Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 Re: secrets >Hi Wally, > I am in private therepy, so I will keep what you said in mind. >Interestingly, my m.d., when I asked about Antabuse, was completely against >it. He told me to go to AA. So it is no small wonder that after drinking, >part of me would at least recall this kind of advise. I am determined to >avoid all 12 step attendece, and yes I am determined not to drink. >Still sober and 12 step free > > Hi , My experience with MDs, when it comes to drinking problems, is that they all have very definite opinions, which they are sure are the ultimate truth, but that there is no general consensus among them on anything. In the early '80s, one MD told me that I really didn't drink all that much, and that if I ate balanced meals, took vitamins, and exercised more, he was sure that my difficulties with alcohol would go away. Another said that I would probably drink myself to death within six months, that AA or any sort of treatment would be futile, and that what I really ought to do was get myself locked up in an institution for life. The next to last of them to 'treat' me was a psychiatrist. He seemed to be unusually intelligent, for a man with a medical degree. He noted that I had been through several 28-day treatment programs and had gone to thousands of AA meetings over a period of 12 years, but that I had never stayed sober more than 3 months except when I took antabuse. He thought I should keep taking it for the rest of my life. Eventually I did quit taking it, though. It seemed to me that if I went through life believing that I needed it to stay sober that I'd never develop any real self-confidence about being abstinent, and might actually have a greater long-term risk of 'relapsing.' What led me to believe that things might be different this time was that I had finally seen through the AA/treatment mythology, had it not been for which I would probably have gotten sober 12 years earlier. But I would not hestitate to go back on it if I thought I needed to. I never had any side-effects or reactions. Undoubtedly sensitivity to the stuff varies. I think the moral of the story is that each of us has to find out what works for his own self and then stick to it, regardless of what anyone else thinks. -- wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 Re: secrets >Hi Wally, > I am in private therepy, so I will keep what you said in mind. >Interestingly, my m.d., when I asked about Antabuse, was completely against >it. He told me to go to AA. So it is no small wonder that after drinking, >part of me would at least recall this kind of advise. I am determined to >avoid all 12 step attendece, and yes I am determined not to drink. >Still sober and 12 step free > > Hi , My experience with MDs, when it comes to drinking problems, is that they all have very definite opinions, which they are sure are the ultimate truth, but that there is no general consensus among them on anything. In the early '80s, one MD told me that I really didn't drink all that much, and that if I ate balanced meals, took vitamins, and exercised more, he was sure that my difficulties with alcohol would go away. Another said that I would probably drink myself to death within six months, that AA or any sort of treatment would be futile, and that what I really ought to do was get myself locked up in an institution for life. The next to last of them to 'treat' me was a psychiatrist. He seemed to be unusually intelligent, for a man with a medical degree. He noted that I had been through several 28-day treatment programs and had gone to thousands of AA meetings over a period of 12 years, but that I had never stayed sober more than 3 months except when I took antabuse. He thought I should keep taking it for the rest of my life. Eventually I did quit taking it, though. It seemed to me that if I went through life believing that I needed it to stay sober that I'd never develop any real self-confidence about being abstinent, and might actually have a greater long-term risk of 'relapsing.' What led me to believe that things might be different this time was that I had finally seen through the AA/treatment mythology, had it not been for which I would probably have gotten sober 12 years earlier. But I would not hestitate to go back on it if I thought I needed to. I never had any side-effects or reactions. Undoubtedly sensitivity to the stuff varies. I think the moral of the story is that each of us has to find out what works for his own self and then stick to it, regardless of what anyone else thinks. -- wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 Hi Kayleigh (and all). My line of thought is both a bit cryptic and idiosyncratic from time to time. Can't expect others to understand my odd thinking. So my first answer to your question is: " I'm really glad you asked that question! " The second answer will have to wait until the weekend. I'm away 12 hours a day, and the summer is hot at the moment. My office has no air condition and it is my first week after my vacation. But I think I owe you an explanation. Bjørn kayleighs@... wrote: > > I don't think I agree with what Nietzsche said, but you can take it a couple different ways. First, society has unwritten rules about what we do and do not talk about. I do not relate my autobiography to every person I meet. I do not tell them about my medical problems or my sex life. People don't want to hear it. If, however, you have a secret that weighs on you, that you want to share with someone, that burdens you with the effort of keeping it secret, then perhaps there is some truth in the saying. I don't understand the reference to the " open mind " quote as connected to my post. Can you explain it? wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6498 > I think I agree with your disagreement, just want to add some diversive > hints. > > Nietzsche said ( translated from danish ) : " Where there is a big > secret, there is a big shame. " > > The second hint is from an american postcard 15 years ago. " Keep an > open mind, and people will throw all kinds of trash into it! " > > Bjoern > > kayleighs@... wrote: > > > > > I totally disagree with the " sick as your secrets " dogma. First of > all, most > psychological theories of therapy pretty much agree that there are some > things that needn't be given up and shouldn't be given up for > successful therapy. Second, I'm not even sure what it means. When I > was in treatment we had a lecture on this subject. You should have > seen the rush to confess in the week after the lecture, plus the rush > to rat other people out. But the stuff that was revealed was mostly, I > think, stuff that had nothing to do with drinking. Lots of people had > broken minor facility rules. Some people were having extramarital > affairs. Some people were gay. Do these secrets have anything to do > with sickness? They may betray a certain indifference to obeying the > law or keeping promises, or a resistance to going along with the > pressure to conform, but to me, none of these things are evidence of > sickness. Might they have something to do with why people drank? > Maybe, and a good clinician (if there are any among drug and alcohol > counselors) could probably find out. On the whole, though, I doubt it. > To me it seemed like a way for the counselors to enforce discipline > when they couldn't watch us every minute. On the other hand, I > remember someone once going to a counselor and saying that she was > worried because another patient was inducing vomiting after every meal, > and she was told that it was a selfish program, she should work her own > and not try to work anyone else's. That was a secret that probably had > some medical significance, but it wasn't betrayed (if that's the right > word) within the week after the lecture. > > Did this phrase form any part of the original AA program, or is it one > that was imported into AA from treatment? I suspect you will not find > any reference to it in any AA literature. > > wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6 374 > > Hi and list, > > Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion > about > > this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self > > revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? > > P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use > any > > support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows > this > > never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement > in AA) > > which says, " maybe those AAs were right. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [click here] > Click Here! > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 1999 Report Share Posted July 30, 1999 Thank you. Late answer, but I had a really good time. I've been there several times before, but the difference between flat Denmark and rocky Norway always shakes my mind. I was born in Norway and have lived in Denmark since 1971. The concequense of being double cultural is that you become a kind of 'above' cultural. That's both a gain and a loss. Bjørn BALIHAI333@... wrote: > > Hi Bjorn. Glad to see " see " you again. How was the trip to the mountains? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [click here] > Click Here! > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 1999 Report Share Posted July 30, 1999 Thank you. Late answer, but I had a really good time. I've been there several times before, but the difference between flat Denmark and rocky Norway always shakes my mind. I was born in Norway and have lived in Denmark since 1971. The concequense of being double cultural is that you become a kind of 'above' cultural. That's both a gain and a loss. Bjørn BALIHAI333@... wrote: > > Hi Bjorn. Glad to see " see " you again. How was the trip to the mountains? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [click here] > Click Here! > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 1999 Report Share Posted July 30, 1999 Hi . If secrets are a part of a shame complex you must decide for yourself what to reveal or not. As shame is the fear of expulsion. This could be realistic fear or neurotic anxiety. In the last case 'sharing' could be beneficial to your mental health. Man is the most developed herd animal. Therefore unveiling could result in abandonment. Bjørn wrote: > > No but trying to keep it a secret that you have a sickness will often be revealed by your secretions and over use of tissue paper. The question then becomes is it sick to try and keep your secretions a secret? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do these secrets have anything to do with sickness? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [click here] > Click Here! > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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