Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hi , I think one of the best ways to debunk AA is to take their self serving, self protecting members to the mat and let people see the debate and drawn their own conclusions. The AA way is carried by people and is not going to go away on it's own. Ignoring the carriers and letting it slide so they can go there way is exactly what has laid the basis for the monstrously bloated trojan horse AA now is. Indifference, membership or endorsement is what they seek. I'd rather be a bee in their bonnet. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In no way do I mean I do not think you capable of handling this guy, but why bother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 At 07:34 PM 8/12/99 +0900, you wrote: >Hi , > >I think one of the best ways to debunk AA is to take their self serving, >self protecting members to the mat and let people see the debate and >drawn their own conclusions. The AA way is carried by people and is not >going to go away on it's own. Ignoring the carriers and letting it slide >so they can go there way is exactly what has laid the basis for the >monstrously bloated trojan horse AA now is. Indifference, membership or >endorsement is what they seek. I'd rather be a bee in their bonnet. > > Yes, I go along with this too. While I still maintain that it isn't necessary to respond to the emailed criticisms, dissecting those criticisms and refuting their logic (I'm being kind) is useful for people to read if they are seeking to de-program themselves or " leave the fold " or whatever. What I really mean is that it isn't necessary to respond to the angry AA members' emails just because they don't get it and are angry and accusing. That really IS their problem. But if a response can be used to help others, then it is a useful thing. Obviously. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 please REmove me from this list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Joe Berenbaum wrote: > At 07:34 PM 8/12/99 +0900, you wrote: > >Hi , > > > >I think one of the best ways to debunk AA is to take their self serving, > >self protecting members to the mat and let people see the debate and > >drawn their own conclusions. The AA way is carried by people and is not > >going to go away on it's own. Ignoring the carriers and letting it slide > >so they can go there way is exactly what has laid the basis for the > >monstrously bloated trojan horse AA now is. Indifference, membership or > >endorsement is what they seek. I'd rather be a bee in their bonnet. > > > > > > Yes, I go along with this too. While I still maintain that it isn't > necessary to respond to the emailed criticisms, dissecting those criticisms > and refuting their logic (I'm being kind) is useful for people to read if > they are seeking to de-program themselves or " leave the fold " or whatever. > What I really mean is that it isn't necessary to respond to the angry AA > members' emails just because they don't get it and are angry and accusing. > That really IS their problem. But if a response can be used to help others, > then it is a useful thing. Obviously. > > Joe Berenbaum > mailto:joe-b@... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're > satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate > of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 joe-b@... writes: > Yes, I go along with this too. While I still maintain that it isn't > necessary to respond to the emailed criticisms, dissecting those criticisms > and refuting their logic (I'm being kind) is useful for people to read if > they are seeking to de-program themselves or " leave the fold " or whatever. Why not instead of responding privately to these jerks, take time to carefully and logically tear apart their arguments and post both the letter and the response on the web page? " AA responds to AA Deprogramming " or some such? If nothing else, it would provide a little comic relief. Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 joe-b@... writes: > Yes, I go along with this too. While I still maintain that it isn't > necessary to respond to the emailed criticisms, dissecting those criticisms > and refuting their logic (I'm being kind) is useful for people to read if > they are seeking to de-program themselves or " leave the fold " or whatever. Why not instead of responding privately to these jerks, take time to carefully and logically tear apart their arguments and post both the letter and the response on the web page? " AA responds to AA Deprogramming " or some such? If nothing else, it would provide a little comic relief. Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 joe-b@... writes: > Yes, I go along with this too. While I still maintain that it isn't > necessary to respond to the emailed criticisms, dissecting those criticisms > and refuting their logic (I'm being kind) is useful for people to read if > they are seeking to de-program themselves or " leave the fold " or whatever. Why not instead of responding privately to these jerks, take time to carefully and logically tear apart their arguments and post both the letter and the response on the web page? " AA responds to AA Deprogramming " or some such? If nothing else, it would provide a little comic relief. Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hi ; AA has so many Handy, Dandy escape hatches built in that getting one to the mat or even near it is veritably impossible. So I don't drink and don't go to AA, then of course I didn't have the disease or mine is an isolated event or I am on a dry drunk, or or or and pay your money and take your choice. It's rather like arguing with a TV Newsman, where any communication is one way. The History Channel on TV, even perpetuates Myths that have been part of our understanding and were debunked years ago, yet writing them emails on their website telling them that The WW one footage they are showing of the battle of The Somme was actually filmed in New Jersey and Montreal province in Canada, doesn't deter them one iota. I'll bet you've even seen the footage I refer to, where guys start into no mans land and several fall back in the trench. Notice the soldiers have no packs, some no rifles, but it is old hollwood newsreel footage. They couldn't get the real thing back from France quickly enough in those days so they used those two sites to simulate footage and sold it as the real thing. It now has replaced the real thing. I get a form letter saying they are glad I like their programs. Not much to argue with there. The AA guy is merely playing a game he cannot lose. Even the most liberal reading of what the guy says is that Apple is a " Girl " (To quote him) with a grudge over an " Unfortunate incident " and needs therapy not for the rape, but for the grudge. Just a Miscreant. The only way I can see to possibly communicate with this guy is take that offensive line and attack, stray to nothing else, Define The Playing Field, sticking to that one point for and entire email and use it to show that AA has made him Anti Women and keep on it not answering any subject change. Get him out of his rythum, out of his realm of pat answers, if he dinies it was AA teaching, then was he a MAMA's boy where his mother thought no woman good enough for him, or did he come to that conclusion himself? What does his wife think of his stinkin' attitude? Oh no wife?, I can understand that with your attitude. etc. Forcing him to concede one point, just run his AA ways right back at him, don't let the bastard breathe. Stick with one issue that's not directly related to alcohol, but part of cult thinking, force him to justify, justify, justify, till even he sees the justifications are bullshit. But one must have the initiative to do this. Must act out, rather than react. The more he tries to justify and change the subject, the more you stick it to him on the original point. The object being to force him to concede the point or put his racket on the ground. Have to be willing to come to the net and concede the lob as a non play. Every lob is " Out " Or make him think your arms reach both lines and a passing shot is futile. That's the only possibility I see of getting anything from this guy except humor and irritation. I personalize offense like this guy deals out and I'd try to make his blood pressure go up everytime he saw my address in his inbox. Like to be able to make him grind all his gold caps off, but that's too much to hope for. Once he is out of his realm of pat AA answers and is forced to recognize his behavior in regards to women stinks, then you could talk about another point. Like selling, get him saying yes, regardless what it takes. My guess is about three exchanges and he'll quit. As long as he's not allowed the initiative. If that's what you mean by " Taking them to the mat " , go for it! Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:34:26 +0900 Organization: CBK Int'l Inc. To: " 12-step-freeegroups " <12-step-freeegroups> Subject: why bother > Hi , > > I think one of the best ways to debunk AA is to take their self serving, > self protecting members to the mat and let people see the debate and > drawn their own conclusions. The AA way is carried by people and is not > going to go away on it's own. Ignoring the carriers and letting it slide > so they can go there way is exactly what has laid the basis for the > monstrously bloated trojan horse AA now is. Indifference, membership or > endorsement is what they seek. I'd rather be a bee in their bonnet. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > In no way do I mean I do not think you capable of handling this > guy, but why bother? > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're > satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate > of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hi ; AA has so many Handy, Dandy escape hatches built in that getting one to the mat or even near it is veritably impossible. So I don't drink and don't go to AA, then of course I didn't have the disease or mine is an isolated event or I am on a dry drunk, or or or and pay your money and take your choice. It's rather like arguing with a TV Newsman, where any communication is one way. The History Channel on TV, even perpetuates Myths that have been part of our understanding and were debunked years ago, yet writing them emails on their website telling them that The WW one footage they are showing of the battle of The Somme was actually filmed in New Jersey and Montreal province in Canada, doesn't deter them one iota. I'll bet you've even seen the footage I refer to, where guys start into no mans land and several fall back in the trench. Notice the soldiers have no packs, some no rifles, but it is old hollwood newsreel footage. They couldn't get the real thing back from France quickly enough in those days so they used those two sites to simulate footage and sold it as the real thing. It now has replaced the real thing. I get a form letter saying they are glad I like their programs. Not much to argue with there. The AA guy is merely playing a game he cannot lose. Even the most liberal reading of what the guy says is that Apple is a " Girl " (To quote him) with a grudge over an " Unfortunate incident " and needs therapy not for the rape, but for the grudge. Just a Miscreant. The only way I can see to possibly communicate with this guy is take that offensive line and attack, stray to nothing else, Define The Playing Field, sticking to that one point for and entire email and use it to show that AA has made him Anti Women and keep on it not answering any subject change. Get him out of his rythum, out of his realm of pat answers, if he dinies it was AA teaching, then was he a MAMA's boy where his mother thought no woman good enough for him, or did he come to that conclusion himself? What does his wife think of his stinkin' attitude? Oh no wife?, I can understand that with your attitude. etc. Forcing him to concede one point, just run his AA ways right back at him, don't let the bastard breathe. Stick with one issue that's not directly related to alcohol, but part of cult thinking, force him to justify, justify, justify, till even he sees the justifications are bullshit. But one must have the initiative to do this. Must act out, rather than react. The more he tries to justify and change the subject, the more you stick it to him on the original point. The object being to force him to concede the point or put his racket on the ground. Have to be willing to come to the net and concede the lob as a non play. Every lob is " Out " Or make him think your arms reach both lines and a passing shot is futile. That's the only possibility I see of getting anything from this guy except humor and irritation. I personalize offense like this guy deals out and I'd try to make his blood pressure go up everytime he saw my address in his inbox. Like to be able to make him grind all his gold caps off, but that's too much to hope for. Once he is out of his realm of pat AA answers and is forced to recognize his behavior in regards to women stinks, then you could talk about another point. Like selling, get him saying yes, regardless what it takes. My guess is about three exchanges and he'll quit. As long as he's not allowed the initiative. If that's what you mean by " Taking them to the mat " , go for it! Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:34:26 +0900 Organization: CBK Int'l Inc. To: " 12-step-freeegroups " <12-step-freeegroups> Subject: why bother > Hi , > > I think one of the best ways to debunk AA is to take their self serving, > self protecting members to the mat and let people see the debate and > drawn their own conclusions. The AA way is carried by people and is not > going to go away on it's own. Ignoring the carriers and letting it slide > so they can go there way is exactly what has laid the basis for the > monstrously bloated trojan horse AA now is. Indifference, membership or > endorsement is what they seek. I'd rather be a bee in their bonnet. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > In no way do I mean I do not think you capable of handling this > guy, but why bother? > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're > satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate > of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hi ; AA has so many Handy, Dandy escape hatches built in that getting one to the mat or even near it is veritably impossible. So I don't drink and don't go to AA, then of course I didn't have the disease or mine is an isolated event or I am on a dry drunk, or or or and pay your money and take your choice. It's rather like arguing with a TV Newsman, where any communication is one way. The History Channel on TV, even perpetuates Myths that have been part of our understanding and were debunked years ago, yet writing them emails on their website telling them that The WW one footage they are showing of the battle of The Somme was actually filmed in New Jersey and Montreal province in Canada, doesn't deter them one iota. I'll bet you've even seen the footage I refer to, where guys start into no mans land and several fall back in the trench. Notice the soldiers have no packs, some no rifles, but it is old hollwood newsreel footage. They couldn't get the real thing back from France quickly enough in those days so they used those two sites to simulate footage and sold it as the real thing. It now has replaced the real thing. I get a form letter saying they are glad I like their programs. Not much to argue with there. The AA guy is merely playing a game he cannot lose. Even the most liberal reading of what the guy says is that Apple is a " Girl " (To quote him) with a grudge over an " Unfortunate incident " and needs therapy not for the rape, but for the grudge. Just a Miscreant. The only way I can see to possibly communicate with this guy is take that offensive line and attack, stray to nothing else, Define The Playing Field, sticking to that one point for and entire email and use it to show that AA has made him Anti Women and keep on it not answering any subject change. Get him out of his rythum, out of his realm of pat answers, if he dinies it was AA teaching, then was he a MAMA's boy where his mother thought no woman good enough for him, or did he come to that conclusion himself? What does his wife think of his stinkin' attitude? Oh no wife?, I can understand that with your attitude. etc. Forcing him to concede one point, just run his AA ways right back at him, don't let the bastard breathe. Stick with one issue that's not directly related to alcohol, but part of cult thinking, force him to justify, justify, justify, till even he sees the justifications are bullshit. But one must have the initiative to do this. Must act out, rather than react. The more he tries to justify and change the subject, the more you stick it to him on the original point. The object being to force him to concede the point or put his racket on the ground. Have to be willing to come to the net and concede the lob as a non play. Every lob is " Out " Or make him think your arms reach both lines and a passing shot is futile. That's the only possibility I see of getting anything from this guy except humor and irritation. I personalize offense like this guy deals out and I'd try to make his blood pressure go up everytime he saw my address in his inbox. Like to be able to make him grind all his gold caps off, but that's too much to hope for. Once he is out of his realm of pat AA answers and is forced to recognize his behavior in regards to women stinks, then you could talk about another point. Like selling, get him saying yes, regardless what it takes. My guess is about three exchanges and he'll quit. As long as he's not allowed the initiative. If that's what you mean by " Taking them to the mat " , go for it! Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:34:26 +0900 Organization: CBK Int'l Inc. To: " 12-step-freeegroups " <12-step-freeegroups> Subject: why bother > Hi , > > I think one of the best ways to debunk AA is to take their self serving, > self protecting members to the mat and let people see the debate and > drawn their own conclusions. The AA way is carried by people and is not > going to go away on it's own. Ignoring the carriers and letting it slide > so they can go there way is exactly what has laid the basis for the > monstrously bloated trojan horse AA now is. Indifference, membership or > endorsement is what they seek. I'd rather be a bee in their bonnet. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > In no way do I mean I do not think you capable of handling this > guy, but why bother? > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're > satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate > of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hey Apple, How about a bunch of really tight, rational, standardized, non reactive replies that you can fire off at a moments notice? I do enjoy the debunking though. saes@... wrote: > > joe-b@... writes: > > > Yes, I go along with this too. While I still maintain that it isn't > > necessary to respond to the emailed criticisms, dissecting those criticisms > > and refuting their logic (I'm being kind) is useful for people to read if > > they are seeking to de-program themselves or " leave the fold " or whatever. > > Why not instead of responding privately to these jerks, take time to > carefully and logically tear apart their arguments and post both the letter > and the response on the web page? " AA responds to AA Deprogramming " or some > such? > > If nothing else, it would provide a little comic relief. > > Regards, > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Listen to Britany spears and more top artists > now at audiohighway.com! > http://clickhere./click/395 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hey Apple, How about a bunch of really tight, rational, standardized, non reactive replies that you can fire off at a moments notice? I do enjoy the debunking though. saes@... wrote: > > joe-b@... writes: > > > Yes, I go along with this too. While I still maintain that it isn't > > necessary to respond to the emailed criticisms, dissecting those criticisms > > and refuting their logic (I'm being kind) is useful for people to read if > > they are seeking to de-program themselves or " leave the fold " or whatever. > > Why not instead of responding privately to these jerks, take time to > carefully and logically tear apart their arguments and post both the letter > and the response on the web page? " AA responds to AA Deprogramming " or some > such? > > If nothing else, it would provide a little comic relief. > > Regards, > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Listen to Britany spears and more top artists > now at audiohighway.com! > http://clickhere./click/395 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hey Apple, How about a bunch of really tight, rational, standardized, non reactive replies that you can fire off at a moments notice? I do enjoy the debunking though. saes@... wrote: > > joe-b@... writes: > > > Yes, I go along with this too. While I still maintain that it isn't > > necessary to respond to the emailed criticisms, dissecting those criticisms > > and refuting their logic (I'm being kind) is useful for people to read if > > they are seeking to de-program themselves or " leave the fold " or whatever. > > Why not instead of responding privately to these jerks, take time to > carefully and logically tear apart their arguments and post both the letter > and the response on the web page? " AA responds to AA Deprogramming " or some > such? > > If nothing else, it would provide a little comic relief. > > Regards, > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Listen to Britany spears and more top artists > now at audiohighway.com! > http://clickhere./click/395 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hi , I liked Your description of what I mean by taking him to the mat. It is quite accurate. Steppers who profess the validity of the AA dogma have only the limits of the BB and other literature to defend their position when it gets down to " the mat " . Take them there with point blank questions etc. Anything else they bring up to justify themselves or put you down is beside the point. It is the program we want to debate for all to see. Sitting a BB in a chair for debate would be kind of pointless. I left AA on my own and was just tooling along in my life until last year when out of curiosity I started to explore the present day recovery scene over the net. I was pleasantly surprised to find the seeds of revolution planted paving the way for more sensible and rational ways of dealing with substance dependence. It wasn't until actually participating in 12 step free and reading some other sites like AA deprog. and even some of RR stuff that it occurred to me that this is in a way a revolution against the steppism establishment. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7358 > Hi ; > > AA has so many Handy, Dandy escape hatches built in that > getting one to the mat or even near it is veritably impossible. So I > don't drink and don't go to AA, then of course I didn't have the > disease or mine is an isolated event or I am on a dry drunk, or or or > and pay your money and take your choice. It's rather like arguing > with a TV Newsman, where any communication is one way. The > History Channel on TV, even perpetuates Myths that have been > part of our understanding and were debunked years ago, yet writing > them emails on their website telling them that The WW one > footage they are showing of the battle of The Somme was actually > filmed in New Jersey and Montreal province in Canada, doesn't > deter them one iota. I'll bet you've even seen the footage I refer to, > where guys start into no mans land and several fall back in the > trench. Notice the soldiers have no packs, some no rifles, but it is > old hollwood newsreel footage. They couldn't get the real thing > back from France quickly enough in those days so they used > those two sites to simulate footage and sold it as the real thing. It > now has replaced the real thing. > > I get a form letter saying they are glad I like their programs. Not > much to argue with there. > > The AA guy is merely playing a game he cannot lose. Even the > most liberal reading of what the guy says is that Apple is a > " Girl " (To quote him) with a grudge over an " Unfortunate incident " > and needs therapy not for the rape, but for the grudge. Just a > Miscreant. > > The only way I can see to possibly communicate with this guy is > take that offensive line and attack, stray to nothing else, Define The > Playing Field, sticking to that one point for and entire email and > use it to show that AA has made him Anti Women and keep on it > not answering any subject change. Get him out of his rythum, out > of his realm of pat answers, if he dinies it was AA teaching, then > was he a MAMA's boy where his mother thought no woman good > enough for him, or did he come to that conclusion himself? What > does his wife think of his stinkin' attitude? Oh no wife?, I can > understand that with your attitude. etc. Forcing him to concede > one point, just run his AA ways right back at him, don't let the > bastard breathe. Stick with one issue that's not directly related to > alcohol, but part of cult thinking, force him to justify, justify, justify, > till even he sees the justifications are bullshit. But one must have > the initiative to do this. Must act out, rather than react. The more > he tries to justify and change the subject, the more you stick it to > him on the original point. The object being to force him to concede > the point or put his racket on the ground. Have to be willing to > come to the net and concede the lob as a non play. Every lob is > " Out " Or make him think your arms reach both lines and a > passing shot is futile. > > That's the only possibility I see of getting anything from this guy > except humor and irritation. I personalize offense like this guy > deals out and I'd try to make his blood pressure go up everytime he > saw my address in his inbox. Like to be able to make him grind all > his gold caps off, but that's too much to hope for. Once he is out > of his realm of pat AA answers and is forced to recognize his > behavior in regards to women stinks, then you could talk about > another point. Like selling, get him saying yes, regardless what it > takes. > > My guess is about three exchanges and he'll quit. As long as he's > not allowed the initiative. > > If that's what you mean by " Taking them to the mat " , go for it! > > > > > > Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups > Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:34:26 +0900 > > Organization: CBK Int'l Inc. > To: " 12-step-freeegroups " <12-step-freeegroups> > Subject: why bother > > > Hi , > > > > I think one of the best ways to debunk AA is to take their self serving, > > self protecting members to the mat and let people see the debate and > > drawn their own conclusions. The AA way is carried by people and is not > > going to go away on it's own. Ignoring the carriers and letting it slide > > so they can go there way is exactly what has laid the basis for the > > monstrously bloated trojan horse AA now is. Indifference, membership or > > endorsement is what they seek. I'd rather be a bee in their bonnet. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > In no way do I mean I do not think you capable of handling this > > guy, but why bother? > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hi , I liked Your description of what I mean by taking him to the mat. It is quite accurate. Steppers who profess the validity of the AA dogma have only the limits of the BB and other literature to defend their position when it gets down to " the mat " . Take them there with point blank questions etc. Anything else they bring up to justify themselves or put you down is beside the point. It is the program we want to debate for all to see. Sitting a BB in a chair for debate would be kind of pointless. I left AA on my own and was just tooling along in my life until last year when out of curiosity I started to explore the present day recovery scene over the net. I was pleasantly surprised to find the seeds of revolution planted paving the way for more sensible and rational ways of dealing with substance dependence. It wasn't until actually participating in 12 step free and reading some other sites like AA deprog. and even some of RR stuff that it occurred to me that this is in a way a revolution against the steppism establishment. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7358 > Hi ; > > AA has so many Handy, Dandy escape hatches built in that > getting one to the mat or even near it is veritably impossible. So I > don't drink and don't go to AA, then of course I didn't have the > disease or mine is an isolated event or I am on a dry drunk, or or or > and pay your money and take your choice. It's rather like arguing > with a TV Newsman, where any communication is one way. The > History Channel on TV, even perpetuates Myths that have been > part of our understanding and were debunked years ago, yet writing > them emails on their website telling them that The WW one > footage they are showing of the battle of The Somme was actually > filmed in New Jersey and Montreal province in Canada, doesn't > deter them one iota. I'll bet you've even seen the footage I refer to, > where guys start into no mans land and several fall back in the > trench. Notice the soldiers have no packs, some no rifles, but it is > old hollwood newsreel footage. They couldn't get the real thing > back from France quickly enough in those days so they used > those two sites to simulate footage and sold it as the real thing. It > now has replaced the real thing. > > I get a form letter saying they are glad I like their programs. Not > much to argue with there. > > The AA guy is merely playing a game he cannot lose. Even the > most liberal reading of what the guy says is that Apple is a > " Girl " (To quote him) with a grudge over an " Unfortunate incident " > and needs therapy not for the rape, but for the grudge. Just a > Miscreant. > > The only way I can see to possibly communicate with this guy is > take that offensive line and attack, stray to nothing else, Define The > Playing Field, sticking to that one point for and entire email and > use it to show that AA has made him Anti Women and keep on it > not answering any subject change. Get him out of his rythum, out > of his realm of pat answers, if he dinies it was AA teaching, then > was he a MAMA's boy where his mother thought no woman good > enough for him, or did he come to that conclusion himself? What > does his wife think of his stinkin' attitude? Oh no wife?, I can > understand that with your attitude. etc. Forcing him to concede > one point, just run his AA ways right back at him, don't let the > bastard breathe. Stick with one issue that's not directly related to > alcohol, but part of cult thinking, force him to justify, justify, justify, > till even he sees the justifications are bullshit. But one must have > the initiative to do this. Must act out, rather than react. The more > he tries to justify and change the subject, the more you stick it to > him on the original point. The object being to force him to concede > the point or put his racket on the ground. Have to be willing to > come to the net and concede the lob as a non play. Every lob is > " Out " Or make him think your arms reach both lines and a > passing shot is futile. > > That's the only possibility I see of getting anything from this guy > except humor and irritation. I personalize offense like this guy > deals out and I'd try to make his blood pressure go up everytime he > saw my address in his inbox. Like to be able to make him grind all > his gold caps off, but that's too much to hope for. Once he is out > of his realm of pat AA answers and is forced to recognize his > behavior in regards to women stinks, then you could talk about > another point. Like selling, get him saying yes, regardless what it > takes. > > My guess is about three exchanges and he'll quit. As long as he's > not allowed the initiative. > > If that's what you mean by " Taking them to the mat " , go for it! > > > > > > Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups > Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:34:26 +0900 > > Organization: CBK Int'l Inc. > To: " 12-step-freeegroups " <12-step-freeegroups> > Subject: why bother > > > Hi , > > > > I think one of the best ways to debunk AA is to take their self serving, > > self protecting members to the mat and let people see the debate and > > drawn their own conclusions. The AA way is carried by people and is not > > going to go away on it's own. Ignoring the carriers and letting it slide > > so they can go there way is exactly what has laid the basis for the > > monstrously bloated trojan horse AA now is. Indifference, membership or > > endorsement is what they seek. I'd rather be a bee in their bonnet. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > In no way do I mean I do not think you capable of handling this > > guy, but why bother? > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hi , I liked Your description of what I mean by taking him to the mat. It is quite accurate. Steppers who profess the validity of the AA dogma have only the limits of the BB and other literature to defend their position when it gets down to " the mat " . Take them there with point blank questions etc. Anything else they bring up to justify themselves or put you down is beside the point. It is the program we want to debate for all to see. Sitting a BB in a chair for debate would be kind of pointless. I left AA on my own and was just tooling along in my life until last year when out of curiosity I started to explore the present day recovery scene over the net. I was pleasantly surprised to find the seeds of revolution planted paving the way for more sensible and rational ways of dealing with substance dependence. It wasn't until actually participating in 12 step free and reading some other sites like AA deprog. and even some of RR stuff that it occurred to me that this is in a way a revolution against the steppism establishment. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7358 > Hi ; > > AA has so many Handy, Dandy escape hatches built in that > getting one to the mat or even near it is veritably impossible. So I > don't drink and don't go to AA, then of course I didn't have the > disease or mine is an isolated event or I am on a dry drunk, or or or > and pay your money and take your choice. It's rather like arguing > with a TV Newsman, where any communication is one way. The > History Channel on TV, even perpetuates Myths that have been > part of our understanding and were debunked years ago, yet writing > them emails on their website telling them that The WW one > footage they are showing of the battle of The Somme was actually > filmed in New Jersey and Montreal province in Canada, doesn't > deter them one iota. I'll bet you've even seen the footage I refer to, > where guys start into no mans land and several fall back in the > trench. Notice the soldiers have no packs, some no rifles, but it is > old hollwood newsreel footage. They couldn't get the real thing > back from France quickly enough in those days so they used > those two sites to simulate footage and sold it as the real thing. It > now has replaced the real thing. > > I get a form letter saying they are glad I like their programs. Not > much to argue with there. > > The AA guy is merely playing a game he cannot lose. Even the > most liberal reading of what the guy says is that Apple is a > " Girl " (To quote him) with a grudge over an " Unfortunate incident " > and needs therapy not for the rape, but for the grudge. Just a > Miscreant. > > The only way I can see to possibly communicate with this guy is > take that offensive line and attack, stray to nothing else, Define The > Playing Field, sticking to that one point for and entire email and > use it to show that AA has made him Anti Women and keep on it > not answering any subject change. Get him out of his rythum, out > of his realm of pat answers, if he dinies it was AA teaching, then > was he a MAMA's boy where his mother thought no woman good > enough for him, or did he come to that conclusion himself? What > does his wife think of his stinkin' attitude? Oh no wife?, I can > understand that with your attitude. etc. Forcing him to concede > one point, just run his AA ways right back at him, don't let the > bastard breathe. Stick with one issue that's not directly related to > alcohol, but part of cult thinking, force him to justify, justify, justify, > till even he sees the justifications are bullshit. But one must have > the initiative to do this. Must act out, rather than react. The more > he tries to justify and change the subject, the more you stick it to > him on the original point. The object being to force him to concede > the point or put his racket on the ground. Have to be willing to > come to the net and concede the lob as a non play. Every lob is > " Out " Or make him think your arms reach both lines and a > passing shot is futile. > > That's the only possibility I see of getting anything from this guy > except humor and irritation. I personalize offense like this guy > deals out and I'd try to make his blood pressure go up everytime he > saw my address in his inbox. Like to be able to make him grind all > his gold caps off, but that's too much to hope for. Once he is out > of his realm of pat AA answers and is forced to recognize his > behavior in regards to women stinks, then you could talk about > another point. Like selling, get him saying yes, regardless what it > takes. > > My guess is about three exchanges and he'll quit. As long as he's > not allowed the initiative. > > If that's what you mean by " Taking them to the mat " , go for it! > > > > > > Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups > Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:34:26 +0900 > > Organization: CBK Int'l Inc. > To: " 12-step-freeegroups " <12-step-freeegroups> > Subject: why bother > > > Hi , > > > > I think one of the best ways to debunk AA is to take their self serving, > > self protecting members to the mat and let people see the debate and > > drawn their own conclusions. The AA way is carried by people and is not > > going to go away on it's own. Ignoring the carriers and letting it slide > > so they can go there way is exactly what has laid the basis for the > > monstrously bloated trojan horse AA now is. Indifference, membership or > > endorsement is what they seek. I'd rather be a bee in their bonnet. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > In no way do I mean I do not think you capable of handling this > > guy, but why bother? > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 What? You mean like form letters? Apple > Hey Apple, > How about a bunch of really tight, rational, standardized, non reactive > replies that you can fire off at a moments notice? I do enjoy the > debunking though. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 I say use their very slogans against them. When you get a hate email pull some big book jargon out and right back at them. I mean, that's what they do in meetings with their simpy smiles pasted on their faces. You go in a meeting crushed over something and get pithy sayings. You are still crushed (even though you tell everyone how grateful you are for their help, you feel much better) and they pat each other on the back because they are the only compassionate helping organization Yeah, let's pull out our dusty Big Books, 12 and 12 and 'as Bill sees it' and focus our studies on tolerance and acceptance and when the fanatical AA'ers pontificate and judge us, we will be armed with their weapons. When they go off the cyber deepend, we will be prepared to calm them down by reminding them to be tolerant of other people's views. That will tend to frustrate them even further till they realize they've had a dose of the wisdom they've laid on others and may they will think, damn that doesn't really feel all that good. Remind them that the resentment they are feeling is because they put themselves in a position to be hurt. They let themselves be tempted to look at an anti-AA site. I think that's the best defense against any fanatical group - a dose of their own medicine. They probably will shut up although I'd love to see them stuttering and stumbling over themselves. They start sounding like spoiled children and will just make their cause look absurd. Jan Re: why bother >Hey Apple, >How about a bunch of really tight, rational, standardized, non reactive >replies that you can fire off at a moments notice? I do enjoy the >debunking though. > > >saes@... wrote: >> >> joe-b@... writes: >> >> > Yes, I go along with this too. While I still maintain that it isn't >> > necessary to respond to the emailed criticisms, dissecting those criticisms >> > and refuting their logic (I'm being kind) is useful for people to read if >> > they are seeking to de-program themselves or " leave the fold " or whatever. >> >> Why not instead of responding privately to these jerks, take time to >> carefully and logically tear apart their arguments and post both the letter >> and the response on the web page? " AA responds to AA Deprogramming " or some >> such? >> >> If nothing else, it would provide a little comic relief. >> >> Regards, >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Listen to Britany spears and more top artists >> now at audiohighway.com! >> http://clickhere./click/395 >> >> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're >satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate >of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 I say use their very slogans against them. When you get a hate email pull some big book jargon out and right back at them. I mean, that's what they do in meetings with their simpy smiles pasted on their faces. You go in a meeting crushed over something and get pithy sayings. You are still crushed (even though you tell everyone how grateful you are for their help, you feel much better) and they pat each other on the back because they are the only compassionate helping organization Yeah, let's pull out our dusty Big Books, 12 and 12 and 'as Bill sees it' and focus our studies on tolerance and acceptance and when the fanatical AA'ers pontificate and judge us, we will be armed with their weapons. When they go off the cyber deepend, we will be prepared to calm them down by reminding them to be tolerant of other people's views. That will tend to frustrate them even further till they realize they've had a dose of the wisdom they've laid on others and may they will think, damn that doesn't really feel all that good. Remind them that the resentment they are feeling is because they put themselves in a position to be hurt. They let themselves be tempted to look at an anti-AA site. I think that's the best defense against any fanatical group - a dose of their own medicine. They probably will shut up although I'd love to see them stuttering and stumbling over themselves. They start sounding like spoiled children and will just make their cause look absurd. Jan Re: why bother >Hey Apple, >How about a bunch of really tight, rational, standardized, non reactive >replies that you can fire off at a moments notice? I do enjoy the >debunking though. > > >saes@... wrote: >> >> joe-b@... writes: >> >> > Yes, I go along with this too. While I still maintain that it isn't >> > necessary to respond to the emailed criticisms, dissecting those criticisms >> > and refuting their logic (I'm being kind) is useful for people to read if >> > they are seeking to de-program themselves or " leave the fold " or whatever. >> >> Why not instead of responding privately to these jerks, take time to >> carefully and logically tear apart their arguments and post both the letter >> and the response on the web page? " AA responds to AA Deprogramming " or some >> such? >> >> If nothing else, it would provide a little comic relief. >> >> Regards, >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Listen to Britany spears and more top artists >> now at audiohighway.com! >> http://clickhere./click/395 >> >> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're >satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate >of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Apple, Yes, I think Joe even recommended the same thing. I just hadn't gotten to his post yet. AppleDTP@... wrote: > > What? You mean like form letters? > Apple > > > Hey Apple, > > How about a bunch of really tight, rational, standardized, non > reactive > > replies that you can fire off at a moments notice? I do enjoy the > > debunking though. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're > satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate > of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 The site is sprinkled with instances where their very slogans are used against them... for example " if you find yourself upset by this site, look for your part and make amends to me for it " and such nonsense. It really upsets them. Of course Clever Trousers wrote that I didn't deserve the same patience & tolerance as others, however he still defended that I should pray for my enemies. (in this case rapists) So words don't deserve patience and open-mindedness, but brutality deserves prayer. Idiot. Apple > I say use their very slogans against them. When you get a hate email pull > some big book jargon out and right back at them. I mean, that's what they > do in meetings with their simpy smiles pasted on their faces. You go in a > meeting crushed over something and get pithy sayings. You are still crushed > (even though you tell everyone how grateful you are for their help, you feel > much better) and they pat each other on the back because they are the only > compassionate helping organization > > Yeah, let's pull out our dusty Big Books, 12 and 12 and 'as Bill sees it' > and focus our studies on tolerance and acceptance and when the fanatical > AA'ers pontificate and judge us, we will be armed with their weapons. When > they go off the cyber deepend, we will be prepared to calm them down by > reminding them to be tolerant of other people's views. That will tend to > frustrate them even further till they realize they've had a dose of the > wisdom they've laid on others and may they will think, damn that doesn't > really feel all that good. Remind them that the resentment they are feeling > is because they put themselves in a position to be hurt. They let > themselves be tempted to look at an anti-AA site. I think that's the best > defense against any fanatical group - a dose of their own medicine. They > probably will shut up although I'd love to see them stuttering and stumbling > over themselves. They start sounding like spoiled children and will just > make their cause look absurd. > > Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 The site is sprinkled with instances where their very slogans are used against them... for example " if you find yourself upset by this site, look for your part and make amends to me for it " and such nonsense. It really upsets them. Of course Clever Trousers wrote that I didn't deserve the same patience & tolerance as others, however he still defended that I should pray for my enemies. (in this case rapists) So words don't deserve patience and open-mindedness, but brutality deserves prayer. Idiot. Apple > I say use their very slogans against them. When you get a hate email pull > some big book jargon out and right back at them. I mean, that's what they > do in meetings with their simpy smiles pasted on their faces. You go in a > meeting crushed over something and get pithy sayings. You are still crushed > (even though you tell everyone how grateful you are for their help, you feel > much better) and they pat each other on the back because they are the only > compassionate helping organization > > Yeah, let's pull out our dusty Big Books, 12 and 12 and 'as Bill sees it' > and focus our studies on tolerance and acceptance and when the fanatical > AA'ers pontificate and judge us, we will be armed with their weapons. When > they go off the cyber deepend, we will be prepared to calm them down by > reminding them to be tolerant of other people's views. That will tend to > frustrate them even further till they realize they've had a dose of the > wisdom they've laid on others and may they will think, damn that doesn't > really feel all that good. Remind them that the resentment they are feeling > is because they put themselves in a position to be hurt. They let > themselves be tempted to look at an anti-AA site. I think that's the best > defense against any fanatical group - a dose of their own medicine. They > probably will shut up although I'd love to see them stuttering and stumbling > over themselves. They start sounding like spoiled children and will just > make their cause look absurd. > > Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 or a form test.... " Has AA dogma and rhetoric effected you ability to think? " ---------- To: 12-step-freeegroups Subject: Re: why bother Date: Thu, Aug 12, 1999, 10:43 PM Apple, Yes, I think Joe even recommended the same thing. I just hadn't gotten to his post yet. AppleDTP@... wrote: > > What? You mean like form letters? > Apple > > > Hey Apple, > > How about a bunch of really tight, rational, standardized, non > reactive > > replies that you can fire off at a moments notice? I do enjoy the > > debunking though. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're > satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate > of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free </group/12-step-free> www. <> - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 Hi , folks To further compound Hollywood inaccuracies, a new american film shows the Enigma code machine being captured from a German U boat by Americans - it wasnt, it was captured by the British. The director says he doesnt give a shit (essentially). Regarding " sober " - I dont make too much of the the US court rulings on Aa and religion, because I know how nonsensical legal decisions can be - especialy, if I may say so, American. Illegal drugs are referred to as " narcotics " , whether they are or not. NA has a poster " Alcohol is a narcotic " - both pharmacologically and legally inaccurate. Some Americans may have use " sober " differently " , like they seem to use " minority " differently, but to a Brit " sober " simply means " not drunk " and does not mean alcohol free. One can have a drink or two and be perfectly sober, perhaps over the driving limit and still be sober. If being under the limit and hence legally allowed to drive isnt considered " sober " , why on earth is a test called a " Sobriety Test " when, apparently you can be " not sober " and still fit to drive??? That does not add up. Pete > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: why bother >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:38:16 -0600 > >Hi ; > >AA has so many Handy, Dandy escape hatches built in that >getting one to the mat or even near it is veritably impossible. So I >don't drink and don't go to AA, then of course I didn't have the >disease or mine is an isolated event or I am on a dry drunk, or or or >and pay your money and take your choice. It's rather like arguing >with a TV Newsman, where any communication is one way. The >History Channel on TV, even perpetuates Myths that have been >part of our understanding and were debunked years ago, yet writing >them emails on their website telling them that The WW one >footage they are showing of the battle of The Somme was actually >filmed in New Jersey and Montreal province in Canada, doesn't >deter them one iota. I'll bet you've even seen the footage I refer to, >where guys start into no mans land and several fall back in the >trench. Notice the soldiers have no packs, some no rifles, but it is >old hollwood newsreel footage. They couldn't get the real thing >back from France quickly enough in those days so they used >those two sites to simulate footage and sold it as the real thing. It >now has replaced the real thing. > >I get a form letter saying they are glad I like their programs. Not >much to argue with there. > >The AA guy is merely playing a game he cannot lose. Even the >most liberal reading of what the guy says is that Apple is a > " Girl " (To quote him) with a grudge over an " Unfortunate incident " >and needs therapy not for the rape, but for the grudge. Just a >Miscreant. > >The only way I can see to possibly communicate with this guy is >take that offensive line and attack, stray to nothing else, Define The >Playing Field, sticking to that one point for and entire email and >use it to show that AA has made him Anti Women and keep on it >not answering any subject change. Get him out of his rythum, out >of his realm of pat answers, if he dinies it was AA teaching, then >was he a MAMA's boy where his mother thought no woman good >enough for him, or did he come to that conclusion himself? What >does his wife think of his stinkin' attitude? Oh no wife?, I can >understand that with your attitude. etc. Forcing him to concede >one point, just run his AA ways right back at him, don't let the >bastard breathe. Stick with one issue that's not directly related to >alcohol, but part of cult thinking, force him to justify, justify, justify, >till even he sees the justifications are bullshit. But one must have >the initiative to do this. Must act out, rather than react. The more >he tries to justify and change the subject, the more you stick it to >him on the original point. The object being to force him to concede >the point or put his racket on the ground. Have to be willing to >come to the net and concede the lob as a non play. Every lob is > " Out " Or make him think your arms reach both lines and a >passing shot is futile. > >That's the only possibility I see of getting anything from this guy >except humor and irritation. I personalize offense like this guy >deals out and I'd try to make his blood pressure go up everytime he >saw my address in his inbox. Like to be able to make him grind all >his gold caps off, but that's too much to hope for. Once he is out >of his realm of pat AA answers and is forced to recognize his >behavior in regards to women stinks, then you could talk about >another point. Like selling, get him saying yes, regardless what it >takes. > >My guess is about three exchanges and he'll quit. As long as he's >not allowed the initiative. > >If that's what you mean by " Taking them to the mat " , go for it! > > > > > >Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups >Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:34:26 +0900 > >Organization: CBK Int'l Inc. >To: " 12-step-freeegroups " <12-step-freeegroups> >Subject: why bother > > > Hi , > > > > I think one of the best ways to debunk AA is to take their self serving, > > self protecting members to the mat and let people see the debate and > > drawn their own conclusions. The AA way is carried by people and is not > > going to go away on it's own. Ignoring the carriers and letting it slide > > so they can go there way is exactly what has laid the basis for the > > monstrously bloated trojan horse AA now is. Indifference, membership or > > endorsement is what they seek. I'd rather be a bee in their bonnet. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > In no way do I mean I do not think you capable of handling this > > guy, but why bother? > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're > > satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate > > of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're >satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate >of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 Hi , folks To further compound Hollywood inaccuracies, a new american film shows the Enigma code machine being captured from a German U boat by Americans - it wasnt, it was captured by the British. The director says he doesnt give a shit (essentially). Regarding " sober " - I dont make too much of the the US court rulings on Aa and religion, because I know how nonsensical legal decisions can be - especialy, if I may say so, American. Illegal drugs are referred to as " narcotics " , whether they are or not. NA has a poster " Alcohol is a narcotic " - both pharmacologically and legally inaccurate. Some Americans may have use " sober " differently " , like they seem to use " minority " differently, but to a Brit " sober " simply means " not drunk " and does not mean alcohol free. One can have a drink or two and be perfectly sober, perhaps over the driving limit and still be sober. If being under the limit and hence legally allowed to drive isnt considered " sober " , why on earth is a test called a " Sobriety Test " when, apparently you can be " not sober " and still fit to drive??? That does not add up. Pete > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: why bother >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:38:16 -0600 > >Hi ; > >AA has so many Handy, Dandy escape hatches built in that >getting one to the mat or even near it is veritably impossible. So I >don't drink and don't go to AA, then of course I didn't have the >disease or mine is an isolated event or I am on a dry drunk, or or or >and pay your money and take your choice. It's rather like arguing >with a TV Newsman, where any communication is one way. The >History Channel on TV, even perpetuates Myths that have been >part of our understanding and were debunked years ago, yet writing >them emails on their website telling them that The WW one >footage they are showing of the battle of The Somme was actually >filmed in New Jersey and Montreal province in Canada, doesn't >deter them one iota. I'll bet you've even seen the footage I refer to, >where guys start into no mans land and several fall back in the >trench. Notice the soldiers have no packs, some no rifles, but it is >old hollwood newsreel footage. They couldn't get the real thing >back from France quickly enough in those days so they used >those two sites to simulate footage and sold it as the real thing. It >now has replaced the real thing. > >I get a form letter saying they are glad I like their programs. Not >much to argue with there. > >The AA guy is merely playing a game he cannot lose. Even the >most liberal reading of what the guy says is that Apple is a > " Girl " (To quote him) with a grudge over an " Unfortunate incident " >and needs therapy not for the rape, but for the grudge. Just a >Miscreant. > >The only way I can see to possibly communicate with this guy is >take that offensive line and attack, stray to nothing else, Define The >Playing Field, sticking to that one point for and entire email and >use it to show that AA has made him Anti Women and keep on it >not answering any subject change. Get him out of his rythum, out >of his realm of pat answers, if he dinies it was AA teaching, then >was he a MAMA's boy where his mother thought no woman good >enough for him, or did he come to that conclusion himself? What >does his wife think of his stinkin' attitude? Oh no wife?, I can >understand that with your attitude. etc. Forcing him to concede >one point, just run his AA ways right back at him, don't let the >bastard breathe. Stick with one issue that's not directly related to >alcohol, but part of cult thinking, force him to justify, justify, justify, >till even he sees the justifications are bullshit. But one must have >the initiative to do this. Must act out, rather than react. The more >he tries to justify and change the subject, the more you stick it to >him on the original point. The object being to force him to concede >the point or put his racket on the ground. Have to be willing to >come to the net and concede the lob as a non play. Every lob is > " Out " Or make him think your arms reach both lines and a >passing shot is futile. > >That's the only possibility I see of getting anything from this guy >except humor and irritation. I personalize offense like this guy >deals out and I'd try to make his blood pressure go up everytime he >saw my address in his inbox. Like to be able to make him grind all >his gold caps off, but that's too much to hope for. Once he is out >of his realm of pat AA answers and is forced to recognize his >behavior in regards to women stinks, then you could talk about >another point. Like selling, get him saying yes, regardless what it >takes. > >My guess is about three exchanges and he'll quit. As long as he's >not allowed the initiative. > >If that's what you mean by " Taking them to the mat " , go for it! > > > > > >Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups >Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:34:26 +0900 > >Organization: CBK Int'l Inc. >To: " 12-step-freeegroups " <12-step-freeegroups> >Subject: why bother > > > Hi , > > > > I think one of the best ways to debunk AA is to take their self serving, > > self protecting members to the mat and let people see the debate and > > drawn their own conclusions. The AA way is carried by people and is not > > going to go away on it's own. Ignoring the carriers and letting it slide > > so they can go there way is exactly what has laid the basis for the > > monstrously bloated trojan horse AA now is. Indifference, membership or > > endorsement is what they seek. I'd rather be a bee in their bonnet. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > In no way do I mean I do not think you capable of handling this > > guy, but why bother? > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're > > satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate > > of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're >satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate >of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 1999 Report Share Posted August 15, 1999 ---------- To: 12-step-freeegroups Subject: Re: Re: why bother Date: Fri, Aug 13, 1999, 7:52 AM or a form test.... " Has AA dogma and rhetoric effected you ability to think? " ---------- To: 12-step-freeegroups Subject: Re: why bother Date: Thu, Aug 12, 1999, 10:43 PM Apple, Yes, I think Joe even recommended the same thing. I just hadn't gotten to his post yet. AppleDTP@... wrote: > > What? You mean like form letters? > Apple > > > Hey Apple, > > How about a bunch of really tight, rational, standardized, non > reactive > > replies that you can fire off at a moments notice? I do enjoy the > > debunking though. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're > satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate > of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free </group/12-step-free> www. <> - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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