Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 > However, comfort yourself with the thought that even most AA'ers think Jim K. is a nut job, and have no interest in a 12-step church with Jim playing God/HeShe whatever.> Yes, that is comforting > So, if we want Jim K. to take a hike, we all need to make it clear to him that his efforts here will meet with total failure. Let's all say it loudly:> OK, I'm saying it along with Rita here: > " WE DON'T HAVE ANY INTEREST IN CONVERTING TO YOUR WACKADOO RELIGION OR JOINING YOUR WACKADOO CHURCH... JIM K., GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " > Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 > However, comfort yourself with the thought that even most AA'ers think Jim K. is a nut job, and have no interest in a 12-step church with Jim playing God/HeShe whatever.> Yes, that is comforting > So, if we want Jim K. to take a hike, we all need to make it clear to him that his efforts here will meet with total failure. Let's all say it loudly:> OK, I'm saying it along with Rita here: > " WE DON'T HAVE ANY INTEREST IN CONVERTING TO YOUR WACKADOO RELIGION OR JOINING YOUR WACKADOO CHURCH... JIM K., GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " > Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 > However, comfort yourself with the thought that even most AA'ers think Jim K. is a nut job, and have no interest in a 12-step church with Jim playing God/HeShe whatever.> Yes, that is comforting > So, if we want Jim K. to take a hike, we all need to make it clear to him that his efforts here will meet with total failure. Let's all say it loudly:> OK, I'm saying it along with Rita here: > " WE DON'T HAVE ANY INTEREST IN CONVERTING TO YOUR WACKADOO RELIGION OR JOINING YOUR WACKADOO CHURCH... JIM K., GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " > Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 > Judith, > I wonder if there is a way to keep Jim K. off of our list..after all, this list, as you said has a very specific purpose, and all are not welcome. I really don't know if there is a way to convey this to him: YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!> You'd think, wouldn't you, that this kind of direct language would do the trick. Let's see, how creative can I get? Skedaddle, wackadoo! Vamoose, you cactus-eatin varmint! High tail it, Hecubus! Judith having a little innocent fun... ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 Judith, I wonder if there is a way to keep Jim K. off of our list..after all, this list, as you said has a very specific purpose, and all are not welcome. I really don't know if there is a way to convey this to him: YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE!!!!!!!!!!!! SEAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 Judith Stillwater wrote: > > Imagine if a group of white supremacists, decked out in white robes and > pointed hoods, attended services at a church where most of the parish were > African American, or at a synagogue. It wouldn't matter how they behaved. > Just their presence would have a chilling effect, would make the rest of the > parishioners feel angry or scared or sad. That's how Jim K. affects me. > ---------------------------------- Hi Judith -- Yes, that's powerful imagery. I understand what you mean. However, comfort yourself with the thought that even most AA'ers think Jim K. is a nut job, and have no interest in a 12-step church with Jim playing God/HeShe whatever. He's a coward, I think... he only tries to evangelize to people he thinks are weak and vulnerable and that's why he's here -- if he's had little to no success getting AA'ers into his wackadoo church, he'll try for those disaffected with AA whom he perceives as " hungry " for his phony religion. It's quite interesting that he avoids me completely -- he knows full well that as a Jew, his 12-step religion and imagery strike me as idolatrous and completely contrary to the " self-will is G-d's gift to man " message of Torah and Talmud, and the chances of converting me are zero. So, if we want Jim K. to take a hike, we all need to make it clear to him that his efforts here will meet with total failure. Let's all say it loudly: " WE DON'T HAVE ANY INTEREST IN CONVERTING TO YOUR WACKADOO RELIGION OR JOINING YOUR WACKADOO CHURCH... JIM K., GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " ~Rita --------------------------------- > Normally I wouldn't talk about someone who is present as though they weren't > here. In Jim K's case I will make an exception. He seems to want to be > here, even though he knows this group represents the antithesis of his > beliefs. > > If I were to sum up my perception of the 12 steps and *A in one word, it > would be PUNISHMENT. I don't need more PUNISHMENT in my life. Speaking for > myself, I don't happen to think PUNISHMENT is a particularly effective means > of achieving a positive outcome. > > What makes me uncomfortable around Jim K is that he seems to want to save > us, or condemn us. This whole idea of " saving " someone is a matter of > perspective. Jim seems to think everyone would benefit from the 12 steps. > He wants to help people by putting the steps in their faces. To me, that is > not " saving. " That is PUNISHMENT. > > Since we as a group clearly don't want Jim's brand of " saving, " he needs to > condemn us. You see? There is no in-between, no room for those who don't > fit one extreme, " saved, " or the other, " condemned. " > > I've said this before but I think it bears repeating. I went to AA because > I thought it was the right thing to do. I wanted, and still want, to be a > good person. Going to AA did not make me a better person--if it had, I > would still be there. AA made me sadder and angrier. Not better. > > I am now coming back to what I believed before my coerced indoctrination > into the 12 steps, that I have the tools to be the best person I can be > within me. I don't need a religion or self help group. Rather, I *choose* > to be here, in 12 step free, because I recognize myself in others here. I > like that. I look around me here, see (I guess " read " would be the more > accurate word) people with whom I agree on some issues and disagree on > others. Regardless, I know I have something in common with almost everyone > here, and that is that the 12 steps made my life worse instead of better. > It is a comfortable place to be, perhaps in spite of, perhaps because of the > differing opinions. > > I want to believe the best about Jim K, but his coming here, where he is not > particularly welcome, and trying to save/punish us, doesn't seem like > something a good person would do. It seems interfering, mean spirited, > petty. Control freaky. Codependent. Jim does not possess the one > characteristic upon which this group, 12 step free, is based: a belief that > the 12 steps are not the best way for everyone to live. > > Imagine if a group of white supremacists, decked out in white robes and > pointed hoods, attended services at a church where most of the parish were > African American, or at a synagogue. It wouldn't matter how they behaved. > Just their presence would have a chilling effect, would make the rest of the > parishioners feel angry or scared or sad. That's how Jim K. affects me. > > I don't know why I'm obsessed with Jim K. He bothers me a lot. And it's > not because he makes me question what I believe. The opposite is true: Jim > K and *A have become a temporary lightening rod for my negative feelings > about myself. > > I'm afraid Jim K. will try to hurt me because I'm not willing to do what he > wants me to do: admit that my life has become unmanageable and that a higher > power can restore my life to sanity. I'm afraid he will try to punish me > somehow. So...I guess I do know why I'm obsessed with him. I'm confronting > my fear of punishment. > > Judith > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 Judith Stillwater wrote: > > Imagine if a group of white supremacists, decked out in white robes and > pointed hoods, attended services at a church where most of the parish were > African American, or at a synagogue. It wouldn't matter how they behaved. > Just their presence would have a chilling effect, would make the rest of the > parishioners feel angry or scared or sad. That's how Jim K. affects me. > ---------------------------------- Hi Judith -- Yes, that's powerful imagery. I understand what you mean. However, comfort yourself with the thought that even most AA'ers think Jim K. is a nut job, and have no interest in a 12-step church with Jim playing God/HeShe whatever. He's a coward, I think... he only tries to evangelize to people he thinks are weak and vulnerable and that's why he's here -- if he's had little to no success getting AA'ers into his wackadoo church, he'll try for those disaffected with AA whom he perceives as " hungry " for his phony religion. It's quite interesting that he avoids me completely -- he knows full well that as a Jew, his 12-step religion and imagery strike me as idolatrous and completely contrary to the " self-will is G-d's gift to man " message of Torah and Talmud, and the chances of converting me are zero. So, if we want Jim K. to take a hike, we all need to make it clear to him that his efforts here will meet with total failure. Let's all say it loudly: " WE DON'T HAVE ANY INTEREST IN CONVERTING TO YOUR WACKADOO RELIGION OR JOINING YOUR WACKADOO CHURCH... JIM K., GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " ~Rita --------------------------------- > Normally I wouldn't talk about someone who is present as though they weren't > here. In Jim K's case I will make an exception. He seems to want to be > here, even though he knows this group represents the antithesis of his > beliefs. > > If I were to sum up my perception of the 12 steps and *A in one word, it > would be PUNISHMENT. I don't need more PUNISHMENT in my life. Speaking for > myself, I don't happen to think PUNISHMENT is a particularly effective means > of achieving a positive outcome. > > What makes me uncomfortable around Jim K is that he seems to want to save > us, or condemn us. This whole idea of " saving " someone is a matter of > perspective. Jim seems to think everyone would benefit from the 12 steps. > He wants to help people by putting the steps in their faces. To me, that is > not " saving. " That is PUNISHMENT. > > Since we as a group clearly don't want Jim's brand of " saving, " he needs to > condemn us. You see? There is no in-between, no room for those who don't > fit one extreme, " saved, " or the other, " condemned. " > > I've said this before but I think it bears repeating. I went to AA because > I thought it was the right thing to do. I wanted, and still want, to be a > good person. Going to AA did not make me a better person--if it had, I > would still be there. AA made me sadder and angrier. Not better. > > I am now coming back to what I believed before my coerced indoctrination > into the 12 steps, that I have the tools to be the best person I can be > within me. I don't need a religion or self help group. Rather, I *choose* > to be here, in 12 step free, because I recognize myself in others here. I > like that. I look around me here, see (I guess " read " would be the more > accurate word) people with whom I agree on some issues and disagree on > others. Regardless, I know I have something in common with almost everyone > here, and that is that the 12 steps made my life worse instead of better. > It is a comfortable place to be, perhaps in spite of, perhaps because of the > differing opinions. > > I want to believe the best about Jim K, but his coming here, where he is not > particularly welcome, and trying to save/punish us, doesn't seem like > something a good person would do. It seems interfering, mean spirited, > petty. Control freaky. Codependent. Jim does not possess the one > characteristic upon which this group, 12 step free, is based: a belief that > the 12 steps are not the best way for everyone to live. > > Imagine if a group of white supremacists, decked out in white robes and > pointed hoods, attended services at a church where most of the parish were > African American, or at a synagogue. It wouldn't matter how they behaved. > Just their presence would have a chilling effect, would make the rest of the > parishioners feel angry or scared or sad. That's how Jim K. affects me. > > I don't know why I'm obsessed with Jim K. He bothers me a lot. And it's > not because he makes me question what I believe. The opposite is true: Jim > K and *A have become a temporary lightening rod for my negative feelings > about myself. > > I'm afraid Jim K. will try to hurt me because I'm not willing to do what he > wants me to do: admit that my life has become unmanageable and that a higher > power can restore my life to sanity. I'm afraid he will try to punish me > somehow. So...I guess I do know why I'm obsessed with him. I'm confronting > my fear of punishment. > > Judith > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 Judith Stillwater wrote: > > Imagine if a group of white supremacists, decked out in white robes and > pointed hoods, attended services at a church where most of the parish were > African American, or at a synagogue. It wouldn't matter how they behaved. > Just their presence would have a chilling effect, would make the rest of the > parishioners feel angry or scared or sad. That's how Jim K. affects me. > ---------------------------------- Hi Judith -- Yes, that's powerful imagery. I understand what you mean. However, comfort yourself with the thought that even most AA'ers think Jim K. is a nut job, and have no interest in a 12-step church with Jim playing God/HeShe whatever. He's a coward, I think... he only tries to evangelize to people he thinks are weak and vulnerable and that's why he's here -- if he's had little to no success getting AA'ers into his wackadoo church, he'll try for those disaffected with AA whom he perceives as " hungry " for his phony religion. It's quite interesting that he avoids me completely -- he knows full well that as a Jew, his 12-step religion and imagery strike me as idolatrous and completely contrary to the " self-will is G-d's gift to man " message of Torah and Talmud, and the chances of converting me are zero. So, if we want Jim K. to take a hike, we all need to make it clear to him that his efforts here will meet with total failure. Let's all say it loudly: " WE DON'T HAVE ANY INTEREST IN CONVERTING TO YOUR WACKADOO RELIGION OR JOINING YOUR WACKADOO CHURCH... JIM K., GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " ~Rita --------------------------------- > Normally I wouldn't talk about someone who is present as though they weren't > here. In Jim K's case I will make an exception. He seems to want to be > here, even though he knows this group represents the antithesis of his > beliefs. > > If I were to sum up my perception of the 12 steps and *A in one word, it > would be PUNISHMENT. I don't need more PUNISHMENT in my life. Speaking for > myself, I don't happen to think PUNISHMENT is a particularly effective means > of achieving a positive outcome. > > What makes me uncomfortable around Jim K is that he seems to want to save > us, or condemn us. This whole idea of " saving " someone is a matter of > perspective. Jim seems to think everyone would benefit from the 12 steps. > He wants to help people by putting the steps in their faces. To me, that is > not " saving. " That is PUNISHMENT. > > Since we as a group clearly don't want Jim's brand of " saving, " he needs to > condemn us. You see? There is no in-between, no room for those who don't > fit one extreme, " saved, " or the other, " condemned. " > > I've said this before but I think it bears repeating. I went to AA because > I thought it was the right thing to do. I wanted, and still want, to be a > good person. Going to AA did not make me a better person--if it had, I > would still be there. AA made me sadder and angrier. Not better. > > I am now coming back to what I believed before my coerced indoctrination > into the 12 steps, that I have the tools to be the best person I can be > within me. I don't need a religion or self help group. Rather, I *choose* > to be here, in 12 step free, because I recognize myself in others here. I > like that. I look around me here, see (I guess " read " would be the more > accurate word) people with whom I agree on some issues and disagree on > others. Regardless, I know I have something in common with almost everyone > here, and that is that the 12 steps made my life worse instead of better. > It is a comfortable place to be, perhaps in spite of, perhaps because of the > differing opinions. > > I want to believe the best about Jim K, but his coming here, where he is not > particularly welcome, and trying to save/punish us, doesn't seem like > something a good person would do. It seems interfering, mean spirited, > petty. Control freaky. Codependent. Jim does not possess the one > characteristic upon which this group, 12 step free, is based: a belief that > the 12 steps are not the best way for everyone to live. > > Imagine if a group of white supremacists, decked out in white robes and > pointed hoods, attended services at a church where most of the parish were > African American, or at a synagogue. It wouldn't matter how they behaved. > Just their presence would have a chilling effect, would make the rest of the > parishioners feel angry or scared or sad. That's how Jim K. affects me. > > I don't know why I'm obsessed with Jim K. He bothers me a lot. And it's > not because he makes me question what I believe. The opposite is true: Jim > K and *A have become a temporary lightening rod for my negative feelings > about myself. > > I'm afraid Jim K. will try to hurt me because I'm not willing to do what he > wants me to do: admit that my life has become unmanageable and that a higher > power can restore my life to sanity. I'm afraid he will try to punish me > somehow. So...I guess I do know why I'm obsessed with him. I'm confronting > my fear of punishment. > > Judith > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 WACKADOO....... GO AWAY.... (I like saying that better than " Serernity Now!!!) too bad Seinfeld's off the air, they could do a " doyouwackadoo??? segment " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 , how true. Nothing reinforces the life-changes I have made like reading drivel from the (sorry, can't help myself.....) WACKADOO... So wackaway, Jim K. And thank you for reminding me of just how sick it is out there in 12 step land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 Where is the listowner lately? Is he on vacation? He used to pitch people like Jim K. right off the list. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6888 > Normally I wouldn't talk about someone who is present as though they weren't > here. In Jim K's case I will make an exception. He seems to want to be > here, even though he knows this group represents the antithesis of his > beliefs. > > If I were to sum up my perception of the 12 steps and *A in one word, it > would be PUNISHMENT. I don't need more PUNISHMENT in my life. Speaking for > myself, I don't happen to think PUNISHMENT is a particularly effective means > of achieving a positive outcome. > > What makes me uncomfortable around Jim K is that he seems to want to save > us, or condemn us. This whole idea of " saving " someone is a matter of > perspective. Jim seems to think everyone would benefit from the 12 steps. > He wants to help people by putting the steps in their faces. To me, that is > not " saving. " That is PUNISHMENT. > > Since we as a group clearly don't want Jim's brand of " saving, " he needs to > condemn us. You see? There is no in-between, no room for those who don't > fit one extreme, " saved, " or the other, " condemned. " > > I've said this before but I think it bears repeating. I went to AA because > I thought it was the right thing to do. I wanted, and still want, to be a > good person. Going to AA did not make me a better person--if it had, I > would still be there. AA made me sadder and angrier. Not better. > > I am now coming back to what I believed before my coerced indoctrination > into the 12 steps, that I have the tools to be the best person I can be > within me. I don't need a religion or self help group. Rather, I *choose* > to be here, in 12 step free, because I recognize myself in others here. I > like that. I look around me here, see (I guess " read " would be the more > accurate word) people with whom I agree on some issues and disagree on > others. Regardless, I know I have something in common with almost everyone > here, and that is that the 12 steps made my life worse instead of better. > It is a comfortable place to be, perhaps in spite of, perhaps because of the > differing opinions. > > I want to believe the best about Jim K, but his coming here, where he is not > particularly welcome, and trying to save/punish us, doesn't seem like > something a good person would do. It seems interfering, mean spirited, > petty. Control freaky. Codependent. Jim does not possess the one > characteristic upon which this group, 12 step free, is based: a belief that > the 12 steps are not the best way for everyone to live. > > Imagine if a group of white supremacists, decked out in white robes and > pointed hoods, attended services at a church where most of the parish were > African American, or at a synagogue. It wouldn't matter how they behaved. > Just their presence would have a chilling effect, would make the rest of the > parishioners feel angry or scared or sad. That's how Jim K. affects me. > > I don't know why I'm obsessed with Jim K. He bothers me a lot. And it's > not because he makes me question what I believe. The opposite is true: Jim > K and *A have become a temporary lightening rod for my negative feelings > about myself. > > I'm afraid Jim K. will try to hurt me because I'm not willing to do what he > wants me to do: admit that my life has become unmanageable and that a higher > power can restore my life to sanity. I'm afraid he will try to punish me > somehow. So...I guess I do know why I'm obsessed with him. I'm confronting > my fear of punishment. > > Judith > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 kayleighs@... wrote: > > Where is the listowner lately? Is he on vacation? He used to pitch > people like Jim K. right off the list. I THINK IT'S TIME!!! He was entertaining for a while but the reruns are getting a trifle tedious. Funny though when you get right down to it he really is what this list is all about. We are all dedicated to openly sharing the damaging effects of Alcoholics Anonymous and exposing it for the pernicious cult it really is. Doesn't he do that every time he posts here, and doesn't he accomplish that on a truly grand scale every time someone lands in his website? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Hi Rio. I think Jim K is just " in the right place at the right time " for me. I am spending a lot of time this summer thinking about why I ever made the choice to try AA, how it became so damaging to me, I guess so I can learn to better protect myself in the future. I've gone off on him a lot, I think as a way of putting my feelings about AA in context. Part of me knows it's not good for me to put too much emphasis on Jim K, or on AA, or on anyone else by myself, in thinking about my life in the present. It's my life--the accountability is mine. But I do think that, in the short term, focusing these feelings on Jim K helps me to deal with them, sort them out, write about them, ultimately understand them. It's an opportunity for me to learn how not to feel sorry for someone who deserves no sympathy from me. I'd be happy if Jim K left, but as long as he's here, I'll use his presence to my advantage, and practice not being ashamed of that. Thanks for responding, Rio, I always appreciate what you have to say. Judith > > I haven't found this Jim K. guy a real threat to me; however, if he scares you that much, I'd rather he went away. Although we trail off now and then on other subjects, we get back to the business at hand which is looking at 12-step group and philosophies critically, and support people who want to get away from thinking their whole lives from a Big Book outlook. I've not responded directly to Mr K; I think the guys on this list do a bang-up job, myself.> ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Hi Rio. I think Jim K is just " in the right place at the right time " for me. I am spending a lot of time this summer thinking about why I ever made the choice to try AA, how it became so damaging to me, I guess so I can learn to better protect myself in the future. I've gone off on him a lot, I think as a way of putting my feelings about AA in context. Part of me knows it's not good for me to put too much emphasis on Jim K, or on AA, or on anyone else by myself, in thinking about my life in the present. It's my life--the accountability is mine. But I do think that, in the short term, focusing these feelings on Jim K helps me to deal with them, sort them out, write about them, ultimately understand them. It's an opportunity for me to learn how not to feel sorry for someone who deserves no sympathy from me. I'd be happy if Jim K left, but as long as he's here, I'll use his presence to my advantage, and practice not being ashamed of that. Thanks for responding, Rio, I always appreciate what you have to say. Judith > > I haven't found this Jim K. guy a real threat to me; however, if he scares you that much, I'd rather he went away. Although we trail off now and then on other subjects, we get back to the business at hand which is looking at 12-step group and philosophies critically, and support people who want to get away from thinking their whole lives from a Big Book outlook. I've not responded directly to Mr K; I think the guys on this list do a bang-up job, myself.> ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Hi Rio. I think Jim K is just " in the right place at the right time " for me. I am spending a lot of time this summer thinking about why I ever made the choice to try AA, how it became so damaging to me, I guess so I can learn to better protect myself in the future. I've gone off on him a lot, I think as a way of putting my feelings about AA in context. Part of me knows it's not good for me to put too much emphasis on Jim K, or on AA, or on anyone else by myself, in thinking about my life in the present. It's my life--the accountability is mine. But I do think that, in the short term, focusing these feelings on Jim K helps me to deal with them, sort them out, write about them, ultimately understand them. It's an opportunity for me to learn how not to feel sorry for someone who deserves no sympathy from me. I'd be happy if Jim K left, but as long as he's here, I'll use his presence to my advantage, and practice not being ashamed of that. Thanks for responding, Rio, I always appreciate what you have to say. Judith > > I haven't found this Jim K. guy a real threat to me; however, if he scares you that much, I'd rather he went away. Although we trail off now and then on other subjects, we get back to the business at hand which is looking at 12-step group and philosophies critically, and support people who want to get away from thinking their whole lives from a Big Book outlook. I've not responded directly to Mr K; I think the guys on this list do a bang-up job, myself.> ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Hi Judith, I haven't found this Jim K. guy a real threat to me; however, if he scares you that much, I'd rather he went away. Although we trail off now and then on other subjects, we get back to the business at hand which is looking at 12-step group and philosophies critically, and support people who want to get away from thinking their whole lives from a Big Book outlook. I've not responded directly to Mr K; I think the guys on this list do a bang-up job, myself. Jan punishment (long) >Normally I wouldn't talk about someone who is present as though they weren't >here. In Jim K's case I will make an exception. He seems to want to be >here, even though he knows this group represents the antithesis of his >beliefs. > >If I were to sum up my perception of the 12 steps and *A in one word, it >would be PUNISHMENT. I don't need more PUNISHMENT in my life. Speaking for >myself, I don't happen to think PUNISHMENT is a particularly effective means >of achieving a positive outcome. > >What makes me uncomfortable around Jim K is that he seems to want to save >us, or condemn us. This whole idea of " saving " someone is a matter of >perspective. Jim seems to think everyone would benefit from the 12 steps. >He wants to help people by putting the steps in their faces. To me, that is >not " saving. " That is PUNISHMENT. > >Since we as a group clearly don't want Jim's brand of " saving, " he needs to >condemn us. You see? There is no in-between, no room for those who don't >fit one extreme, " saved, " or the other, " condemned. " > >I've said this before but I think it bears repeating. I went to AA because >I thought it was the right thing to do. I wanted, and still want, to be a >good person. Going to AA did not make me a better person--if it had, I >would still be there. AA made me sadder and angrier. Not better. > >I am now coming back to what I believed before my coerced indoctrination >into the 12 steps, that I have the tools to be the best person I can be >within me. I don't need a religion or self help group. Rather, I *choose* >to be here, in 12 step free, because I recognize myself in others here. I >like that. I look around me here, see (I guess " read " would be the more >accurate word) people with whom I agree on some issues and disagree on >others. Regardless, I know I have something in common with almost everyone >here, and that is that the 12 steps made my life worse instead of better. >It is a comfortable place to be, perhaps in spite of, perhaps because of the >differing opinions. > >I want to believe the best about Jim K, but his coming here, where he is not >particularly welcome, and trying to save/punish us, doesn't seem like >something a good person would do. It seems interfering, mean spirited, >petty. Control freaky. Codependent. Jim does not possess the one >characteristic upon which this group, 12 step free, is based: a belief that >the 12 steps are not the best way for everyone to live. > >Imagine if a group of white supremacists, decked out in white robes and >pointed hoods, attended services at a church where most of the parish were >African American, or at a synagogue. It wouldn't matter how they behaved. >Just their presence would have a chilling effect, would make the rest of the >parishioners feel angry or scared or sad. That's how Jim K. affects me. > >I don't know why I'm obsessed with Jim K. He bothers me a lot. And it's >not because he makes me question what I believe. The opposite is true: Jim >K and *A have become a temporary lightening rod for my negative feelings >about myself. > >I'm afraid Jim K. will try to hurt me because I'm not willing to do what he >wants me to do: admit that my life has become unmanageable and that a higher >power can restore my life to sanity. I'm afraid he will try to punish me >somehow. So...I guess I do know why I'm obsessed with him. I'm confronting >my fear of punishment. > >Judith > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/630 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Hi Judith, I haven't found this Jim K. guy a real threat to me; however, if he scares you that much, I'd rather he went away. Although we trail off now and then on other subjects, we get back to the business at hand which is looking at 12-step group and philosophies critically, and support people who want to get away from thinking their whole lives from a Big Book outlook. I've not responded directly to Mr K; I think the guys on this list do a bang-up job, myself. Jan punishment (long) >Normally I wouldn't talk about someone who is present as though they weren't >here. In Jim K's case I will make an exception. He seems to want to be >here, even though he knows this group represents the antithesis of his >beliefs. > >If I were to sum up my perception of the 12 steps and *A in one word, it >would be PUNISHMENT. I don't need more PUNISHMENT in my life. Speaking for >myself, I don't happen to think PUNISHMENT is a particularly effective means >of achieving a positive outcome. > >What makes me uncomfortable around Jim K is that he seems to want to save >us, or condemn us. This whole idea of " saving " someone is a matter of >perspective. Jim seems to think everyone would benefit from the 12 steps. >He wants to help people by putting the steps in their faces. To me, that is >not " saving. " That is PUNISHMENT. > >Since we as a group clearly don't want Jim's brand of " saving, " he needs to >condemn us. You see? There is no in-between, no room for those who don't >fit one extreme, " saved, " or the other, " condemned. " > >I've said this before but I think it bears repeating. I went to AA because >I thought it was the right thing to do. I wanted, and still want, to be a >good person. Going to AA did not make me a better person--if it had, I >would still be there. AA made me sadder and angrier. Not better. > >I am now coming back to what I believed before my coerced indoctrination >into the 12 steps, that I have the tools to be the best person I can be >within me. I don't need a religion or self help group. Rather, I *choose* >to be here, in 12 step free, because I recognize myself in others here. I >like that. I look around me here, see (I guess " read " would be the more >accurate word) people with whom I agree on some issues and disagree on >others. Regardless, I know I have something in common with almost everyone >here, and that is that the 12 steps made my life worse instead of better. >It is a comfortable place to be, perhaps in spite of, perhaps because of the >differing opinions. > >I want to believe the best about Jim K, but his coming here, where he is not >particularly welcome, and trying to save/punish us, doesn't seem like >something a good person would do. It seems interfering, mean spirited, >petty. Control freaky. Codependent. Jim does not possess the one >characteristic upon which this group, 12 step free, is based: a belief that >the 12 steps are not the best way for everyone to live. > >Imagine if a group of white supremacists, decked out in white robes and >pointed hoods, attended services at a church where most of the parish were >African American, or at a synagogue. It wouldn't matter how they behaved. >Just their presence would have a chilling effect, would make the rest of the >parishioners feel angry or scared or sad. That's how Jim K. affects me. > >I don't know why I'm obsessed with Jim K. He bothers me a lot. And it's >not because he makes me question what I believe. The opposite is true: Jim >K and *A have become a temporary lightening rod for my negative feelings >about myself. > >I'm afraid Jim K. will try to hurt me because I'm not willing to do what he >wants me to do: admit that my life has become unmanageable and that a higher >power can restore my life to sanity. I'm afraid he will try to punish me >somehow. So...I guess I do know why I'm obsessed with him. I'm confronting >my fear of punishment. > >Judith > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/630 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Hi Judith, I haven't found this Jim K. guy a real threat to me; however, if he scares you that much, I'd rather he went away. Although we trail off now and then on other subjects, we get back to the business at hand which is looking at 12-step group and philosophies critically, and support people who want to get away from thinking their whole lives from a Big Book outlook. I've not responded directly to Mr K; I think the guys on this list do a bang-up job, myself. Jan punishment (long) >Normally I wouldn't talk about someone who is present as though they weren't >here. In Jim K's case I will make an exception. He seems to want to be >here, even though he knows this group represents the antithesis of his >beliefs. > >If I were to sum up my perception of the 12 steps and *A in one word, it >would be PUNISHMENT. I don't need more PUNISHMENT in my life. Speaking for >myself, I don't happen to think PUNISHMENT is a particularly effective means >of achieving a positive outcome. > >What makes me uncomfortable around Jim K is that he seems to want to save >us, or condemn us. This whole idea of " saving " someone is a matter of >perspective. Jim seems to think everyone would benefit from the 12 steps. >He wants to help people by putting the steps in their faces. To me, that is >not " saving. " That is PUNISHMENT. > >Since we as a group clearly don't want Jim's brand of " saving, " he needs to >condemn us. You see? There is no in-between, no room for those who don't >fit one extreme, " saved, " or the other, " condemned. " > >I've said this before but I think it bears repeating. I went to AA because >I thought it was the right thing to do. I wanted, and still want, to be a >good person. Going to AA did not make me a better person--if it had, I >would still be there. AA made me sadder and angrier. Not better. > >I am now coming back to what I believed before my coerced indoctrination >into the 12 steps, that I have the tools to be the best person I can be >within me. I don't need a religion or self help group. Rather, I *choose* >to be here, in 12 step free, because I recognize myself in others here. I >like that. I look around me here, see (I guess " read " would be the more >accurate word) people with whom I agree on some issues and disagree on >others. Regardless, I know I have something in common with almost everyone >here, and that is that the 12 steps made my life worse instead of better. >It is a comfortable place to be, perhaps in spite of, perhaps because of the >differing opinions. > >I want to believe the best about Jim K, but his coming here, where he is not >particularly welcome, and trying to save/punish us, doesn't seem like >something a good person would do. It seems interfering, mean spirited, >petty. Control freaky. Codependent. Jim does not possess the one >characteristic upon which this group, 12 step free, is based: a belief that >the 12 steps are not the best way for everyone to live. > >Imagine if a group of white supremacists, decked out in white robes and >pointed hoods, attended services at a church where most of the parish were >African American, or at a synagogue. It wouldn't matter how they behaved. >Just their presence would have a chilling effect, would make the rest of the >parishioners feel angry or scared or sad. That's how Jim K. affects me. > >I don't know why I'm obsessed with Jim K. He bothers me a lot. And it's >not because he makes me question what I believe. The opposite is true: Jim >K and *A have become a temporary lightening rod for my negative feelings >about myself. > >I'm afraid Jim K. will try to hurt me because I'm not willing to do what he >wants me to do: admit that my life has become unmanageable and that a higher >power can restore my life to sanity. I'm afraid he will try to punish me >somehow. So...I guess I do know why I'm obsessed with him. I'm confronting >my fear of punishment. > >Judith > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. >Start with up to 150 Points for joining! >http://clickhere./click/630 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Mr Jim K, >say it loudly: > > " WE DON'T HAVE ANY INTEREST IN CONVERTING TO YOUR WACKADOO >RELIGION OR JOINING YOUR WACKADOO CHURCH... JIM K., GO >AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " > (When I read this the tune to Pink Floyd's 'Another Brick in the Wall' comes to mind) Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Mr Jim K, >say it loudly: > > " WE DON'T HAVE ANY INTEREST IN CONVERTING TO YOUR WACKADOO >RELIGION OR JOINING YOUR WACKADOO CHURCH... JIM K., GO >AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " > (When I read this the tune to Pink Floyd's 'Another Brick in the Wall' comes to mind) Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Mr Jim K, >say it loudly: > > " WE DON'T HAVE ANY INTEREST IN CONVERTING TO YOUR WACKADOO >RELIGION OR JOINING YOUR WACKADOO CHURCH... JIM K., GO >AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " > (When I read this the tune to Pink Floyd's 'Another Brick in the Wall' comes to mind) Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Hi , I have folders on my Email Program set up for the different topics I receive stuff from and 'Inbox' handles all that can't be separated according to the guidelines I set up. 12 step free has its own folder. A few days ago I received in 'Inbox' an email from Jim K. Nothing on it but the email ads we all get from ergots at the bottom of our posts. So he's got our personal email addressees. I wonder if, by now, AA headquarters has copies of all our posts and is going to track us down personally at our homes. Re: punishment (long) > >kayleighs@... wrote: >> >> Where is the listowner lately? Is he on vacation? He used to pitch >> people like Jim K. right off the list. > >I THINK IT'S TIME!!! He was entertaining for a while but the reruns are >getting a trifle tedious. > >Funny though when you get right down to it he really is what this list >is all about. We are all dedicated to openly sharing the damaging >effects of Alcoholics Anonymous and exposing it for the pernicious cult >it really is. Doesn't he do that every time he posts here, and doesn't >he accomplish that on a truly grand scale every time someone lands in >his website? > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points, >NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online today! >http://clickhere./click/606 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Hi , I have folders on my Email Program set up for the different topics I receive stuff from and 'Inbox' handles all that can't be separated according to the guidelines I set up. 12 step free has its own folder. A few days ago I received in 'Inbox' an email from Jim K. Nothing on it but the email ads we all get from ergots at the bottom of our posts. So he's got our personal email addressees. I wonder if, by now, AA headquarters has copies of all our posts and is going to track us down personally at our homes. Re: punishment (long) > >kayleighs@... wrote: >> >> Where is the listowner lately? Is he on vacation? He used to pitch >> people like Jim K. right off the list. > >I THINK IT'S TIME!!! He was entertaining for a while but the reruns are >getting a trifle tedious. > >Funny though when you get right down to it he really is what this list >is all about. We are all dedicated to openly sharing the damaging >effects of Alcoholics Anonymous and exposing it for the pernicious cult >it really is. Doesn't he do that every time he posts here, and doesn't >he accomplish that on a truly grand scale every time someone lands in >his website? > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points, >NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online today! >http://clickhere./click/606 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 On Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:43:45 -0700 kayleighs@... wrote: > Where is the listowner lately? Is he on vacation? He used to pitch > people like Jim K. right off the list. > IIRC Ken has already pitched Jim off the list once and he's come back. You can write Ken at 12-step-free-owneregroups Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 I am puzzled by your comment. Why wouldn't he have our e-mail addresses? They appear on our posts. Unless you mean that you have 2, and one is an alias and he has found out what the other one is? <00db01bede6f$8fef18a0$4014fed-@mrsy> wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6942 > Hi , > > I have folders on my Email Program set up for the different topics I receive > stuff from and 'Inbox' handles all that can't be separated according to the > guidelines I set up. 12 step free has its own folder. A few days ago I > received in 'Inbox' an email from Jim K. Nothing on it but the email ads we > all get from ergots at the bottom of our posts. So he's got our personal > email addressees. I wonder if, by now, AA headquarters has copies of all > our posts and is going to track us down personally at our homes. > Re: punishment (long) > > > > > >kayleighs@... wrote: > >> > >> Where is the listowner lately? Is he on vacation? He used to pitch > >> people like Jim K. right off the list. > > > >I THINK IT'S TIME!!! He was entertaining for a while but the reruns are > >getting a trifle tedious. > > > >Funny though when you get right down to it he really is what this list > >is all about. We are all dedicated to openly sharing the damaging > >effects of Alcoholics Anonymous and exposing it for the pernicious cult > >it really is. Doesn't he do that every time he posts here, and doesn't > >he accomplish that on a truly grand scale every time someone lands in > >his website? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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