Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 In a message dated 7/27/99 4:32:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, awatt04@... writes: << Sorry, as you used " DSM " I thought you would know the others. >> I have one. I didn't say that I could comprehend it. Apparently, you don't and have never had PTSD. Otherwise, you would know where I am coming from. Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 Luanne, Not everyone here has 100% walked in each other's shoes. This post is a place for those of us who were " Programmed " into collective thinking in 12 step rooms. (AA, NA, CODA, Alanon, etc....) Yes, we all still have problems, issues, and some of us take meds, and some have a drink occasionally, and some still have a hard time walking away from bad situations. Yet we come here to LIVE Past that stuff. For me, I come for new ideas as to how to do so. To single out and write to and about her not agreeing with you, says to me, that, your need to throw anger at others, needs to be taken somewhere else, if it doesn't pertain to being 12 step free and learning to live happily that way. It has been my experience here to direct my anger solely at the brainwashing I recieved in AA. Not at the other writers here. I come here, because I spent way too many years under controlling people telling me that what I thought, felt, said and did was wrong. So let me throw this in as well, I am not shaming or blaming you, just trying to remind you what this post is for. If you are angry at the 12 step programs, please by all means read and post here and perhaps you will discover that NO ONE is out to get you, shame you , or cause you any further trama. But, please don't attack others who are merely offering suggestions to questions you or others post. This is NOT AA! You also will find that is one of the most understanding Ladies who post here. She is a very caring person, just like I am sure you are in your own right. Take a deep breath and evaluate if this is somewhere you want to be. Sincerely Leigh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 In a message dated 7/27/99 6:49:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Marandtaz@... writes: << To single out and write to and about her not agreeing with you, says to me, that, your need to throw anger at others, needs to be taken somewhere else, if it doesn't pertain to being 12 step free and learning to live happily that way. It has been my experience here to direct my anger solely at the brainwashing I recieved in AA >> Nobody seems to understand my own situation. I have had two different people say that I can overcome my PTSD - one of them, didn't even have it. If PTSD, alcoholism, anorexia, and personality disorders can in fact, be overcame, then you guys are all wasting your time. It should be brought to the attention of Vet Hospitals, Detoxes, Jails, Hospitals, Mental Hospitals, the Surgeon General, Hazelden, Betty Ford, the CRASH Program, etc..., If all of these things are curable and true, how come only the folks on this list seem to be aware of that fact? How come my own mother couldn't stop drinking? How come she died, if it was indeed, so simple to cure? How come booze alone kills over 100,000 folks a year? How come on an average Saturday Night, half (yes, I am right) HALF of all drivers on the road are legally intoxicated? I joined this group because it was about other resources besides AA. What I am seeing is people saying that mental illness, alcoholism, and personalites are treatable and curable. If that was true, and it was all as simple as many people here seem to think it is, I wouldn't have posted the above statistics. Best, Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 Luanne, I am and have been treated for Manic Depression and Post Traumatic Stress for over 10 years, I KNOW there is no cure, and I have accepted it. It was in AA that I was told I didn't need anything but AA, and that they would Cure Me!... They only led me closer to suicide. And many hospital stays. Luckily I have a therapist who is open to new ideas and knows AA is NOT for everyone, or any 12step org. for that matter. Then when I found 12 step free, I recieved validation for my anger and feelings toward the brainwashing I got in THOSE Rooms! I have found peace here, for I know I am not alone in trying to deprogram myself from the hells of AA. This has been MY experience. I am sorry you have had a bad experience here, but, I still do not believe anyone has tried to harm you or purposely misunderstand you. I wish you the best. Leigh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 In a message dated 7/27/99 8:42:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, railroadrita@... writes: << Where do you get these statistics from?!? Even MADD [Mothers Against Drunk Driving], which is known to grossly inflate figures, puts the Saturday night DUI rate at 1 in 7, or about 14%. >> I saw it ON 20/20 and also, it was a question on Jeopardy, about a week after that. Best, Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 In a message dated 7/27/99 8:42:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, railroadrita@... writes: << Where do you get these statistics from?!? Even MADD [Mothers Against Drunk Driving], which is known to grossly inflate figures, puts the Saturday night DUI rate at 1 in 7, or about 14%. >> I saw it ON 20/20 and also, it was a question on Jeopardy, about a week after that. Best, Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 In a message dated 7/27/99 8:42:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, railroadrita@... writes: << Where do you get these statistics from?!? Even MADD [Mothers Against Drunk Driving], which is known to grossly inflate figures, puts the Saturday night DUI rate at 1 in 7, or about 14%. >> I saw it ON 20/20 and also, it was a question on Jeopardy, about a week after that. Best, Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 In a message dated 7/27/99 8:42:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, railroadrita@... writes: << But perhaps you are not interested in learning facts and diverse points of view, and prefer to pick fights >> Where did I do this? Is it because I don't agree that PTSD is curable? Best, Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 In a message dated 7/27/99 9:02:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mesavag@... writes: << I have seen you on the PTSD ng and you do nothing but attack. >> This has been because there has been a troll that has taken over the PTSD newsgroup. That is why I opened up a list for sufferers so that we would all have a 'safe place' to post. Best, Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 In a message dated 7/27/99 9:02:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mesavag@... writes: << I have seen you on the PTSD ng and you do nothing but attack. >> This has been because there has been a troll that has taken over the PTSD newsgroup. That is why I opened up a list for sufferers so that we would all have a 'safe place' to post. Best, Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 In a message dated 7/27/99 9:02:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mesavag@... writes: << I have seen you on the PTSD ng and you do nothing but attack. >> This has been because there has been a troll that has taken over the PTSD newsgroup. That is why I opened up a list for sufferers so that we would all have a 'safe place' to post. Best, Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 --- > How come on an average Saturday Night, half (yes, I am right) HALF of >all drivers on the road are legally intoxicated? > -------------------- Where do you get these statistics from?!? Even MADD [Mothers Against Drunk Driving], which is known to grossly inflate figures, puts the Saturday night DUI rate at 1 in 7, or about 14%. ------------------- >I joined this group because it was about other resources besides AA. What I >am seeing is people saying that mental illness, alcoholism, and personalites >are treatable and curable. If that was true, and it was all as simple as >many people here seem to think it is, I wouldn't have posted the above >statistics. > ------------------- Do you really believe that everyone who drives after drinking has the " disease " of " alcoholism " ? If so, your beliefs are at odds with most experts in the field, who put the percentage of those convicted of DUI who meet the clinical definition of alcohol dependence at less than 30%. I can cite references, if you wish. If you believe, as former WHO consultant Dr. Herbert Fingarette does, that abusive drinking is a _behavior_ and in no way a " disease " , then certainly it is curable -- anyone who once drank irresponsibly but no longer does has been cured. But perhaps you are not interested in learning facts and diverse points of view, and prefer to pick fights and accuse people of telling you what to do or " dissing " you. Is this combativeness in your best interest? ~Rita --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 1999 Report Share Posted July 27, 1999 Luanne, The fact is you are not happy regardless of what list you are on and continue to rage wherever you plant yourself. I have seen you on the PTSD ng and you do nothing but attack. It is unfortunate that your particular PTSD(maybe a special category for you would be appropriate) has been so damaging to you, but please do not attack people on this list as you have others. This has been a particularly helpful list to many and if you cannot find what you are looking for(and I do not think you will) then please exit. margie mesavag@... http://expage.com/page/alcoholanddrugrecovery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 At 12:59 AM 7/28/99 EDT, LuanneP@... wrote: >In a message dated 7/27/99 8:42:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >railroadrita@... writes: > ><< But perhaps you are not interested in learning facts and diverse points of >view, and prefer to pick fights >> > > >Where did I do this? Is it because I don't agree that PTSD is curable? > >Best, >Luanne Well, AA says that alcoholism is NOT CURABLE, yet there are a couple of million members there because they believe it IS TREATABLE. This same or similar distinction was made about PTSD in at least one eariler message, and I don't recall anyone precisely saying " PTSD is curable. " Luanne, it appears you are somewhat over-reactive. I assume this is part of your PTSD. Have you noticed this in yourself? I've had experiences where I interpret things differently than people intend them, and I have a hard time second-guessing myself. Many times after 12-step meetings, and I especially remember once after the end of a CODA meeting, someone saying, clearly TRYING to be helpful, " hang in there. " I took this as patronizing, talking down to me, as if the person was saying " gee, I'm sorry you feel so awful - try not to kill yourself over it. " It was reactions like that which almost stopped me from expressing my true feelings (I never totally stopped, but when I did talk about my feelings I felt like I had been suckered into it, because that particular meeting felt 'safe, but I always regretted it). What I did was to consciously develop a " Grateful Recovering Alcoholic " personality, in which I said everything 12-steppers expected and wanted to hear in AA meetings (slogans instead of actual 'experience'), but I did so in a sarcastic voice. The few who could hear it and knew me well KNEW what I was doing, but it seemed to confuse others, who likely thought " Ben's tone of voice is sarcastic, yet he's saying all these wonderful things about how AA saved his life. He couldn't possibly actually be sarcastic, that would mean he's actually saying the program doesn't work and it sucks, but clearly the program DOES work... " Well, that got totally off the subject of Luanne and PTSD, but I felt the need to write it. I'll write more about my PTSD (originating from emotional and likely physical childhood abuse) when I have time... But to ask others here - what would your reaction be to someone who said " hang in there " after you 'spilled your guts'? ----- <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 At 12:59 AM 7/28/99 EDT, LuanneP@... wrote: >In a message dated 7/27/99 8:42:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >railroadrita@... writes: > ><< But perhaps you are not interested in learning facts and diverse points of >view, and prefer to pick fights >> > > >Where did I do this? Is it because I don't agree that PTSD is curable? > >Best, >Luanne Well, AA says that alcoholism is NOT CURABLE, yet there are a couple of million members there because they believe it IS TREATABLE. This same or similar distinction was made about PTSD in at least one eariler message, and I don't recall anyone precisely saying " PTSD is curable. " Luanne, it appears you are somewhat over-reactive. I assume this is part of your PTSD. Have you noticed this in yourself? I've had experiences where I interpret things differently than people intend them, and I have a hard time second-guessing myself. Many times after 12-step meetings, and I especially remember once after the end of a CODA meeting, someone saying, clearly TRYING to be helpful, " hang in there. " I took this as patronizing, talking down to me, as if the person was saying " gee, I'm sorry you feel so awful - try not to kill yourself over it. " It was reactions like that which almost stopped me from expressing my true feelings (I never totally stopped, but when I did talk about my feelings I felt like I had been suckered into it, because that particular meeting felt 'safe, but I always regretted it). What I did was to consciously develop a " Grateful Recovering Alcoholic " personality, in which I said everything 12-steppers expected and wanted to hear in AA meetings (slogans instead of actual 'experience'), but I did so in a sarcastic voice. The few who could hear it and knew me well KNEW what I was doing, but it seemed to confuse others, who likely thought " Ben's tone of voice is sarcastic, yet he's saying all these wonderful things about how AA saved his life. He couldn't possibly actually be sarcastic, that would mean he's actually saying the program doesn't work and it sucks, but clearly the program DOES work... " Well, that got totally off the subject of Luanne and PTSD, but I felt the need to write it. I'll write more about my PTSD (originating from emotional and likely physical childhood abuse) when I have time... But to ask others here - what would your reaction be to someone who said " hang in there " after you 'spilled your guts'? ----- <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 At 12:59 AM 7/28/99 EDT, LuanneP@... wrote: >In a message dated 7/27/99 8:42:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >railroadrita@... writes: > ><< But perhaps you are not interested in learning facts and diverse points of >view, and prefer to pick fights >> > > >Where did I do this? Is it because I don't agree that PTSD is curable? > >Best, >Luanne Well, AA says that alcoholism is NOT CURABLE, yet there are a couple of million members there because they believe it IS TREATABLE. This same or similar distinction was made about PTSD in at least one eariler message, and I don't recall anyone precisely saying " PTSD is curable. " Luanne, it appears you are somewhat over-reactive. I assume this is part of your PTSD. Have you noticed this in yourself? I've had experiences where I interpret things differently than people intend them, and I have a hard time second-guessing myself. Many times after 12-step meetings, and I especially remember once after the end of a CODA meeting, someone saying, clearly TRYING to be helpful, " hang in there. " I took this as patronizing, talking down to me, as if the person was saying " gee, I'm sorry you feel so awful - try not to kill yourself over it. " It was reactions like that which almost stopped me from expressing my true feelings (I never totally stopped, but when I did talk about my feelings I felt like I had been suckered into it, because that particular meeting felt 'safe, but I always regretted it). What I did was to consciously develop a " Grateful Recovering Alcoholic " personality, in which I said everything 12-steppers expected and wanted to hear in AA meetings (slogans instead of actual 'experience'), but I did so in a sarcastic voice. The few who could hear it and knew me well KNEW what I was doing, but it seemed to confuse others, who likely thought " Ben's tone of voice is sarcastic, yet he's saying all these wonderful things about how AA saved his life. He couldn't possibly actually be sarcastic, that would mean he's actually saying the program doesn't work and it sucks, but clearly the program DOES work... " Well, that got totally off the subject of Luanne and PTSD, but I felt the need to write it. I'll write more about my PTSD (originating from emotional and likely physical childhood abuse) when I have time... But to ask others here - what would your reaction be to someone who said " hang in there " after you 'spilled your guts'? ----- <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 In a message dated 7/27/99 11:22:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, benbradley@... writes: << Luanne, it appears you are somewhat over-reactive. I assume this is part of your PTSD. Have you noticed this in yourself? >> Yes, this is true. You have PTSD yourself, correct? I assume that you do because you asked for instructions on how to join my list. I wish I could control my symptoms better but it is very difficult, even with all the meds I take. Best, Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 In a message dated 7/27/99 11:22:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, benbradley@... writes: << Luanne, it appears you are somewhat over-reactive. I assume this is part of your PTSD. Have you noticed this in yourself? >> Yes, this is true. You have PTSD yourself, correct? I assume that you do because you asked for instructions on how to join my list. I wish I could control my symptoms better but it is very difficult, even with all the meds I take. Best, Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 If someone told me to hang in there after I had just spilled my guts, I believe I would feel it was an understatement, to say the least, and that the person hadn't understood me properly. On the other hand, factors such as how well I knew the person, tone of voice, whether there was a hug, would all alter how I might view it. I must say it's a whole lot better than " This, too, shall pass, " or " Make a gratitude list. " wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6464 > At 12:59 AM 7/28/99 EDT, LuanneP@... wrote: > >In a message dated 7/27/99 8:42:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > >railroadrita@... writes: > > > ><< But perhaps you are not interested in learning facts and diverse points > of > >view, and prefer to pick fights >> > > > > > >Where did I do this? Is it because I don't agree that PTSD is curable? > > > >Best, > >Luanne > > > Well, AA says that alcoholism is NOT CURABLE, yet there are a couple of > million members there because they believe it IS TREATABLE. This same or > similar distinction was made about PTSD in at least one eariler > message, and I don't recall anyone precisely saying " PTSD is curable. " > > Luanne, it appears you are somewhat over-reactive. I assume this is > part of your PTSD. Have you noticed this in yourself? > I've had experiences where I interpret things differently than people > intend them, and I have a hard time second-guessing myself. Many times > after 12-step meetings, and I especially remember once after the end > of a CODA meeting, someone saying, clearly TRYING to be helpful, > " hang in there. " I took this as patronizing, talking down to me, as > if the person was saying " gee, I'm sorry you feel so awful - try not > to kill yourself over it. " > It was reactions like that which almost stopped me from expressing my > true feelings (I never totally stopped, but when I did talk about my > feelings I felt like I had been suckered into it, because that particular > meeting felt 'safe, but I always regretted it). What I did was to > consciously develop a " Grateful Recovering Alcoholic " personality, in which > I said everything 12-steppers expected and wanted to hear in AA meetings > (slogans instead of actual 'experience'), but I did so in a sarcastic > voice. The few who could hear it and knew me well KNEW what I was doing, > but it > seemed to confuse others, who likely thought " Ben's tone of voice is > sarcastic, yet he's saying all these wonderful things about how AA saved > his life. He couldn't possibly actually be sarcastic, that would mean > he's actually saying the program doesn't work and it sucks, but clearly > the program DOES work... " > > Well, that got totally off the subject of Luanne and PTSD, but I felt > the need to write it. I'll write more about my PTSD (originating from > emotional and likely physical childhood abuse) when I have time... > But to ask others here - what would your reaction be to someone who > said " hang in there " after you 'spilled your guts'? > > > ----- > <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 1999 Report Share Posted July 28, 1999 Hi Luanne; If you want to see them as " Incurable " it's alright with me, besides no one here said anything resembling " Cured " . I believe I said PTSD is " treatable " and if you believe your PTSD untreatable, why then take medication and go to therapy. Those of us that have undergone therapy for PTSD, and have lost many of the symptoms, figure we are getting better. That won't change because you say it ain't so. If you wish to believe that I am not telling you the truth, there's nothing to discuss. If you believe I am mentally defective and don't know I am not better, there is still nothing to discuss. I want to ask a question seriously. Is your therapist a 12 step believer, because when folks say " Incurable " I automatically think of 12 step folks? As you are well aware any Panic Disorder is serious business, and you want the best folks you can get. I had a clinical psychologist for therapy and a Psychiatrist for medications, My wife did too and we are both considerably better. She's been at this for 10 years, me for 9. When I started therapy, we didn't even have a telephone, let alone a computer. Today, I've got five of the bloody things online. Rose and I are equal partners in a small Electronics business called " Pachyderm Electronics Repair " Our Logo is a grinning elephant with " We work for peanuts " beneath it. We have the usual stuff married folks have, his and hers station wagons, our computers, Satellite and cable TV. We've done it mostly in the last five years. It took that long to get the old bills caught up and get a phone in, then we opened the business and things took off from there. If I were still having the panic attacks, the mental shutdown and anxiety of PTSD, I wouldn't have been able to do it. We are even under contract to a supplier of Rental Machines to do all theirs, but that only amounts to a couple of dozen machines a month, when we fix 'em, they stay fixed! (That's brag, not fact, some do come back for a second trip) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 Luanne Sometimes when I am bored I go into AA chat rooms and stir up shit with people. Is that what you are doing here? Are you for real? Because I think you are just messing around here. I bet you are like 14 years old and stuck in your room or something. Or mabey you were on your way to the subway to push someone under the tracks. Whatever, if you are for real then my next reply will be a Get Well Soon card, if you are just fooling around, then I understand, but take it easy, cause there are some smart people in here, who are factually blowing you away. Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 In a message dated 7/29/99 6:18:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Javajenv@... writes: << Sometimes when I am bored I go into AA chat rooms and stir up shit with people. Is that what you are doing here? Are you for real? Because I think you are just messing around here. I bet you are like 14 years old and stuck in your room or something. >> I am absolutely for real. I'm 42 years old, not 14. I've got 8 years without a drink/drugs. and I don't understand why you are questioning me. Yes, I did AA in the beginning, but I got sick of their bullshit, mainly their crap about " if you don't do it OUR way, you'll drink again. " Well, I haven't been to a f*cking meeting in years and I'm doing just fine. If you don't believe that I am FOR REAL, I will be happy to pass on my phone number and address privately, Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 Is that you Hinckly Jr.? I heard you might be getting out on a pass. Look Luanne, you frighten me. I would not even accept any of your personal info, just a saftey feature of mine, because then I would be putting myself in a position to be victimized, perhaps. Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 In a message dated 7/29/99 7:30:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Javajenv@... writes: << s that you Hinckly Jr.? I heard you might be getting out on a pass. Look Luanne, you frighten me. >> Jesus!! I am beginning to think that YOU are the troll. Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 1999 Report Share Posted July 29, 1999 In a message dated 7/29/99 7:30:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Javajenv@... writes: << s that you Hinckly Jr.? I heard you might be getting out on a pass. Look Luanne, you frighten me. >> Jesus!! I am beginning to think that YOU are the troll. Luanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.