Re: secrets()

July 28, 1999

Hi ;

Good to hear from you again. Wondered what had become of you.

Twelve Step groups told us we could not stay sober without them.

For that to backlash on us when we break free isn't surprising. Old

habits die hard.

A real nitty gritty problem with breaking away is finding new friends

and contacts who are not associated with 12steps. It can get

lonely for a while. My AA experience even hampered my making

friends outside AA because I believed I couldn't have friends who

drank. After a while I learned that I could have friends who drank,

but not those who were addicted to alcohol and actively using.

After I made the first couple of new friends it got a lot easier. Then

I quit judging folks by AA standards and making new

acquaintences is no real problem.

For me time was the big factor. Time to make new habits, new

friends and a new/old viewpoint on things.

July 28, 1999

Hi ;

Good to hear from you again. Wondered what had become of you.

Twelve Step groups told us we could not stay sober without them.

For that to backlash on us when we break free isn't surprising. Old

habits die hard.

A real nitty gritty problem with breaking away is finding new friends

and contacts who are not associated with 12steps. It can get

lonely for a while. My AA experience even hampered my making

friends outside AA because I believed I couldn't have friends who

drank. After a while I learned that I could have friends who drank,

but not those who were addicted to alcohol and actively using.

After I made the first couple of new friends it got a lot easier. Then

I quit judging folks by AA standards and making new

acquaintences is no real problem.

For me time was the big factor. Time to make new habits, new

friends and a new/old viewpoint on things.

July 28, 1999

Hi ;

Good to hear from you again. Wondered what had become of you.

Twelve Step groups told us we could not stay sober without them.

For that to backlash on us when we break free isn't surprising. Old

habits die hard.

A real nitty gritty problem with breaking away is finding new friends

and contacts who are not associated with 12steps. It can get

lonely for a while. My AA experience even hampered my making

friends outside AA because I believed I couldn't have friends who

drank. After a while I learned that I could have friends who drank,

but not those who were addicted to alcohol and actively using.

After I made the first couple of new friends it got a lot easier. Then

I quit judging folks by AA standards and making new

acquaintences is no real problem.

For me time was the big factor. Time to make new habits, new

friends and a new/old viewpoint on things.

July 28, 1999

,

Thanks for the support. I actually have alot to keep me busy. I am on

the board of my local UU church. However, an AA sponsor told me that addicts

are too sick to do anything but serve AA. He told me to give up all my

political and spritual groups.

Stuped me, at that time I listened.

So once again, it is good to here the message that it would actaully be

helpful to persue my interests. I know these things, but, again, given the

extent of my 12 step involvement, it doen't hurt to ' hear " it form another

who has been successful with 12 step free living.

Sober and still 12 step free,

July 28, 1999

,

Thanks for the support. I actually have alot to keep me busy. I am on

the board of my local UU church. However, an AA sponsor told me that addicts

are too sick to do anything but serve AA. He told me to give up all my

political and spritual groups.

Stuped me, at that time I listened.

So once again, it is good to here the message that it would actaully be

helpful to persue my interests. I know these things, but, again, given the

extent of my 12 step involvement, it doen't hurt to ' hear " it form another

who has been successful with 12 step free living.

Sober and still 12 step free,

July 28, 1999

, I don' t get anything when you post. kathy

July 28, 1999

, I don' t get anything when you post. kathy

July 28, 1999

,

About 3-4 years in my AA life, I took a 9-month intensive Bible study course

which consumed alot of time and when I told AA'ers about it, I got the same

sort of disapproving look my mother used to give me when she told me not to

stick my little fingers in the electric outlet and I kind of dared to

attempt to. All they lacked were the hands on the hips. You can't even

converse lightly with them about your life outside of AA - everything that

takes away from a meeting is frowned upon.

Jan

Re: secrets()

>,

> Thanks for the support. I actually have alot to keep me busy. I am on

>the board of my local UU church. However, an AA sponsor told me that

addicts

>are too sick to do anything but serve AA. He told me to give up all my

>political and spritual groups.

>Stuped me, at that time I listened.

> So once again, it is good to here the message that it would actaully

be

>helpful to persue my interests. I know these things, but, again, given the

>extent of my 12 step involvement, it doen't hurt to ' hear " it form another

>who has been successful with 12 step free living.

>Sober and still 12 step free,

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,

>NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online today!

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> - Simplifying group communications

>

July 28, 1999

Oh, , how dreadful. I was told the same thing, and in fact, found

out that if I did what AA wanted me to do, I wouldn't have the time to

make social contributions such as yours. In my opinion, anything that

keeps you busy, useful and happpy (such as AA, I guess, is supposed to

do) is a great antidote to drinking.

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6524

> ,

> Thanks for the support. I actually have alot to keep me busy. I

am on

> the board of my local UU church. However, an AA sponsor told me that

addicts

> are too sick to do anything but serve AA. He told me to give up all

my

> political and spritual groups.

> Stuped me, at that time I listened.

> So once again, it is good to here the message that it would

actaully be

> helpful to persue my interests. I know these things, but, again,

given the

> extent of my 12 step involvement, it doen't hurt to ' hear " it form

another

> who has been successful with 12 step free living.

> Sober and still 12 step free,

>

July 28, 1999

Oh, , how dreadful. I was told the same thing, and in fact, found

out that if I did what AA wanted me to do, I wouldn't have the time to

make social contributions such as yours. In my opinion, anything that

keeps you busy, useful and happpy (such as AA, I guess, is supposed to

do) is a great antidote to drinking.

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6524

> ,

> Thanks for the support. I actually have alot to keep me busy. I

am on

> the board of my local UU church. However, an AA sponsor told me that

addicts

> are too sick to do anything but serve AA. He told me to give up all

my

> political and spritual groups.

> Stuped me, at that time I listened.

> So once again, it is good to here the message that it would

actaully be

> helpful to persue my interests. I know these things, but, again,

given the

> extent of my 12 step involvement, it doen't hurt to ' hear " it form

another

> who has been successful with 12 step free living.

> Sober and still 12 step free,

>

July 29, 1999

Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups

From: UUSEAN@...

Date sent: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:19:51 EDT

To: 12-step-freeegroups

Subject: Re: secrets()

> ,

> Thanks for the support. I actually have alot to keep me busy. I am on

> the board of my local UU church. However, an AA sponsor told me that addicts

> are too sick to do anything but serve AA. He told me to give up all my

> political and spritual groups.

> Stuped me, at that time I listened.

> So once again, it is good to here the message that it would actaully be

> helpful to persue my interests. I know these things, but, again, given the

> extent of my 12 step involvement, it doen't hurt to ' hear " it form another

> who has been successful with 12 step free living.

> Sober and still 12 step free,

>

Hi ;

Nah, you weren't stupid, you got conned just like most of us. We

believed that's all.

Don't fear any challenge you want to undertake because of

alcoholism. Glad to hear you have you church for socializing and

being on The Board ought to be a big boost. Folks consider you

honest and responsible, or you wouldn't be there! Good Job!

A man I've known for nearly 40 years who's liked by nearly all that

know him, because he is so laid back in the face of serious

problems, once told me " don't be so damned hard on

yourself, give yourself the same breaks you give other folks! " It's

good advice, I can even do it sometimes 8^)

As to that secrets thing, it's bull in my opinion. First off it's

subjective, as to what secrets are sick and what ones aren't and

the implication is that a " Well Person " has no secrets. AA tries to

get you to dump it on the table. I for one don't think this is a great

idea. If I don't want something to be known and I tell it anyway,

what's to prevent those nice folks from using it as a stick to beat

me with. Hell they used everything else to whip on me, why hand

them a stick the don't know about?

There may be someone in our life who needs to know, but who

needs and how much they need, is up to us.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,

> NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online today!

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>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

July 29, 1999

Hi Jan,

What you say about meetings is true, but I usually got the same response

from sponsors. Interestingly, all but two of my previous sponsors have

dropped out of AA,sober. only a couple of people in my church know of my

trouble with booze (those I told.) I have missed no church meetings, and

because I have tended to be a " binger " it was easy to keep my drinking under

wraps. Will I perform better w/o periodic all nighters with booze or drugs?

I think so. More important, I won't have morning afters to clean up and

cover up from. Am I grateful that booze didn't get a chance to take away all

the good in my life? You bet. You know what? AAers have told me this means I

am not " ready.' You know what? I'm staying sober for me, those I love and

the church I love. No aplolgies for not " hitting a deep enough bottem!

July 29, 1999

Hi,

I am hitting a different button on my email when I post. I don't know if

the problem is with my computer or AOL. I thinhitting " reply all " for all

email seems to do the trick. Please let me know if the problem persists.

July 29, 1999

Hi ,

Thanks to you all and all have posted in response to my " sick as your

secrets question. " I feel as though AA has helped to make me overly self

doubtful..However, I am taking steps to put one foot in front of the other,

and move through it. Sharing there " AA programs " with this list does help in

that you know what i'm talking about.

I know that comparaing AA to other cults has it's limits, but I would think

that those leaving Scientology for example would have an easier time getting

over it by talking to other Scientologists.

Finally, , while I know I'm not you, and you are not me, it is reassusing

to hear your story, someone who got sober after leaving AA.

Thanks,

July 30, 1999

Hi ;

The bottom is where YOU put it. This is a serious story. I knew a

guy named Jim. When he sobered up he owned a 2 year old

Cadillac car and a Gold Omega watch. He got the same stuff you

did, so he took to parking the car six blocks or so from meeting

sites and putting his watch in his pocket when he came to

meetings. I met him after he was about 5 years sober and he told

that story quite often. I don't really know if it ever occurred to him

that the " Rigorous Honesty " of AA was BS and his story alone was

proof enough, but I would guess he did not.

This type of dishonesty to comply with The Group's norms and

mores is inherit in the group concept. That's why when you hear

" Find a group your comfortable with " it really means one you can

comply with. This attempting to comply with The Group's ideals,

norms and mores is what gets us in trouble, especially when we

begin to see what I call " The Dark Side " of any group. By that I

mean the predators that hang in the clubhouses, the men who

batter their wives and I think " Doesn't anybody see this? " It took

me years to realize, everyone knew it, but none said anything

about it. Unfortunately the " None " included me.

In reality that is your Sponsor's job. That is to tell you what is

acceptable to the group. The sponsor trains a person in the

mores, norms and ideals of the group. His first job is to get

accross to you that you are nothing and the group is All. If you

object that The Local Guru beats his wife, you'll be told to take

your own inventory, because he's been sober umpteen years and

you haven't. Any of this sound familiar?

I am always, I mean Always, told " It's too bad you had that

experience in that group " meaning it was an isolated incident. My

experience with AA covers more groups than I can figure right now

and in Iowa, Illinois, Nebraska, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and a

couple of groups in Minnesota. I met Clarence in 1960 at The Top

of Texas group in Amarillo. He was AA #3. I went to my first

meeting a bit over 40 years ago and have been around the AA

block a few times.

Don't make the mistake I did and allow the group to dictate what is

correct and what is not, because they don't have a clue. The

groups morals or lack of them and The Group's thoughts become

so ingrained in the person they believe they were their own

thoughts originally. If The Chinese Communists were doing it we'd

call it Brainwashing, here we call it treatment.

the only " Group's Conscience " you and I are really

answerable to, is the old kids saying about the group of three, Me,

Myself and I. The group relies on a " Typical Alcoholic " , Well as

the farmer said when he saw The Giraffe, " There ain't no such

animal "

Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups

From: UUSEAN@...

Date sent: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:27:26 EDT

To: 12-step-freeegroups

Subject: Re: secrets()

> Hi Jan,

> What you say about meetings is true, but I usually got the same response

> from sponsors. Interestingly, all but two of my previous sponsors have

> dropped out of AA,sober. only a couple of people in my church know of my

> trouble with booze (those I told.) I have missed no church meetings, and

> because I have tended to be a " binger " it was easy to keep my drinking under

> wraps. Will I perform better w/o periodic all nighters with booze or drugs?

> I think so. More important, I won't have morning afters to clean up and

> cover up from. Am I grateful that booze didn't get a chance to take away all

> the good in my life? You bet. You know what? AAers have told me this means I

> am not " ready.' You know what? I'm staying sober for me, those I love and

> the church I love. No aplolgies for not " hitting a deep enough bottem!

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req.

> Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS at checkout

> http://clickhere./click/615

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

July 30, 1999

HI , folks

You regularly seem to post mails in pairs, one containing

the message, the other blank. What I suspect may be

happening is that youre P#C is infected with the happy.exe

virus. This works by sending a second mail to with every

mail you send, including itself as an attachment. The

egroups server is probably stripping off the attachment,

more because its flaky than as security. anyway, it might

be an idea to check your PC for this virus , theres a

hell of a lot of it around at the moment.

Cyber transmitted infections are nothing to be ashamed of...

Pete

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,

> NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online today!

> http://clickhere./click/606

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

Pete Watts

Owner

PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm

PD Personality Disorders Discussion

July 30, 1999

On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:01:04 -0600 D Hall

wrote:

>

> In reality that is your Sponsor's job. That is to tell you what is

> acceptable to the group. The sponsor trains a person in the

> mores, norms and ideals of the group.

My Sponsors wanted to train mne in the mores, norms and

ideals of themselves!

Pete

July 31, 1999

,

This post of yours should be save for posterity. I'm serious, it just about

took my breath away, it touched so close to home and brought out the sights

and sounds of a typical AA meeting. All the excuses and all the expressions

of denial. Another AA twist. If you don't come to meetings and get the

message ingrained, you are in denial. But when you bring up an ugly aspect

of the 'fellowship', you hear the same expressions of denial. In other

words, as an individual you are not allowed to deny. But as a group and

speaking for the group, you can.

Makes me so angry and yet so heartbroken how my husband and his actions are

overlooked because he is still in AA yet I'm chopped liver.

Also, an update on my divorce. My husband filed in June for divorce.

Originally he just wanted us to have a do-it-yourself divorce, because 'I

still want us to be friends and if we get lawyers involved, it'll just turn

into a pissing contest.' We have real estate that needs to be settled and

he wants us to just sell the property and use the equity to pay our bills,

3/4 are his business bills and his Social Security he owes IRS. I said go

ahead if you want a do it your divorce, do it your way - as for me, I'm

getting a mouthpiece to watch over me and my interests. So he finally

retained a lawyer (AA female). His complaint again was whiny 'claimed he

contributed just about everything to the upkeep, maintenance, etc. to our

marital things.' and other things, about 13 points. I then retained my own

lawyer, typed her a list of points I disputed. My husband's complaint was

about 4 pages long - we sent back a 2-paragraph reply just this week:

" Defendant alleges items 1 2 3 4 5 are correct. Defendant denies items 6,

7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and demands strict proof thereof. " Short and sweet.

That'll keep hubby busy for a time. This time he is not getting what he

wants so easy. He pulled the do it yourself with his first wife and ended

up getting full custody of their son. He intimidated her, telling her he'd

bring up her going out on him and other ugly stuff, if she didn't go along.

She was to have paid about 100 a month for child support and has not been

paying since 1990. He has made no attempt to collect and has plans to

charge her with a felony if she even talks about joint custody. He may be

able to win, although (and you legal eagles may know better than I), if

asked if he has used the court to attempt to get his support and has to say

no, then that may go against him.

My only real wish is that his AA lawyer see his real side. My lawyer, when

she got his complaint said 'I don't know much about this guy yet, and while

many of the items were boilerplate divorce, many were not and he sounded so

strident'. I thought, 'Anne, I hope the best is yet to come!' Anne's my

lawyers name.

Now if only there were some way to sue AA out of all of this (grin grin)

Jan

Re: secrets()

>

>> Hi Jan,

>> What you say about meetings is true, but I usually got the same

response

>> from sponsors. Interestingly, all but two of my previous sponsors have

>> dropped out of AA,sober. only a couple of people in my church know of my

>> trouble with booze (those I told.) I have missed no church meetings, and

>> because I have tended to be a " binger " it was easy to keep my drinking

under

>> wraps. Will I perform better w/o periodic all nighters with booze or

drugs?

>> I think so. More important, I won't have morning afters to clean up and

>> cover up from. Am I grateful that booze didn't get a chance to take away

all

>> the good in my life? You bet. You know what? AAers have told me this

means I

>> am not " ready.' You know what? I'm staying sober for me, those I love

and

>> the church I love. No aplolgies for not " hitting a deep enough bottem!

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req.

>> Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS at checkout

>> http://clickhere./click/615

>>

>> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

>> - Simplifying group communications

>>

>

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>

July 31, 1999