Guest guest Posted July 6, 1999 Report Share Posted July 6, 1999 Hi ! > The difficult part is that folks who say hurting AA kills people, will be very right upon the demise of AA. Many folks after being in AA et al for many years cannot face truth, personal responsibility or life without group approval. Some of these will die at their own hand like ancient warriors who couldn't face defeat.> While I agree that removing AA from people's lives could potentially be disastrous, I think that AA will probably not die out totally, at least, not for a long time. I think AA is perfect for certain people in that it provides an alternative addiction; also it is free. My only hope is that alternatives will eventually (hopefully soon) be offered to people who seek help with addiction. I think SMART is positioned to be the best competitor because it's also free and non-profit. We shall see... Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 1999 Report Share Posted July 6, 1999 Hi ! > The difficult part is that folks who say hurting AA kills people, will be very right upon the demise of AA. Many folks after being in AA et al for many years cannot face truth, personal responsibility or life without group approval. Some of these will die at their own hand like ancient warriors who couldn't face defeat.> While I agree that removing AA from people's lives could potentially be disastrous, I think that AA will probably not die out totally, at least, not for a long time. I think AA is perfect for certain people in that it provides an alternative addiction; also it is free. My only hope is that alternatives will eventually (hopefully soon) be offered to people who seek help with addiction. I think SMART is positioned to be the best competitor because it's also free and non-profit. We shall see... Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 1999 Report Share Posted July 6, 1999 Hi ! > The difficult part is that folks who say hurting AA kills people, will be very right upon the demise of AA. Many folks after being in AA et al for many years cannot face truth, personal responsibility or life without group approval. Some of these will die at their own hand like ancient warriors who couldn't face defeat.> While I agree that removing AA from people's lives could potentially be disastrous, I think that AA will probably not die out totally, at least, not for a long time. I think AA is perfect for certain people in that it provides an alternative addiction; also it is free. My only hope is that alternatives will eventually (hopefully soon) be offered to people who seek help with addiction. I think SMART is positioned to be the best competitor because it's also free and non-profit. We shall see... Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 1999 Report Share Posted July 6, 1999 : The letter was 's boyfriend's-she decided to stay in AA, (I guess) and left this group. I know there would have been a time in my AA sobriety, this kind of free thinking would have scared me to death. I would have been guilt-ridden at " betraying " the entity that " saved my life " . I could not have imagined NOT going to AA meetings. I did for 15 years-been sober for almost 18, now-and NOT by the grace of god or AA; I have been pretty much on my own in the last few years. Being away from AA has allowed for other opinions and views to come into my life and caused me to start thinking for myself again. Many of us here, if you read our responses, feel in common to 's boyfriend's uninformed and brainwashed defense of AA. The pull of AA is strong for many, partly because you are told you can't think for yourself. This is real evident in his essay. It's sad, but ignorance is bliss, as they say! (And a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!!) wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5369 > I seem to have lost the name of the author of this but it doesn't matter > as this is my comments on the ideas presented and should not be taken > personally. > > Snip>> > Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is > >> >create another structure. > > Why, because we won't tell you how to think, strip you of your right of > expression and sap away your individuality with threats banishing you > to the great void of the outcasts who won't work the program to face > pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization and death? Yeah, yeah better > be careful of such people. > > Snip>> > It is no different from any other structure, really. > It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, > 12-step free would fall to pieces. > > And of course not one person on this list that I have had any > correspondence with would mind one bit, IF there were no AA, 12 step > free would have served it's good and noble purpose and would have no > need to exist. However the, " individuals " on this list would continue to > live their lives with the knowledge of a job well done. Unfortunately > the average AA member would face the madness of the empty space in > their heads as in : Oh my God no meeting to go to, what do I do, Oh my > God I have to make a decision and no sponsor to call, what do I do, Oh > my God no recipe for living as baked till brown in the BB, what do I do. > Oh my God I have to think for myself... ... .... what do I do!!!! > > Snip>> > " Free " is in a symbiotic > relationship to AA. > > A ludicrous assumption. Free, in the case of , " 12 step free " , is > synonymous with being a freethinker, as in one who has rejected > authority and dogma especially one that is religious. To make an > assumption that one who has rejected such a self proclaimed authority as > AA, is now in a symbiotic with AA is nonsense in the extreme. AA is > persecution of the vulnerable, a shell game of injected untruths > supported by mass agreement and those of us who have cleared our decks > of it's nonsense are not in a close mutually beneficial relationship > with it. > > The two structures serve as a system of checks and > balances. > > How can subordination, indoctrination, cult style brainwashing, > cultivation of shame and guilt while rejecting personal responsibility > serve as a system of checks and balances to assertiveness of self, > freethinking, individual preference, and reduction of shame and guilt by > recognizing and accepting personal responsibility. I don't get the > logic here. Of course I didn't get the logic in the BB either. Must be > some kind of character defect I have. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 1999 Report Share Posted July 6, 1999 : The letter was 's boyfriend's-she decided to stay in AA, (I guess) and left this group. I know there would have been a time in my AA sobriety, this kind of free thinking would have scared me to death. I would have been guilt-ridden at " betraying " the entity that " saved my life " . I could not have imagined NOT going to AA meetings. I did for 15 years-been sober for almost 18, now-and NOT by the grace of god or AA; I have been pretty much on my own in the last few years. Being away from AA has allowed for other opinions and views to come into my life and caused me to start thinking for myself again. Many of us here, if you read our responses, feel in common to 's boyfriend's uninformed and brainwashed defense of AA. The pull of AA is strong for many, partly because you are told you can't think for yourself. This is real evident in his essay. It's sad, but ignorance is bliss, as they say! (And a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!!) wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5369 > I seem to have lost the name of the author of this but it doesn't matter > as this is my comments on the ideas presented and should not be taken > personally. > > Snip>> > Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is > >> >create another structure. > > Why, because we won't tell you how to think, strip you of your right of > expression and sap away your individuality with threats banishing you > to the great void of the outcasts who won't work the program to face > pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization and death? Yeah, yeah better > be careful of such people. > > Snip>> > It is no different from any other structure, really. > It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, > 12-step free would fall to pieces. > > And of course not one person on this list that I have had any > correspondence with would mind one bit, IF there were no AA, 12 step > free would have served it's good and noble purpose and would have no > need to exist. However the, " individuals " on this list would continue to > live their lives with the knowledge of a job well done. Unfortunately > the average AA member would face the madness of the empty space in > their heads as in : Oh my God no meeting to go to, what do I do, Oh my > God I have to make a decision and no sponsor to call, what do I do, Oh > my God no recipe for living as baked till brown in the BB, what do I do. > Oh my God I have to think for myself... ... .... what do I do!!!! > > Snip>> > " Free " is in a symbiotic > relationship to AA. > > A ludicrous assumption. Free, in the case of , " 12 step free " , is > synonymous with being a freethinker, as in one who has rejected > authority and dogma especially one that is religious. To make an > assumption that one who has rejected such a self proclaimed authority as > AA, is now in a symbiotic with AA is nonsense in the extreme. AA is > persecution of the vulnerable, a shell game of injected untruths > supported by mass agreement and those of us who have cleared our decks > of it's nonsense are not in a close mutually beneficial relationship > with it. > > The two structures serve as a system of checks and > balances. > > How can subordination, indoctrination, cult style brainwashing, > cultivation of shame and guilt while rejecting personal responsibility > serve as a system of checks and balances to assertiveness of self, > freethinking, individual preference, and reduction of shame and guilt by > recognizing and accepting personal responsibility. I don't get the > logic here. Of course I didn't get the logic in the BB either. Must be > some kind of character defect I have. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 1999 Report Share Posted July 6, 1999 : The letter was 's boyfriend's-she decided to stay in AA, (I guess) and left this group. I know there would have been a time in my AA sobriety, this kind of free thinking would have scared me to death. I would have been guilt-ridden at " betraying " the entity that " saved my life " . I could not have imagined NOT going to AA meetings. I did for 15 years-been sober for almost 18, now-and NOT by the grace of god or AA; I have been pretty much on my own in the last few years. Being away from AA has allowed for other opinions and views to come into my life and caused me to start thinking for myself again. Many of us here, if you read our responses, feel in common to 's boyfriend's uninformed and brainwashed defense of AA. The pull of AA is strong for many, partly because you are told you can't think for yourself. This is real evident in his essay. It's sad, but ignorance is bliss, as they say! (And a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!!) wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5369 > I seem to have lost the name of the author of this but it doesn't matter > as this is my comments on the ideas presented and should not be taken > personally. > > Snip>> > Be careful with those guys... all they've done with " 12-step free " is > >> >create another structure. > > Why, because we won't tell you how to think, strip you of your right of > expression and sap away your individuality with threats banishing you > to the great void of the outcasts who won't work the program to face > pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization and death? Yeah, yeah better > be careful of such people. > > Snip>> > It is no different from any other structure, really. > It exists mainly in opposition to AA. If there were no AA, > 12-step free would fall to pieces. > > And of course not one person on this list that I have had any > correspondence with would mind one bit, IF there were no AA, 12 step > free would have served it's good and noble purpose and would have no > need to exist. However the, " individuals " on this list would continue to > live their lives with the knowledge of a job well done. Unfortunately > the average AA member would face the madness of the empty space in > their heads as in : Oh my God no meeting to go to, what do I do, Oh my > God I have to make a decision and no sponsor to call, what do I do, Oh > my God no recipe for living as baked till brown in the BB, what do I do. > Oh my God I have to think for myself... ... .... what do I do!!!! > > Snip>> > " Free " is in a symbiotic > relationship to AA. > > A ludicrous assumption. Free, in the case of , " 12 step free " , is > synonymous with being a freethinker, as in one who has rejected > authority and dogma especially one that is religious. To make an > assumption that one who has rejected such a self proclaimed authority as > AA, is now in a symbiotic with AA is nonsense in the extreme. AA is > persecution of the vulnerable, a shell game of injected untruths > supported by mass agreement and those of us who have cleared our decks > of it's nonsense are not in a close mutually beneficial relationship > with it. > > The two structures serve as a system of checks and > balances. > > How can subordination, indoctrination, cult style brainwashing, > cultivation of shame and guilt while rejecting personal responsibility > serve as a system of checks and balances to assertiveness of self, > freethinking, individual preference, and reduction of shame and guilt by > recognizing and accepting personal responsibility. I don't get the > logic here. Of course I didn't get the logic in the BB either. Must be > some kind of character defect I have. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 1999 Report Share Posted July 6, 1999 Hey ; Good to hear from you. The Author was 's boyfriend and she posted it. However, she neglected to tell him that AA brooked no dissent from the party line, he thought both AA and the free zone discussed each other like the D's and R's in an election. I disagree that the 12step free zone would die with the demise of AA et al. The free zone is an idea marketplace. The XA's are our topic now, but color AA gone and we'd be comparing SMART and RR and 16steps et al, we would still have a purpose because anyone can jump in with any idea. The principle according to kenr1, is free exchange of ideas without the groupers picking on the individual. Subtract the groupers, your left with free exchange of ideas, a principle that I hope never dies. The difficult part is that folks who say hurting AA kills people, will be very right upon the demise of AA. Many folks after being in AA et al for many years cannot face truth, personal responsibility or life without group approval. Some of these will die at their own hand like ancient warriors who couldn't face defeat. Where we see opportunity, they see fear of the unknown, perhaps unknowable, where we see challenge, they see failure, where we see options, they see foreboding ambiguity and lack of authority, where we see a prison, they see structured living. To all of these, Fear Is The Key. I will never see, an opportunity, challenge or option, if I am burdened with a total fear of the unknown and long for the time tested authoritarian way. While drinking, like most I think, I lived on the edge and thought I longed for a peaceful existence. I was a patsy for AA because they promised a peaceful existence. However, they didn't tell me I had to take a lobotomy to get it. But isn't that really what AA offers, an emotional/intellectual lobotomy? Of course with those two gone, where is invention, improvisation, creativity? In the toilet I believe. Without emotional and intellectual autonomy nothing is invented except the expected. A better micro chip instead of a new concept that makes the chip obsolete. Would you go to an art class and see paint by number? Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Yet we all paid homage to life by the numbers and now it sounds equally ridiculous. My vision and definition of a " Peaceful Life " was not to attain peace by giving up everything that brought strong emotion, I wanted freedom from fear so that I could live. I even listened to one AA lecture on how to avoid being Too Happy! (Honest Injun) Also one on not getting angry and one on " Processing Grief " They had it laid out neatly with time limits. Wouldn't doing all these things well be the mark of a control freak? Someone who not only must control their environment, but their emotions. They have a name for that, I believe Sociopath would be the name of doing all these perfectly. We scream loudly about what AA and AA folks have done to us. Would a fair description of the behavior we object to be Passive/Aggressive behavior. Someone who intentionally hurts you and then exhausts themselves apologizing or acts like it was someone else that did it. Both a result (I think) of suppressing anger. According to what I've learned anger will come out, one way or another. Anger doesn't cause drunkeness, putting alcohol in my mouth is the cause of that. I'd rather be angry for a little while, than miserable for a long while ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 1999 Report Share Posted July 6, 1999 Hey ; Good to hear from you. The Author was 's boyfriend and she posted it. However, she neglected to tell him that AA brooked no dissent from the party line, he thought both AA and the free zone discussed each other like the D's and R's in an election. I disagree that the 12step free zone would die with the demise of AA et al. The free zone is an idea marketplace. The XA's are our topic now, but color AA gone and we'd be comparing SMART and RR and 16steps et al, we would still have a purpose because anyone can jump in with any idea. The principle according to kenr1, is free exchange of ideas without the groupers picking on the individual. Subtract the groupers, your left with free exchange of ideas, a principle that I hope never dies. The difficult part is that folks who say hurting AA kills people, will be very right upon the demise of AA. Many folks after being in AA et al for many years cannot face truth, personal responsibility or life without group approval. Some of these will die at their own hand like ancient warriors who couldn't face defeat. Where we see opportunity, they see fear of the unknown, perhaps unknowable, where we see challenge, they see failure, where we see options, they see foreboding ambiguity and lack of authority, where we see a prison, they see structured living. To all of these, Fear Is The Key. I will never see, an opportunity, challenge or option, if I am burdened with a total fear of the unknown and long for the time tested authoritarian way. While drinking, like most I think, I lived on the edge and thought I longed for a peaceful existence. I was a patsy for AA because they promised a peaceful existence. However, they didn't tell me I had to take a lobotomy to get it. But isn't that really what AA offers, an emotional/intellectual lobotomy? Of course with those two gone, where is invention, improvisation, creativity? In the toilet I believe. Without emotional and intellectual autonomy nothing is invented except the expected. A better micro chip instead of a new concept that makes the chip obsolete. Would you go to an art class and see paint by number? Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Yet we all paid homage to life by the numbers and now it sounds equally ridiculous. My vision and definition of a " Peaceful Life " was not to attain peace by giving up everything that brought strong emotion, I wanted freedom from fear so that I could live. I even listened to one AA lecture on how to avoid being Too Happy! (Honest Injun) Also one on not getting angry and one on " Processing Grief " They had it laid out neatly with time limits. Wouldn't doing all these things well be the mark of a control freak? Someone who not only must control their environment, but their emotions. They have a name for that, I believe Sociopath would be the name of doing all these perfectly. We scream loudly about what AA and AA folks have done to us. Would a fair description of the behavior we object to be Passive/Aggressive behavior. Someone who intentionally hurts you and then exhausts themselves apologizing or acts like it was someone else that did it. Both a result (I think) of suppressing anger. According to what I've learned anger will come out, one way or another. Anger doesn't cause drunkeness, putting alcohol in my mouth is the cause of that. I'd rather be angry for a little while, than miserable for a long while ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 1999 Report Share Posted July 6, 1999 Hey ; Good to hear from you. The Author was 's boyfriend and she posted it. However, she neglected to tell him that AA brooked no dissent from the party line, he thought both AA and the free zone discussed each other like the D's and R's in an election. I disagree that the 12step free zone would die with the demise of AA et al. The free zone is an idea marketplace. The XA's are our topic now, but color AA gone and we'd be comparing SMART and RR and 16steps et al, we would still have a purpose because anyone can jump in with any idea. The principle according to kenr1, is free exchange of ideas without the groupers picking on the individual. Subtract the groupers, your left with free exchange of ideas, a principle that I hope never dies. The difficult part is that folks who say hurting AA kills people, will be very right upon the demise of AA. Many folks after being in AA et al for many years cannot face truth, personal responsibility or life without group approval. Some of these will die at their own hand like ancient warriors who couldn't face defeat. Where we see opportunity, they see fear of the unknown, perhaps unknowable, where we see challenge, they see failure, where we see options, they see foreboding ambiguity and lack of authority, where we see a prison, they see structured living. To all of these, Fear Is The Key. I will never see, an opportunity, challenge or option, if I am burdened with a total fear of the unknown and long for the time tested authoritarian way. While drinking, like most I think, I lived on the edge and thought I longed for a peaceful existence. I was a patsy for AA because they promised a peaceful existence. However, they didn't tell me I had to take a lobotomy to get it. But isn't that really what AA offers, an emotional/intellectual lobotomy? Of course with those two gone, where is invention, improvisation, creativity? In the toilet I believe. Without emotional and intellectual autonomy nothing is invented except the expected. A better micro chip instead of a new concept that makes the chip obsolete. Would you go to an art class and see paint by number? Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Yet we all paid homage to life by the numbers and now it sounds equally ridiculous. My vision and definition of a " Peaceful Life " was not to attain peace by giving up everything that brought strong emotion, I wanted freedom from fear so that I could live. I even listened to one AA lecture on how to avoid being Too Happy! (Honest Injun) Also one on not getting angry and one on " Processing Grief " They had it laid out neatly with time limits. Wouldn't doing all these things well be the mark of a control freak? Someone who not only must control their environment, but their emotions. They have a name for that, I believe Sociopath would be the name of doing all these perfectly. We scream loudly about what AA and AA folks have done to us. Would a fair description of the behavior we object to be Passive/Aggressive behavior. Someone who intentionally hurts you and then exhausts themselves apologizing or acts like it was someone else that did it. Both a result (I think) of suppressing anger. According to what I've learned anger will come out, one way or another. Anger doesn't cause drunkeness, putting alcohol in my mouth is the cause of that. I'd rather be angry for a little while, than miserable for a long while ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 Absolutely bitchin' post, . As you can see not only do I need deprogramming from AA, but from Southern California surf culture as well. I spent my day driving to Mexico with a twenty year veteran of the step war's. She's been sober for the last ten years and rose through the ranks to become a step guru, one of the AA elite. Long story, short she recently suffered some terrible losses, battled depression, cut back on meetings, and soon found herself demoted to AA pariah. All of her friends turned their backs on her. Her best friend over a10 year period dealt the final blow. The friend had an extravagant 10 year birthday and didn't even invite her. When my friend asked to meet with her and talk about it , she was told that she needed to ask her sponsor first! Absolutely disgraceful! And I'm just giving you the short form. It's much worse than my abbreviated description. Hopefully she will fill you all in on the gory details herself. I was just a grumbling refusenik so I didn't have much to lose in the end. She was at the top of AA game, blasting her way into the fourth dimension with an inexhaustible supply of newcomers for fuel when all of a sudden all the wheels came off. Today was the first time she'd had someone to talk to who really understood what she'd been through, and she appreciated the validation. I really understood how she felt since my arrival on this site brought much the same sentiment for me. I was also able to let her know that many of the women on this site had also experienced a lot of the same shame and guilt about no longer attending many their regular meetings. Listening to her was just like reading the posts on 12 Step Free. I just wish this lady had a computer. An interesting footnote: On a previous post I mentioned major speaker meetings based on Clancy's Pacific Group popping up throughout the country. Get this. There is one such meeting just up the freeway from me. My fallen friend told me today that it's resident Top Guru(25+ years) just drank recently. Sadly, he happens to be a pretty nice guy with a great sense of humor, a hell of an intellect, and a really funny pitch. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you have heard his tapes. He's not your typical stomach turning zealot. I almost tempted to pay him a visit and do another Un-Step call. I don't know though. He's pretty old and the shock might kill him if his family(all AA) and following didn't first. After today's experience I'm confident my future attendance of meetings or subsequent relapse is as likely as the second coming of Bill at the AA 2000 Convention in Minneapolis. Anyone want to set up a booth!!! We could really stir things up. Hey Apple, how about plane with an " alternative recovery " banner flying over the big stadium meeting(50,000 people), dropping AADeprogramming leaflets on the brainwashed masses below. A delicious image, n'est ce pas? By the way, love the AADeprogramming site. Is it yours? D Hall wrote: > > Hey ; > > Good to hear from you. The Author was 's boyfriend and she > posted it. However, she neglected to tell him that AA brooked no > dissent from the party line, he thought both AA and the free zone > discussed each other like the D's and R's in an election. > > I disagree that the 12step free zone would die with the demise of > AA et al. The free zone is an idea marketplace. The XA's are our > topic now, but color AA gone and we'd be comparing SMART and > RR and 16steps et al, we would still have a purpose because > anyone can jump in with any idea. The principle according to > kenr1, is free exchange of ideas without the groupers picking on > the individual. Subtract the groupers, your left with free exchange > of ideas, a principle that I hope never dies. > > The difficult part is that folks who say hurting AA kills people, will > be very right upon the demise of AA. Many folks after being in AA > et al for many years cannot face truth, personal responsibility or life > without group approval. Some of these will die at their own hand > like ancient warriors who couldn't face defeat. Where we see > opportunity, they see fear of the unknown, perhaps unknowable, > where we see challenge, they see failure, where we see options, > they see foreboding ambiguity and lack of authority, where we see > a prison, they see structured living. To all of these, Fear Is The > Key. > > I will never see, an opportunity, challenge or option, if I am > burdened with a total fear of the unknown and long for the time > tested authoritarian way. While drinking, like most I think, I lived > on the edge and thought I longed for a peaceful existence. I was a > patsy for AA because they promised a peaceful existence. > However, they didn't tell me I had to take a lobotomy to get it. But > isn't that really what AA offers, an emotional/intellectual lobotomy? > Of course with those two gone, where is invention, improvisation, > creativity? In the toilet I believe. Without emotional and intellectual > autonomy nothing is invented except the expected. A better micro > chip instead of a new concept that makes the chip obsolete. > Would you go to an art class and see paint by number? Sounds > ridiculous doesn't it? Yet we all paid homage to life by the > numbers and now it sounds equally ridiculous. > > My vision and definition of a " Peaceful Life " was not to attain peace > by giving up everything that brought strong emotion, I wanted > freedom from fear so that I could live. I even listened to one AA > lecture on how to avoid being Too Happy! (Honest Injun) Also one > on not getting angry and one on " Processing Grief " They had it > laid out neatly with time limits. Wouldn't doing all these things well > be the mark of a control freak? Someone who not only must > control their environment, but their emotions. They have a name for > that, I believe Sociopath would be the name of doing all these > perfectly. > > We scream loudly about what AA and AA folks have done to us. > Would a fair description of the behavior we object to be > Passive/Aggressive behavior. Someone who intentionally hurts you > and then exhausts themselves apologizing or acts like it was > someone else that did it. Both a result (I think) of suppressing > anger. According to what I've learned anger will come out, one way > or another. Anger doesn't cause drunkeness, putting alcohol in my > mouth is the cause of that. I'd rather be angry for a little while, > than miserable for a long while > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't let the next virus knock you out! 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Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 If one considers the value of personal freedoms relinquished, abandoned intellectual integrity, and thousands of hours spent on meetings and step related activities, I would hardly consider in my wildest imagination that Alcoholics Anonymous is FREE. Many AA's feel that they will never be able to repay their debt to AA. To AA I say in my best defiant N.Y. tone, " DEBT THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " JOHN Judith Stillwater wrote: > > Hi ! > > > > > The difficult part is that folks who say hurting AA kills people, will be > very right upon the demise of AA. Many folks after being in AA et al for > many years cannot face truth, personal responsibility or life without group > approval. Some of these will die at their own hand like ancient warriors > who couldn't face defeat.> > > While I agree that removing AA from people's lives could potentially be > disastrous, I think that AA will probably not die out totally, at least, not > for a long time. I think AA is perfect for certain people in that it > provides an alternative addiction; also it is free. My only hope is that > alternatives will eventually (hopefully soon) be offered to people who seek > help with addiction. I think SMART is positioned to be the best competitor > because it's also free and non-profit. We shall see... > > Judith > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. > Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS at checkout > http://clickhere./click/432 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 > If one considers the value of personal freedoms relinquished, abandoned intellectual integrity, and thousands of hours spent on meetings and step related activities, I would hardly consider in my wildest imagination that Alcoholics Anonymous is FREE. Many AA's feel that they will never be able to repay their debt to AA. To AA I say in my best defiant N.Y. tone, " DEBT THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " > I stand by what I said. Money is a big factor for the majority of people. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 > If one considers the value of personal freedoms relinquished, abandoned intellectual integrity, and thousands of hours spent on meetings and step related activities, I would hardly consider in my wildest imagination that Alcoholics Anonymous is FREE. Many AA's feel that they will never be able to repay their debt to AA. To AA I say in my best defiant N.Y. tone, " DEBT THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " > I stand by what I said. Money is a big factor for the majority of people. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 Yes let's do... We'll set up a booth. The bottom line is that reason just cannot compete with the strength and seductiveness of a large group of people all saying the same thing. It's a mass appeal thing as far as I see it. It's the religious sensation that's sweeping the nation. Yes, the site is mine . Boy was it fun to put it up... Apple > Anyone want to set up a booth!!! We could really stir things up. Hey > Apple, how about plane with an " alternative recovery " banner flying over > the big stadium meeting(50,000 people), dropping AADeprogramming > leaflets on the brainwashed masses below. > > A delicious image, n'est ce pas? > > By the way, love the AADeprogramming site. Is it yours? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 Hi ; If the guy you're talking about is Judge Gates(Sounded like him when you said excellent sense of humor), I have heard one of his tapes. I think he's the brother of the former LA Police Chief. Hope you can get your friend on the internet. It can be done quite cheaply. This old hog I'm using I gave $100 for. It's an AST 486dx33 and is fine for lists, usenet etc. No sound, no cd rom, but it came with a 28.8 modem, so all I had to do was install the software and hook up the phone line. We have two better ones, but I just like this one. Has dos 6.22 and win 3.11. I can lock up our p-166 with win95 in about 30 minutes, but have no problem with 3.11 beyond getting too many windows open at one time. I need to stick some more memory in it, only 16meg right now. Not the fastest, but it gets the job done. Something like this beats the devil out of not being connected. I even have browsers and email on my 286's in the shop. They are not however practical for anybody learning. Everything is done from Dos in the 286, because it's only a 16 bit processor and slow at 10mhz. I just use them because I have them. Matter of fact I still have my first old 8088 computer, big old 21.4 meg hard drive, Mass storage they called it back then. Now a single game can take more space than that! Enuff bout puters. I imagine your friend was a bit surprised to learn her story is not rare among us. I hope she can at least get a peek at us to know she has a quite a bit of company and not just in California or for that matter the USA. A treatment incident I had completely for gotten about till a couple of days ago on another list. It happened to a couple of women, not me, but I was present through the whole nasty thing. In May of 1989, I was in Treatment at Mercy Hospital in Des Moines. The facility was on the third floor but much of what we did was on two and in the basement 1st sub level. One woman had claustrophobia and always took the stairs. Another woman from our group would walk with her. The counsellors started getting on them, telling them it was mostly BS and they didn't have time to be waiting on them all the time. They withstood it till some suck up patients began getting on them along with counsellors. They got on the elevator with pressure from a woman counsellor, in the basement, the counsellor got on also. The elevator stuck between two and three and both women panicked. Three of us got crosswise of the opening like chimney climbers one atop the other and forced the door about 3 inches before it stuck on something and we could get it no further. The counsellor was standing dumbstruck hollering nonsense orders. One of the women had fainted dead away and the other was practically bouncing off the walls. The strongest guy got on all fours and got the woman to stand on his back pressed against the crack in the door so she could see light and get air. While another guy was using the elevator phone to get help, we got the other woman's head as close to the opening as possible. One young girl started mouth to mouth on her because she was breathing so slow and in spasms, but she came out of it. The counsellor was totally useless, not even thinking to use the phone while others were occupied. It took in the area of 45 minutes for the engineers to get us out. Next morning at big group the counsellors started in on the women for causing a disturbance with the ultimate self pity and some patients sucked up and continued it. I lost it and told them exactly what I thought including slime and scum. Course they turned on me and one woman came over and said " Thank you , you've been a friend and I'll miss you. " She kept right on going and I've never seen her since. The other woman left later that day. I of course was accused of being the reason they left, bucause of my inappropriate behavior, which consisted of getting angry. I'm sure it got to me on some level, but not on the surface. Everyone got accused of nonsense if you didn't kiss their patoot. The suck ups could fail drug tests and get defended by the staff because they were trying hard. The rest of us laughed, they were trying hard alright, do you know how much effort it takes to get someone to bring grass or coke to a treatment center? 8-) At some point I just quit cooperating and did as I pleased. I graduated anyway, still have the chip somewhere. I discovered that to graduate you just had to have a way to pay the 8 thousand and be there. My bill was around 11 due to bill padding with useless medical tests. Rose was really sold on the place untill folks besides me started telling her what was going on. In her part, they were doing stuff under a real shrink with counsellors as aides. They were doing role playing, and breaking into groups of four and doing real issues and good stuff, while on our side their was no shrink. Like you perhaps, I 'd like to look a couple of them up and just insult the devil out of them and say " If you'll stand for that you'll bend over for this. " 8-) Then tell them, " You're right where you're supposed to be " Like you, I hate that phrase. That center closed in 92, for lack of patients. Reputations travel in the alcoholic's world. I believe it was the first of a bunch to close. Perhaps one day they'll all be gone. There's not many left around here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 Hey ; As I mentioned to someone, you are recovering from AA and getting your feet on the ground much faster than I did. Probably the only thing or maybe two that kept me away was the urge to drink was almost constant while in AA and it diappeared a short time after getting away. That wanting a drink all the time would get me eventually. Before I was convinced it was because I wasn't working the program correctly and had plenty of folks to tell me that belief was correct. My last stint in AA started at around 14 or more months sober and lasted to about two years sober. Before I went back to AA I handn't had the drink need for quite a while, but it returned after I started back to AA. When, a month or so after I totally quit AA, it went away again, I was convinced I should not go back to AA, but didn't know what I would do. Des Moines was 85 miles away. They had Recovery Incorporated, but I couldn't get in because it's not for drunks. I went to a counsellor for a while and he put a sneaky move on me to get me locked up, and it failed due to a record mix up. He wasn't really a counsellor I later learned, but did have a degree in social work. Far as I know he's still here. I saw him at the hospital last winter. In the month you've been out, you've got about to where I was at three or four years out. My anger at the things done to me and at the folks who did them, kept me going too. That's why I continually say anger won't get me drunk, putting alcohol in my mouth got me drunk, nothing else. If I don't drink the stuff I won't get drunk no matter how pissed off I am. Off course I'm not trying to sell the idea that being angry 24/7 is a gret idea, but it won't get me drunk, might blow a hole in my heart carried to extreme, but won't cause intoxication. I hope things continue to go well for you and it sounds as if they will. Besides, when the usual Shit Happens that befalls everyone, youll handle it. We about have to or quit, because going back and taking that AA abuse is just no longer an option. A comfortable prison cell is still a cage. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 It has taken me a while to finally break free of AA and NA....and for that matter, anything 12 step related. As someone mentioned here, I find myself recoiling from it like a hot flame. Looking back at the first 5 years I spent in those rooms, totally immersed in it...I have to laugh that it is obvious why it seemed to fit like a familiar glove. I grew up on guilt and shame...my mother was a religious fanatic, and a prescription junkie at that. I don't know how many times I heard the phrase " You would be no where without me! " and all sorts of admonishments that strong feelings could land you in the looney bin. Anger was forbidden, and being really happy wasn't exactly encouraged either. Suffering was a noble endeaver. The rooms of AA seemed just like home. Somewhere along the line (being drug and alcohol free helped) I began to figure out it was me who was making the decision to not use and choosing to improve my life...not the masochistic steps and certainly not the whacked-out people who frequented those rooms. I did take that phrase " Take what you want and leave the rest " to heart....although it is repeated endlessly but seldom followed. Little by little I was scrapping almost everything as it was beginning to feel as harmful as drinking or using drugs for me. The few things I found helpful, I realized could be found outside of the rooms and free of the endless program babble and idiotic concepts applied to every situation regardless of whether they were appropriate for the given situation. It has been helpful to find people to have in my life who weren't totally obsessed with drinking and getting high. I meet them all of the time...at school and as a result of having a variety of interests. None of them have been to AA. It's been helpful to have people I can be totally honest with. Again, all of the people I have in my life really listen to me, and I feel I can trust them. Not one of them barrages me with stupid program jargon.They actually encourage me to think and act for myself. What a great concept! Anger has become a trusted friend.(as well as all of the other " normal " feelings every person has) It got me out of those blasted rooms filled with some of the sickest people I have ever met. I have so many stories I can't even begin to recall them all now. I was at a conference for parents who had experienced the death of a child...and the main speaker talked about the phrase " God never gives you more than you can handle " as being one of the stupidest things a grieving parent could ever hear. I haven't been to a meeting in over 6 years. My life feels like it began the day I left AA. I haven't been back, and my life has never been better. I found out the world wasn't flat, and no, I haven't started drinking or using drugs again, despite any difficult times I have had that are just a part of living life. There are a lot of places I can go in the world to learn healthy coping skills, and AA did me more harm than good. I am finding that I am a pretty good judge of what works for me. I am very wary of anyone who tries to tell me that they know more than I do about what is good for me. BTW ...I HATE the Oprah Show and all of those " experts " she has on who have written a book to be applied to every area in your life. Any damn fool can write a book. I have really enjoyed reading postings on this list. Having a place to talk about the bad experiences people have had in AA and other 12 step groups is part of the process of finally being allowed to be honest and un-do some of the intense programming that goes on there. Rebekah (Church of the Divine Rebekah) I'm not looking for converts...form your own beliefs! eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 It has taken me a while to finally break free of AA and NA....and for that matter, anything 12 step related. As someone mentioned here, I find myself recoiling from it like a hot flame. Looking back at the first 5 years I spent in those rooms, totally immersed in it...I have to laugh that it is obvious why it seemed to fit like a familiar glove. I grew up on guilt and shame...my mother was a religious fanatic, and a prescription junkie at that. I don't know how many times I heard the phrase " You would be no where without me! " and all sorts of admonishments that strong feelings could land you in the looney bin. Anger was forbidden, and being really happy wasn't exactly encouraged either. Suffering was a noble endeaver. The rooms of AA seemed just like home. Somewhere along the line (being drug and alcohol free helped) I began to figure out it was me who was making the decision to not use and choosing to improve my life...not the masochistic steps and certainly not the whacked-out people who frequented those rooms. I did take that phrase " Take what you want and leave the rest " to heart....although it is repeated endlessly but seldom followed. Little by little I was scrapping almost everything as it was beginning to feel as harmful as drinking or using drugs for me. The few things I found helpful, I realized could be found outside of the rooms and free of the endless program babble and idiotic concepts applied to every situation regardless of whether they were appropriate for the given situation. It has been helpful to find people to have in my life who weren't totally obsessed with drinking and getting high. I meet them all of the time...at school and as a result of having a variety of interests. None of them have been to AA. It's been helpful to have people I can be totally honest with. Again, all of the people I have in my life really listen to me, and I feel I can trust them. Not one of them barrages me with stupid program jargon.They actually encourage me to think and act for myself. What a great concept! Anger has become a trusted friend.(as well as all of the other " normal " feelings every person has) It got me out of those blasted rooms filled with some of the sickest people I have ever met. I have so many stories I can't even begin to recall them all now. I was at a conference for parents who had experienced the death of a child...and the main speaker talked about the phrase " God never gives you more than you can handle " as being one of the stupidest things a grieving parent could ever hear. I haven't been to a meeting in over 6 years. My life feels like it began the day I left AA. I haven't been back, and my life has never been better. I found out the world wasn't flat, and no, I haven't started drinking or using drugs again, despite any difficult times I have had that are just a part of living life. There are a lot of places I can go in the world to learn healthy coping skills, and AA did me more harm than good. I am finding that I am a pretty good judge of what works for me. I am very wary of anyone who tries to tell me that they know more than I do about what is good for me. BTW ...I HATE the Oprah Show and all of those " experts " she has on who have written a book to be applied to every area in your life. Any damn fool can write a book. I have really enjoyed reading postings on this list. Having a place to talk about the bad experiences people have had in AA and other 12 step groups is part of the process of finally being allowed to be honest and un-do some of the intense programming that goes on there. Rebekah (Church of the Divine Rebekah) I'm not looking for converts...form your own beliefs! eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 AMEN BRO, I figure if the first year of crippling, suicidal, agitated, medication denied depression, coupled with the incessant patronizing drone of AAspeak, punctuated with the the cherished phrase " You're right where you're supposed to be " , didn't get me drunk then nothing will. MY SMARMY METAPHOR OF THE DAY: This site is like a cyberspace underground railroad for AA slaves. By the way what does 8-) mean? D Hall wrote: > > Hey ; > > As I mentioned to someone, you are recovering from AA and > getting your feet on the ground much faster than I did. Probably > the only thing or maybe two that kept me away was the urge to > drink was almost constant while in AA and it diappeared a short > time after getting away. That wanting a drink all the time would get > me eventually. Before I was convinced it was because I wasn't > working the program correctly and had plenty of folks to tell me > that belief was correct. > > My last stint in AA started at around 14 or more months sober and > lasted to about two years sober. Before I went back to AA I > handn't had the drink need for quite a while, but it returned after I > started back to AA. When, a month or so after I totally quit AA, it > went away again, I was convinced I should not go back to AA, but > didn't know what I would do. Des Moines was 85 miles away. > They had Recovery Incorporated, but I couldn't get in because it's > not for drunks. I went to a counsellor for a while and he put a > sneaky move on me to get me locked up, and it failed due to a > record mix up. He wasn't really a counsellor I later learned, but did > have a degree in social work. Far as I know he's still here. I saw > him at the hospital last winter. > > In the month you've been out, you've got about to where I was at > three or four years out. My anger at the things done to me and at > the folks who did them, kept me going too. That's why I continually > say anger won't get me drunk, putting alcohol in my mouth got me > drunk, nothing else. If I don't drink the stuff I won't get drunk no > matter how pissed off I am. Off course I'm not trying to sell the > idea that being angry 24/7 is a gret idea, but it won't get me drunk, > might blow a hole in my heart carried to extreme, but won't cause > intoxication. > > I hope things continue to go well for you and it sounds as if they > will. Besides, when the usual Shit Happens that befalls everyone, > youll handle it. We about have to or quit, because going back and > taking that AA abuse is just no longer an option. A comfortable > prison cell is still a cage. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Just Tell Us What You Want... > Respond.com - Shopping the World for You! > http://clickhere./click/390 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 AMEN BRO, I figure if the first year of crippling, suicidal, agitated, medication denied depression, coupled with the incessant patronizing drone of AAspeak, punctuated with the the cherished phrase " You're right where you're supposed to be " , didn't get me drunk then nothing will. MY SMARMY METAPHOR OF THE DAY: This site is like a cyberspace underground railroad for AA slaves. By the way what does 8-) mean? D Hall wrote: > > Hey ; > > As I mentioned to someone, you are recovering from AA and > getting your feet on the ground much faster than I did. Probably > the only thing or maybe two that kept me away was the urge to > drink was almost constant while in AA and it diappeared a short > time after getting away. That wanting a drink all the time would get > me eventually. Before I was convinced it was because I wasn't > working the program correctly and had plenty of folks to tell me > that belief was correct. > > My last stint in AA started at around 14 or more months sober and > lasted to about two years sober. Before I went back to AA I > handn't had the drink need for quite a while, but it returned after I > started back to AA. When, a month or so after I totally quit AA, it > went away again, I was convinced I should not go back to AA, but > didn't know what I would do. Des Moines was 85 miles away. > They had Recovery Incorporated, but I couldn't get in because it's > not for drunks. I went to a counsellor for a while and he put a > sneaky move on me to get me locked up, and it failed due to a > record mix up. He wasn't really a counsellor I later learned, but did > have a degree in social work. Far as I know he's still here. I saw > him at the hospital last winter. > > In the month you've been out, you've got about to where I was at > three or four years out. My anger at the things done to me and at > the folks who did them, kept me going too. That's why I continually > say anger won't get me drunk, putting alcohol in my mouth got me > drunk, nothing else. If I don't drink the stuff I won't get drunk no > matter how pissed off I am. Off course I'm not trying to sell the > idea that being angry 24/7 is a gret idea, but it won't get me drunk, > might blow a hole in my heart carried to extreme, but won't cause > intoxication. > > I hope things continue to go well for you and it sounds as if they > will. Besides, when the usual Shit Happens that befalls everyone, > youll handle it. We about have to or quit, because going back and > taking that AA abuse is just no longer an option. A comfortable > prison cell is still a cage. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Just Tell Us What You Want... > Respond.com - Shopping the World for You! > http://clickhere./click/390 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 Hi ; The 8-) is supposed to be a grin on a guy wearing glasses, turned sideways. Takes a bit of imagination to fill it out though. Like your underground railroad idea. However, I feel in reality, AA is the streetcar/subway and we are the Elevated railway. We don't need a hole in the ground to stay on track! We may be in the minority now, but we are picking up steam. Several new folks just since you came on board. This group will eventually get too big and spawn others. In this day and age where most folks seem to want a Messiah to save them from the world as it is, we might grow slowly. Free thinking is not in vogue. Folks are rather pretty ripe for an Adolph Hitler or a Winston Churchill type to tell them how and when to think. Were that not true, Charlton Heston and his " Guns will save you " message would be laughed and legislated out of business. I guess maybe his real message is " Happiness is a warm gun, or, My uzi has a longer barrel that yours " Maybe " Kill your deer and clean it instantly with a cyclic rate of 720 rounds per minute and a double stacked 60 round clip. " You got to keep extras though, because that 60 round clip emptys in 6 seconds and you might miss. God how stupid do they think we are! Did I ever mention I'm opinionated. Maybe you figured that out. 8-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 Hi ; The 8-) is supposed to be a grin on a guy wearing glasses, turned sideways. Takes a bit of imagination to fill it out though. Like your underground railroad idea. However, I feel in reality, AA is the streetcar/subway and we are the Elevated railway. We don't need a hole in the ground to stay on track! We may be in the minority now, but we are picking up steam. Several new folks just since you came on board. This group will eventually get too big and spawn others. In this day and age where most folks seem to want a Messiah to save them from the world as it is, we might grow slowly. Free thinking is not in vogue. Folks are rather pretty ripe for an Adolph Hitler or a Winston Churchill type to tell them how and when to think. Were that not true, Charlton Heston and his " Guns will save you " message would be laughed and legislated out of business. I guess maybe his real message is " Happiness is a warm gun, or, My uzi has a longer barrel that yours " Maybe " Kill your deer and clean it instantly with a cyclic rate of 720 rounds per minute and a double stacked 60 round clip. " You got to keep extras though, because that 60 round clip emptys in 6 seconds and you might miss. God how stupid do they think we are! Did I ever mention I'm opinionated. Maybe you figured that out. 8-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 Hi Judith; I agree with both you and . In terms of cash, AA is free or practically so. In human terms, the price is extravagant indeed! However, most folks like me don't realize the price until later, after they've paid with years of their lives, and through the nose. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 1999 Report Share Posted July 7, 1999 Hi Judith; I agree with both you and . In terms of cash, AA is free or practically so. In human terms, the price is extravagant indeed! However, most folks like me don't realize the price until later, after they've paid with years of their lives, and through the nose. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 1999 Report Share Posted July 8, 1999 Welcome, Rebekah! Great post! I feel so much like you. I have grown by leaps and bounds since leaving AA @3 years ago. I was a " guru " on the steps, had memorized " How It Works " well enough to be asked to recite it opening meetings. What a frickin' honor, huh?? The guilt and shame has been there all my life too, and AA only exacerbated my feelings woth their methods. I had an argument with my mom on the phone a couple of weeks ago. She really wants me to believe in god since my fiance's son was killed @ 3 months ago. There's a reason, she says. I say, " What is the reason? " I ask. " It's not for you to know, " she says. " Why shouldn't I know why a sweet, loving, gentle 21-year-old boy is taken from the family that loves him so much and a son that really needs his father growing up? " Well, you get the idea. I love my mother, but I won't accept pat words and phrases. Sounds too much like AA brainwashing...! wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5391 > > It has taken me a while to finally break free of AA and NA....and for that > matter, anything 12 step related. > As someone mentioned here, I find myself recoiling from it like a hot flame. > > > Looking back at the first 5 years I spent in those rooms, totally immersed > in it...I have to laugh that it is obvious why it seemed to fit like a > familiar glove. I grew up on guilt and shame...my mother was a religious > fanatic, and a prescription junkie at that. I don't know how many times I > heard the phrase " You would be no where without me! " and all sorts of > admonishments that strong feelings could land you in the looney bin. Anger > was forbidden, and being really happy wasn't exactly encouraged either. > Suffering was a noble endeaver. > > The rooms of AA seemed just like home. Somewhere along the line (being drug > and alcohol free helped) I began to figure out it was me who was making the > decision to not use and choosing to improve my life...not the masochistic > steps and certainly not the whacked-out people who frequented those rooms. I > did take that phrase " Take what you want and leave the rest " to > heart....although it is repeated endlessly but seldom followed. Little by > little I was scrapping almost everything as it was beginning to feel as > harmful as drinking or using drugs for me. The few things I found helpful, I > realized could be found outside of the rooms and free of the endless > program babble and idiotic concepts applied to every situation regardless of > whether they were appropriate for the given situation. > > It has been helpful to find people to have in my life who weren't totally > obsessed with drinking and getting high. I meet them all of the time...at > school and as a result of having a variety of interests. None of them have > been to AA. It's been helpful to have people I can be totally honest with. > Again, all of the people I have in my life really listen to me, and I feel I > can trust them. Not one of them barrages me with stupid program jargon.They > actually encourage me to think and act for myself. What a great concept! > > Anger has become a trusted friend.(as well as all of the other " normal " > feelings every person has) It got me out of those blasted rooms filled with > some of the sickest people > I have ever met. I have so many stories I can't even begin to recall them > all now. > > I was at a conference for parents who had experienced the death of a > child...and the main speaker talked about the phrase " God never gives you > more than you can handle " as being one of the stupidest things a grieving > parent could ever hear. > > I haven't been to a meeting in over 6 years. My life feels like it began > the day I left AA. I haven't been back, and my life has never been better. I > found out the world wasn't flat, and no, I haven't started drinking or using > drugs again, despite any difficult times I have had that are just a part of > living life. There are a lot of places I can go in the world to learn > healthy coping skills, and AA did me more harm than good. I am finding that > I am a pretty good judge of what works for me. I am very wary of anyone who > tries to tell me that they know more than I do about what is good for me. > BTW ...I HATE the Oprah Show and all of those " experts " she has on who have > written a book to be applied to every area in your life. Any damn fool can > write a book. > > I have really enjoyed reading postings on this list. Having a place to > talk about the bad experiences people have had in AA and other 12 step > groups is part of the process of finally being allowed to be honest and > un-do some of the intense programming that goes on there. Rebekah > (Church of the Divine Rebekah) I'm not looking for converts...form your own > beliefs! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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