Guest guest Posted July 25, 1999 Report Share Posted July 25, 1999 In a message dated 7/25/99 10:29:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rashley@... writes: > Funny you should mention that " You shouldn't talk about that " > implication. In AA they say you are only as sick as your secrets and lo > and behold the organization hides some very grim realities of human > wreckage left in it's wake while trying to keep the focus of society on > it's contrived reasoning that it is onlt trying to help the suffering in > need. The program works for anyone right, and the wreckage is simply > from those who don't work it. Is an organization only as sick as it's > secrets then? According to AA's own words, AA is very sick indeed. Hmm... maybe this should have been posted under the " Contradictions " header... Ta, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 1999 Report Share Posted July 26, 1999 Joe, Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I will keep your post in my arsenal of ideas to fight the pesyl little voice. Thanks. sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 1999 Report Share Posted July 26, 1999 >Hi and list, > Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion about >this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self >revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? Hi , Self revelation is not always important in breaking out of an addiction, but sometimes it is. If you have a " secret " -- some kind of guilt, fear, or (perhaps imaginary) personal inadequacy, and if you drink in order to blot it out of your consciousness, then you might need some kind of outside help to get things in perspective. That's what psychologists and psychiatrists are for. When it comes to AA, though, there are only two kinds of problems: (A) Problems for which AA is not necessary; ( Problems for which AA is not sufficient. >P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use any >support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows this >never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement in AA) >which says, " maybe those AAs were right. > Yeah, those voices used to come back for me too, whenever I drank. They kept coming back until the last time, when I found myself being hauled off to the nuthouse, acutely psychotic, still clutching my Big Book... When I came out of it I decided that maybe those AAs were wrong. PS: assuming you want to not drink, have you ever tried going on Antabuse? I found it helpful at one point. Best regards, wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 Hi , The e-groups server has gone mental. Said there were 10 new messages this morning and 2569 tonight so I am lucky to even see your mail. You ask << I would like to ask your opinion about this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? >> First of all your secrets are your secrets. You know what they are and it is your choice to clue anyone else in on them. Self revelation as in discovering something about yourself that you didn't already know can be quite helpful in giving up an addiction. Simply put (If you want more just ask). Awareness of your own ability to exercise internal constraints is quite important in dealing with substance abuse. The operative words here are, your own ability and abuse. Addiction is the result of abuse. You chose to abuse a substance, you became addicted to it's use, only your internal constraints can enable you to choose to stop the abuse and end the addicitive results. You have these internal self constraints already and that may or may not be a revelation in lots of ways but with addiction it probably is. There is no one way, right way or wrong way to use these except to expect that it will get done for you by an outside power. You are quite capable of doing this. If I could offer a suggestion - relax into it as if it were a natural place to go considering all your own personal facts, desires, history etc. Some people say fight, fight, fight it is so hard to do. At times it may appear quite difficult, it may at times be difficult but you will be better off not getting all uptight about it all the time. Here is a little story to that end. You move to a new town. In the middle of the town is a large mountain. You ask about climbing it. Everyone says, no, no ,no only the strongest and the bravest have ever made it to the top and when they got there the were consumed by the great monster that lives on the top. Soon you start to believe this because everyone else in the town says it is true. Yet your a little skeptical. Then one day you just can't take living in the town anymore. Try as you may everytime you go to drive away you end up back in the town. You ask about this and are told the only way out is to climb the mountain which is too hard and quite insane as you will get consumed by the monster. Finally you get fed up, beyond the fear and you say the hell with it. You start to climb the mountain and sure enough the monster roars at you towering over the town. You still climb. As you get nearer the monster amazingly gets smaller. You push on. At last you reach the top and this 2 inch midget sits there throwing all kinds of profanity your way theatening to end your life, your happines and kill your pet fish. You look down at your monster and kick him off the mountain then you move to a new town. Does this make any sense to you. You and only you can choose to end an addiction by stopping the abuse. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6374 > Hi and list, > Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion about > this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self > revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? > P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use any > support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows this > never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement in AA) > which says, " maybe those AAs were right. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 Hi , The e-groups server has gone mental. Said there were 10 new messages this morning and 2569 tonight so I am lucky to even see your mail. You ask << I would like to ask your opinion about this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? >> First of all your secrets are your secrets. You know what they are and it is your choice to clue anyone else in on them. Self revelation as in discovering something about yourself that you didn't already know can be quite helpful in giving up an addiction. Simply put (If you want more just ask). Awareness of your own ability to exercise internal constraints is quite important in dealing with substance abuse. The operative words here are, your own ability and abuse. Addiction is the result of abuse. You chose to abuse a substance, you became addicted to it's use, only your internal constraints can enable you to choose to stop the abuse and end the addicitive results. You have these internal self constraints already and that may or may not be a revelation in lots of ways but with addiction it probably is. There is no one way, right way or wrong way to use these except to expect that it will get done for you by an outside power. You are quite capable of doing this. If I could offer a suggestion - relax into it as if it were a natural place to go considering all your own personal facts, desires, history etc. Some people say fight, fight, fight it is so hard to do. At times it may appear quite difficult, it may at times be difficult but you will be better off not getting all uptight about it all the time. Here is a little story to that end. You move to a new town. In the middle of the town is a large mountain. You ask about climbing it. Everyone says, no, no ,no only the strongest and the bravest have ever made it to the top and when they got there the were consumed by the great monster that lives on the top. Soon you start to believe this because everyone else in the town says it is true. Yet your a little skeptical. Then one day you just can't take living in the town anymore. Try as you may everytime you go to drive away you end up back in the town. You ask about this and are told the only way out is to climb the mountain which is too hard and quite insane as you will get consumed by the monster. Finally you get fed up, beyond the fear and you say the hell with it. You start to climb the mountain and sure enough the monster roars at you towering over the town. You still climb. As you get nearer the monster amazingly gets smaller. You push on. At last you reach the top and this 2 inch midget sits there throwing all kinds of profanity your way theatening to end your life, your happines and kill your pet fish. You look down at your monster and kick him off the mountain then you move to a new town. Does this make any sense to you. You and only you can choose to end an addiction by stopping the abuse. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6374 > Hi and list, > Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion about > this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self > revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? > P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use any > support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows this > never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement in AA) > which says, " maybe those AAs were right. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 Hi Wally, I am in private therepy, so I will keep what you said in mind. Interestingly, my m.d., when I asked about Antabuse, was completely against it. He told me to go to AA. So it is no small wonder that after drinking, part of me would at least recall this kind of advise. I am determined to avoid all 12 step attendece, and yes I am determined not to drink. Still sober and 12 step free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 , Your post made alot of sense. Thank you for taking the time to give such a thoughtful post. If it is Ok, I would like to print it and read it often. I am so glad that I found this list! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 I totally disagree with the " sick as your secrets " dogma. First of all, most psychological theories of therapy pretty much agree that there are some things that needn't be given up and shouldn't be given up for successful therapy. Second, I'm not even sure what it means. When I was in treatment we had a lecture on this subject. You should have seen the rush to confess in the week after the lecture, plus the rush to rat other people out. But the stuff that was revealed was mostly, I think, stuff that had nothing to do with drinking. Lots of people had broken minor facility rules. Some people were having extramarital affairs. Some people were gay. Do these secrets have anything to do with sickness? They may betray a certain indifference to obeying the law or keeping promises, or a resistance to going along with the pressure to conform, but to me, none of these things are evidence of sickness. Might they have something to do with why people drank? Maybe, and a good clinician (if there are any among drug and alcohol counselors) could probably find out. On the whole, though, I doubt it. To me it seemed like a way for the counselors to enforce discipline when they couldn't watch us every minute. On the other hand, I remember someone once going to a counselor and saying that she was worried because another patient was inducing vomiting after every meal, and she was told that it was a selfish program, she should work her own and not try to work anyone else's. That was a secret that probably had some medical significance, but it wasn't betrayed (if that's the right word) within the week after the lecture. Did this phrase form any part of the original AA program, or is it one that was imported into AA from treatment? I suspect you will not find any reference to it in any AA literature. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6374 > Hi and list, > Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion about > this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self > revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? > P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use any > support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows this > never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement in AA) > which says, " maybe those AAs were right. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 Joe, Yet the organization of AA won't own up to its secrets - like you said, mental mind games with vulnerable newcomers. Instead when people like that are brought up in discussion the AAer responds with 'yes, there are people like that, lah di da and nothing needs to be done, because we don't take each other's inventory, because they haven't had a drink today.' Jan Re: secrets >At 09:58 PM 7/26/99 EDT, you wrote: >>Hi and list, >> Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion about >>this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self >>revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? >>P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use any >>support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows this >>never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement in AA) >>which says, " maybe those AAs were right. >> > >Hi . AA uses the IDEA of honesty rather than honesty itself. The idea >of honesty, coupled with guilt and confession is used to manipulate and >control people. The guilt thing is quite subtle because people with >addictive behaviour and damge and such in their past have things they feel >bad about and this can be manipulated. We are not as sick as our secrets- >secrets are normal healthy things to have. AA calls private information > " secrets " in order to make people feel guilty for keeping personal >information private. If everybody confesses, everybody can be made " subject >to spiritual law " . What incredible bollocks! AA uses this guilt and >manipulation to control people instead of giving them the tools and >understanding they need to deal with their behaviour. > >The whole slant of AA is off into the aerie-faerie metaphysical area where >people can meditate and pontificate till the cows come home without doing >anything to change what really matters- their behaviour. So no, we are not >as sick as our secrets, we are as sick as our behaviour. If you have >private information that you do not wish to disclose to everybody, that is >normal and healthy. If you are abusing vulnerable people and pretending to >be a spiritual giant, THAT is sick. > >AA discourages the keeping of personal information while enabling (in true >spiritual fashion) widespread psychological and sexual abuse of vulnerable >people looking for help. Needless to say, you won't find many established >AA members openly confessing to that one. The irony is that in practice it >is people like you, who are harming no-one, but who still have a sense of >some personal responsibility, that feel the healthy guilt for their less >than perfect behaviour- while the people in a position of trust who abuse >newcomers don't apparently feel guilty at all. , tell the little voice >that it can take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. You need AA like a >banana needs a hammer! > >Joe Berenbaum >mailto:joe-b@... > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. >Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 >at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 Joe, Yet the organization of AA won't own up to its secrets - like you said, mental mind games with vulnerable newcomers. Instead when people like that are brought up in discussion the AAer responds with 'yes, there are people like that, lah di da and nothing needs to be done, because we don't take each other's inventory, because they haven't had a drink today.' Jan Re: secrets >At 09:58 PM 7/26/99 EDT, you wrote: >>Hi and list, >> Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion about >>this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self >>revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? >>P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use any >>support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows this >>never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement in AA) >>which says, " maybe those AAs were right. >> > >Hi . AA uses the IDEA of honesty rather than honesty itself. The idea >of honesty, coupled with guilt and confession is used to manipulate and >control people. The guilt thing is quite subtle because people with >addictive behaviour and damge and such in their past have things they feel >bad about and this can be manipulated. We are not as sick as our secrets- >secrets are normal healthy things to have. AA calls private information > " secrets " in order to make people feel guilty for keeping personal >information private. If everybody confesses, everybody can be made " subject >to spiritual law " . What incredible bollocks! AA uses this guilt and >manipulation to control people instead of giving them the tools and >understanding they need to deal with their behaviour. > >The whole slant of AA is off into the aerie-faerie metaphysical area where >people can meditate and pontificate till the cows come home without doing >anything to change what really matters- their behaviour. So no, we are not >as sick as our secrets, we are as sick as our behaviour. If you have >private information that you do not wish to disclose to everybody, that is >normal and healthy. If you are abusing vulnerable people and pretending to >be a spiritual giant, THAT is sick. > >AA discourages the keeping of personal information while enabling (in true >spiritual fashion) widespread psychological and sexual abuse of vulnerable >people looking for help. Needless to say, you won't find many established >AA members openly confessing to that one. The irony is that in practice it >is people like you, who are harming no-one, but who still have a sense of >some personal responsibility, that feel the healthy guilt for their less >than perfect behaviour- while the people in a position of trust who abuse >newcomers don't apparently feel guilty at all. , tell the little voice >that it can take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. You need AA like a >banana needs a hammer! > >Joe Berenbaum >mailto:joe-b@... > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. >Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 >at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 Joe, Yet the organization of AA won't own up to its secrets - like you said, mental mind games with vulnerable newcomers. Instead when people like that are brought up in discussion the AAer responds with 'yes, there are people like that, lah di da and nothing needs to be done, because we don't take each other's inventory, because they haven't had a drink today.' Jan Re: secrets >At 09:58 PM 7/26/99 EDT, you wrote: >>Hi and list, >> Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion about >>this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self >>revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? >>P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use any >>support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows this >>never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement in AA) >>which says, " maybe those AAs were right. >> > >Hi . AA uses the IDEA of honesty rather than honesty itself. The idea >of honesty, coupled with guilt and confession is used to manipulate and >control people. The guilt thing is quite subtle because people with >addictive behaviour and damge and such in their past have things they feel >bad about and this can be manipulated. We are not as sick as our secrets- >secrets are normal healthy things to have. AA calls private information > " secrets " in order to make people feel guilty for keeping personal >information private. If everybody confesses, everybody can be made " subject >to spiritual law " . What incredible bollocks! AA uses this guilt and >manipulation to control people instead of giving them the tools and >understanding they need to deal with their behaviour. > >The whole slant of AA is off into the aerie-faerie metaphysical area where >people can meditate and pontificate till the cows come home without doing >anything to change what really matters- their behaviour. So no, we are not >as sick as our secrets, we are as sick as our behaviour. If you have >private information that you do not wish to disclose to everybody, that is >normal and healthy. If you are abusing vulnerable people and pretending to >be a spiritual giant, THAT is sick. > >AA discourages the keeping of personal information while enabling (in true >spiritual fashion) widespread psychological and sexual abuse of vulnerable >people looking for help. Needless to say, you won't find many established >AA members openly confessing to that one. The irony is that in practice it >is people like you, who are harming no-one, but who still have a sense of >some personal responsibility, that feel the healthy guilt for their less >than perfect behaviour- while the people in a position of trust who abuse >newcomers don't apparently feel guilty at all. , tell the little voice >that it can take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. You need AA like a >banana needs a hammer! > >Joe Berenbaum >mailto:joe-b@... > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. >Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 >at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 Hi Kayleigh, There are alot of slogans used in AA that were never in the BB. Sick as your secrets is one of them. I don't know when and where AA started injecting the pop psychology babble. Probably during the 80's when the Baby Boomers started hitting the treatment centers in droves and brought their self-help books along. I personally can't stand one I heard alot recently in meetings: 'don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff' From a book written obviously by a man who probably had his wife do all the child rearing. You can bet when my stepson's fever rose to 104 and up, it was a big deal to me and I worried about him. I remember one member in AA who was involved in a car accident that killed his 2-year old. This was after he quit drinking. I doubt he would've welcomed the 'don't sweat the small stuff' garbage. There is no slogan that works for a tragedy like that. Jan Re: secrets >I totally disagree with the " sick as your secrets " dogma. First of >all, most >psychological theories of therapy pretty much agree that there are some >things that needn't be given up and shouldn't be given up for >successful therapy. Second, I'm not even sure what it means. When I >was in treatment we had a lecture on this subject. You should have >seen the rush to confess in the week after the lecture, plus the rush >to rat other people out. But the stuff that was revealed was mostly, I >think, stuff that had nothing to do with drinking. Lots of people had >broken minor facility rules. Some people were having extramarital >affairs. Some people were gay. Do these secrets have anything to do >with sickness? They may betray a certain indifference to obeying the >law or keeping promises, or a resistance to going along with the >pressure to conform, but to me, none of these things are evidence of >sickness. Might they have something to do with why people drank? >Maybe, and a good clinician (if there are any among drug and alcohol >counselors) could probably find out. On the whole, though, I doubt it. > To me it seemed like a way for the counselors to enforce discipline >when they couldn't watch us every minute. On the other hand, I >remember someone once going to a counselor and saying that she was >worried because another patient was inducing vomiting after every meal, >and she was told that it was a selfish program, she should work her own >and not try to work anyone else's. That was a secret that probably had >some medical significance, but it wasn't betrayed (if that's the right >word) within the week after the lecture. > >Did this phrase form any part of the original AA program, or is it one >that was imported into AA from treatment? I suspect you will not find >any reference to it in any AA literature. > > wrote: >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6374 >> Hi and list, >> Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion >about >> this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self >> revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? >> P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use >any >> support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows >this >> never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement >in AA) >> which says, " maybe those AAs were right. >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. >Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 >at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 Hi Kayleigh, There are alot of slogans used in AA that were never in the BB. Sick as your secrets is one of them. I don't know when and where AA started injecting the pop psychology babble. Probably during the 80's when the Baby Boomers started hitting the treatment centers in droves and brought their self-help books along. I personally can't stand one I heard alot recently in meetings: 'don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff' From a book written obviously by a man who probably had his wife do all the child rearing. You can bet when my stepson's fever rose to 104 and up, it was a big deal to me and I worried about him. I remember one member in AA who was involved in a car accident that killed his 2-year old. This was after he quit drinking. I doubt he would've welcomed the 'don't sweat the small stuff' garbage. There is no slogan that works for a tragedy like that. Jan Re: secrets >I totally disagree with the " sick as your secrets " dogma. First of >all, most >psychological theories of therapy pretty much agree that there are some >things that needn't be given up and shouldn't be given up for >successful therapy. Second, I'm not even sure what it means. When I >was in treatment we had a lecture on this subject. You should have >seen the rush to confess in the week after the lecture, plus the rush >to rat other people out. But the stuff that was revealed was mostly, I >think, stuff that had nothing to do with drinking. Lots of people had >broken minor facility rules. Some people were having extramarital >affairs. Some people were gay. Do these secrets have anything to do >with sickness? They may betray a certain indifference to obeying the >law or keeping promises, or a resistance to going along with the >pressure to conform, but to me, none of these things are evidence of >sickness. Might they have something to do with why people drank? >Maybe, and a good clinician (if there are any among drug and alcohol >counselors) could probably find out. On the whole, though, I doubt it. > To me it seemed like a way for the counselors to enforce discipline >when they couldn't watch us every minute. On the other hand, I >remember someone once going to a counselor and saying that she was >worried because another patient was inducing vomiting after every meal, >and she was told that it was a selfish program, she should work her own >and not try to work anyone else's. That was a secret that probably had >some medical significance, but it wasn't betrayed (if that's the right >word) within the week after the lecture. > >Did this phrase form any part of the original AA program, or is it one >that was imported into AA from treatment? I suspect you will not find >any reference to it in any AA literature. > > wrote: >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6374 >> Hi and list, >> Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion >about >> this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self >> revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? >> P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use >any >> support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows >this >> never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement >in AA) >> which says, " maybe those AAs were right. >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. >Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 >at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 Bjorn, I like to subscribe to the idea of 'not being too open minded or your brains will fall out' Jan Re: secrets >I think I agree with your disagreement, just want to add some diversive >hints. > >Nietzsche said ( translated from danish ) : " Where there is a big >secret, there is a big shame. " > >The second hint is from an american postcard 15 years ago. " Keep an >open mind, and people will throw all kinds of trash into it! " > >Bjoern > >kayleighs@... wrote: > >> >> I totally disagree with the " sick as your secrets " dogma. First of > all, most > psychological theories of therapy pretty much agree that there are some > things that needn't be given up and shouldn't be given up for > successful therapy. Second, I'm not even sure what it means. When I > was in treatment we had a lecture on this subject. You should have > seen the rush to confess in the week after the lecture, plus the rush > to rat other people out. But the stuff that was revealed was mostly, I > think, stuff that had nothing to do with drinking. Lots of people had > broken minor facility rules. Some people were having extramarital > affairs. Some people were gay. Do these secrets have anything to do > with sickness? They may betray a certain indifference to obeying the > law or keeping promises, or a resistance to going along with the > pressure to conform, but to me, none of these things are evidence of > sickness. Might they have something to do with why people drank? > Maybe, and a good clinician (if there are any among drug and alcohol > counselors) could probably find out. On the whole, though, I doubt it. > To me it seemed like a way for the counselors to enforce discipline > when they couldn't watch us every minute. On the other hand, I > remember someone once going to a counselor and saying that she was > worried because another patient was inducing vomiting after every meal, > and she was told that it was a selfish program, she should work her own > and not try to work anyone else's. That was a secret that probably had > some medical significance, but it wasn't betrayed (if that's the right > word) within the week after the lecture. > > Did this phrase form any part of the original AA program, or is it one > that was imported into AA from treatment? I suspect you will not find > any reference to it in any AA literature. > > wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6374 > > Hi and list, > > Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion > about > > this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self > > revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? > > P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use > any > > support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows > this > > never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement > in AA) > > which says, " maybe those AAs were right. > > > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> [click here] >> Click Here! >> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> www. - Simplifying group communications > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points, >NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online today! >http://clickhere./click/606 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 Hi Bjorn. Glad to see " see " you again. How was the trip to the mountains? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 Hi Bjorn. Glad to see " see " you again. How was the trip to the mountains? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 I was once in a meeting where a man told of his grief over the death of his 18 month old son, from meningitis. Nobody had a word to say. Yet if the guy had said he was being divorced, people would have popped up from all over with slogans. It's as though they've decided beforehand how painful something ought to be. Most people probably feel more pain over the death of a child than over splitting up with a spouse, but I've know a bunch of people in AA who have been divorced, and it is painful and the attitude they encounter is sort of that it just goes with the territory. <015601bed8e7$4142e2a0$4014fed-@mrsy> wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6475 > Hi Kayleigh, > > There are alot of slogans used in AA that were never in the BB. Sick as > your secrets is one of them. I don't know when and where AA started > injecting the pop psychology babble. Probably during the 80's when the Baby > Boomers started hitting the treatment centers in droves and brought their > self-help books along. I personally can't stand one I heard alot recently > in meetings: 'don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff' From a > book written obviously by a man who probably had his wife do all the child > rearing. You can bet when my stepson's fever rose to 104 and up, it was a > big deal to me and I worried about him. I remember one member in AA who was > involved in a car accident that killed his 2-year old. This was after he > quit drinking. I doubt he would've welcomed the 'don't sweat the small > stuff' garbage. There is no slogan that works for a tragedy like that. > > Jan > > Re: secrets > > > >I totally disagree with the " sick as your secrets " dogma. First of > >all, most > >psychological theories of therapy pretty much agree that there are some > >things that needn't be given up and shouldn't be given up for > >successful therapy. Second, I'm not even sure what it means. When I > >was in treatment we had a lecture on this subject. You should have > >seen the rush to confess in the week after the lecture, plus the rush > >to rat other people out. But the stuff that was revealed was mostly, I > >think, stuff that had nothing to do with drinking. Lots of people had > >broken minor facility rules. Some people were having extramarital > >affairs. Some people were gay. Do these secrets have anything to do > >with sickness? They may betray a certain indifference to obeying the > >law or keeping promises, or a resistance to going along with the > >pressure to conform, but to me, none of these things are evidence of > >sickness. Might they have something to do with why people drank? > >Maybe, and a good clinician (if there are any among drug and alcohol > >counselors) could probably find out. On the whole, though, I doubt it. > > To me it seemed like a way for the counselors to enforce discipline > >when they couldn't watch us every minute. On the other hand, I > >remember someone once going to a counselor and saying that she was > >worried because another patient was inducing vomiting after every meal, > >and she was told that it was a selfish program, she should work her own > >and not try to work anyone else's. That was a secret that probably had > >some medical significance, but it wasn't betrayed (if that's the right > >word) within the week after the lecture. > > > >Did this phrase form any part of the original AA program, or is it one > >that was imported into AA from treatment? I suspect you will not find > >any reference to it in any AA literature. > > > > wrote: > >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=63 74 > >> Hi and list, > >> Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion > >about > >> this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self > >> revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? > >> P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use > >any > >> support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows > >this > >> never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement > >in AA) > >> which says, " maybe those AAs were right. > >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 I was once in a meeting where a man told of his grief over the death of his 18 month old son, from meningitis. Nobody had a word to say. Yet if the guy had said he was being divorced, people would have popped up from all over with slogans. It's as though they've decided beforehand how painful something ought to be. Most people probably feel more pain over the death of a child than over splitting up with a spouse, but I've know a bunch of people in AA who have been divorced, and it is painful and the attitude they encounter is sort of that it just goes with the territory. <015601bed8e7$4142e2a0$4014fed-@mrsy> wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6475 > Hi Kayleigh, > > There are alot of slogans used in AA that were never in the BB. Sick as > your secrets is one of them. I don't know when and where AA started > injecting the pop psychology babble. Probably during the 80's when the Baby > Boomers started hitting the treatment centers in droves and brought their > self-help books along. I personally can't stand one I heard alot recently > in meetings: 'don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff' From a > book written obviously by a man who probably had his wife do all the child > rearing. You can bet when my stepson's fever rose to 104 and up, it was a > big deal to me and I worried about him. I remember one member in AA who was > involved in a car accident that killed his 2-year old. This was after he > quit drinking. I doubt he would've welcomed the 'don't sweat the small > stuff' garbage. There is no slogan that works for a tragedy like that. > > Jan > > Re: secrets > > > >I totally disagree with the " sick as your secrets " dogma. First of > >all, most > >psychological theories of therapy pretty much agree that there are some > >things that needn't be given up and shouldn't be given up for > >successful therapy. Second, I'm not even sure what it means. When I > >was in treatment we had a lecture on this subject. You should have > >seen the rush to confess in the week after the lecture, plus the rush > >to rat other people out. But the stuff that was revealed was mostly, I > >think, stuff that had nothing to do with drinking. Lots of people had > >broken minor facility rules. Some people were having extramarital > >affairs. Some people were gay. Do these secrets have anything to do > >with sickness? They may betray a certain indifference to obeying the > >law or keeping promises, or a resistance to going along with the > >pressure to conform, but to me, none of these things are evidence of > >sickness. Might they have something to do with why people drank? > >Maybe, and a good clinician (if there are any among drug and alcohol > >counselors) could probably find out. On the whole, though, I doubt it. > > To me it seemed like a way for the counselors to enforce discipline > >when they couldn't watch us every minute. On the other hand, I > >remember someone once going to a counselor and saying that she was > >worried because another patient was inducing vomiting after every meal, > >and she was told that it was a selfish program, she should work her own > >and not try to work anyone else's. That was a secret that probably had > >some medical significance, but it wasn't betrayed (if that's the right > >word) within the week after the lecture. > > > >Did this phrase form any part of the original AA program, or is it one > >that was imported into AA from treatment? I suspect you will not find > >any reference to it in any AA literature. > > > > wrote: > >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=63 74 > >> Hi and list, > >> Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion > >about > >> this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self > >> revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? > >> P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use > >any > >> support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows > >this > >> never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement > >in AA) > >> which says, " maybe those AAs were right. > >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 I don't think I agree with what Nietzsche said, but you can take it a couple different ways. First, society has unwritten rules about what we do and do not talk about. I do not relate my autobiography to every person I meet. I do not tell them about my medical problems or my sex life. People don't want to hear it. If, however, you have a secret that weighs on you, that you want to share with someone, that burdens you with the effort of keeping it secret, then perhaps there is some truth in the saying. I don't understand the reference to the " open mind " quote as connected to my post. Can you explain it? wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6498 > I think I agree with your disagreement, just want to add some diversive > hints. > > Nietzsche said ( translated from danish ) : " Where there is a big > secret, there is a big shame. " > > The second hint is from an american postcard 15 years ago. " Keep an > open mind, and people will throw all kinds of trash into it! " > > Bjoern > > kayleighs@... wrote: > > > > > I totally disagree with the " sick as your secrets " dogma. First of > all, most > psychological theories of therapy pretty much agree that there are some > things that needn't be given up and shouldn't be given up for > successful therapy. Second, I'm not even sure what it means. When I > was in treatment we had a lecture on this subject. You should have > seen the rush to confess in the week after the lecture, plus the rush > to rat other people out. But the stuff that was revealed was mostly, I > think, stuff that had nothing to do with drinking. Lots of people had > broken minor facility rules. Some people were having extramarital > affairs. Some people were gay. Do these secrets have anything to do > with sickness? They may betray a certain indifference to obeying the > law or keeping promises, or a resistance to going along with the > pressure to conform, but to me, none of these things are evidence of > sickness. Might they have something to do with why people drank? > Maybe, and a good clinician (if there are any among drug and alcohol > counselors) could probably find out. On the whole, though, I doubt it. > To me it seemed like a way for the counselors to enforce discipline > when they couldn't watch us every minute. On the other hand, I > remember someone once going to a counselor and saying that she was > worried because another patient was inducing vomiting after every meal, > and she was told that it was a selfish program, she should work her own > and not try to work anyone else's. That was a secret that probably had > some medical significance, but it wasn't betrayed (if that's the right > word) within the week after the lecture. > > Did this phrase form any part of the original AA program, or is it one > that was imported into AA from treatment? I suspect you will not find > any reference to it in any AA literature. > > wrote: > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6 374 > > Hi and list, > > Hi, I'm back after a break. I would like to ask your opinion > about > > this, " you are as sick as your secrets " idea. Do you think that self > > revelation is of importance in giving up an addicion? > > P.S. I drank on Friday night, and have stopped again. I could use > any > > support to fight the ugre to run back to AA. While my histiory shows > this > > never worked, there is that little voice ( after 10 years involvement > in AA) > > which says, " maybe those AAs were right. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 Yes, I've had a number of empty messages from . As to , I have figured out that if a message from someone else freezes the computer, it's a response to a post of 's. What on earth is going on here? wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6500 > As far as the dicky listserv goes, in my case tI seem to > get all the mails, but some of themn are empty. This is a > case in point - there was nothing typed by , only the > egroups adds at the end, which I deleted.. > > Pete > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 At 05:46 PM 7/28/99 -0700, kayleighs@... wrote: >I was once in a meeting where a man told of his grief over the death of >his 18 month old son, from meningitis. Nobody had a word to say. Yet >if the guy had said he was being divorced, people would have popped up >from all over with slogans. It's as though they've decided beforehand >how painful something ought to be. Yes, and AA'ers can't have so much pain that they would drink over it. I may have told this before here. I once heard a man in an AA meeting tell a story of his friend. His friend was scheduled to be the speaker at an AA speaker meeting one evening, but earlier that day his son had died. This man's friend went ahead and told his story at the meeting, and he never did even mention his son's death. Of the people in the speaker meeting, only he and his friend knew of his friend's son's death. This man went on (please locate and prepare barf bags now...) to say how much he admired his friend and the program he worked, and that it was only through working the AA program that his friend was able to fulfill his obligations to AA, to tell of the positive things in his life rather than the negative, and how happy he was to be in this wonderful program of Alcoholics Anonymous. >Most people probably feel more pain over the death of a child than over >splitting up with a spouse, but I've know a bunch of people in AA who >have been divorced, and it is painful and the attitude they encounter >is sort of that it just goes with the territory. I heard a few times at the 8111 club (in the upscale area of Roswell/ Dunwoody, GA) it said in a semi-joking manner that " you really don't know what sober is until you've been through a divorce sober " . They were alluding to the fact that there seemed to be a lot of divorces among the attendees of that club. ----- <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 Ben, I think it's the general consensus on this list that AA clubs are just meat markets without the booze. My husband who wants a divorce from me is hanging out at the local AA club every day now. He started traipsing down there when I was in the hospital with pneumonia last December. Next thing I know he wants a divorce. Says he needs a meeting every day. Bull - he's there to chase new vulnerable women. Good riddance to him. God have mercy on the next gal he gets his con artist hands on. Lands sakes, I have a bit resentment now don't I. Jan Re: secrets >At 05:46 PM 7/28/99 -0700, kayleighs@... wrote: >>I was once in a meeting where a man told of his grief over the death of >>his 18 month old son, from meningitis. Nobody had a word to say. Yet >>if the guy had said he was being divorced, people would have popped up >>from all over with slogans. It's as though they've decided beforehand >>how painful something ought to be. > > Yes, and AA'ers can't have so much pain that they would drink over it. > > I may have told this before here. I once heard a man in an AA meeting >tell a story of his friend. His friend was scheduled to be the speaker >at an AA speaker meeting one evening, but earlier that day his son had died. >This man's friend went ahead and told his story at the meeting, and he >never did even mention his son's death. Of the people in the speaker meeting, >only he and his friend knew of his friend's son's death. > This man went on (please locate and prepare barf bags now...) to >say how much he admired his friend and the program he worked, and that it >was only through working the AA program that his friend was able to fulfill >his obligations to AA, to tell of the positive things in his life rather >than the negative, and how happy he was to be in this wonderful program >of Alcoholics Anonymous. > >>Most people probably feel more pain over the death of a child than over >>splitting up with a spouse, but I've know a bunch of people in AA who >>have been divorced, and it is painful and the attitude they encounter >>is sort of that it just goes with the territory. > > I heard a few times at the 8111 club (in the upscale area of Roswell/ >Dunwoody, GA) it said in a semi-joking manner that " you really don't know >what sober is until you've been through a divorce sober " . They were alluding >to the fact that there seemed to be a lot of divorces among the attendees >of that club. >----- ><http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. >Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS at checkout >http://clickhere./click/615 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 No but trying to keep it a secret that you have a sickness will often be revealed by your secretions and over use of tissue paper. The question then becomes is it sick to try and keep your secretions a secret? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do these secrets have anything to do with sickness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 Wally, Thanks and AMEN.. uusean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 Re: secrets >Hi Wally, > I am in private therepy, so I will keep what you said in mind. >Interestingly, my m.d., when I asked about Antabuse, was completely against >it. He told me to go to AA. So it is no small wonder that after drinking, >part of me would at least recall this kind of advise. I am determined to >avoid all 12 step attendece, and yes I am determined not to drink. >Still sober and 12 step free > > Hi , My experience with MDs, when it comes to drinking problems, is that they all have very definite opinions, which they are sure are the ultimate truth, but that there is no general consensus among them on anything. In the early '80s, one MD told me that I really didn't drink all that much, and that if I ate balanced meals, took vitamins, and exercised more, he was sure that my difficulties with alcohol would go away. Another said that I would probably drink myself to death within six months, that AA or any sort of treatment would be futile, and that what I really ought to do was get myself locked up in an institution for life. The next to last of them to 'treat' me was a psychiatrist. He seemed to be unusually intelligent, for a man with a medical degree. He noted that I had been through several 28-day treatment programs and had gone to thousands of AA meetings over a period of 12 years, but that I had never stayed sober more than 3 months except when I took antabuse. He thought I should keep taking it for the rest of my life. Eventually I did quit taking it, though. It seemed to me that if I went through life believing that I needed it to stay sober that I'd never develop any real self-confidence about being abstinent, and might actually have a greater long-term risk of 'relapsing.' What led me to believe that things might be different this time was that I had finally seen through the AA/treatment mythology, had it not been for which I would probably have gotten sober 12 years earlier. But I would not hestitate to go back on it if I thought I needed to. I never had any side-effects or reactions. Undoubtedly sensitivity to the stuff varies. I think the moral of the story is that each of us has to find out what works for his own self and then stick to it, regardless of what anyone else thinks. -- wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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