Re: Why socialism won't work -Healthcare bill comments -can't resist

April 8, 2010

and given that I have Blue Cross Blue Shield (GHI for out pt service) - it is a

GREAT coverage! What the Gov is offering is an HMO, AKA Medicare/Medicaid-like

program. Meaning - far from the quality of BCBS. Check how many good MDs, with

good credentials, experience and affiliation with the best hospitals nation-wide

are accepting it Vs. BCBS. It covered my orthoscopic Sx few years ago at the

hospital of Joint Dz with one of the top surgeons in NYC. And I had it done

within 2 wks (only bc I couldn't do it sooner!!) of the Dx. If I hadn't have it

- I would have had to wait for approval from Medicaid (for example) for 2 wks

just for me to go to MRI, then another 4 wks to approve Sx and another 6 wks to

approve my PT post op. Meanwhile - my knee would have been worsen, and after

op, waiting for PT approval would create scar tissues that will make it longer

to heel and possibly would not heel 100% bc I started PT too late and not right

after Sx as I did and they would approve only certain # of PT sessions. After

that - you are doomed.

So what your relative has is a great coverage and me and you are the ones paying

for it.Did he thank you lately for what you pay for him? that now he will give

you less then that?

Merav Levi, RD, MS, CDNhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/meravlevi

To: rd-usa

From: Milestonemn@...

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 20:54:03 -0400

Subject: Re: Why socialism won't work -Healthcare bill comments -can't

resist

Just to clarify, with a relative on Capitol Hill, I can tell you first hand

the Congress and White House have a Blue Cross Blue Shield plan The other

plan that was referenced ended in the late 70's

In a message dated 4/8/2010 10:17:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

pcharney@... writes:

Merav,

Each of the industrialized countries has a different method to manage

healthcare. Great Britain has the NHS. It's loved and hated by all;

but any time talk has begun to change or abolish it, folks get up in

arms. Don't take away their health care! France has an interesting

system that is a mix of public and private; again, there are

detractors, but when talk begins to do away with it, folks reply with

a resounding " No way " . Australia also has a mix of private and public.

I do know that in Australia new moms have home visits and all sorts of

support in place for the first few weeks at home, all courtesy of

their health plans. Try to convince an insurer here that new moms need

help with breastfeeding.

Now the former USSR being former, I can't comment. Our relationship

with Canada is interesting. First, physicians tend to like the

Canadian system; here, if you are going to be in private practice, you

start with a group of employees who have the one and only task -- to

navigate insurance plans. In the Canadian system, practices under the

national plan sometimes have a part time employee who does that task.

It's simpler. Now folks living near the borders go back and forth

depending on citizenship, needs, and ability to pay. When I lived in

upstate NY, there were bus lines that did weekly " medication " trips to

Canada to allow folks to purchase their medications at the much lower

prices available in Canada.

Typically the folks who come here from abroad for treatment are those

who can afford it. That's right, if they want say, a liver transplant

(as a Saudi prince did), and don't quite meet criteria in their own

country, they put together a suitcase full of cash and fly on over. If

the average Saudi citizen, lacking such resources, were to fly on over

here for a transplant and did not arrive with a suitcase of cash, he/

she would be politely turned away.

I'm sure we all have stories that support our views; there are

probably examples and n of 1 case studies that we all have to share.

There's a saying " Anecdotes don't equal data " .

I'd love for all of us to have the same coverage that Congress has.

Rather than deny adequate health care to over 40 million human beings

because I can't have what Congress has, I'd rather start at a point

where we begin to provide health care to those who need it and work

towards the ideal.

Pam Charney

pcharney@...

>

> If this bill is such a step in the right direction - how come people

> from all over the world are coming to the USA for major treatments/

> operations?How come, even the Canadian PM came here for Sx if the

> system she has is so wonderful?How come - if you ask every previous

> citizen of the former USSR will tell you how bad it was? And if it

> is so great - why the President and senators and other officials in

> Capitol HIll will have a different coverage?China is another story

> because they rely more on acupuncture then on western medicine.I

> hope, I really hope, I am wrong - but I think we will all be up for

> a rude awakening after 2014.

>

> Merav Levi, RD, MS, CDNhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/meravlevi

>

> > To: rd-usa

> > From: pcharney@...

> > Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 20:37:01 -0700

> > Subject: Re: Why socialism won't work -Healthcare bill

> comments -can't resist

> >

> > Madalyn,

> >

> > Agree whole heartedly. The bill is a step in the right direction.

> As a

> > moral and ethical nation we have an obligation to make sure that all

> > have access to the care they need. Unless we do that, we will

> continue

> > to provide inadequate care at exorbitant prices and get suboptimal

> > outcomes. I can't accept that as the best we can do.

> >

> > I have to admit to a certain amount of confusion regarding the

> ability

> > of some to equate school uniforms to socialism and the rest of the

> > ills of the world, but perhaps I just don't have the imagination I

> > thought I had.

> >

> > I retain my firm belief that the vast majority of those in need

> are in

> > that predicament for reasons beyond their control and would most

> > certainly not be out to scam the government for that $70 or

> whatnot in

> > aid they'd get. I can't look at others and make judgements without

> > knowing the facts. For example, I've worked with kids who have

> > multiple medical conditions. When well-managed, you'd never know

> what

> > their families go through to ensure that their child has the best

> > possible life. So, on the surface you'd see a child who looks

> > perfectly normal. However, that child might be followed by several

> > specialists, and have multiple medical conditions. When I worked in

> > South Chicago I once commented to our clinic social worker that my

> > patients had better cell phones than I did. Well, it turns out that

> > many folks had cell phones because they were cheaper than land

> lines,

> > didn't require an up front deposit and could be a pay as you go

> event.

> >

> > So, I refuse to make snap judgements unless I have enough

> information

> > to come to a reasonable conclusion.

> >

> > Warmest regards,

> > pam

> >

> > Pam Charney

> > pcharney@...

> >

> > > Diane,

> > >

> > > I certainly appreciate your comments and those of the others who

> > > have joined in this thread.

> > >

> > > The Health Care Reform Bill is far from perfect, but I believe

> that

> > > it is a step in the right direction. The status of health care in

> > > this country is shameful. We are supposedly one of the richest

> > > nations and yet we have so many poor health outcomes.

> > >

> > > The population I work with are mostly indigent and many are

> homeless

> > > and have not had access to good or adequate or early intervention

> > > health care, if they had they might not arrive at my facility in

> the

> > > depleted nutritional state they do.

> > >

> > > I did not read contention in your emails. I do agree that emails

> > > leave much to be desired and face to face conversations are more

> > > satisfying.

> > >

> > > Madalyn

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > >

> > > To: rd-usa

> > > Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 9:24:19 PM

> > > Subject: Re: Why socialism won't work -Healthcare bill

> > > comments -can't resist

> > >

> > > But the children received a reward for their optional contribution

> > > to those less fortunate whereas those who don't participate in

> > > mandatory healthcare will be penalized. I'm sure the students are

> > > learning many good things from the project and in their school. No

> > > argument there. But as usual, I believe the devil IS in the

> details

> > > and that is what makes the healthcare reform so questionable.

> > >

> > > You make many good points and I appreciate the conversation you

> have

> > > agreed to have here, Madalyn. E-mail messaging leaves much to be

> > > desired, so I hope I have not seemed contentious to your points.

> > > Just contributing to an important conversation with many, many

> > > facets to it. I am appreciating everyone's input.

> > >

> > > Respectfully,

> > > Diane Preves

> > >

> > > Re: Why socialism won't work -Healthcare bill

> > > comments -can't resist

> > >

> > > Okay, can't resist. . . ;-)

> > >

> > > Aren't uniforms about equalizing all the kids - those that can't

> > > afford

> > > expensive clothing aren't set apart from those that can. . . a

> nice

> > > socialist

> > > thing. . . equalize all the students/citizenshi p by requiring

> > > uniforms . .

> > > . people judge based on personality rather than clothing. You'll

> > > tend to

> > > strive to become more of an individual.

> > >

> > > Your granddaughter already has the capitalism mindset right. . .

> work

> > > hard, pay for what you want - if you want to wear denim, you can

> pay

> > > extra for

> > > the right.

> > >

> > > The poor kids that can't afford the $5 aren't allowed to wear

> denim to

> > > school. Work hard to get what we want . . . just the exact post I

> > > started out

> > > with!

> > >

> > > Jan ;-)

> > >

> > > PS. Truly, if you look at the history of the world, socialism just

> > > doesn't

> > > work. Never has. It breeds tyranical governments and limits

> > > individuality.

> > > Think it works? - ask people from China, Venezuala, Cuba or Russia

> > > why they

> > > want to come to the US. Millions of veterans have died

> protecting our

> > > constitution so we wouldn't have to be socialists. But, that's

> what

> > > our

> > > current admin is trying to lead us into. Again, the heatlh care

> bill

> > > wasn't about

> > > health - it was about government control of the people. (Talk to

> an

> > > informed vet if you want more details.)

> > >

> > > In a message dated 4/5/2010 12:46:19 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,

> > > mffrd10019yahoo (DOT) com writes:

> > >

> > > Diane,

> > >

> > > I read that you have taught your children the importance of being

> > > responsible citizens. I taught mine and am very pleased to see my

> > > grandchildren

> > > being given the same messages. My 14 year old granddaughter just

> > > made a

> > > proposal to the Headmaster of her school to allow the students to

> > > wear denim one

> > > day (they wear uniforms) and charge $5 for this privilege with the

> > > money

> > > collected going to help the victims of the earthquake in Haiti.

> The

> > > Headmaster responded that although he was against wearing denim in

> > > school he was so

> > > impressed with her proposal he had to agree. 120 students raised

> over

> > > $600.

> > > Gratefully there are future generations who will be at the front

> of

> > > the

> > > line teaching values and responsiblity to those whose parents were

> > > from the

> > > 'me' instant gratification generation and did not have the ability

> > > to teach

> > > their children what you have taught yours.

> > >

> > > Madalyn

> > >

> > > Jan Patenaude, RD, CLT

> > > Consultant, Writer, Speaker

> > > Director of Medical Nutrition

> > > Signet Diagnostic Corporation

> > > (Mountain Time)

> > > Fax:

> > > DineRight4aol (DOT) com

> > >

> > > " Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can

> > > start

> > > from now and make a brand new ending. "

> > > ~Carl Bard

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > >

April 8, 2010

Let me take it to an " extreme " - Hanibal Lecter, in the Silence of the LAmb

says: " how do we begin to covet? when we see what our neighbors have " ...now - is

that means that just because others have more we have to become serial killers

(Buffalo Bill in the movie).Is that means that we all should ware Wrangler

jeans, plaid tops and boots or same sneakers? If we don't want the better things

our society offers we will not strive to get them (hopefully in a legal way,

assuming we area descent people who plan to get it by working hard).Is that mean

that if I treat my daughter once in a blue moon to an item at Barnies (Sale

price, only!! I am not that crazy or fortunate) - I have to get something of

equal value to an unfortunate kid?Giving things doesn't make it better for the

poor and unfortunate, it makes the rich and fortunate feel better about

themselves. I said it before, I know.

Merav Levi, RD, MS, CDNhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/meravlevi

To: rd-usa

From: mffrd10019@...

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:17:20 -0700

Subject: Re: Why socialism won't work -Healthcare bill comments -can't

resist

Pam,

You reminded me of the following.

When my children were young we decided to host Fresh Air Kids. This was a

program sponsored by a New York City newspaper. The idea was to get inner city

kids out of the city for a summer vacation either at a Fresh Air sponsored camp

or at host families in the suburbs.

We did this for many years with varied experiences.

1. A boy who came with more and nicer clothing than my sons, and whose father

drove a nicer car than we did. Turned out, his mother spent most of her food

money to buy him the new clothes so he would look nice for us. His father drove

people to the airport and so the nice car. This child was a part of our family

for many years.

2. A girl who when I asked her what she would like for dinner replied 'steak'.

Sometime later I asked what her mother usually made for dinner and she told me

'cereal but sometimes when we are shopping she puts a steak under her shirt when

no one is looking so we can have meat'.

3. A girl whose family had a beautiful home, a gas grill (we still had a cheap

charcoal grill) and whose parents both had steady civil service jobs. Turned

out, they had been in need many years before and their older children had been

Fresh Air Kids. Now that they were no longer in need they still thought it was a

good way to get their daughter out of the city for 2 weeks.

There are people who take advantage of the system and people who need the

system. This will probably never change.

The school uniform discussion is one I did not understand.

Madalyn

________________________________

To: rd-usa

Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 11:37:01 PM

Subject: Re: Why socialism won't work -Healthcare bill comments -can't

resist

Madalyn,

Agree whole heartedly. The bill is a step in the right direction. As a

moral and ethical nation we have an obligation to make sure that all

have access to the care they need. Unless we do that, we will continue

to provide inadequate care at exorbitant prices and get suboptimal

outcomes. I can't accept that as the best we can do.

I have to admit to a certain amount of confusion regarding the ability

of some to equate school uniforms to socialism and the rest of the

ills of the world, but perhaps I just don't have the imagination I

thought I had.

I retain my firm belief that the vast majority of those in need are in

that predicament for reasons beyond their control and would most

certainly not be out to scam the government for that $70 or whatnot in

aid they'd get. I can't look at others and make judgements without

knowing the facts. For example, I've worked with kids who have

multiple medical conditions. When well-managed, you'd never know what

their families go through to ensure that their child has the best

possible life. So, on the surface you'd see a child who looks

perfectly normal. However, that child might be followed by several

specialists, and have multiple medical conditions. When I worked in

South Chicago I once commented to our clinic social worker that my

patients had better cell phones than I did. Well, it turns out that

many folks had cell phones because they were cheaper than land lines,

didn't require an up front deposit and could be a pay as you go event.

So, I refuse to make snap judgements unless I have enough information

to come to a reasonable conclusion.

Warmest regards,

pam

Pam Charney

pcharney@...

> Diane,

>

> I certainly appreciate your comments and those of the others who

> have joined in this thread.

>

> The Health Care Reform Bill is far from perfect, but I believe that

> it is a step in the right direction. The status of health care in

> this country is shameful. We are supposedly one of the richest

> nations and yet we have so many poor health outcomes.

>

> The population I work with are mostly indigent and many are homeless

> and have not had access to good or adequate or early intervention

> health care, if they had they might not arrive at my facility in the

> depleted nutritional state they do.

>

> I did not read contention in your emails. I do agree that emails

> leave much to be desired and face to face conversations are more

> satisfying.

>

> Madalyn

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: rd-usa

> Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 9:24:19 PM

> Subject: Re: Why socialism won't work -Healthcare bill

> comments -can't resist

>

> But the children received a reward for their optional contribution

> to those less fortunate whereas those who don't participate in

> mandatory healthcare will be penalized. I'm sure the students are

> learning many good things from the project and in their school. No

> argument there. But as usual, I believe the devil IS in the details

> and that is what makes the healthcare reform so questionable.

>

> You make many good points and I appreciate the conversation you have

> agreed to have here, Madalyn. E-mail messaging leaves much to be

> desired, so I hope I have not seemed contentious to your points.

> Just contributing to an important conversation with many, many

> facets to it. I am appreciating everyone's input.

>

> Respectfully,

> Diane Preves

>

> Re: Why socialism won't work -Healthcare bill

> comments -can't resist

>

> Okay, can't resist. . . ;-)

>

> Aren't uniforms about equalizing all the kids - those that can't

> afford

> expensive clothing aren't set apart from those that can. . . a nice

> socialist

> thing. . . equalize all the students/citizenshi p by requiring

> uniforms . .

> . people judge based on personality rather than clothing. You'll

> tend to

> strive to become more of an individual.

>

> Your granddaughter already has the capitalism mindset right. . . work

> hard, pay for what you want - if you want to wear denim, you can pay

> extra for

> the right.

>

> The poor kids that can't afford the $5 aren't allowed to wear denim to

> school. Work hard to get what we want . . . just the exact post I

> started out

> with!

>

> Jan ;-)

>

> PS. Truly, if you look at the history of the world, socialism just

> doesn't

> work. Never has. It breeds tyranical governments and limits

> individuality.

> Think it works? - ask people from China, Venezuala, Cuba or Russia

> why they

> want to come to the US. Millions of veterans have died protecting our

> constitution so we wouldn't have to be socialists. But, that's what

> our

> current admin is trying to lead us into. Again, the heatlh care bill

> wasn't about

> health - it was about government control of the people. (Talk to an

> informed vet if you want more details.)

>

> In a message dated 4/5/2010 12:46:19 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,

> mffrd10019yahoo (DOT) com writes:

>

> Diane,

>

> I read that you have taught your children the importance of being

> responsible citizens. I taught mine and am very pleased to see my

> grandchildren

> being given the same messages. My 14 year old granddaughter just

> made a

> proposal to the Headmaster of her school to allow the students to

> wear denim one

> day (they wear uniforms) and charge $5 for this privilege with the

> money

> collected going to help the victims of the earthquake in Haiti. The

> Headmaster responded that although he was against wearing denim in

> school he was so

> impressed with her proposal he had to agree. 120 students raised over

> $600.

> Gratefully there are future generations who will be at the front of

> the

> line teaching values and responsiblity to those whose parents were

> from the

> 'me' instant gratification generation and did not have the ability

> to teach

> their children what you have taught yours.

>

> Madalyn

>

> Jan Patenaude, RD, CLT

> Consultant, Writer, Speaker

> Director of Medical Nutrition

> Signet Diagnostic Corporation

> (Mountain Time)

> Fax:

> DineRight4aol (DOT) com

>

> " Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can

> start

> from now and make a brand new ending. "

> ~Carl Bard

>

April 8, 2010