Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 My names is and I am new to this list. Briefly, I would like to state a few things about me as an introduction. I am 49, a college student, ultrarunner, and disabled veteran. I have been diagnosed with PTSD from Vietnam combat and other trauma that is based in my childhood from physical and verbal abuse. I have an extensive history of substance abuse (25 years). Currently, I help coordinate a self-management and recovery group SMART here in Wyoming. About 2 years ago I relapsed while in a relationship and the law became involved. I was placed on probation and I am required to attend 3 -12 step meetings a week during the course of this probation. I attend 12 step meetings nightly and one could say that I am " in the thick of it all " . All the irrational, illogical, bullshit that is, and, at times, it is extremely irritating for to sit and listen to this false and dangerous doctrine. I have been thoroughly schooled and taught to change my behavior using the cognitive behavioral approach to therapy (CBT) and this 12 step stuff sharply conflicts with the rational teachings that are found in CBT. My purpose here is to seek new ideas, concepts, that relate to changing self-defeating behaviors and sharing them with others. I believe, as well as most here, that 12 step dogma only work for a few and for those that it does not work (99%) it is dangrerous and could be fatal. After returning from the meeting last night and listening to 12 step hardliners of the group preach and indoctrinate the youth present into 12 step dogma I am telling myself there is another way. Knowing that what they " preach " is dangerous for them if they believe and practice what is " suggested " , I am seekings ways that I can help these young people change addiction bahavior using the CBT approach which makes great sense to me. I am however, and as you can imagine, up against a powerful vicous machine as it is found in the 12 steps. I have a desire to help the young people use their brain and rational thought processes. Does anyone have any suggestions here. Re: A & A-oops > > Hi Carol; > > I think it is important to recognize that folks here know their own > mind. If I tell my wife, " Gee I've never seen that outfit before, it > looks great on you. " And she replies " Oh this old rag, I picked it > up at a garage sale and it's not my color, etc " Is she being modest > or telling me I have terrible taste? I feel she's telling me I don't have > a clue to what looks good. It's AA our sponsor tells us we don't > know our own minds. If I apologize to someone, the appropriate > responses are accept or reject. Unless of course the person is my > teacher of protocol, then they might tell me that an apology for so > small an infraction is unnecessary. Or even that my apology was > improperly worded. > > Otherwise I would think the person would believe I knew why I was > apologizing. I think especially on this list, folks should be able to > speak their mind as they see it, make the decisions they see fit, > without being told even indirectly that they don't know why they are > doing something. That is what we left behind in AA, other folks > telling us what to say and what to believe and that we didn't know > when dinner time was unless they were serving wine. > > > > > > Errr, it is okay to apologize. Sometimes it is right and considerate to do > > so and respects the other person and acknowledges your awareness that you > > have not acted your best. But,,, then again I could be wrong. > > Carol > > > > > > > > At 10:34 PM 7/19/99 EDT, you wrote: > > > we should all be ranting more in my opinion. I like nothing more than > > >getting a good rant off. It proves to me my closed AA mind, and always > > >apologetic self is slowly disapearing. I have no time anymore for self > > >centred individuals who hangdog around just WAITING to accept apologies from > > >people who have spoken there piece strongly. As a matter of fact I can't > > >stand people who think they deserve an apology. This is a DISCUSSION > > group. I > > >am to tired to have to explain my every thought or statement. Thats what we > > >do here, discuss vent sometimes take stands. But we don't apologize. She > > only > > >apologized out of habit, sort of like God BLessing when one sneezes. I > > revoke > > >her apology > > >Jen > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >Want the power to purchase wisely? Productopia has the answers. > > >http://clickhere./click/553 > > > > > > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > Life is a candy store. > > > > Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at > > http://www.bcrecovernet.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws. > > http://clickhere./click/552 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. > Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 > at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 Welcome, , I have a daughter in AA-been there about the time I walked away three years ago. She's 20. I have pretty much let her go her way in AA and said nothing, because there isnt anything else that she is exposed to. ALL of her friends are in AA-I know you are familiar with the stereotype...If I had something like SMART or some basic CBT help group-I would steer her there in a heartbeat. I don't take kindly to having " religion " forced on me-once I realized what I was dealing with-a wolf in sheep's clothing. It took me 15 years to come to the realization that some of AA's teachings and philosophy was contradictory and convoluted sense of reality. I do not like the fact that she is in AA, but I am glad she is recovering from cocaine addiction. I have asked the same question you have. Sorry I don't have any answers. It seems a lot of people get stuck in AA because they are told there is nothing else by other members. " Staying with the pack " mentality, you could call it. I thought there was nothing on the other side of AA for a long time. It's almost like the belief in 1491 that the earth was flat. The earth is round and there is so much out there! <001901bed394$096cd320$d032a1d-@jkling> wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6158 > My names is and I am new to this list. Briefly, I would like to state > a few things about me as an introduction. I am 49, a college student, > ultrarunner, and disabled veteran. I have been diagnosed with PTSD from > Vietnam combat and other trauma that is based in my childhood from physical > and verbal abuse. I have an extensive history of substance abuse (25 > years). Currently, I help coordinate a self-management and recovery group > SMART here in Wyoming. > > About 2 years ago I relapsed while in a relationship and the law became > involved. I was placed on probation and I am required to attend 3 -12 step > meetings a week during the course of this probation. I attend 12 step > meetings nightly and one could say that I am " in the thick of it all " . All > the irrational, illogical, bullshit that is, and, at times, it is extremely > irritating for to sit and listen to this false and dangerous doctrine. I > have been thoroughly schooled and taught to change my behavior using the > cognitive behavioral approach to therapy (CBT) and this 12 step stuff > sharply conflicts with the rational teachings that are found in CBT. > > My purpose here is to seek new ideas, concepts, that relate to changing > self-defeating behaviors and sharing them with others. I believe, as well > as most here, that 12 step dogma only work for a few and for those that it > does not work (99%) it is dangrerous and could be fatal. > > After returning from the meeting last night and listening to 12 step > hardliners of the group preach and indoctrinate the youth present into 12 > step dogma I am telling myself there is another way. Knowing that what they > " preach " is dangerous for them if they believe and practice what is > " suggested " , I am seekings ways that I can help these young people change > addiction bahavior using the CBT approach which makes great sense to me. I > am however, and as you can imagine, up against a powerful vicous machine as > it is found in the 12 steps. I have a desire to help the young people use > their brain and rational thought processes. Does anyone have any > suggestions here. > > > Re: A & A-oops > > > > Hi Carol; > > > > I think it is important to recognize that folks here know their own > > mind. If I tell my wife, " Gee I've never seen that outfit before, it > > looks great on you. " And she replies " Oh this old rag, I picked it > > up at a garage sale and it's not my color, etc " Is she being modest > > or telling me I have terrible taste? I feel she's telling me I don't have > > a clue to what looks good. It's AA our sponsor tells us we don't > > know our own minds. If I apologize to someone, the appropriate > > responses are accept or reject. Unless of course the person is my > > teacher of protocol, then they might tell me that an apology for so > > small an infraction is unnecessary. Or even that my apology was > > improperly worded. > > > > Otherwise I would think the person would believe I knew why I was > > apologizing. I think especially on this list, folks should be able to > > speak their mind as they see it, make the decisions they see fit, > > without being told even indirectly that they don't know why they are > > doing something. That is what we left behind in AA, other folks > > telling us what to say and what to believe and that we didn't know > > when dinner time was unless they were serving wine. > > > > > > > > > > > Errr, it is okay to apologize. Sometimes it is right and considerate to > do > > > so and respects the other person and acknowledges your awareness that > you > > > have not acted your best. But,,, then again I could be wrong. > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > At 10:34 PM 7/19/99 EDT, you wrote: > > > > we should all be ranting more in my opinion. I like nothing more > than > > > >getting a good rant off. It proves to me my closed AA mind, and always > > > >apologetic self is slowly disapearing. I have no time anymore for self > > > >centred individuals who hangdog around just WAITING to accept apologies > from > > > >people who have spoken there piece strongly. As a matter of fact I > can't > > > >stand people who think they deserve an apology. This is a DISCUSSION > > > group. I > > > >am to tired to have to explain my every thought or statement. Thats > what we > > > >do here, discuss vent sometimes take stands. But we don't apologize. > She > > > only > > > >apologized out of habit, sort of like God BLessing when one sneezes. I > > > revoke > > > >her apology > > > >Jen > > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > >Want the power to purchase wisely? Productopia has the answers. > > > >http://clickhere./click/553 > > > > > > > > > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > Life is a candy store. > > > > > > Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at > > > http://www.bcrecovernet.org > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws. > > > http://clickhere./click/552 > > > > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. > > Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 > > at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 Welcome, , I have a daughter in AA-been there about the time I walked away three years ago. She's 20. I have pretty much let her go her way in AA and said nothing, because there isnt anything else that she is exposed to. ALL of her friends are in AA-I know you are familiar with the stereotype...If I had something like SMART or some basic CBT help group-I would steer her there in a heartbeat. I don't take kindly to having " religion " forced on me-once I realized what I was dealing with-a wolf in sheep's clothing. It took me 15 years to come to the realization that some of AA's teachings and philosophy was contradictory and convoluted sense of reality. I do not like the fact that she is in AA, but I am glad she is recovering from cocaine addiction. I have asked the same question you have. Sorry I don't have any answers. It seems a lot of people get stuck in AA because they are told there is nothing else by other members. " Staying with the pack " mentality, you could call it. I thought there was nothing on the other side of AA for a long time. It's almost like the belief in 1491 that the earth was flat. The earth is round and there is so much out there! <001901bed394$096cd320$d032a1d-@jkling> wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6158 > My names is and I am new to this list. Briefly, I would like to state > a few things about me as an introduction. I am 49, a college student, > ultrarunner, and disabled veteran. I have been diagnosed with PTSD from > Vietnam combat and other trauma that is based in my childhood from physical > and verbal abuse. I have an extensive history of substance abuse (25 > years). Currently, I help coordinate a self-management and recovery group > SMART here in Wyoming. > > About 2 years ago I relapsed while in a relationship and the law became > involved. I was placed on probation and I am required to attend 3 -12 step > meetings a week during the course of this probation. I attend 12 step > meetings nightly and one could say that I am " in the thick of it all " . All > the irrational, illogical, bullshit that is, and, at times, it is extremely > irritating for to sit and listen to this false and dangerous doctrine. I > have been thoroughly schooled and taught to change my behavior using the > cognitive behavioral approach to therapy (CBT) and this 12 step stuff > sharply conflicts with the rational teachings that are found in CBT. > > My purpose here is to seek new ideas, concepts, that relate to changing > self-defeating behaviors and sharing them with others. I believe, as well > as most here, that 12 step dogma only work for a few and for those that it > does not work (99%) it is dangrerous and could be fatal. > > After returning from the meeting last night and listening to 12 step > hardliners of the group preach and indoctrinate the youth present into 12 > step dogma I am telling myself there is another way. Knowing that what they > " preach " is dangerous for them if they believe and practice what is > " suggested " , I am seekings ways that I can help these young people change > addiction bahavior using the CBT approach which makes great sense to me. I > am however, and as you can imagine, up against a powerful vicous machine as > it is found in the 12 steps. I have a desire to help the young people use > their brain and rational thought processes. Does anyone have any > suggestions here. > > > Re: A & A-oops > > > > Hi Carol; > > > > I think it is important to recognize that folks here know their own > > mind. If I tell my wife, " Gee I've never seen that outfit before, it > > looks great on you. " And she replies " Oh this old rag, I picked it > > up at a garage sale and it's not my color, etc " Is she being modest > > or telling me I have terrible taste? I feel she's telling me I don't have > > a clue to what looks good. It's AA our sponsor tells us we don't > > know our own minds. If I apologize to someone, the appropriate > > responses are accept or reject. Unless of course the person is my > > teacher of protocol, then they might tell me that an apology for so > > small an infraction is unnecessary. Or even that my apology was > > improperly worded. > > > > Otherwise I would think the person would believe I knew why I was > > apologizing. I think especially on this list, folks should be able to > > speak their mind as they see it, make the decisions they see fit, > > without being told even indirectly that they don't know why they are > > doing something. That is what we left behind in AA, other folks > > telling us what to say and what to believe and that we didn't know > > when dinner time was unless they were serving wine. > > > > > > > > > > > Errr, it is okay to apologize. Sometimes it is right and considerate to > do > > > so and respects the other person and acknowledges your awareness that > you > > > have not acted your best. But,,, then again I could be wrong. > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > At 10:34 PM 7/19/99 EDT, you wrote: > > > > we should all be ranting more in my opinion. I like nothing more > than > > > >getting a good rant off. It proves to me my closed AA mind, and always > > > >apologetic self is slowly disapearing. I have no time anymore for self > > > >centred individuals who hangdog around just WAITING to accept apologies > from > > > >people who have spoken there piece strongly. As a matter of fact I > can't > > > >stand people who think they deserve an apology. This is a DISCUSSION > > > group. I > > > >am to tired to have to explain my every thought or statement. Thats > what we > > > >do here, discuss vent sometimes take stands. But we don't apologize. > She > > > only > > > >apologized out of habit, sort of like God BLessing when one sneezes. I > > > revoke > > > >her apology > > > >Jen > > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > >Want the power to purchase wisely? Productopia has the answers. > > > >http://clickhere./click/553 > > > > > > > > > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > Life is a candy store. > > > > > > Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at > > > http://www.bcrecovernet.org > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws. > > > http://clickhere./click/552 > > > > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. > > Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 > > at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 I know how you feel... I can't imagine going to a meeting and flat-out announcing what I've done personally (with the AA deprogramming site and all), but the closest thing I can imagine, is saying that I was in a bookstore and stumbled upon " The Real AA " or " AA Cure or Cult " , or that I was on the internet, and found alt.recovery-from-the-12 steps on Usenet, all while looking for recovery books/information (perfectly innocently). Saying something like: " What ever could possess these people to put out this information, and the scary part is that some of it sounded true! " Hopefully, that would get people intrigued enough to investigate on their own. I haven't done anything like that yet, but I already have a soiled reputation in the 12 step community, so it may not work in my case. The 12 step phenomenon is scary indeed. I sincerely hope the truth spreads and fast! Apple original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6158 > My names is and I am new to this list. Briefly, I would like to state > a few things about me as an introduction. I am 49, a college student, > ultrarunner, and disabled veteran. I have been diagnosed with PTSD from > Vietnam combat and other trauma that is based in my childhood from physical > and verbal abuse. I have an extensive history of substance abuse (25 > years). Currently, I help coordinate a self-management and recovery group > SMART here in Wyoming. > > About 2 years ago I relapsed while in a relationship and the law became > involved. I was placed on probation and I am required to attend 3 -12 step > meetings a week during the course of this probation. I attend 12 step > meetings nightly and one could say that I am " in the thick of it all " . All > the irrational, illogical, bullshit that is, and, at times, it is extremely > irritating for to sit and listen to this false and dangerous doctrine. I > have been thoroughly schooled and taught to change my behavior using the > cognitive behavioral approach to therapy (CBT) and this 12 step stuff > sharply conflicts with the rational teachings that are found in CBT. > > My purpose here is to seek new ideas, concepts, that relate to changing > self-defeating behaviors and sharing them with others. I believe, as well > as most here, that 12 step dogma only work for a few and for those that it > does not work (99%) it is dangrerous and could be fatal. > > After returning from the meeting last night and listening to 12 step > hardliners of the group preach and indoctrinate the youth present into 12 > step dogma I am telling myself there is another way. Knowing that what they > " preach " is dangerous for them if they believe and practice what is > " suggested " , I am seekings ways that I can help these young people change > addiction bahavior using the CBT approach which makes great sense to me. I > am however, and as you can imagine, up against a powerful vicous machine as > it is found in the 12 steps. I have a desire to help the young people use > their brain and rational thought processes. Does anyone have any > suggestions here. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 First of all , welcome. I am also a fairly new arrival here at step free, and if your experience proves to be anything like mine you're in for a lot of fun, validation, and viable information. I have been finding here, everything that AA promised me and failed to deliver. In addition I am free to believe what I please, and my autonomy is encouraged rather than denigrated. I am 42 having left AA after 10 years, and I fear that my post is beginning to sound like one of those repugnant AA commercials that finally sent me fleeing from their hallowed halls. However, it is here that I have really begun to experience the gratitude that was paid so much lip service in AA, where it was mainly used to make the person sharing appear more spiritual. I'm so glad to be free of all of those pious phonies. Klingbeil wrote: > > My names is and I am new to this list. Briefly, I would like to state > a few things about me as an introduction. I am 49, a college student, > ultrarunner, and disabled veteran. I have been diagnosed with PTSD from > Vietnam combat and other trauma that is based in my childhood from physical > and verbal abuse. I have an extensive history of substance abuse (25 > years). Currently, I help coordinate a self-management and recovery group > SMART here in Wyoming. > > About 2 years ago I relapsed while in a relationship and the law became > involved. I was placed on probation and I am required to attend 3 -12 step > meetings a week during the course of this probation. I attend 12 step > meetings nightly and one could say that I am " in the thick of it all " . All > the irrational, illogical, bullshit that is, and, at times, it is extremely > irritating for to sit and listen to this false and dangerous doctrine. I > have been thoroughly schooled and taught to change my behavior using the > cognitive behavioral approach to therapy (CBT) and this 12 step stuff > sharply conflicts with the rational teachings that are found in CBT. > > My purpose here is to seek new ideas, concepts, that relate to changing > self-defeating behaviors and sharing them with others. I believe, as well > as most here, that 12 step dogma only work for a few and for those that it > does not work (99%) it is dangrerous and could be fatal. > > After returning from the meeting last night and listening to 12 step > hardliners of the group preach and indoctrinate the youth present into 12 > step dogma I am telling myself there is another way. Knowing that what they > " preach " is dangerous for them if they believe and practice what is > " suggested " , I am seekings ways that I can help these young people change > addiction bahavior using the CBT approach which makes great sense to me. I > am however, and as you can imagine, up against a powerful vicous machine as > it is found in the 12 steps. I have a desire to help the young people use > their brain and rational thought processes. Does anyone have any > suggestions here. > > > Re: A & A-oops > > > > Hi Carol; > > > > I think it is important to recognize that folks here know their own > > mind. If I tell my wife, " Gee I've never seen that outfit before, it > > looks great on you. " And she replies " Oh this old rag, I picked it > > up at a garage sale and it's not my color, etc " Is she being modest > > or telling me I have terrible taste? I feel she's telling me I don't have > > a clue to what looks good. It's AA our sponsor tells us we don't > > know our own minds. If I apologize to someone, the appropriate > > responses are accept or reject. Unless of course the person is my > > teacher of protocol, then they might tell me that an apology for so > > small an infraction is unnecessary. Or even that my apology was > > improperly worded. > > > > Otherwise I would think the person would believe I knew why I was > > apologizing. I think especially on this list, folks should be able to > > speak their mind as they see it, make the decisions they see fit, > > without being told even indirectly that they don't know why they are > > doing something. That is what we left behind in AA, other folks > > telling us what to say and what to believe and that we didn't know > > when dinner time was unless they were serving wine. > > > > > > > > > > > Errr, it is okay to apologize. Sometimes it is right and considerate to > do > > > so and respects the other person and acknowledges your awareness that > you > > > have not acted your best. But,,, then again I could be wrong. > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > At 10:34 PM 7/19/99 EDT, you wrote: > > > > we should all be ranting more in my opinion. I like nothing more > than > > > >getting a good rant off. It proves to me my closed AA mind, and always > > > >apologetic self is slowly disapearing. I have no time anymore for self > > > >centred individuals who hangdog around just WAITING to accept apologies > from > > > >people who have spoken there piece strongly. As a matter of fact I > can't > > > >stand people who think they deserve an apology. This is a DISCUSSION > > > group. I > > > >am to tired to have to explain my every thought or statement. Thats > what we > > > >do here, discuss vent sometimes take stands. But we don't apologize. > She > > > only > > > >apologized out of habit, sort of like God BLessing when one sneezes. I > > > revoke > > > >her apology > > > >Jen > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >Want the power to purchase wisely? Productopia has the answers. > > > >http://clickhere./click/553 > > > > > > > > > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > Life is a candy store. > > > > > > Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at > > > http://www.bcrecovernet.org > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws. > > > http://clickhere./click/552 > > > > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. > > Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 > > at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > http://clickhere./click/475 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 First of all , welcome. I am also a fairly new arrival here at step free, and if your experience proves to be anything like mine you're in for a lot of fun, validation, and viable information. I have been finding here, everything that AA promised me and failed to deliver. In addition I am free to believe what I please, and my autonomy is encouraged rather than denigrated. I am 42 having left AA after 10 years, and I fear that my post is beginning to sound like one of those repugnant AA commercials that finally sent me fleeing from their hallowed halls. However, it is here that I have really begun to experience the gratitude that was paid so much lip service in AA, where it was mainly used to make the person sharing appear more spiritual. I'm so glad to be free of all of those pious phonies. Klingbeil wrote: > > My names is and I am new to this list. Briefly, I would like to state > a few things about me as an introduction. I am 49, a college student, > ultrarunner, and disabled veteran. I have been diagnosed with PTSD from > Vietnam combat and other trauma that is based in my childhood from physical > and verbal abuse. I have an extensive history of substance abuse (25 > years). Currently, I help coordinate a self-management and recovery group > SMART here in Wyoming. > > About 2 years ago I relapsed while in a relationship and the law became > involved. I was placed on probation and I am required to attend 3 -12 step > meetings a week during the course of this probation. I attend 12 step > meetings nightly and one could say that I am " in the thick of it all " . All > the irrational, illogical, bullshit that is, and, at times, it is extremely > irritating for to sit and listen to this false and dangerous doctrine. I > have been thoroughly schooled and taught to change my behavior using the > cognitive behavioral approach to therapy (CBT) and this 12 step stuff > sharply conflicts with the rational teachings that are found in CBT. > > My purpose here is to seek new ideas, concepts, that relate to changing > self-defeating behaviors and sharing them with others. I believe, as well > as most here, that 12 step dogma only work for a few and for those that it > does not work (99%) it is dangrerous and could be fatal. > > After returning from the meeting last night and listening to 12 step > hardliners of the group preach and indoctrinate the youth present into 12 > step dogma I am telling myself there is another way. Knowing that what they > " preach " is dangerous for them if they believe and practice what is > " suggested " , I am seekings ways that I can help these young people change > addiction bahavior using the CBT approach which makes great sense to me. I > am however, and as you can imagine, up against a powerful vicous machine as > it is found in the 12 steps. I have a desire to help the young people use > their brain and rational thought processes. Does anyone have any > suggestions here. > > > Re: A & A-oops > > > > Hi Carol; > > > > I think it is important to recognize that folks here know their own > > mind. If I tell my wife, " Gee I've never seen that outfit before, it > > looks great on you. " And she replies " Oh this old rag, I picked it > > up at a garage sale and it's not my color, etc " Is she being modest > > or telling me I have terrible taste? I feel she's telling me I don't have > > a clue to what looks good. It's AA our sponsor tells us we don't > > know our own minds. If I apologize to someone, the appropriate > > responses are accept or reject. Unless of course the person is my > > teacher of protocol, then they might tell me that an apology for so > > small an infraction is unnecessary. Or even that my apology was > > improperly worded. > > > > Otherwise I would think the person would believe I knew why I was > > apologizing. I think especially on this list, folks should be able to > > speak their mind as they see it, make the decisions they see fit, > > without being told even indirectly that they don't know why they are > > doing something. That is what we left behind in AA, other folks > > telling us what to say and what to believe and that we didn't know > > when dinner time was unless they were serving wine. > > > > > > > > > > > Errr, it is okay to apologize. Sometimes it is right and considerate to > do > > > so and respects the other person and acknowledges your awareness that > you > > > have not acted your best. But,,, then again I could be wrong. > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > At 10:34 PM 7/19/99 EDT, you wrote: > > > > we should all be ranting more in my opinion. I like nothing more > than > > > >getting a good rant off. It proves to me my closed AA mind, and always > > > >apologetic self is slowly disapearing. I have no time anymore for self > > > >centred individuals who hangdog around just WAITING to accept apologies > from > > > >people who have spoken there piece strongly. As a matter of fact I > can't > > > >stand people who think they deserve an apology. This is a DISCUSSION > > > group. I > > > >am to tired to have to explain my every thought or statement. Thats > what we > > > >do here, discuss vent sometimes take stands. But we don't apologize. > She > > > only > > > >apologized out of habit, sort of like God BLessing when one sneezes. I > > > revoke > > > >her apology > > > >Jen > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >Want the power to purchase wisely? Productopia has the answers. > > > >http://clickhere./click/553 > > > > > > > > > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > Life is a candy store. > > > > > > Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at > > > http://www.bcrecovernet.org > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws. > > > http://clickhere./click/552 > > > > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. > > Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 > > at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > http://clickhere./click/475 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 Oh I forgot to mention that if you want to help those young people in AA, you might refer them to Apple's AADeprogramming Website and let them take it from there. It's how I found my way here. Klingbeil wrote: > > My names is and I am new to this list. Briefly, I would like to state > a few things about me as an introduction. I am 49, a college student, > ultrarunner, and disabled veteran. I have been diagnosed with PTSD from > Vietnam combat and other trauma that is based in my childhood from physical > and verbal abuse. I have an extensive history of substance abuse (25 > years). Currently, I help coordinate a self-management and recovery group > SMART here in Wyoming. > > About 2 years ago I relapsed while in a relationship and the law became > involved. I was placed on probation and I am required to attend 3 -12 step > meetings a week during the course of this probation. I attend 12 step > meetings nightly and one could say that I am " in the thick of it all " . All > the irrational, illogical, bullshit that is, and, at times, it is extremely > irritating for to sit and listen to this false and dangerous doctrine. I > have been thoroughly schooled and taught to change my behavior using the > cognitive behavioral approach to therapy (CBT) and this 12 step stuff > sharply conflicts with the rational teachings that are found in CBT. > > My purpose here is to seek new ideas, concepts, that relate to changing > self-defeating behaviors and sharing them with others. I believe, as well > as most here, that 12 step dogma only work for a few and for those that it > does not work (99%) it is dangrerous and could be fatal. > > After returning from the meeting last night and listening to 12 step > hardliners of the group preach and indoctrinate the youth present into 12 > step dogma I am telling myself there is another way. Knowing that what they > " preach " is dangerous for them if they believe and practice what is > " suggested " , I am seekings ways that I can help these young people change > addiction bahavior using the CBT approach which makes great sense to me. I > am however, and as you can imagine, up against a powerful vicous machine as > it is found in the 12 steps. I have a desire to help the young people use > their brain and rational thought processes. Does anyone have any > suggestions here. > > > Re: A & A-oops > > > > Hi Carol; > > > > I think it is important to recognize that folks here know their own > > mind. If I tell my wife, " Gee I've never seen that outfit before, it > > looks great on you. " And she replies " Oh this old rag, I picked it > > up at a garage sale and it's not my color, etc " Is she being modest > > or telling me I have terrible taste? I feel she's telling me I don't have > > a clue to what looks good. It's AA our sponsor tells us we don't > > know our own minds. If I apologize to someone, the appropriate > > responses are accept or reject. Unless of course the person is my > > teacher of protocol, then they might tell me that an apology for so > > small an infraction is unnecessary. Or even that my apology was > > improperly worded. > > > > Otherwise I would think the person would believe I knew why I was > > apologizing. I think especially on this list, folks should be able to > > speak their mind as they see it, make the decisions they see fit, > > without being told even indirectly that they don't know why they are > > doing something. That is what we left behind in AA, other folks > > telling us what to say and what to believe and that we didn't know > > when dinner time was unless they were serving wine. > > > > > > > > > > > Errr, it is okay to apologize. Sometimes it is right and considerate to > do > > > so and respects the other person and acknowledges your awareness that > you > > > have not acted your best. But,,, then again I could be wrong. > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > At 10:34 PM 7/19/99 EDT, you wrote: > > > > we should all be ranting more in my opinion. I like nothing more > than > > > >getting a good rant off. It proves to me my closed AA mind, and always > > > >apologetic self is slowly disapearing. I have no time anymore for self > > > >centred individuals who hangdog around just WAITING to accept apologies > from > > > >people who have spoken there piece strongly. As a matter of fact I > can't > > > >stand people who think they deserve an apology. This is a DISCUSSION > > > group. I > > > >am to tired to have to explain my every thought or statement. Thats > what we > > > >do here, discuss vent sometimes take stands. But we don't apologize. > She > > > only > > > >apologized out of habit, sort of like God BLessing when one sneezes. I > > > revoke > > > >her apology > > > >Jen > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >Want the power to purchase wisely? Productopia has the answers. > > > >http://clickhere./click/553 > > > > > > > > > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > Life is a candy store. > > > > > > Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at > > > http://www.bcrecovernet.org > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws. > > > http://clickhere./click/552 > > > > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. > > Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 > > at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > http://clickhere./click/475 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 Hi Jen; Point taken. Also I got a bit carried away there. All that sarcasm on my part was unneccessary, and I won't attack like that again. Mea culpa ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 Hi, You might take a look at a book called " The Thirteenth Step " which was written for people who liked aspects or all of AA and are ready to move beyond and get back to the rest of humanity. Carol At 09:36 AM 7/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >Welcome, , > >I have a daughter in AA-been there about the time I walked away three >years ago. She's 20. I have pretty much let her go her way in AA and >said nothing, because there isnt anything else that she is exposed to. >ALL of her friends are in AA-I know you are familiar with the >stereotype...If I had something like SMART or some basic CBT help >group-I would steer her there in a heartbeat. > >I don't take kindly to having " religion " forced on me-once I realized >what I was dealing with-a wolf in sheep's clothing. It took me 15 >years to come to the realization that some of AA's teachings and >philosophy was contradictory and convoluted sense of reality. > >I do not like the fact that she is in AA, but I am glad she is >recovering from cocaine addiction. > >I have asked the same question you have. Sorry I don't have any >answers. It seems a lot of people get stuck in AA because they are >told there is nothing else by other members. " Staying with the pack " >mentality, you could call it. I thought there was nothing on the other >side of AA for a long time. It's almost like the belief in 1491 that >the earth was flat. The earth is round and there is so much out there! > > > > > ><001901bed394$096cd320$d032a1d-@jkling> wrote: >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6158 >> My names is and I am new to this list. Briefly, I would like >to state >> a few things about me as an introduction. I am 49, a college >student, >> ultrarunner, and disabled veteran. I have been diagnosed with PTSD >from >> Vietnam combat and other trauma that is based in my childhood from >physical >> and verbal abuse. I have an extensive history of substance abuse (25 >> years). Currently, I help coordinate a self-management and >recovery group >> SMART here in Wyoming. >> >> About 2 years ago I relapsed while in a relationship and the law >became >> involved. I was placed on probation and I am required to attend 3 >-12 step >> meetings a week during the course of this probation. I attend 12 step >> meetings nightly and one could say that I am " in the thick of it >all " . All >> the irrational, illogical, bullshit that is, and, at times, it is >extremely >> irritating for to sit and listen to this false and dangerous >doctrine. I >> have been thoroughly schooled and taught to change my behavior using >the >> cognitive behavioral approach to therapy (CBT) and this 12 step stuff >> sharply conflicts with the rational teachings that are found in CBT. >> >> My purpose here is to seek new ideas, concepts, that relate to >changing >> self-defeating behaviors and sharing them with others. I believe, as >well >> as most here, that 12 step dogma only work for a few and for those >that it >> does not work (99%) it is dangrerous and could be fatal. >> >> After returning from the meeting last night and listening to 12 step >> hardliners of the group preach and indoctrinate the youth present >into 12 >> step dogma I am telling myself there is another way. Knowing that >what they >> " preach " is dangerous for them if they believe and practice what is >> " suggested " , I am seekings ways that I can help these young people >change >> addiction bahavior using the CBT approach which makes great sense to >me. I >> am however, and as you can imagine, up against a powerful vicous >machine as >> it is found in the 12 steps. I have a desire to help the young >people use >> their brain and rational thought processes. Does anyone have any >> suggestions here. >> >> >> Re: A & A-oops >> > >> > Hi Carol; >> > >> > I think it is important to recognize that folks here know their own >> > mind. If I tell my wife, " Gee I've never seen that outfit before, >it >> > looks great on you. " And she replies " Oh this old rag, I picked it >> > up at a garage sale and it's not my color, etc " Is she being modest >> > or telling me I have terrible taste? I feel she's telling me I >don't have >> > a clue to what looks good. It's AA our sponsor tells us we don't >> > know our own minds. If I apologize to someone, the appropriate >> > responses are accept or reject. Unless of course the person is my >> > teacher of protocol, then they might tell me that an apology for so >> > small an infraction is unnecessary. Or even that my apology was >> > improperly worded. >> > >> > Otherwise I would think the person would believe I knew why I was >> > apologizing. I think especially on this list, folks should be able >to >> > speak their mind as they see it, make the decisions they see fit, >> > without being told even indirectly that they don't know why they are >> > doing something. That is what we left behind in AA, other folks >> > telling us what to say and what to believe and that we didn't know >> > when dinner time was unless they were serving wine. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Errr, it is okay to apologize. Sometimes it is right and >considerate to >> do >> > > so and respects the other person and acknowledges your awareness >that >> you >> > > have not acted your best. But,,, then again I could be wrong. >> > > Carol >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > At 10:34 PM 7/19/99 EDT, you wrote: >> > > > we should all be ranting more in my opinion. I like >nothing more >> than >> > > >getting a good rant off. It proves to me my closed AA mind, and >always >> > > >apologetic self is slowly disapearing. I have no time anymore >for self >> > > >centred individuals who hangdog around just WAITING to accept >apologies >> from >> > > >people who have spoken there piece strongly. As a matter of fact >I >> can't >> > > >stand people who think they deserve an apology. This is a >DISCUSSION >> > > group. I >> > > >am to tired to have to explain my every thought or statement. >Thats >> what we >> > > >do here, discuss vent sometimes take stands. But we don't >apologize. >> She >> > > only >> > > >apologized out of habit, sort of like God BLessing when one >sneezes. I >> > > revoke >> > > >her apology >> > > >Jen >> > > > >> > > >> >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- >> > > >Want the power to purchase wisely? Productopia has the answers. >> > > >http://clickhere./click/553 >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> > > > - Simplifying group communications >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > --- >> > > Life is a candy store. >> > > >> > > Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at >> > > http://www.bcrecovernet.org >> > > >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- >------- >> > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws. >> > > http://clickhere./click/552 >> > > >> > > >> > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> > > - Simplifying group communications >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- >> > GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. >> > Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 >> > at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 >> > >> > >> > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> > - Simplifying group communications >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. >Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 >at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at http://www.bcrecovernet.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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