Rebekah ---------- >From: AppleDTP@... >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Funny letter >Date: Fri, Sep 3, 1999, 7:12 AM > >AA is a wonderful vehicle for fostering self-doubt... It was a major >shift for me when I decided " I'm going to trust my perceptions & >feelings... " what much better way to live! >Imagine an animal in the wild not trusting its perceptions!! It would >be dead rather quickly wouldn't you say? >Apple > > >> The self-doubt instilled by AA (for me, it added to and reinforced >the >> self-doubt I already had) is incredible - " I'm wrong, so the rest of >the >> world must be right. " >> ----- >> http://listen.to/benbradley > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/805 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 1999 Report Share Posted September 3, 1999 I believe that all of us were pummelled with messages telling us not to trust our perceptions, from day one. As a little kid... " I'm full " ... parent: " Eat it anyway... " From the TV commercials: " you're fat, your hair is listless and you smell bad " From influential books found in many motel room dressers " you are a sinner... A SINNER " And so on... Apple > Apple, I have to say this really struck a cord with me. > I got some great therapy from women counselors who helped me begin to trust > my feelings, and was also involved in a spiritual practice that encouraged > being alone and seeking my own answers. > > This is when I got to the point that the Program and it's rhetoric became > unbearable. It went against everything I believed. I am so grateful I was > able to get the hell out of there. I feel like I was deprogrammed from a > cult. > > It was terrific to come across your site. Rebekah > ---------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 1999 Report Share Posted September 3, 1999 I believe that all of us were pummelled with messages telling us not to trust our perceptions, from day one. As a little kid... " I'm full " ... parent: " Eat it anyway... " From the TV commercials: " you're fat, your hair is listless and you smell bad " From influential books found in many motel room dressers " you are a sinner... A SINNER " And so on... Apple > Apple, I have to say this really struck a cord with me. > I got some great therapy from women counselors who helped me begin to trust > my feelings, and was also involved in a spiritual practice that encouraged > being alone and seeking my own answers. > > This is when I got to the point that the Program and it's rhetoric became > unbearable. It went against everything I believed. I am so grateful I was > able to get the hell out of there. I feel like I was deprogrammed from a > cult. > > It was terrific to come across your site. Rebekah > ---------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 1999 Report Share Posted September 3, 1999 At 07:03 AM 9/3/99 PDT, Judith Stillwater wrote: >Ben, I like what you wrote and I agree with it in spirit. There's one thing >I want to comment on. It's my reaction to your second paragraph. > >I only have so much empathy to go around. Wait a sec, I think you may have misinterpreted something or read more into it than what I was trying to say. It was just an observation (and commentary) about a human being that has been turned into a robot, and how this is a sad situation. > I'm not wasting it on people who >want to spend their lives protecting the person or organization that abuses >them. Your heart is obviously in the right place, so I'm not saying this as >a slam against you, and I hope it doesn't come across that way. It's more >in support of Apple, her website, and the way she chooses to deal with AAs >who challenge her. I hope you and Apple weren't reading this as criticism of the response - I likewise support Apple and her response to the letter. During the last several years of going to AA meetings I said many sarcastic things, hoping to find someone who could hear what I was really saying (with almost no luck those who could hear me had already quit meetings). >If there is any window or door in 's mind that is even a tiny crack >open, I think the most beneficial thing any of us can do for her is try to >shine a ray of reality-sunshine into it. If she has been hurt, it's by AA >(probably among other abusers), not Apple. If she doesn't leave AA, she is >choosing to continue allowing herself to be hurt. If is to recover, it >will have to come from within . > >I was traumatized by 12 step treatment and AA; it sounds like you were hurt >too. Somehow I, like you, found the resources within myself to work to >overcome that. There are 5 or 6 billion people on this planet and lots of >them die of starvation, torture, all kinds of horrific realities that make >my trauma look like a picnic in the park. Still, it's real to me and I'm >not going to pretend it shouldn't hurt, just because someone else's problems >are worse. I'm convinced that AA has prompted many people to suicide, and probably some to murder. So in some cases it CAN be as bad. >In 's case, or anyone else who has been through what you and I have >because of the 12 steps, or any other abusive treatment, *we can't save >them*. They have to find that courage inside themselves. The sad truth is, >lots of people never will, because it can be a pretty painful process. > >OK. sorry if I'm ranting. Again, I want to emphasize that I agree with the >spirit of what you wrote, Ben. But I support Apple and I trust her judgment >in these matters. > >Judith It seems you're implying I don't support Apple and I don't trust her judgement. I don't see how what I wrote implies that. If it does, can you tell me what it is? Again, I was observing that here's a person () who is so brainwashed that she will read a statement that's obviously absurd, but she may take it seriously. > > >> It's actually your response that's funny... :-) > >> What may not be funny that that may actually believe what you >wrote, and when rubbing (or even clicking on) the link doesn't work, she may >see this as evidence that she's not honest (something her sponsor surley >tells her all the time anyway), and she needs to be even more vigilant about >taking the steps, praying, going to meetings, etc.> >> >> The self-doubt instilled by AA (for me, it added to and reinforced the >self-doubt I already had) is incredible - " I'm wrong, so the rest of the >world must be right. " > ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 1999 Report Share Posted September 3, 1999 At 07:03 AM 9/3/99 PDT, Judith Stillwater wrote: >Ben, I like what you wrote and I agree with it in spirit. There's one thing >I want to comment on. It's my reaction to your second paragraph. > >I only have so much empathy to go around. Wait a sec, I think you may have misinterpreted something or read more into it than what I was trying to say. It was just an observation (and commentary) about a human being that has been turned into a robot, and how this is a sad situation. > I'm not wasting it on people who >want to spend their lives protecting the person or organization that abuses >them. Your heart is obviously in the right place, so I'm not saying this as >a slam against you, and I hope it doesn't come across that way. It's more >in support of Apple, her website, and the way she chooses to deal with AAs >who challenge her. I hope you and Apple weren't reading this as criticism of the response - I likewise support Apple and her response to the letter. During the last several years of going to AA meetings I said many sarcastic things, hoping to find someone who could hear what I was really saying (with almost no luck those who could hear me had already quit meetings). >If there is any window or door in 's mind that is even a tiny crack >open, I think the most beneficial thing any of us can do for her is try to >shine a ray of reality-sunshine into it. If she has been hurt, it's by AA >(probably among other abusers), not Apple. If she doesn't leave AA, she is >choosing to continue allowing herself to be hurt. If is to recover, it >will have to come from within . > >I was traumatized by 12 step treatment and AA; it sounds like you were hurt >too. Somehow I, like you, found the resources within myself to work to >overcome that. There are 5 or 6 billion people on this planet and lots of >them die of starvation, torture, all kinds of horrific realities that make >my trauma look like a picnic in the park. Still, it's real to me and I'm >not going to pretend it shouldn't hurt, just because someone else's problems >are worse. I'm convinced that AA has prompted many people to suicide, and probably some to murder. So in some cases it CAN be as bad. >In 's case, or anyone else who has been through what you and I have >because of the 12 steps, or any other abusive treatment, *we can't save >them*. They have to find that courage inside themselves. The sad truth is, >lots of people never will, because it can be a pretty painful process. > >OK. sorry if I'm ranting. Again, I want to emphasize that I agree with the >spirit of what you wrote, Ben. But I support Apple and I trust her judgment >in these matters. > >Judith It seems you're implying I don't support Apple and I don't trust her judgement. I don't see how what I wrote implies that. If it does, can you tell me what it is? Again, I was observing that here's a person () who is so brainwashed that she will read a statement that's obviously absurd, but she may take it seriously. > > >> It's actually your response that's funny... :-) > >> What may not be funny that that may actually believe what you >wrote, and when rubbing (or even clicking on) the link doesn't work, she may >see this as evidence that she's not honest (something her sponsor surley >tells her all the time anyway), and she needs to be even more vigilant about >taking the steps, praying, going to meetings, etc.> >> >> The self-doubt instilled by AA (for me, it added to and reinforced the >self-doubt I already had) is incredible - " I'm wrong, so the rest of the >world must be right. " > ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 1999 Report Share Posted September 3, 1999 > It seems you're implying I don't support Apple and I don't trust her judgement. I don't see how what I wrote implies that. If it does, can you tell me what it is?> As I said at the beginning of what I wrote, it was *my reaction.* Me. Talking about myself. It was not my intention to accuse you, directly or indirectly, of being unsupportive. As I also said, several times, I agree with the spirit of what you wrote. Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 1999 Report Share Posted September 3, 1999 > It seems you're implying I don't support Apple and I don't trust her judgement. I don't see how what I wrote implies that. If it does, can you tell me what it is?> As I said at the beginning of what I wrote, it was *my reaction.* Me. Talking about myself. It was not my intention to accuse you, directly or indirectly, of being unsupportive. As I also said, several times, I agree with the spirit of what you wrote. Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 1999 Report Share Posted September 3, 1999 Ben and Apple: This reply of mine is really inadequate. I interpreted and responded to what Ben wrote based on my own feelings, rather than focusing on Ben's message. I apologize for giving the impression that I was accusing Ben of being unsupportive. Judith > > > > It seems you're implying I don't support Apple and I don't trust her > judgement. I don't see how what I wrote implies that. If it does, can you > tell me what it is?> > > As I said at the beginning of what I wrote, it was *my reaction.* Me. > Talking about myself. It was not my intention to accuse you, directly or > indirectly, of being unsupportive. As I also said, several times, I agree > with the spirit of what you wrote. > > Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 1999 Report Share Posted September 4, 1999 Dear Jero: Your message didn't make it. Are you a new member? Welcome to 12-step-free. Tell us about yourself. Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 1999 Report Share Posted September 4, 1999 Dear Jero: Your message didn't make it. Are you a new member? Welcome to 12-step-free. Tell us about yourself. Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 1999 Report Share Posted September 4, 1999 Ben, I think there may have been a misinterpretation on Judith's part (Judith ?). By the way, didn't write back to me. She may still be rubbing her screen. Apple > At 07:03 AM 9/3/99 PDT, Judith Stillwater wrote: > >Ben, I like what you wrote and I agree with it in spirit. There's one thing > >I want to comment on. It's my reaction to your second paragraph. > > > >I only have so much empathy to go around. > > Wait a sec, I think you may have misinterpreted something or read more > into it than what I was trying to say. It was just an observation (and > commentary) about a human being that has been turned into a robot, and how > this is a sad situation. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 1999 Report Share Posted September 4, 1999 Hey, hope ya'll don't mind me interjecting a tid-bit. I just read a little bit about some injusice (understatement). So if you don't mind pumpjet and I (don't want to give my name) were recanting. Believe it or not. These are for Rupley's. O.k.? At a treatment center I was put down in the basement for over an hour alone with a gay woman big (please don't misunderstand there wonderful gay people in the world so Iam not gay-bashing) who wanted to put my head through a wall and verbally threatened me and made gestures of how she was going to attack me. I was later put in the center of the room with others around me and was taunted and told I had to say I was an alcoholic. I said I wasn't that I had lost a baby(4mos.preg.) and was raped and sodomized by my husband and was going thru alot of depression I was in the wrong place.... The first time I finally had a sexual relationship after all of that nightmare the following morning my boyfriend had a large rock thrown through is front window of his thunderbird. This was in 89. A guy said in AA that he had done it because he had designs on me.Needless to say that was the start of my wonderful beginnings in the AA program. The biggest and best step (and believe me I was what you call a heavy hitter. People listened and clapped you know the bulls.) when I finally said I want a change. There has to be a better way. And guess what there is. I went to therapy in the 80's and was told repeatedly that I wasn't an alcoholic. Just a person with low self esteem and a slight depression. Told I was a miracle and I was normal......I didn't believe the professionals and continued the game.....I can tell you that my life was hell every single time I walked into a club. Because if you stay around people that are always putting someone down that isnot normal. They are truly sic,controlling,manipulative people(noteverysingleone)thatare not happy people. Sponsors--well--very few do it for compassion they do for the adoration and glory. Heady stuff if you've ever seen the ones so full of ego. Where's the love? I say out of the program and into the world according to your on dictates and conscious. Oh, to end this I ended up with 5-stitches in my head (scalp) and an gun being clicked at me. It turned out to be an empty gun.. I only want to see that kind of stuff in the movies. Stalking--look it's a great day for even writer's who think they have a story to hound you. Mo Mo's here think they can get away with that cause it's the land of zion. Weird stuff. Oh, by the way Iam not from here and catholic to boot but all my family on a certain side are (iam trying to be nondescript about them). The pride of this religion is so stuck in the program and the cult feel is scary....Enough cause it does'nt matter. What matters is a good life and the freedom to express yourself and live your life the way it should be. So much for brief. Can you guess what I do for a living? Actress in a union.............Democrat to boot.. Am I creating waves? Good! Thank God for Apple. NO need to e-mail me just thanx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 1999 Report Share Posted September 8, 1999 Don't think . . it was your best thinking that got you here! What the hell does that mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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