Re: Judith's challenge

[Guest guest]

> OK Judith, here's your mission should you choose to accept it....

(dum..dum..dum..dumm dumm... [theme from Mission Impossible}) Hurry up

before this e-mail self destructs.>

You asked for it

You wrote: It sounds as if the people in your " scenarios " should be in

" Idiots Anonymous. " The behavior described (e.g. folks who told you to read

pg. 449 in The Big Book in the aftermath of an assault on you) shows more

about your bad judgement than it does about AA.

My response: I hold myself accountable for my behavior, but not the behavior

of others. Therefore, I don't see how someone else's behavior (e.g.,

telling me to read page 449 in the Big Book to deal with an assault)

indicates that I have bad judgment. Surely you're not saying it's better to

keep quiet about an assault. Are you saying I should have known in advance

how the person would react? I shared my experience with people I trusted,

but they were so immersed in program jargon that they really thought I could

deal with that by reading the Big Book.

You wrote: Furthermore, the women described are atypical of women in AA, or

anywhere for that matter, with the exception of a Lifetime movie perhaps.

The husband slugs his wife because she burned dinner, and THAT is HER

part?????? She SHOULD be slugged for being so stupid...and I'm a woman!

What she needs is NOT AA, but a good shelter and some intensive therapy.

My response: Unfortunately, when a woman (or man, or child) is in an abusive

relationship, their abuser makes it extremely difficult and dangerous to

leave. I know you are being facetious when you say she should be slugged

for being so stupid, but it is not stupidity that keeps someone in an

abusive relationship. It is the mistaken belief that there is no

alternative. I agree with your statement that " What she needs is NOT AA,

but a good shelter and some intensive therapy. " However, people in AA use

the 12 steps universally-not just to apply to alcoholism but to frequent

situations that arise in all areas of life. My experience is that therapy

is discouraged. I hope that is different in your group. Depending upon

where a woman goes for assistance, 12 step meetings may be " prescribed "

instead of therapy and a shelter.

You wrote: Where are you getting these so-called examples of AA? So you go

to meetings only to gather information for whatever you're doing. Do you

sit in the corner, or near the door, seeting with resentment because the

people you are writing about have something you don't? Because you can't

stay sober, and face hard truths about yourself? Because you had a run-in

(or 2, or 3) with some people in AA who did you wrong (doesn't that happen

in the bars you invariably go to?)? Because through your narrow,

resentment-filled eyes, ALL AA members are against drinking?

My response: The examples are my and other people's real life experiences.

The reason they are presented is because they are the truth. If the truth

is a threat to AA then AA needs to take a look at itself as an

organization.

You wrote: When a young woman who is engaged to be married (per her

fiancee's letter to you) tries to get sober and " it tears the relationship

apart " her boyfriend should look at his own drinking, in my opinion, for

people who have drinking problems are the only one's threatened by a loved

one's sobriety.

My response: While your advice sounds good on paper, workable solutions are

rarely that simple. You and I are coming from different premises here. I

attribute some of the problem to the program of AA. Therefore, I see the

solution as coming, in part, from changing or getting out of AA. You, on

the other hand, attribute all the problem to the individual working the

program. Any solution must come from the person. Since I believe that,

ultimately, people will face problems that cannot be fixed with anything

from AA literature (such as violent assault, the death of a loved one); and

since I believe that AA often discourages people from looking outside the

program for solutions to their problems; the resulting situation I see is

one where people are carrying around unresolved grief and anger, repressing

it so they will appear to be working their program correctly, and becoming

increasingly depressed, angry, and emotionally dysfunctional.

You wrote: I can't say enough about what you are doing. Your motives are

dishonest and that's not " the program " talking. It's my character. Your

website makes me sick, and you make me sick. AA has saved the lives of

millions of people, me included and by extension, my daughter. There are

sicko's everywhere, NOT just in the rooms of AA, and for you and

that....woman or whoever it is who intend to write a book about horror

stories of AA, I suggest you take the time you would have invested in THAT

little profit-producing, resentment-subsiding piece of garbage and LOOK AT

YOURSELF. You're obviously a very disturbed, unhappy man. Or better yet!

WRITE the book, and donate all the proceeds to a worthy charity (other than

yourself, that is). Then I will believe your motives are pure. Won't do it,

will you?

My response: You are certainly entitled to question my motives. I question

yours.

You wrote: The only horror story in AA is a man or a woman who has a

drinking problem, and who still thinks he/she is unique, well, normal, and

a victim. A VICTIM is what you are being, " poor me, look what AA has done

to me. AA is a bad, bad thing. " Why don't you just put a gun in your hand

and shoot some people with real drinking problems, because that is what

your " crusade " amounts to. Waaah Waaah, baby. Go get your bottle.

My response: Again I suspect you are being facetious by encouraging me to

shoot people with chemical dependency issues. I hope so, at least.

You wrote: Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, AA people ARE human and CAN

get upset. Do you see me " turning this over? " NO. Maybe I should, who

knows. But your misery and your depression, and your inability to deal with

reality will catch up to you. You had 5 years in AA? Big fu**ing deal. I

know folks with 6 months of sobriety who " get it " better than you did. I

pray for you.

Extremely Sincerely, M., a grateful and happy friend of Bill

.

My response: , you say you pray for me, yet it sounds like a threat

or an insult. You say you are grateful and happy, but the tone of your

email is hateful and angry. My problem is that my experience with AA was a

negative one. My website is intended to provoke thought and discussion

about why a person seeking help from a large, influential organization might

be hurt instead. You appear to have a problem with that. I will let that

be your problem.

________________________________________________________________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

> Rock on Judith! (, you rock too, the way you dismantled Clever

> Trousers)

> I will send this to the woman OK?

> big hug

> Apple

That's fine with me, Apple

j

________________________________________________________________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

Awww, thanks. You know, I don't get a lot of letters like that. Just

this week has been bad. Next week will probably follow with " ohmygod...

thank you for this site " . It comes in waves. I have gotten a few

letters pointing out that the women I describe must be dumb as rocks,

the ones I refer to in the stories who see their part in rape & abuse

as being out at night/drunk, or not fulfilling some domestic obligation

properly. I dont' think that's as uncommon as these people say. I

think it's actually very common for someone stuck in the circle of

domestic violence or an abusive relationship to think that somehow,

some action on their part triggered the whole thing. What do you think

folks?

Apple

(example from angry letter:)

The husband slugs his wife because she burned dinner,

and THAT is HER part?????? She SHOULD be slugged for being so

stupid...and I'm a woman! What she needs is NOT AA, but a good shelter

and some

intensive therapy.

> Apple, I wanted to take a moment to thank you from the bottom of my

heart

> once again for you and your site. After reading that horrific letter

which

> is the kind of thing you must have thrown at you a lot..... well, I

take my

> hat off to you! Wow.

>

[Guest guest]

Awww, thanks. You know, I don't get a lot of letters like that. Just

this week has been bad. Next week will probably follow with " ohmygod...

thank you for this site " . It comes in waves. I have gotten a few

letters pointing out that the women I describe must be dumb as rocks,

the ones I refer to in the stories who see their part in rape & abuse

as being out at night/drunk, or not fulfilling some domestic obligation

properly. I dont' think that's as uncommon as these people say. I

think it's actually very common for someone stuck in the circle of

domestic violence or an abusive relationship to think that somehow,

some action on their part triggered the whole thing. What do you think

folks?

Apple

(example from angry letter:)

The husband slugs his wife because she burned dinner,

and THAT is HER part?????? She SHOULD be slugged for being so

stupid...and I'm a woman! What she needs is NOT AA, but a good shelter

and some

intensive therapy.

> Apple, I wanted to take a moment to thank you from the bottom of my

heart

> once again for you and your site. After reading that horrific letter

which

> is the kind of thing you must have thrown at you a lot..... well, I

take my

> hat off to you! Wow.

>

[Guest guest]

<00bd01bee47c$10e0d400$3814fed-@mrsy> wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7304

> Apple, if you want to clip anything I've said in my posts to reply to

the

> 'hate mail', be my guest. They seem to think you are making

everything up.

>

> Jan

>

Thank you.

Apple

[Guest guest]

<00bd01bee47c$10e0d400$3814fed-@mrsy> wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7304

> Apple, if you want to clip anything I've said in my posts to reply to

the

> 'hate mail', be my guest. They seem to think you are making

everything up.

>

> Jan

>

Thank you.

Apple

[Guest guest]

My experience in assisting victims of domestic violence would support

this. Somehow accepting that they caused things to happen on some level

seems to actually make sense of things to some victims. AA dogma plays

right into this. It is as if by sharing blame they can deny being an

unwilling participant. Often they would return to the familiar cycle of

abuse even when they were given choices to leave.

Snip.....

> think it's actually very common for someone stuck in the circle of

> domestic violence or an abusive relationship to think that somehow,

> some action on their part triggered the whole thing. What do you

think

> folks?

> Apple

>

>

[Guest guest]

Apple,

I remember that when I first surfed into your de-prog. site I didn't

get this thing about being a man-hater. In truth I read over the site

and I thought it was written by a man. I still don't get where people

see a man hating issue.

I see an issue about having your brain in a carry box like the kind

you'd take a cat to the vet in.

[Guest guest]

Apple,

I remember that when I first surfed into your de-prog. site I didn't

get this thing about being a man-hater. In truth I read over the site

and I thought it was written by a man. I still don't get where people

see a man hating issue.

I see an issue about having your brain in a carry box like the kind

you'd take a cat to the vet in.

[Guest guest]

Rock on Judith! (, you rock too, the way you dismantled Clever

Trousers)

I will send this to the woman OK?

big hug

Apple

>

>

> > OK Judith, here's your mission should you choose to accept it....

> (dum..dum..dum..dumm dumm... [theme from Mission Impossible}) Hurry

up

> before this e-mail self destructs.>

>

> You asked for it

>

> You wrote: It sounds as if the people in your " scenarios " should be in

> " Idiots Anonymous. " The behavior described (e.g. folks who told you

to read

> pg. 449 in The Big Book in the aftermath of an assault on you) shows

more

> about your bad judgement than it does about AA.

>

> My response: I hold myself accountable for my behavior, but not the

behavior

> of others. Therefore, I don't see how someone else's behavior (e.g.,

> telling me to read page 449 in the Big Book to deal with an assault)

> indicates that I have bad judgment. Surely you're not saying it's

better to

> keep quiet about an assault. Are you saying I should have known in

advance

> how the person would react? I shared my experience with people I

trusted,

> but they were so immersed in program jargon that they really thought

I could

> deal with that by reading the Big Book.

>

> You wrote: Furthermore, the women described are atypical of women in

AA, or

> anywhere for that matter, with the exception of a Lifetime movie

perhaps.

> The husband slugs his wife because she burned dinner, and THAT is HER

> part?????? She SHOULD be slugged for being so stupid...and I'm a

woman!

> What she needs is NOT AA, but a good shelter and some intensive

therapy.

>

> My response: Unfortunately, when a woman (or man, or child) is in an

abusive

> relationship, their abuser makes it extremely difficult and dangerous

to

> leave. I know you are being facetious when you say she should be

slugged

> for being so stupid, but it is not stupidity that keeps someone in an

> abusive relationship. It is the mistaken belief that there is no

> alternative. I agree with your statement that " What she needs is NOT

AA,

> but a good shelter and some intensive therapy. " However, people in

AA use

> the 12 steps universally-not just to apply to alcoholism but to

frequent

> situations that arise in all areas of life. My experience is that

therapy

> is discouraged. I hope that is different in your group. Depending

upon

> where a woman goes for assistance, 12 step meetings may be

" prescribed "

> instead of therapy and a shelter.

>

> You wrote: Where are you getting these so-called examples of AA? So

you go

> to meetings only to gather information for whatever you're doing. Do

you

> sit in the corner, or near the door, seeting with resentment because

the

> people you are writing about have something you don't? Because you

can't

> stay sober, and face hard truths about yourself? Because you had a

run-in

> (or 2, or 3) with some people in AA who did you wrong (doesn't that

happen

> in the bars you invariably go to?)? Because through your narrow,

> resentment-filled eyes, ALL AA members are against drinking?

>

> My response: The examples are my and other people's real life

experiences.

> The reason they are presented is because they are the truth. If the

truth

> is a threat to AA then AA needs to take a look at itself as an

> organization.

>

> You wrote: When a young woman who is engaged to be married (per her

> fiancee's letter to you) tries to get sober and " it tears the

relationship

> apart " her boyfriend should look at his own drinking, in my opinion,

for

> people who have drinking problems are the only one's threatened by a

loved

> one's sobriety.

>

> My response: While your advice sounds good on paper, workable

solutions are

> rarely that simple. You and I are coming from different premises

here. I

> attribute some of the problem to the program of AA. Therefore, I see

the

> solution as coming, in part, from changing or getting out of AA.

You, on

> the other hand, attribute all the problem to the individual working

the

> program. Any solution must come from the person. Since I believe

that,

> ultimately, people will face problems that cannot be fixed with

anything

> from AA literature (such as violent assault, the death of a loved

one); and

> since I believe that AA often discourages people from looking outside

the

> program for solutions to their problems; the resulting situation I

see is

> one where people are carrying around unresolved grief and anger,

repressing

> it so they will appear to be working their program correctly, and

becoming

> increasingly depressed, angry, and emotionally dysfunctional.

>

> You wrote: I can't say enough about what you are doing. Your motives

are

> dishonest and that's not " the program " talking. It's my character.

Your

> website makes me sick, and you make me sick. AA has saved the lives

of

> millions of people, me included and by extension, my daughter. There

are

> sicko's everywhere, NOT just in the rooms of AA, and for you and

> that....woman or whoever it is who intend to write a book about

horror

> stories of AA, I suggest you take the time you would have invested

in THAT

> little profit-producing, resentment-subsiding piece of garbage and

LOOK AT

> YOURSELF. You're obviously a very disturbed, unhappy man. Or better

yet!

> WRITE the book, and donate all the proceeds to a worthy charity

(other than

> yourself, that is). Then I will believe your motives are pure. Won't

do it,

> will you?

>

> My response: You are certainly entitled to question my motives. I

question

> yours.

>

> You wrote: The only horror story in AA is a man or a woman who has a

> drinking problem, and who still thinks he/she is unique, well,

normal, and

> a victim. A VICTIM is what you are being, " poor me, look what AA has

done

> to me. AA is a bad, bad thing. " Why don't you just put a gun in your

hand

> and shoot some people with real drinking problems, because that is

what

> your " crusade " amounts to. Waaah Waaah, baby. Go get your bottle.

>

> My response: Again I suspect you are being facetious by encouraging

me to

> shoot people with chemical dependency issues. I hope so, at least.

>

> You wrote: Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, AA people ARE human

and CAN

> get upset. Do you see me " turning this over? " NO. Maybe I should, who

> knows. But your misery and your depression, and your inability to

deal with

> reality will catch up to you. You had 5 years in AA? Big fu**ing

deal. I

> know folks with 6 months of sobriety who " get it " better than you

did. I

> pray for you.

>

> Extremely Sincerely, M., a grateful and happy friend of

Bill

> .

>

> My response: , you say you pray for me, yet it sounds like a

threat

> or an insult. You say you are grateful and happy, but the tone of

your

> email is hateful and angry. My problem is that my experience with AA

was a

> negative one. My website is intended to provoke thought and

discussion

> about why a person seeking help from a large, influential

organization might

> be hurt instead. You appear to have a problem with that. I will let

that

> be your problem.

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________________________________________

> Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

> Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

At 02:29 AM 8/12/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Awww, thanks. You know, I don't get a lot of letters like that. Just

>this week has been bad. Next week will probably follow with " ohmygod...

>thank you for this site " . It comes in waves. I have gotten a few

>letters pointing out that the women I describe must be dumb as rocks,

>the ones I refer to in the stories who see their part in rape & abuse

>as being out at night/drunk, or not fulfilling some domestic obligation

>properly. I dont' think that's as uncommon as these people say. I

>think it's actually very common for someone stuck in the circle of

>domestic violence or an abusive relationship to think that somehow,

>some action on their part triggered the whole thing. What do you think

>folks?

>Apple

Absolutely. AA philosophy is magical thinking in the sense that AA people

tend to take on blame deliberately in the magical belief that by being

spiritual they can absolve themselves and then bad things can't happen to

them. This then implies that when bad things DO happen to people it must

have been their fault. It is an irrational and unhealthy overextension of

the concept of personal responsibility. Needless to say they don't like its

downside being pointed out and they seek to blame people for taking the

step philosphy literally, say they must have been REALLY stupid, etc. But

that is what the 12 step philosphy teaches-

" Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but later we

invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based

on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt. "

Personally, as someone already pointed out, it really isn't necessary to

respond to the criticisms of your site from step people. It is like arguing

about Scientology with Scientologists. It is a waste of time. They aren't

willing to consider the evidence, they merely want to disqualify it,

whatever it is, any way they can. It is ridiculous and they do not warrant

a serious response. There is enough to be going on with, including

suggestions for further reading already up there, on your site. You don't

need to debate with these people.

Joe Berenbaum

mailto:joe-b@...

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree. But what is powerful, is listening to the responses to those critisisms here in this forum. It's a great reality check for me. I love hearing the intelligent and rational arguments against these letters. BTW, thanks Judith. Your response was great! Rebekah

Joe wrote:

Personally, as someone already pointed out, it really isn't necessary to

respond to the criticisms of your site from step people. It is like arguing

about Scientology with Scientologists. It is a waste of time. They aren't

willing to consider the evidence, they merely want to disqualify it,

whatever it is, any way they can. It is ridiculous and they do not warrant

a serious response. There is enough to be going on with, including

suggestions for further reading already up there, on your site. You don't

need to debate with these people.

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree. But what is powerful, is listening to the responses to those critisisms here in this forum. It's a great reality check for me. I love hearing the intelligent and rational arguments against these letters. BTW, thanks Judith. Your response was great! Rebekah

Joe wrote:

Personally, as someone already pointed out, it really isn't necessary to

respond to the criticisms of your site from step people. It is like arguing

about Scientology with Scientologists. It is a waste of time. They aren't

willing to consider the evidence, they merely want to disqualify it,

whatever it is, any way they can. It is ridiculous and they do not warrant

a serious response. There is enough to be going on with, including

suggestions for further reading already up there, on your site. You don't

need to debate with these people.

[Guest guest]

I agree Joe... the only way to point out the absurdity of this whole

dumb philosophy is by example. One literally has to do something vile

to an AA guru for it to sink in. (of course I couldn't and wouldn't,

but imagine if....) Let's say I offered Clancy a ride home, offered him

a soft drink with date rape drug for the ride, then took an unplanned

detour, then subjected him to some really sick things which I recorded

with a Polaroid camera, the pictures of which I would send to his

family... would his congregation really think that he is to blame for

getting into the car, and drinking soda??? Would they tell him to pray

for me?? I mean with the rise of date rape drug use in the first

place, and the increasing level of violence as entertainment, in movies

and TV, it is insane to be applying the AA philosophy on a broad scale.

I am absolutely convinced that it is perpetrators and abusers who

uphold the AA philosophy the most vehemently, because it offers them

instant absolution for their past crimes, without any of the social

fallout. In a normal society, perpetrators & abusers are shunned by

the community, but there are no such reprecussions in the AA microcosm.

I don't understand why the steppers don't look at the rising movement

against the flawed AA religion as something that can be attributed to

**their part** in failing to repair this dangerous philosophy.

The reason it grows and grows is because we are lacking in social

contact. People will overlook a lot in order to have access to a group

of people. I mean, look at the rising number of personal ads on the

Internet and in newspapers. Where the hell are we supposed to meet

people, now that the modern world has robbed us of personal contact

with others??? Bank tellers are replaced with ATMs, gas pumps are

becoming automated, Mcs is implementing a new drive-through order

placing system where humans dont' have to interact. AA and the 12 step

movement is filling this gap. It sucks being alone so much, that

people don't even want to question the religion, because they know if

they do, they'll be cast out, and then subsequently, they'll lose

access to the people (some of whom are real gems)

Apple

> Absolutely. AA philosophy is magical thinking in the sense that AA

people

> tend to take on blame deliberately in the magical belief that by being

> spiritual they can absolve themselves and then bad things can't

happen to

> them. This then implies that when bad things DO happen to people it

must

> have been their fault. It is an irrational and unhealthy

overextension of

> the concept of personal responsibility. Needless to say they don't

like its

> downside being pointed out and they seek to blame people for taking

the

> step philosphy literally, say they must have been REALLY stupid, etc.

But

> that is what the 12 step philosphy teaches-

>

> " Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but later we

> invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions

based

> on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt. "

>

> Personally, as someone already pointed out, it really isn't necessary

to

> respond to the criticisms of your site from step people. It is like

arguing

> about Scientology with Scientologists. It is a waste of time. They

aren't

> willing to consider the evidence, they merely want to disqualify it,

> whatever it is, any way they can. It is ridiculous and they do not

warrant

> a serious response. There is enough to be going on with, including

> suggestions for further reading already up there, on your site. You

don't

> need to debate with these people.

>

> Joe Berenbaum

> mailto:joe-b@...

>

[Guest guest]

I agree Joe... the only way to point out the absurdity of this whole

dumb philosophy is by example. One literally has to do something vile

to an AA guru for it to sink in. (of course I couldn't and wouldn't,

but imagine if....) Let's say I offered Clancy a ride home, offered him

a soft drink with date rape drug for the ride, then took an unplanned

detour, then subjected him to some really sick things which I recorded

with a Polaroid camera, the pictures of which I would send to his

family... would his congregation really think that he is to blame for

getting into the car, and drinking soda??? Would they tell him to pray

for me?? I mean with the rise of date rape drug use in the first

place, and the increasing level of violence as entertainment, in movies

and TV, it is insane to be applying the AA philosophy on a broad scale.

I am absolutely convinced that it is perpetrators and abusers who

uphold the AA philosophy the most vehemently, because it offers them

instant absolution for their past crimes, without any of the social

fallout. In a normal society, perpetrators & abusers are shunned by

the community, but there are no such reprecussions in the AA microcosm.

I don't understand why the steppers don't look at the rising movement

against the flawed AA religion as something that can be attributed to

**their part** in failing to repair this dangerous philosophy.

The reason it grows and grows is because we are lacking in social

contact. People will overlook a lot in order to have access to a group

of people. I mean, look at the rising number of personal ads on the

Internet and in newspapers. Where the hell are we supposed to meet

people, now that the modern world has robbed us of personal contact

with others??? Bank tellers are replaced with ATMs, gas pumps are

becoming automated, Mcs is implementing a new drive-through order

placing system where humans dont' have to interact. AA and the 12 step

movement is filling this gap. It sucks being alone so much, that

people don't even want to question the religion, because they know if

they do, they'll be cast out, and then subsequently, they'll lose

access to the people (some of whom are real gems)

Apple

> Absolutely. AA philosophy is magical thinking in the sense that AA

people

> tend to take on blame deliberately in the magical belief that by being

> spiritual they can absolve themselves and then bad things can't

happen to

> them. This then implies that when bad things DO happen to people it

must

> have been their fault. It is an irrational and unhealthy

overextension of

> the concept of personal responsibility. Needless to say they don't

like its

> downside being pointed out and they seek to blame people for taking

the

> step philosphy literally, say they must have been REALLY stupid, etc.

But

> that is what the 12 step philosphy teaches-

>

> " Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but later we

> invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions

based

> on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt. "

>

> Personally, as someone already pointed out, it really isn't necessary

to

> respond to the criticisms of your site from step people. It is like

arguing

> about Scientology with Scientologists. It is a waste of time. They

aren't

> willing to consider the evidence, they merely want to disqualify it,

> whatever it is, any way they can. It is ridiculous and they do not

warrant

> a serious response. There is enough to be going on with, including

> suggestions for further reading already up there, on your site. You

don't

> need to debate with these people.

>

> Joe Berenbaum

> mailto:joe-b@...

>

[Guest guest]

Whew, that's a relief, cause I wouldn't want to lose 50% of my

audience. But why did you think it was written by a man? The latest

angry letter writer thought I was a guy too....

Apple

> Apple,

>

> I remember that when I first surfed into your de-prog. site I didn't

> get this thing about being a man-hater. In truth I read over the site

> and I thought it was written by a man. I still don't get where people

> see a man hating issue.

> I see an issue about having your brain in a carry box like the kind

> you'd take a cat to the vet in.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Whew, that's a relief, cause I wouldn't want to lose 50% of my

audience. But why did you think it was written by a man? The latest

angry letter writer thought I was a guy too....

Apple

> Apple,

>

> I remember that when I first surfed into your de-prog. site I didn't

> get this thing about being a man-hater. In truth I read over the site

> and I thought it was written by a man. I still don't get where people

> see a man hating issue.

> I see an issue about having your brain in a carry box like the kind

> you'd take a cat to the vet in.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Apple,

Hell look at all the smart people here who swallowed the AA BS for

years. YOU ARE RIGHT ON TARGET WITH YOUR STUFF. If you ask me most of

your detractors are as dumb as a sack of hammers. Not true, but I

couldn't resist it.

Actually brains don't really play into these scenarios since the problem

is not really lying in the speed or capacity of the human computer, but

in the tainted software it's running on. Your critics are merely robots

responding to your data in the fashion they were programmed to respond.

Many of the people you describe in abusive relationships are also

suffering from bad programming. You offer a viable solution by

encouraging people to reclaim their brains so that they need no longer

live their lives like mindless automatons just because EVERYBODY

SEZ...............

AA offers a lifetime of mindless servitude. Your site offers the Freedom

that AA only pays lip service to. Freedom is what this is all about, and

that's all I see on your site. AA drones see anger, resentment,

blasphemy, bitterness, and sarcasm. They miss the point because they

feel they have found the promised land, and have lost their ability to

distinguish reality. They are steeped in fantasy as they await their

next parking space courtesy of God.

JOHN

AppleDTP@... wrote:

>

> Awww, thanks. You know, I don't get a lot of letters like that. Just

> this week has been bad. Next week will probably follow with " ohmygod...

> thank you for this site " . It comes in waves. I have gotten a few

> letters pointing out that the women I describe must be dumb as rocks,

> the ones I refer to in the stories who see their part in rape & abuse

> as being out at night/drunk, or not fulfilling some domestic obligation

> properly. I dont' think that's as uncommon as these people say. I

> think it's actually very common for someone stuck in the circle of

> domestic violence or an abusive relationship to think that somehow,

> some action on their part triggered the whole thing. What do you think

> folks?

> Apple

>

> (example from angry letter:)

> The husband slugs his wife because she burned dinner,

> and THAT is HER part?????? She SHOULD be slugged for being so

> stupid...and I'm a woman! What she needs is NOT AA, but a good shelter

> and some

> intensive therapy.

>

> > Apple, I wanted to take a moment to thank you from the bottom of my

> heart

> > once again for you and your site. After reading that horrific letter

> which

> > is the kind of thing you must have thrown at you a lot..... well, I

> take my

> > hat off to you! Wow.

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated! If you're

> satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate

> of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere./click/678

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Like a sharpshooter pulls out a pistol for a gunfight, the AAs respond

" ohhh... bitterness... tsk tsk, not sober " and dismiss. Too bad for

them.

Apple

> Hi Apple,

> Hell look at all the smart people here who swallowed the AA BS for

> years. YOU ARE RIGHT ON TARGET WITH YOUR STUFF. If you ask me most of

> your detractors are as dumb as a sack of hammers. Not true, but I

> couldn't resist it.

>

> Actually brains don't really play into these scenarios since the

problem

> is not really lying in the speed or capacity of the human computer,

but

> in the tainted software it's running on. Your critics are merely

robots

> responding to your data in the fashion they were programmed to

respond.

> Many of the people you describe in abusive relationships are also

> suffering from bad programming. You offer a viable solution by

> encouraging people to reclaim their brains so that they need no longer

> live their lives like mindless automatons just because EVERYBODY

SEZ...............

>

> AA offers a lifetime of mindless servitude. Your site offers the

Freedom

> that AA only pays lip service to. Freedom is what this is all about,

and

> that's all I see on your site. AA drones see anger, resentment,

> blasphemy, bitterness, and sarcasm. They miss the point because they

> feel they have found the promised land, and have lost their ability to

> distinguish reality. They are steeped in fantasy as they await their

> next parking space courtesy of God.

> JOHN

>

[Guest guest]

Like a sharpshooter pulls out a pistol for a gunfight, the AAs respond

" ohhh... bitterness... tsk tsk, not sober " and dismiss. Too bad for

them.

Apple

> Hi Apple,

> Hell look at all the smart people here who swallowed the AA BS for

> years. YOU ARE RIGHT ON TARGET WITH YOUR STUFF. If you ask me most of

> your detractors are as dumb as a sack of hammers. Not true, but I

> couldn't resist it.

>

> Actually brains don't really play into these scenarios since the

problem

> is not really lying in the speed or capacity of the human computer,

but

> in the tainted software it's running on. Your critics are merely

robots

> responding to your data in the fashion they were programmed to

respond.

> Many of the people you describe in abusive relationships are also

> suffering from bad programming. You offer a viable solution by

> encouraging people to reclaim their brains so that they need no longer

> live their lives like mindless automatons just because EVERYBODY

SEZ...............

>

> AA offers a lifetime of mindless servitude. Your site offers the

Freedom

> that AA only pays lip service to. Freedom is what this is all about,

and

> that's all I see on your site. AA drones see anger, resentment,

> blasphemy, bitterness, and sarcasm. They miss the point because they

> feel they have found the promised land, and have lost their ability to

> distinguish reality. They are steeped in fantasy as they await their

> next parking space courtesy of God.

> JOHN

>

[Guest guest]

Like a sharpshooter pulls out a pistol for a gunfight, the AAs respond

" ohhh... bitterness... tsk tsk, not sober " and dismiss. Too bad for

them.

Apple

> Hi Apple,

> Hell look at all the smart people here who swallowed the AA BS for

> years. YOU ARE RIGHT ON TARGET WITH YOUR STUFF. If you ask me most of

> your detractors are as dumb as a sack of hammers. Not true, but I

> couldn't resist it.

>

> Actually brains don't really play into these scenarios since the

problem

> is not really lying in the speed or capacity of the human computer,

but

> in the tainted software it's running on. Your critics are merely

robots

> responding to your data in the fashion they were programmed to

respond.

> Many of the people you describe in abusive relationships are also

> suffering from bad programming. You offer a viable solution by

> encouraging people to reclaim their brains so that they need no longer

> live their lives like mindless automatons just because EVERYBODY

SEZ...............

>

> AA offers a lifetime of mindless servitude. Your site offers the

Freedom

> that AA only pays lip service to. Freedom is what this is all about,

and

> that's all I see on your site. AA drones see anger, resentment,

> blasphemy, bitterness, and sarcasm. They miss the point because they

> feel they have found the promised land, and have lost their ability to

> distinguish reality. They are steeped in fantasy as they await their

> next parking space courtesy of God.

> JOHN

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

Almost the same here. When I first read her site I thought that a person

with so much courage had to be a man.

Then I got confused about the powerful experiences and guessed Apple was

a woman. Right Apple?

She has now revealed that she is Hungarian. In Scandinavia Hungarians

have a big star. After the rebellion in 1956 a lot fled to Denmark,

where they have made a great contribution (without fuzz) to the Danish

society.

The Hungarian language is related to the Finnish language, and Finland

is a Scandinavian country.

In Scandinavia the Finns are known to be great sports and fighters

without fear.

They have 'sisu', which means something like 'never giving in but

fighting to the last drop of blood'. They are also known to drink large

quantities of pure alcohol and fight with knifes for fun. I love Finnish

jokes, this is one of my favorites:

" Jokke and Pekka was in Berlin during WW II. They had been doing the

town, and while they were sleeping the Allied Forces had bombed Berlin

into pieces.

Jokke waked up first and drew the curtains away.

Then he said: " Pekka, Pekka, get up we must leave in a hurry. This we

never can pay! " "

Apple, you are a true Finn Hungarian, my compliments.

Bjørn

rashley@... wrote:

>

> Apple,

I remember that when I first surfed into your de-prog. site I didn't

get this thing about being a man-hater. In truth I read over the site

and I thought it was written by a man. I still don't get where people

see a man hating issue.

I see an issue about having your brain in a carry box like the kind

you'd take a cat to the vet in.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> [Onvia.com. Work. Wisely.]

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> www. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi

Almost the same here. When I first read her site I thought that a person

with so much courage had to be a man.

Then I got confused about the powerful experiences and guessed Apple was

a woman. Right Apple?

She has now revealed that she is Hungarian. In Scandinavia Hungarians

have a big star. After the rebellion in 1956 a lot fled to Denmark,

where they have made a great contribution (without fuzz) to the Danish

society.

The Hungarian language is related to the Finnish language, and Finland

is a Scandinavian country.

In Scandinavia the Finns are known to be great sports and fighters

without fear.

They have 'sisu', which means something like 'never giving in but

fighting to the last drop of blood'. They are also known to drink large

quantities of pure alcohol and fight with knifes for fun. I love Finnish

jokes, this is one of my favorites:

" Jokke and Pekka was in Berlin during WW II. They had been doing the

town, and while they were sleeping the Allied Forces had bombed Berlin

into pieces.

Jokke waked up first and drew the curtains away.

Then he said: " Pekka, Pekka, get up we must leave in a hurry. This we

never can pay! " "

Apple, you are a true Finn Hungarian, my compliments.

Bjørn

rashley@... wrote:

>

> Apple,

I remember that when I first surfed into your de-prog. site I didn't

get this thing about being a man-hater. In truth I read over the site

and I thought it was written by a man. I still don't get where people

see a man hating issue.

I see an issue about having your brain in a carry box like the kind

you'd take a cat to the vet in.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> [Onvia.com. Work. Wisely.]

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> www. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi

Almost the same here. When I first read her site I thought that a person

with so much courage had to be a man.

Then I got confused about the powerful experiences and guessed Apple was

a woman. Right Apple?

She has now revealed that she is Hungarian. In Scandinavia Hungarians

have a big star. After the rebellion in 1956 a lot fled to Denmark,

where they have made a great contribution (without fuzz) to the Danish

society.

The Hungarian language is related to the Finnish language, and Finland

is a Scandinavian country.

In Scandinavia the Finns are known to be great sports and fighters

without fear.

They have 'sisu', which means something like 'never giving in but

fighting to the last drop of blood'. They are also known to drink large

quantities of pure alcohol and fight with knifes for fun. I love Finnish

jokes, this is one of my favorites:

" Jokke and Pekka was in Berlin during WW II. They had been doing the

town, and while they were sleeping the Allied Forces had bombed Berlin

into pieces.

Jokke waked up first and drew the curtains away.

Then he said: " Pekka, Pekka, get up we must leave in a hurry. This we

never can pay! " "

Apple, you are a true Finn Hungarian, my compliments.

Bjørn

rashley@... wrote:

>

> Apple,

I remember that when I first surfed into your de-prog. site I didn't

get this thing about being a man-hater. In truth I read over the site

and I thought it was written by a man. I still don't get where people

see a man hating issue.

I see an issue about having your brain in a carry box like the kind

you'd take a cat to the vet in.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> [Onvia.com. Work. Wisely.]

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> www. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

I just crack up everytime I see the reference to clever trousers. I

imagine this guy standing there on a street corner reading his BB with

his pockets pulled out thinking it makes his lower body look like a

bunny rabbit and hoping some naive little girl is going to be fooled.

> Rock on Judith! (, you rock too, the way you dismantled Clever

> Trousers)

> I will send this to the woman OK?

> big hug

> Apple