Re: Friends that are friends of AA

[Guest guest]

,

OK! We'll have a drink cyberly. I'm waiting till the divorce is final.

I'm afraid if my AA husband got wind I had one drink, he'd bring up my AA

history and how I'm a worthless drunk now, etc, etc, and somehow get

everything he wants.

Saw in a recent post of yours you enjoy gardening. I developed a love for

gardening during my marriage. Worked hard on getting a plain bit of

property to one that blossoms. I guess it's gone to weeds now. But now

since I'm at my dad's house and caring for that, I have a whole 1/2 acre of

flat lawn to garden. My mom died in 1991 and Dad didn't do anything in the

way of gardening after she was gone. I have a lot of work to do in that

regard. Enjoying it to the max!

What are moss roses?

Jan

Re: Friends that are friends of AA

>>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:02:00 -0400

>>

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[Guest guest]

Jen,

I can relate to what you're saying.

<<<I have a habit of taking responsibilty for what everyone thinks and

what everyone does>>

I used to live that way too. Made me a prime candidate for the funny

farm. Somehow I managed to stop that shit. It's crazy. Are people

responsible for what I say and think? No! I say & think what I want,

and it's usually based on my feelings/agenda/goals/exerience, and not

the actions/words of others. So how the hell can I be responsible for

others.

Anyway, you know I posted your story. The bit about puking crakers.

May I ask, was that a response to having been dumped by the 2yr Sober

Man? I used to be the same way. If a guy picked someone over me, I

would lose weight immediately. Must be cause I'm fat. (I've never been

fat!) Thought I could control him or the relationship by looking

better. That's that BS driven into us by the fashion industry. Cosmo

kills. It really does. I stopped that behavior too. One day I just came

to a realization that it wasn't working and poof, it just stopped.

Apple

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5942

> I am just so sick of living in guilt and in hiding I won't do it

anymore. I

> think it's a simple as if I am not hurting anyone else or causing

anyone

> else to suffer from my behavior, then who cares what I do? I have

ahabit of

> taking responsibilty for what everyone thinks and what everyone does.

Its a

> horrible way to live!!!

> Jen

>

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[Guest guest]

Jen,

I can relate to what you're saying.

<<<I have a habit of taking responsibilty for what everyone thinks and

what everyone does>>

I used to live that way too. Made me a prime candidate for the funny

farm. Somehow I managed to stop that shit. It's crazy. Are people

responsible for what I say and think? No! I say & think what I want,

and it's usually based on my feelings/agenda/goals/exerience, and not

the actions/words of others. So how the hell can I be responsible for

others.

Anyway, you know I posted your story. The bit about puking crakers.

May I ask, was that a response to having been dumped by the 2yr Sober

Man? I used to be the same way. If a guy picked someone over me, I

would lose weight immediately. Must be cause I'm fat. (I've never been

fat!) Thought I could control him or the relationship by looking

better. That's that BS driven into us by the fashion industry. Cosmo

kills. It really does. I stopped that behavior too. One day I just came

to a realization that it wasn't working and poof, it just stopped.

Apple

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5942

> I am just so sick of living in guilt and in hiding I won't do it

anymore. I

> think it's a simple as if I am not hurting anyone else or causing

anyone

> else to suffer from my behavior, then who cares what I do? I have

ahabit of

> taking responsibilty for what everyone thinks and what everyone does.

Its a

> horrible way to live!!!

> Jen

>

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[Guest guest]

Hey Apple;

I had to make amends to some folks for drinking their Avon

Collection. Told ya I was a low bottom drunk. Anyway the

response was " Forget it, but how did you drink that stuff? " I truly

don't recall my answer. I can think of a bunch of responses today,

but don't recall my answer that day. These folks were friends.

Rose and I had given them a color TV the Christmas before, a used

one and I was installing a new picture tube in it when this

happened. You can see why the insanity idea of AA would appeal

to me. My behavior did seem insane. I didn't yet know about the

PTSD, I just knew when I had an attack, alcohol would take care of

it. Drugs wouldn't. A girlfriend had percadan and that woudn't

phase the pain other than by putting me to sleep.

We don't see them anymore, not as a result of that incident, but

they are AA/Alanon folks and pretty sick. It's depressing to see

and listen to them now. We did go visit them a while after being

out of AA/Alanon ourselves. As we left Rose asked " Was I ever

that Bad? " I was tempted to say no, but instead said " You thought

she was a paragon of wellness and she hasn't changed, but no you

never were like that "

It was a pretty terrible two hours. I know I was shaken by it,

because I had thought she was OK also. AA/Alanon's group

pressure bypasses my critical thinking by telling me I'm warped in

every thought relating to alcohol. The Thing that bothers me is that

I mostly believed it.

After about three maybe four months in therapy Dr Laing asked me

if I felt powerless over alcohol? I said No, I just don't drink it. All

she said was " Exactly "

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[Guest guest]

Hey Apple;

I had to make amends to some folks for drinking their Avon

Collection. Told ya I was a low bottom drunk. Anyway the

response was " Forget it, but how did you drink that stuff? " I truly

don't recall my answer. I can think of a bunch of responses today,

but don't recall my answer that day. These folks were friends.

Rose and I had given them a color TV the Christmas before, a used

one and I was installing a new picture tube in it when this

happened. You can see why the insanity idea of AA would appeal

to me. My behavior did seem insane. I didn't yet know about the

PTSD, I just knew when I had an attack, alcohol would take care of

it. Drugs wouldn't. A girlfriend had percadan and that woudn't

phase the pain other than by putting me to sleep.

We don't see them anymore, not as a result of that incident, but

they are AA/Alanon folks and pretty sick. It's depressing to see

and listen to them now. We did go visit them a while after being

out of AA/Alanon ourselves. As we left Rose asked " Was I ever

that Bad? " I was tempted to say no, but instead said " You thought

she was a paragon of wellness and she hasn't changed, but no you

never were like that "

It was a pretty terrible two hours. I know I was shaken by it,

because I had thought she was OK also. AA/Alanon's group

pressure bypasses my critical thinking by telling me I'm warped in

every thought relating to alcohol. The Thing that bothers me is that

I mostly believed it.

After about three maybe four months in therapy Dr Laing asked me

if I felt powerless over alcohol? I said No, I just don't drink it. All

she said was " Exactly "

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[Guest guest]

Hi Jan;

Portulaca, is the genus name for Moss Rose. The wild original is a

weed called Portulaca Vulgaris. It has small teardropped shape

leaves that are thick like a cactus. It's a creeper. The leaves of

the wild weed are used for salad greens, but the hybrids that are

grown for flowers are inedible. If you're in the midwest and don't

use a herbicide you probably have some of the wild ones. On the

wild ones, flowers are tiny about 3/8 " in diameter, open early

morning for a couple of hours then close up and disappear, usually

white or bright yellow. The hybrids have good sized flowers in all

colors but blue.

I cannot remember the common name for the wild plant. It's a weed

name, but I'm at a loss. I've eaten them too, raw they're about like

spinach. If you like spinach salad, you'll like the wild portulaca. I

prefer spinach over lettuce by a factor of ten. It's just hard to get

since I don't garden anymore.

I've planted a lot of asparagus, but never lived in one place long

enough to harvest any. Harvested lots of Ditch asparagus though.

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[Guest guest]

Hi Jan;

Portulaca, is the genus name for Moss Rose. The wild original is a

weed called Portulaca Vulgaris. It has small teardropped shape

leaves that are thick like a cactus. It's a creeper. The leaves of

the wild weed are used for salad greens, but the hybrids that are

grown for flowers are inedible. If you're in the midwest and don't

use a herbicide you probably have some of the wild ones. On the

wild ones, flowers are tiny about 3/8 " in diameter, open early

morning for a couple of hours then close up and disappear, usually

white or bright yellow. The hybrids have good sized flowers in all

colors but blue.

I cannot remember the common name for the wild plant. It's a weed

name, but I'm at a loss. I've eaten them too, raw they're about like

spinach. If you like spinach salad, you'll like the wild portulaca. I

prefer spinach over lettuce by a factor of ten. It's just hard to get

since I don't garden anymore.

I've planted a lot of asparagus, but never lived in one place long

enough to harvest any. Harvested lots of Ditch asparagus though.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Oh Lord , their Avon Collection? You musta had, ahem... very sexy

breath afterwards... The worst I ever did was abuse Nyquil. Avon,

that's pretty creative though. I wonder if Chanel No. 5 is a better

drunk.... or maybe CK One...

Your Dr. Laing sounds like a treasure. I'm so glad there are

therapists like her out there!

Apple

> Hey Apple;

>

> I had to make amends to some folks for drinking their Avon

> Collection. Told ya I was a low bottom drunk. Anyway the

> response was " Forget it, but how did you drink that stuff? " I truly

> don't recall my answer. I can think of a bunch of responses today,

> but don't recall my answer that day. These folks were friends.

> Rose and I had given them a color TV the Christmas before, a used

> one and I was installing a new picture tube in it when this

> happened. You can see why the insanity idea of AA would appeal

> to me. My behavior did seem insane. I didn't yet know about the

> PTSD, I just knew when I had an attack, alcohol would take care of

> it. Drugs wouldn't. A girlfriend had percadan and that woudn't

> phase the pain other than by putting me to sleep.

>

> We don't see them anymore, not as a result of that incident, but

> they are AA/Alanon folks and pretty sick. It's depressing to see

> and listen to them now. We did go visit them a while after being

> out of AA/Alanon ourselves. As we left Rose asked " Was I ever

> that Bad? " I was tempted to say no, but instead said " You thought

> she was a paragon of wellness and she hasn't changed, but no you

> never were like that "

>

> It was a pretty terrible two hours. I know I was shaken by it,

> because I had thought she was OK also. AA/Alanon's group

> pressure bypasses my critical thinking by telling me I'm warped in

> every thought relating to alcohol. The Thing that bothers me is that

> I mostly believed it.

>

> After about three maybe four months in therapy Dr Laing asked me

> if I felt powerless over alcohol? I said No, I just don't drink it.

All

> she said was " Exactly "

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Oh Lord , their Avon Collection? You musta had, ahem... very sexy

breath afterwards... The worst I ever did was abuse Nyquil. Avon,

that's pretty creative though. I wonder if Chanel No. 5 is a better

drunk.... or maybe CK One...

Your Dr. Laing sounds like a treasure. I'm so glad there are

therapists like her out there!

Apple

> Hey Apple;

>

> I had to make amends to some folks for drinking their Avon

> Collection. Told ya I was a low bottom drunk. Anyway the

> response was " Forget it, but how did you drink that stuff? " I truly

> don't recall my answer. I can think of a bunch of responses today,

> but don't recall my answer that day. These folks were friends.

> Rose and I had given them a color TV the Christmas before, a used

> one and I was installing a new picture tube in it when this

> happened. You can see why the insanity idea of AA would appeal

> to me. My behavior did seem insane. I didn't yet know about the

> PTSD, I just knew when I had an attack, alcohol would take care of

> it. Drugs wouldn't. A girlfriend had percadan and that woudn't

> phase the pain other than by putting me to sleep.

>

> We don't see them anymore, not as a result of that incident, but

> they are AA/Alanon folks and pretty sick. It's depressing to see

> and listen to them now. We did go visit them a while after being

> out of AA/Alanon ourselves. As we left Rose asked " Was I ever

> that Bad? " I was tempted to say no, but instead said " You thought

> she was a paragon of wellness and she hasn't changed, but no you

> never were like that "

>

> It was a pretty terrible two hours. I know I was shaken by it,

> because I had thought she was OK also. AA/Alanon's group

> pressure bypasses my critical thinking by telling me I'm warped in

> every thought relating to alcohol. The Thing that bothers me is that

> I mostly believed it.

>

> After about three maybe four months in therapy Dr Laing asked me

> if I felt powerless over alcohol? I said No, I just don't drink it.

All

> she said was " Exactly "

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

I think it is true that only those who have had trouble moderating want to

moderate. Others never think of it and just do it. I don't think of

drinking because I don't have any desire, de-sire. It is a non-issue.

Carol

At 04:13 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote:

>Jen;

>Your post was a real comfort to me. I still have too much guilt to venture

>a test on myself and have a glass of wine or an aperetif...sure would be

>nice. But maybe somewhere down the road I will allow myself the pleasure.

>Part of it is that I don't trust myself right now to be moderate.

>

>I think one of the reasons this website is so controversial is that it does

>not " judge " as people in AA do. I am certain no one here is doing what was

>done at tables. If you slipped, you automatically became " less than " .

>

>I " got sober " in 1982...I have felt that " sobriety " WAS my identity for al

>these years. Now I have been in the process of redfining myself. Dealing

>with my core issue made me realize why I drank-to kill guilt, painful

>memories and hide. I don't hide anymore, I live with the memories and the

>guilt...well, that's been a constant that I'm still working on.

>

>I admire your courage to be yourself.

>

>Love,

>

>

>

>>From: blackeyedsuzy@...

>>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>>Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

>>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:14:33 -0700

>>

>> Dear Jen

>>Thanks for your post. I have not been here very long and I was starting

>>to think I didn't belong. Most people who post here at some point

>>refer to being abstainant. I was feeling kind of like an outcast and

>>thought about not coming back here. What brought me back was my

>>incredible dislike of AA.

>>Anyway, I was sober for eighteen years, my last AA meeting was in 1990

>>or 91. I too started doing some research and decided drinking too much

>>is a behavioural problem and not a disease. So I now have a glass of

>>wine from time to time. I never have more than one and I never drink

>>more than three days in a week. I think you have to set limits before

>>you return to drinking. Also the rule in our house is never drink and

>>drive no matter what. If I go out for dinner and have a glass of wine

>>then someone else has to be driving, if I drive then I forgo the glass

>>of wine. Anyway after so many years of not drinking one glass of wine

>>pretty much makes me loopy.

>>The only thing I worry about is all those years I was brain washed by

>>AA meetings, that if I drink again I will turn into drunk. I know

>>intellectually that that is not true, but I do worry about it becoming

>>a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I am on guard. I know after my first

>>glass of

>> wine I felt guilty because I enjoyed it so much and I enjoyed how it

>>made me feel. Then I realized everyone who drinks wine feels this way

>>or they wouldn't drink it. In other words I am not an alcoholic

>>because I enjoy wine.

>>My husband was in AA too and he too occassionally has a glass of wine.

>>I think Stanton Peele's web site may be a good place for you to visit

>>if you haven't already and also moderation management has a book out to

>>help people set guidlines, I haven't bought it but intend to. I think

>>that there are probably a lot of people who leave AA and go back to

>>drinking normally but they don't come back to AA to tell us about it,

>>we just heard from the ones who couldn't hack it. But I sure would

>>like to find all those people who left AA and now drink normally it

>>would be great support.

>>Don't worry about what that pyschiatrist said, I don't have a very high

>>opinion of their profession, but that would be another topic.

>>Anyway thanks, you have helped me. Suzy

>> wrote:

>>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5875

>> > Ok I am about to share something with all of you and I am eager for

>>the

>> > feedback. This may long and drawn out, so if you get bored,feel free

>>to

>> > change the channel.

>> > I met my husband at a " sober club " about 10 years ago. I was sober

>>about a

>> > year, and he had about 2 years in AA time. We moved in together about

>>300

>> > miles away from our families and decided to drink again. It took

>>about 6

>> > months for everything to fall apart. We would drink at least a case

>>of beer

>> > and then go out to the bars on a nightly basis. Then we moved down

>>South and

>> > my husband started smoking crack. He was always sorry and shamed and

>> > remorseful when he came home a week later. Then he would take my

>>paycheck and

>> > do it all over again.This lasted for about three years until he went

>>back to

>> > AA. I on the other hand had quit doing any drinking, because of

>>obvious

>> > reasons. I just new there was no way that I was gonna go back into

>>those

>> > rooms and tell anyone any thing that happened to me. Plus for some

>>reason, I

>> > just did not feel like drinking.

>> > This time around back in AA my husband did not seem right. He was

>>treated for

>> > severe depression, was always screaming and picking fights with

>>people. He

>> > would sit in the back of meetings talking and laughing at people. So

>>he had

>> > no friends there, and no one to talk to on the outside. Then one day

>>before

>> > Memorial Day Weekend I came across a copy of The Real AA at Borders.

>>I read

>> > it myself then read some of it to him. Then he read it. This was the

>>first

>> > time, even after his nephew died on the operating table that I saw my

>>husband

>> > cry. Have you ever seen a man cry from relief before? He realized

>>that he did

>> > not have to smoke crack if he had two or five beers.

>> > So thats when I started using him as my own science project. GASP!!!

>>I don't

>> > drink because I dont feel like it. We went to a barbeque on Mem. Day

>>and

>> > guess what?? He had a few beers. He is still alive. During the

>>Basketball

>> > Finals He drank a few at home. He still had a job the next day. Over

>>the

>> > weekend he flew to Georgia to visit Mom and Dad. Had cocktails by the

>>pool,

>> > and ya know what? He did not disapear and smoke crack for a week. So

>> > according to my research my husband suffers from alot of things, but

>> > Alcoholism as THEY define it is not one of them. His psyciatrist will

>>not see

>> > him anymore and says that its only a matter of time before his

>>troubles

>> > resume, that his track record only proves that. Upon further research

>>on his

>> > background I found out he started as a detox caseworker, before

>>becoming an

>> > MD. That answers that question. He has yet to get drunk. He tells me

>>he does

>> > not want to get drunk, he just wants to have a few. Now he knows that

>>the

>> > only way he can get drunk is if he wants to. Not because the Liquor

>>Genie has

>> > put a curse on him.

>> > Am I wrong for using my husband as a subject???

>> > Jen

>> >

>>

>>

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Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

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[Guest guest]

I think it is true that only those who have had trouble moderating want to

moderate. Others never think of it and just do it. I don't think of

drinking because I don't have any desire, de-sire. It is a non-issue.

Carol

At 04:13 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote:

>Jen;

>Your post was a real comfort to me. I still have too much guilt to venture

>a test on myself and have a glass of wine or an aperetif...sure would be

>nice. But maybe somewhere down the road I will allow myself the pleasure.

>Part of it is that I don't trust myself right now to be moderate.

>

>I think one of the reasons this website is so controversial is that it does

>not " judge " as people in AA do. I am certain no one here is doing what was

>done at tables. If you slipped, you automatically became " less than " .

>

>I " got sober " in 1982...I have felt that " sobriety " WAS my identity for al

>these years. Now I have been in the process of redfining myself. Dealing

>with my core issue made me realize why I drank-to kill guilt, painful

>memories and hide. I don't hide anymore, I live with the memories and the

>guilt...well, that's been a constant that I'm still working on.

>

>I admire your courage to be yourself.

>

>Love,

>

>

>

>>From: blackeyedsuzy@...

>>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>>Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

>>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:14:33 -0700

>>

>> Dear Jen

>>Thanks for your post. I have not been here very long and I was starting

>>to think I didn't belong. Most people who post here at some point

>>refer to being abstainant. I was feeling kind of like an outcast and

>>thought about not coming back here. What brought me back was my

>>incredible dislike of AA.

>>Anyway, I was sober for eighteen years, my last AA meeting was in 1990

>>or 91. I too started doing some research and decided drinking too much

>>is a behavioural problem and not a disease. So I now have a glass of

>>wine from time to time. I never have more than one and I never drink

>>more than three days in a week. I think you have to set limits before

>>you return to drinking. Also the rule in our house is never drink and

>>drive no matter what. If I go out for dinner and have a glass of wine

>>then someone else has to be driving, if I drive then I forgo the glass

>>of wine. Anyway after so many years of not drinking one glass of wine

>>pretty much makes me loopy.

>>The only thing I worry about is all those years I was brain washed by

>>AA meetings, that if I drink again I will turn into drunk. I know

>>intellectually that that is not true, but I do worry about it becoming

>>a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I am on guard. I know after my first

>>glass of

>> wine I felt guilty because I enjoyed it so much and I enjoyed how it

>>made me feel. Then I realized everyone who drinks wine feels this way

>>or they wouldn't drink it. In other words I am not an alcoholic

>>because I enjoy wine.

>>My husband was in AA too and he too occassionally has a glass of wine.

>>I think Stanton Peele's web site may be a good place for you to visit

>>if you haven't already and also moderation management has a book out to

>>help people set guidlines, I haven't bought it but intend to. I think

>>that there are probably a lot of people who leave AA and go back to

>>drinking normally but they don't come back to AA to tell us about it,

>>we just heard from the ones who couldn't hack it. But I sure would

>>like to find all those people who left AA and now drink normally it

>>would be great support.

>>Don't worry about what that pyschiatrist said, I don't have a very high

>>opinion of their profession, but that would be another topic.

>>Anyway thanks, you have helped me. Suzy

>> wrote:

>>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5875

>> > Ok I am about to share something with all of you and I am eager for

>>the

>> > feedback. This may long and drawn out, so if you get bored,feel free

>>to

>> > change the channel.

>> > I met my husband at a " sober club " about 10 years ago. I was sober

>>about a

>> > year, and he had about 2 years in AA time. We moved in together about

>>300

>> > miles away from our families and decided to drink again. It took

>>about 6

>> > months for everything to fall apart. We would drink at least a case

>>of beer

>> > and then go out to the bars on a nightly basis. Then we moved down

>>South and

>> > my husband started smoking crack. He was always sorry and shamed and

>> > remorseful when he came home a week later. Then he would take my

>>paycheck and

>> > do it all over again.This lasted for about three years until he went

>>back to

>> > AA. I on the other hand had quit doing any drinking, because of

>>obvious

>> > reasons. I just new there was no way that I was gonna go back into

>>those

>> > rooms and tell anyone any thing that happened to me. Plus for some

>>reason, I

>> > just did not feel like drinking.

>> > This time around back in AA my husband did not seem right. He was

>>treated for

>> > severe depression, was always screaming and picking fights with

>>people. He

>> > would sit in the back of meetings talking and laughing at people. So

>>he had

>> > no friends there, and no one to talk to on the outside. Then one day

>>before

>> > Memorial Day Weekend I came across a copy of The Real AA at Borders.

>>I read

>> > it myself then read some of it to him. Then he read it. This was the

>>first

>> > time, even after his nephew died on the operating table that I saw my

>>husband

>> > cry. Have you ever seen a man cry from relief before? He realized

>>that he did

>> > not have to smoke crack if he had two or five beers.

>> > So thats when I started using him as my own science project. GASP!!!

>>I don't

>> > drink because I dont feel like it. We went to a barbeque on Mem. Day

>>and

>> > guess what?? He had a few beers. He is still alive. During the

>>Basketball

>> > Finals He drank a few at home. He still had a job the next day. Over

>>the

>> > weekend he flew to Georgia to visit Mom and Dad. Had cocktails by the

>>pool,

>> > and ya know what? He did not disapear and smoke crack for a week. So

>> > according to my research my husband suffers from alot of things, but

>> > Alcoholism as THEY define it is not one of them. His psyciatrist will

>>not see

>> > him anymore and says that its only a matter of time before his

>>troubles

>> > resume, that his track record only proves that. Upon further research

>>on his

>> > background I found out he started as a detox caseworker, before

>>becoming an

>> > MD. That answers that question. He has yet to get drunk. He tells me

>>he does

>> > not want to get drunk, he just wants to have a few. Now he knows that

>>the

>> > only way he can get drunk is if he wants to. Not because the Liquor

>>Genie has

>> > put a curse on him.

>> > Am I wrong for using my husband as a subject???

>> > Jen

>> >

>>

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>>FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

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[Guest guest]

I think it is true that only those who have had trouble moderating want to

moderate. Others never think of it and just do it. I don't think of

drinking because I don't have any desire, de-sire. It is a non-issue.

Carol

At 04:13 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote:

>Jen;

>Your post was a real comfort to me. I still have too much guilt to venture

>a test on myself and have a glass of wine or an aperetif...sure would be

>nice. But maybe somewhere down the road I will allow myself the pleasure.

>Part of it is that I don't trust myself right now to be moderate.

>

>I think one of the reasons this website is so controversial is that it does

>not " judge " as people in AA do. I am certain no one here is doing what was

>done at tables. If you slipped, you automatically became " less than " .

>

>I " got sober " in 1982...I have felt that " sobriety " WAS my identity for al

>these years. Now I have been in the process of redfining myself. Dealing

>with my core issue made me realize why I drank-to kill guilt, painful

>memories and hide. I don't hide anymore, I live with the memories and the

>guilt...well, that's been a constant that I'm still working on.

>

>I admire your courage to be yourself.

>

>Love,

>

>

>

>>From: blackeyedsuzy@...

>>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>>Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

>>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:14:33 -0700

>>

>> Dear Jen

>>Thanks for your post. I have not been here very long and I was starting

>>to think I didn't belong. Most people who post here at some point

>>refer to being abstainant. I was feeling kind of like an outcast and

>>thought about not coming back here. What brought me back was my

>>incredible dislike of AA.

>>Anyway, I was sober for eighteen years, my last AA meeting was in 1990

>>or 91. I too started doing some research and decided drinking too much

>>is a behavioural problem and not a disease. So I now have a glass of

>>wine from time to time. I never have more than one and I never drink

>>more than three days in a week. I think you have to set limits before

>>you return to drinking. Also the rule in our house is never drink and

>>drive no matter what. If I go out for dinner and have a glass of wine

>>then someone else has to be driving, if I drive then I forgo the glass

>>of wine. Anyway after so many years of not drinking one glass of wine

>>pretty much makes me loopy.

>>The only thing I worry about is all those years I was brain washed by

>>AA meetings, that if I drink again I will turn into drunk. I know

>>intellectually that that is not true, but I do worry about it becoming

>>a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I am on guard. I know after my first

>>glass of

>> wine I felt guilty because I enjoyed it so much and I enjoyed how it

>>made me feel. Then I realized everyone who drinks wine feels this way

>>or they wouldn't drink it. In other words I am not an alcoholic

>>because I enjoy wine.

>>My husband was in AA too and he too occassionally has a glass of wine.

>>I think Stanton Peele's web site may be a good place for you to visit

>>if you haven't already and also moderation management has a book out to

>>help people set guidlines, I haven't bought it but intend to. I think

>>that there are probably a lot of people who leave AA and go back to

>>drinking normally but they don't come back to AA to tell us about it,

>>we just heard from the ones who couldn't hack it. But I sure would

>>like to find all those people who left AA and now drink normally it

>>would be great support.

>>Don't worry about what that pyschiatrist said, I don't have a very high

>>opinion of their profession, but that would be another topic.

>>Anyway thanks, you have helped me. Suzy

>> wrote:

>>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5875

>> > Ok I am about to share something with all of you and I am eager for

>>the

>> > feedback. This may long and drawn out, so if you get bored,feel free

>>to

>> > change the channel.

>> > I met my husband at a " sober club " about 10 years ago. I was sober

>>about a

>> > year, and he had about 2 years in AA time. We moved in together about

>>300

>> > miles away from our families and decided to drink again. It took

>>about 6

>> > months for everything to fall apart. We would drink at least a case

>>of beer

>> > and then go out to the bars on a nightly basis. Then we moved down

>>South and

>> > my husband started smoking crack. He was always sorry and shamed and

>> > remorseful when he came home a week later. Then he would take my

>>paycheck and

>> > do it all over again.This lasted for about three years until he went

>>back to

>> > AA. I on the other hand had quit doing any drinking, because of

>>obvious

>> > reasons. I just new there was no way that I was gonna go back into

>>those

>> > rooms and tell anyone any thing that happened to me. Plus for some

>>reason, I

>> > just did not feel like drinking.

>> > This time around back in AA my husband did not seem right. He was

>>treated for

>> > severe depression, was always screaming and picking fights with

>>people. He

>> > would sit in the back of meetings talking and laughing at people. So

>>he had

>> > no friends there, and no one to talk to on the outside. Then one day

>>before

>> > Memorial Day Weekend I came across a copy of The Real AA at Borders.

>>I read

>> > it myself then read some of it to him. Then he read it. This was the

>>first

>> > time, even after his nephew died on the operating table that I saw my

>>husband

>> > cry. Have you ever seen a man cry from relief before? He realized

>>that he did

>> > not have to smoke crack if he had two or five beers.

>> > So thats when I started using him as my own science project. GASP!!!

>>I don't

>> > drink because I dont feel like it. We went to a barbeque on Mem. Day

>>and

>> > guess what?? He had a few beers. He is still alive. During the

>>Basketball

>> > Finals He drank a few at home. He still had a job the next day. Over

>>the

>> > weekend he flew to Georgia to visit Mom and Dad. Had cocktails by the

>>pool,

>> > and ya know what? He did not disapear and smoke crack for a week. So

>> > according to my research my husband suffers from alot of things, but

>> > Alcoholism as THEY define it is not one of them. His psyciatrist will

>>not see

>> > him anymore and says that its only a matter of time before his

>>troubles

>> > resume, that his track record only proves that. Upon further research

>>on his

>> > background I found out he started as a detox caseworker, before

>>becoming an

>> > MD. That answers that question. He has yet to get drunk. He tells me

>>he does

>> > not want to get drunk, he just wants to have a few. Now he knows that

>>the

>> > only way he can get drunk is if he wants to. Not because the Liquor

>>Genie has

>> > put a curse on him.

>> > Am I wrong for using my husband as a subject???

>> > Jen

>> >

>>

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>>FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

>>http://clickhere./click/449

>>

>>

>>

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>> - Simplifying group communications

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

There is a short article by Gilliam on the BC Recover Net which you could

check out for free.

Carol

At 10:29 PM 7/15/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi ,

>Thank you for your post. No, I have not read that book, bit sounds

>like I should.

>It is so good to say something unflattering about AA and not worry

>about getting slammed for it.

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[Guest guest]

Jen,

I feel the same way. Some days are good, others just absolutely suck. No

one should have to live their lives like this! I was at a wedding this

weekend and we had a very interesting conversation. Some of the people were

AAers, some were survivors. What we all seemed to agree on was that after

death occurs-we did not want to believe that there was anything else; that

it would be more like going to sleep. One person's comment, was 'yes,

please, I would like very much for the THINKING to stop!' That's me. I can

put myself in a hole and keep digging...

I found myself also looking at some of these people I have known for years

in a very different light. I watched them lie and hide-something I had not

seen before! I saw so much insecurity. When I questioned one person about

a certain issue, I really had to push to even get some semblance of an

answer out of him. I have not gone to an AA meeting in almost 3 years-and I

like LESS what I see of the people than before! I can guilt-trip mySELF

enough!!

>From: Javajenv@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

>Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:33:09 EDT

>

>Hi

>Even though I talk a good game I have my good and bad days. live in fear

>of

>losing everything all of the time. I can't believe that just living takes

>so

>much effort. But the part that has made life a little bit easier on me has

>been that I am not living in fear of RETRIBUTION the feeling that if I am

>not 100% honest or kind or apologetic, someone somewhere will be out to get

>me, The GOd Of the rooms!!!!

>Love Jen

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi Jan!

Moss Roses are Portulaca-they are succulents-I believe. They're pretty

hardy and grow well in direct sunlight. They come in a lot of different

colors.

I was out this weekend weeding and picking-I had a couple of beefsteak

tomatoes ready-and a ton of banana peppers. I had some sweet peppers, too.

My kids like hot stuff and so does my fiance-me; sometimes.

I find it very relaxing to get out there and nurture. It's very soothing

and productive to me.

We can definitely have that drink on the Net-that's fine. My divorce was

final after almost two years, during which time, my ex totally destroyed my

life. And everybody thought he was " such a nice guy " . It was a relief, but

I am still picking up the pieces. The reason I question my " alcoholism " is

that during all this time-where my life was falling apart, it came to mind

(getting toasted), but I QUIT going to AA meetings DURING the process of the

divorce; I did the opposite of what AA had been teaching me for the past 15

years (to stay close, use your " support system, etc. " )! I moved 30 miles

away! And I didn't drink. Go figure. (!?)

Hang in there!

Love,

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

>Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:23:12 -0400

>

>,

>

>OK! We'll have a drink cyberly. I'm waiting till the divorce is final.

>I'm afraid if my AA husband got wind I had one drink, he'd bring up my AA

>history and how I'm a worthless drunk now, etc, etc, and somehow get

>everything he wants.

>

>Saw in a recent post of yours you enjoy gardening. I developed a love for

>gardening during my marriage. Worked hard on getting a plain bit of

>property to one that blossoms. I guess it's gone to weeds now. But now

>since I'm at my dad's house and caring for that, I have a whole 1/2 acre of

>flat lawn to garden. My mom died in 1991 and Dad didn't do anything in the

>way of gardening after she was gone. I have a lot of work to do in that

>regard. Enjoying it to the max!

>

>What are moss roses?

>

>Jan

>

> Re: Friends that are friends of AA

> >>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:02:00 -0400

> >>

> >><< multipart1 >>

> >

> >

> >_______________________________________________________________

> >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> >Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99

> >at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463

> >

> >

> >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > - Simplifying group communications

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> >

> >

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[Guest guest]

Whoa, Apple, Drink Chanel, CK? That's getting very EXPENSIVE! How many

bottles would you have to drink to get " stinkin " drunk????? HEEHEEHEE!!

>From: AppleDTP@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

>Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:25:11 -0700

>

>Oh Lord , their Avon Collection? You musta had, ahem... very sexy

>breath afterwards... The worst I ever did was abuse Nyquil. Avon,

>that's pretty creative though. I wonder if Chanel No. 5 is a better

>drunk.... or maybe CK One...

>

>Your Dr. Laing sounds like a treasure. I'm so glad there are

>therapists like her out there!

>Apple

>

>

> > Hey Apple;

> >

> > I had to make amends to some folks for drinking their Avon

> > Collection. Told ya I was a low bottom drunk. Anyway the

> > response was " Forget it, but how did you drink that stuff? " I truly

> > don't recall my answer. I can think of a bunch of responses today,

> > but don't recall my answer that day. These folks were friends.

> > Rose and I had given them a color TV the Christmas before, a used

> > one and I was installing a new picture tube in it when this

> > happened. You can see why the insanity idea of AA would appeal

> > to me. My behavior did seem insane. I didn't yet know about the

> > PTSD, I just knew when I had an attack, alcohol would take care of

> > it. Drugs wouldn't. A girlfriend had percadan and that woudn't

> > phase the pain other than by putting me to sleep.

> >

> > We don't see them anymore, not as a result of that incident, but

> > they are AA/Alanon folks and pretty sick. It's depressing to see

> > and listen to them now. We did go visit them a while after being

> > out of AA/Alanon ourselves. As we left Rose asked " Was I ever

> > that Bad? " I was tempted to say no, but instead said " You thought

> > she was a paragon of wellness and she hasn't changed, but no you

> > never were like that "

> >

> > It was a pretty terrible two hours. I know I was shaken by it,

> > because I had thought she was OK also. AA/Alanon's group

> > pressure bypasses my critical thinking by telling me I'm warped in

> > every thought relating to alcohol. The Thing that bothers me is that

> > I mostly believed it.

> >

> > After about three maybe four months in therapy Dr Laing asked me

> > if I felt powerless over alcohol? I said No, I just don't drink it.

>All

> > she said was " Exactly "

> >

> >

> >

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups

Date sent: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:59:29 -0700

To: 12-step-freeegroups

Carol;

I wish I had said that, Thank you

Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

> I think it is true that only those who have had trouble moderating want to

> moderate. Others never think of it and just do it. I don't think of

> drinking because I don't have any desire, de-sire. It is a non-issue.

> Carol

>

> At 04:13 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote:

> >Jen;

> >Your post was a real comfort to me. I still have too much guilt to venture

> >a test on myself and have a glass of wine or an aperetif...sure would be

> >nice. But maybe somewhere down the road I will allow myself the pleasure.

> >Part of it is that I don't trust myself right now to be moderate.

> >

> >I think one of the reasons this website is so controversial is that it does

> >not " judge " as people in AA do. I am certain no one here is doing what was

> >done at tables. If you slipped, you automatically became " less than " .

> >

> >I " got sober " in 1982...I have felt that " sobriety " WAS my identity for al

> >these years. Now I have been in the process of redfining myself. Dealing

> >with my core issue made me realize why I drank-to kill guilt, painful

> >memories and hide. I don't hide anymore, I live with the memories and the

> >guilt...well, that's been a constant that I'm still working on.

> >

> >I admire your courage to be yourself.

> >

> >Love,

> >

> >

> >

> >>From: blackeyedsuzy@...

> >>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> >>Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

> >>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:14:33 -0700

> >>

> >> Dear Jen

> >>Thanks for your post. I have not been here very long and I was starting

> >>to think I didn't belong. Most people who post here at some point

> >>refer to being abstainant. I was feeling kind of like an outcast and

> >>thought about not coming back here. What brought me back was my

> >>incredible dislike of AA.

> >>Anyway, I was sober for eighteen years, my last AA meeting was in 1990

> >>or 91. I too started doing some research and decided drinking too much

> >>is a behavioural problem and not a disease. So I now have a glass of

> >>wine from time to time. I never have more than one and I never drink

> >>more than three days in a week. I think you have to set limits before

> >>you return to drinking. Also the rule in our house is never drink and

> >>drive no matter what. If I go out for dinner and have a glass of wine

> >>then someone else has to be driving, if I drive then I forgo the glass

> >>of wine. Anyway after so many years of not drinking one glass of wine

> >>pretty much makes me loopy.

> >>The only thing I worry about is all those years I was brain washed by

> >>AA meetings, that if I drink again I will turn into drunk. I know

> >>intellectually that that is not true, but I do worry about it becoming

> >>a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I am on guard. I know after my first

> >>glass of

> >> wine I felt guilty because I enjoyed it so much and I enjoyed how it

> >>made me feel. Then I realized everyone who drinks wine feels this way

> >>or they wouldn't drink it. In other words I am not an alcoholic

> >>because I enjoy wine.

> >>My husband was in AA too and he too occassionally has a glass of wine.

> >>I think Stanton Peele's web site may be a good place for you to visit

> >>if you haven't already and also moderation management has a book out to

> >>help people set guidlines, I haven't bought it but intend to. I think

> >>that there are probably a lot of people who leave AA and go back to

> >>drinking normally but they don't come back to AA to tell us about it,

> >>we just heard from the ones who couldn't hack it. But I sure would

> >>like to find all those people who left AA and now drink normally it

> >>would be great support.

> >>Don't worry about what that pyschiatrist said, I don't have a very high

> >>opinion of their profession, but that would be another topic.

> >>Anyway thanks, you have helped me. Suzy

> >> wrote:

> >>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5875

> >> > Ok I am about to share something with all of you and I am eager for

> >>the

> >> > feedback. This may long and drawn out, so if you get bored,feel free

> >>to

> >> > change the channel.

> >> > I met my husband at a " sober club " about 10 years ago. I was sober

> >>about a

> >> > year, and he had about 2 years in AA time. We moved in together about

> >>300

> >> > miles away from our families and decided to drink again. It took

> >>about 6

> >> > months for everything to fall apart. We would drink at least a case

> >>of beer

> >> > and then go out to the bars on a nightly basis. Then we moved down

> >>South and

> >> > my husband started smoking crack. He was always sorry and shamed and

> >> > remorseful when he came home a week later. Then he would take my

> >>paycheck and

> >> > do it all over again.This lasted for about three years until he went

> >>back to

> >> > AA. I on the other hand had quit doing any drinking, because of

> >>obvious

> >> > reasons. I just new there was no way that I was gonna go back into

> >>those

> >> > rooms and tell anyone any thing that happened to me. Plus for some

> >>reason, I

> >> > just did not feel like drinking.

> >> > This time around back in AA my husband did not seem right. He was

> >>treated for

> >> > severe depression, was always screaming and picking fights with

> >>people. He

> >> > would sit in the back of meetings talking and laughing at people. So

> >>he had

> >> > no friends there, and no one to talk to on the outside. Then one day

> >>before

> >> > Memorial Day Weekend I came across a copy of The Real AA at Borders.

> >>I read

> >> > it myself then read some of it to him. Then he read it. This was the

> >>first

> >> > time, even after his nephew died on the operating table that I saw my

> >>husband

> >> > cry. Have you ever seen a man cry from relief before? He realized

> >>that he did

> >> > not have to smoke crack if he had two or five beers.

> >> > So thats when I started using him as my own science project. GASP!!!

> >>I don't

> >> > drink because I dont feel like it. We went to a barbeque on Mem. Day

> >>and

> >> > guess what?? He had a few beers. He is still alive. During the

> >>Basketball

> >> > Finals He drank a few at home. He still had a job the next day. Over

> >>the

> >> > weekend he flew to Georgia to visit Mom and Dad. Had cocktails by the

> >>pool,

> >> > and ya know what? He did not disapear and smoke crack for a week. So

> >> > according to my research my husband suffers from alot of things, but

> >> > Alcoholism as THEY define it is not one of them. His psyciatrist will

> >>not see

> >> > him anymore and says that its only a matter of time before his

> >>troubles

> >> > resume, that his track record only proves that. Upon further research

> >>on his

> >> > background I found out he started as a detox caseworker, before

> >>becoming an

> >> > MD. That answers that question. He has yet to get drunk. He tells me

> >>he does

> >> > not want to get drunk, he just wants to have a few. Now he knows that

> >>the

> >> > only way he can get drunk is if he wants to. Not because the Liquor

> >>Genie has

> >> > put a curse on him.

> >> > Am I wrong for using my husband as a subject???

> >> > Jen

> >> >

> >>

> >>

> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >>Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning

> >>FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

> >>http://clickhere./click/449

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> >> - Simplifying group communications

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >_______________________________________________________________

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> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> ---

> Life is a candy store.

>

> Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

> http://www.bcrecovernet.org

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members

> Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon

> .com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click/363

>

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

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- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups

Date sent: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:59:29 -0700

To: 12-step-freeegroups

Carol;

I wish I had said that, Thank you

Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

> I think it is true that only those who have had trouble moderating want to

> moderate. Others never think of it and just do it. I don't think of

> drinking because I don't have any desire, de-sire. It is a non-issue.

> Carol

>

> At 04:13 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote:

> >Jen;

> >Your post was a real comfort to me. I still have too much guilt to venture

> >a test on myself and have a glass of wine or an aperetif...sure would be

> >nice. But maybe somewhere down the road I will allow myself the pleasure.

> >Part of it is that I don't trust myself right now to be moderate.

> >

> >I think one of the reasons this website is so controversial is that it does

> >not " judge " as people in AA do. I am certain no one here is doing what was

> >done at tables. If you slipped, you automatically became " less than " .

> >

> >I " got sober " in 1982...I have felt that " sobriety " WAS my identity for al

> >these years. Now I have been in the process of redfining myself. Dealing

> >with my core issue made me realize why I drank-to kill guilt, painful

> >memories and hide. I don't hide anymore, I live with the memories and the

> >guilt...well, that's been a constant that I'm still working on.

> >

> >I admire your courage to be yourself.

> >

> >Love,

> >

> >

> >

> >>From: blackeyedsuzy@...

> >>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> >>Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

> >>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:14:33 -0700

> >>

> >> Dear Jen

> >>Thanks for your post. I have not been here very long and I was starting

> >>to think I didn't belong. Most people who post here at some point

> >>refer to being abstainant. I was feeling kind of like an outcast and

> >>thought about not coming back here. What brought me back was my

> >>incredible dislike of AA.

> >>Anyway, I was sober for eighteen years, my last AA meeting was in 1990

> >>or 91. I too started doing some research and decided drinking too much

> >>is a behavioural problem and not a disease. So I now have a glass of

> >>wine from time to time. I never have more than one and I never drink

> >>more than three days in a week. I think you have to set limits before

> >>you return to drinking. Also the rule in our house is never drink and

> >>drive no matter what. If I go out for dinner and have a glass of wine

> >>then someone else has to be driving, if I drive then I forgo the glass

> >>of wine. Anyway after so many years of not drinking one glass of wine

> >>pretty much makes me loopy.

> >>The only thing I worry about is all those years I was brain washed by

> >>AA meetings, that if I drink again I will turn into drunk. I know

> >>intellectually that that is not true, but I do worry about it becoming

> >>a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I am on guard. I know after my first

> >>glass of

> >> wine I felt guilty because I enjoyed it so much and I enjoyed how it

> >>made me feel. Then I realized everyone who drinks wine feels this way

> >>or they wouldn't drink it. In other words I am not an alcoholic

> >>because I enjoy wine.

> >>My husband was in AA too and he too occassionally has a glass of wine.

> >>I think Stanton Peele's web site may be a good place for you to visit

> >>if you haven't already and also moderation management has a book out to

> >>help people set guidlines, I haven't bought it but intend to. I think

> >>that there are probably a lot of people who leave AA and go back to

> >>drinking normally but they don't come back to AA to tell us about it,

> >>we just heard from the ones who couldn't hack it. But I sure would

> >>like to find all those people who left AA and now drink normally it

> >>would be great support.

> >>Don't worry about what that pyschiatrist said, I don't have a very high

> >>opinion of their profession, but that would be another topic.

> >>Anyway thanks, you have helped me. Suzy

> >> wrote:

> >>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5875

> >> > Ok I am about to share something with all of you and I am eager for

> >>the

> >> > feedback. This may long and drawn out, so if you get bored,feel free

> >>to

> >> > change the channel.

> >> > I met my husband at a " sober club " about 10 years ago. I was sober

> >>about a

> >> > year, and he had about 2 years in AA time. We moved in together about

> >>300

> >> > miles away from our families and decided to drink again. It took

> >>about 6

> >> > months for everything to fall apart. We would drink at least a case

> >>of beer

> >> > and then go out to the bars on a nightly basis. Then we moved down

> >>South and

> >> > my husband started smoking crack. He was always sorry and shamed and

> >> > remorseful when he came home a week later. Then he would take my

> >>paycheck and

> >> > do it all over again.This lasted for about three years until he went

> >>back to

> >> > AA. I on the other hand had quit doing any drinking, because of

> >>obvious

> >> > reasons. I just new there was no way that I was gonna go back into

> >>those

> >> > rooms and tell anyone any thing that happened to me. Plus for some

> >>reason, I

> >> > just did not feel like drinking.

> >> > This time around back in AA my husband did not seem right. He was

> >>treated for

> >> > severe depression, was always screaming and picking fights with

> >>people. He

> >> > would sit in the back of meetings talking and laughing at people. So

> >>he had

> >> > no friends there, and no one to talk to on the outside. Then one day

> >>before

> >> > Memorial Day Weekend I came across a copy of The Real AA at Borders.

> >>I read

> >> > it myself then read some of it to him. Then he read it. This was the

> >>first

> >> > time, even after his nephew died on the operating table that I saw my

> >>husband

> >> > cry. Have you ever seen a man cry from relief before? He realized

> >>that he did

> >> > not have to smoke crack if he had two or five beers.

> >> > So thats when I started using him as my own science project. GASP!!!

> >>I don't

> >> > drink because I dont feel like it. We went to a barbeque on Mem. Day

> >>and

> >> > guess what?? He had a few beers. He is still alive. During the

> >>Basketball

> >> > Finals He drank a few at home. He still had a job the next day. Over

> >>the

> >> > weekend he flew to Georgia to visit Mom and Dad. Had cocktails by the

> >>pool,

> >> > and ya know what? He did not disapear and smoke crack for a week. So

> >> > according to my research my husband suffers from alot of things, but

> >> > Alcoholism as THEY define it is not one of them. His psyciatrist will

> >>not see

> >> > him anymore and says that its only a matter of time before his

> >>troubles

> >> > resume, that his track record only proves that. Upon further research

> >>on his

> >> > background I found out he started as a detox caseworker, before

> >>becoming an

> >> > MD. That answers that question. He has yet to get drunk. He tells me

> >>he does

> >> > not want to get drunk, he just wants to have a few. Now he knows that

> >>the

> >> > only way he can get drunk is if he wants to. Not because the Liquor

> >>Genie has

> >> > put a curse on him.

> >> > Am I wrong for using my husband as a subject???

> >> > Jen

> >> >

> >>

> >>

> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >>Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning

> >>FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

> >>http://clickhere./click/449

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> >> - Simplifying group communications

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >_______________________________________________________________

> >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online.

> >Start with up to 150 Points for joining!

> >http://clickhere./click/475

> >

> >

> >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > - Simplifying group communications

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> ---

> Life is a candy store.

>

> Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

> http://www.bcrecovernet.org

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members

> Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon

> .com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click/363

>

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

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- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Carol, :

I have read Carol's response and over and over and I think I'm locked

into some " AA Unconsciousness " with it. Perhaps it was my use of the

word " moderate " ? I don't understand. They've still got me, huh?

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6059

> Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups

> Date sent: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:59:29 -0700

> To: 12-step-freeegroups

>

> Carol;

>

> I wish I had said that, Thank you

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

>

> > I think it is true that only those who have had trouble moderating

want to

> > moderate. Others never think of it and just do it. I don't think of

> > drinking because I don't have any desire, de-sire. It is a

non-issue.

> > Carol

> >

> > At 04:13 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote:

> > >Jen;

> > >Your post was a real comfort to me. I still have too much guilt

to venture

> > >a test on myself and have a glass of wine or an aperetif...sure

would be

> > >nice. But maybe somewhere down the road I will allow myself the

pleasure.

> > >Part of it is that I don't trust myself right now to be moderate.

> > >

> > >I think one of the reasons this website is so controversial is

that it does

> > >not " judge " as people in AA do. I am certain no one here is doing

what was

> > >done at tables. If you slipped, you automatically became " less

than " .

> > >

> > >I " got sober " in 1982...I have felt that " sobriety " WAS my

identity for al

> > >these years. Now I have been in the process of redfining myself.

Dealing

> > >with my core issue made me realize why I drank-to kill guilt,

painful

> > >memories and hide. I don't hide anymore, I live with the memories

and the

> > >guilt...well, that's been a constant that I'm still working on.

> > >

> > >I admire your courage to be yourself.

> > >

> > >Love,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >>From: blackeyedsuzy@...

> > >>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> > >>Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

> > >>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:14:33 -0700

> > >>

> > >> Dear Jen

> > >>Thanks for your post. I have not been here very long and I was

starting

> > >>to think I didn't belong. Most people who post here at some point

> > >>refer to being abstainant. I was feeling kind of like an outcast

and

> > >>thought about not coming back here. What brought me back was my

> > >>incredible dislike of AA.

> > >>Anyway, I was sober for eighteen years, my last AA meeting was in

1990

> > >>or 91. I too started doing some research and decided drinking

too much

> > >>is a behavioural problem and not a disease. So I now have a

glass of

> > >>wine from time to time. I never have more than one and I never

drink

> > >>more than three days in a week. I think you have to set limits

before

> > >>you return to drinking. Also the rule in our house is never drink

and

> > >>drive no matter what. If I go out for dinner and have a glass of

wine

> > >>then someone else has to be driving, if I drive then I forgo the

glass

> > >>of wine. Anyway after so many years of not drinking one glass of

wine

> > >>pretty much makes me loopy.

> > >>The only thing I worry about is all those years I was brain

washed by

> > >>AA meetings, that if I drink again I will turn into drunk. I know

> > >>intellectually that that is not true, but I do worry about it

becoming

> > >>a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I am on guard. I know after my

first

> > >>glass of

> > >> wine I felt guilty because I enjoyed it so much and I enjoyed

how it

> > >>made me feel. Then I realized everyone who drinks wine feels

this way

> > >>or they wouldn't drink it. In other words I am not an alcoholic

> > >>because I enjoy wine.

> > >>My husband was in AA too and he too occassionally has a glass of

wine.

> > >>I think Stanton Peele's web site may be a good place for you to

visit

> > >>if you haven't already and also moderation management has a book

out to

> > >>help people set guidlines, I haven't bought it but intend to. I

think

> > >>that there are probably a lot of people who leave AA and go back

to

> > >>drinking normally but they don't come back to AA to tell us about

it,

> > >>we just heard from the ones who couldn't hack it. But I sure

would

> > >>like to find all those people who left AA and now drink normally

it

> > >>would be great support.

> > >>Don't worry about what that pyschiatrist said, I don't have a

very high

> > >>opinion of their profession, but that would be another topic.

> > >>Anyway thanks, you have helped me. Suzy

> > >> wrote:

> > >>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start

=5875

> > >> > Ok I am about to share something with all of you and I am

eager for

> > >>the

> > >> > feedback. This may long and drawn out, so if you get

bored,feel free

> > >>to

> > >> > change the channel.

> > >> > I met my husband at a " sober club " about 10 years ago. I was

sober

> > >>about a

> > >> > year, and he had about 2 years in AA time. We moved in

together about

> > >>300

> > >> > miles away from our families and decided to drink again. It

took

> > >>about 6

> > >> > months for everything to fall apart. We would drink at least a

case

> > >>of beer

> > >> > and then go out to the bars on a nightly basis. Then we moved

down

> > >>South and

> > >> > my husband started smoking crack. He was always sorry and

shamed and

> > >> > remorseful when he came home a week later. Then he would take

my

> > >>paycheck and

> > >> > do it all over again.This lasted for about three years until

he went

> > >>back to

> > >> > AA. I on the other hand had quit doing any drinking, because of

> > >>obvious

> > >> > reasons. I just new there was no way that I was gonna go back

into

> > >>those

> > >> > rooms and tell anyone any thing that happened to me. Plus for

some

> > >>reason, I

> > >> > just did not feel like drinking.

> > >> > This time around back in AA my husband did not seem right. He

was

> > >>treated for

> > >> > severe depression, was always screaming and picking fights with

> > >>people. He

> > >> > would sit in the back of meetings talking and laughing at

people. So

> > >>he had

> > >> > no friends there, and no one to talk to on the outside. Then

one day

> > >>before

> > >> > Memorial Day Weekend I came across a copy of The Real AA at

Borders.

> > >>I read

> > >> > it myself then read some of it to him. Then he read it. This

was the

> > >>first

> > >> > time, even after his nephew died on the operating table that I

saw my

> > >>husband

> > >> > cry. Have you ever seen a man cry from relief before? He

realized

> > >>that he did

> > >> > not have to smoke crack if he had two or five beers.

> > >> > So thats when I started using him as my own science project.

GASP!!!

> > >>I don't

> > >> > drink because I dont feel like it. We went to a barbeque on

Mem. Day

> > >>and

> > >> > guess what?? He had a few beers. He is still alive. During the

> > >>Basketball

> > >> > Finals He drank a few at home. He still had a job the next

day. Over

> > >>the

> > >> > weekend he flew to Georgia to visit Mom and Dad. Had cocktails

by the

> > >>pool,

> > >> > and ya know what? He did not disapear and smoke crack for a

week. So

> > >> > according to my research my husband suffers from alot of

things, but

> > >> > Alcoholism as THEY define it is not one of them. His

psyciatrist will

> > >>not see

> > >> > him anymore and says that its only a matter of time before his

> > >>troubles

> > >> > resume, that his track record only proves that. Upon further

research

> > >>on his

> > >> > background I found out he started as a detox caseworker, before

> > >>becoming an

> > >> > MD. That answers that question. He has yet to get drunk. He

tells me

> > >>he does

> > >> > not want to get drunk, he just wants to have a few. Now he

knows that

> > >>the

> > >> > only way he can get drunk is if he wants to. Not because the

Liquor

> > >>Genie has

> > >> > put a curse on him.

> > >> > Am I wrong for using my husband as a subject???

> > >> > Jen

> > >> >

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>-----------------------------------------------------------------

-------

> > >>Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning

> > >>FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

> > >>http://clickhere./click/449

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > >> - Simplifying group communications

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >

> > >

> > >_______________________________________________________________

> > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

> > >

> > >------------------------------------------------------------------

------

> > >MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online.

> > >Start with up to 150 Points for joining!

> > >http://clickhere./click/475

> > >

> > >

> > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > - Simplifying group communications

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > ---

> > Life is a candy store.

> >

> > Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

> > http://www.bcrecovernet.org

> >

> > -------------------------------------------------------------------

-----

> > Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups

members

> > Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from

Amazon

> > .com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./clic

k/363

> >

> >

> > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > - Simplifying group communications

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Carol, :

I have read Carol's response and over and over and I think I'm locked

into some " AA Unconsciousness " with it. Perhaps it was my use of the

word " moderate " ? I don't understand. They've still got me, huh?

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6059

> Send reply to: 12-step-freeegroups

> Date sent: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:59:29 -0700

> To: 12-step-freeegroups

>

> Carol;

>

> I wish I had said that, Thank you

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

>

> > I think it is true that only those who have had trouble moderating

want to

> > moderate. Others never think of it and just do it. I don't think of

> > drinking because I don't have any desire, de-sire. It is a

non-issue.

> > Carol

> >

> > At 04:13 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote:

> > >Jen;

> > >Your post was a real comfort to me. I still have too much guilt

to venture

> > >a test on myself and have a glass of wine or an aperetif...sure

would be

> > >nice. But maybe somewhere down the road I will allow myself the

pleasure.

> > >Part of it is that I don't trust myself right now to be moderate.

> > >

> > >I think one of the reasons this website is so controversial is

that it does

> > >not " judge " as people in AA do. I am certain no one here is doing

what was

> > >done at tables. If you slipped, you automatically became " less

than " .

> > >

> > >I " got sober " in 1982...I have felt that " sobriety " WAS my

identity for al

> > >these years. Now I have been in the process of redfining myself.

Dealing

> > >with my core issue made me realize why I drank-to kill guilt,

painful

> > >memories and hide. I don't hide anymore, I live with the memories

and the

> > >guilt...well, that's been a constant that I'm still working on.

> > >

> > >I admire your courage to be yourself.

> > >

> > >Love,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >>From: blackeyedsuzy@...

> > >>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> > >>Subject: Re: Friends that are friends of AA

> > >>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:14:33 -0700

> > >>

> > >> Dear Jen

> > >>Thanks for your post. I have not been here very long and I was

starting

> > >>to think I didn't belong. Most people who post here at some point

> > >>refer to being abstainant. I was feeling kind of like an outcast

and

> > >>thought about not coming back here. What brought me back was my

> > >>incredible dislike of AA.

> > >>Anyway, I was sober for eighteen years, my last AA meeting was in

1990

> > >>or 91. I too started doing some research and decided drinking

too much

> > >>is a behavioural problem and not a disease. So I now have a

glass of

> > >>wine from time to time. I never have more than one and I never

drink

> > >>more than three days in a week. I think you have to set limits

before

> > >>you return to drinking. Also the rule in our house is never drink

and

> > >>drive no matter what. If I go out for dinner and have a glass of

wine

> > >>then someone else has to be driving, if I drive then I forgo the

glass

> > >>of wine. Anyway after so many years of not drinking one glass of

wine

> > >>pretty much makes me loopy.

> > >>The only thing I worry about is all those years I was brain

washed by

> > >>AA meetings, that if I drink again I will turn into drunk. I know

> > >>intellectually that that is not true, but I do worry about it

becoming

> > >>a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I am on guard. I know after my

first

> > >>glass of

> > >> wine I felt guilty because I enjoyed it so much and I enjoyed

how it

> > >>made me feel. Then I realized everyone who drinks wine feels

this way

> > >>or they wouldn't drink it. In other words I am not an alcoholic

> > >>because I enjoy wine.

> > >>My husband was in AA too and he too occassionally has a glass of

wine.

> > >>I think Stanton Peele's web site may be a good place for you to

visit

> > >>if you haven't already and also moderation management has a book

out to

> > >>help people set guidlines, I haven't bought it but intend to. I

think

> > >>that there are probably a lot of people who leave AA and go back

to

> > >>drinking normally but they don't come back to AA to tell us about

it,

> > >>we just heard from the ones who couldn't hack it. But I sure

would

> > >>like to find all those people who left AA and now drink normally

it

> > >>would be great support.

> > >>Don't worry about what that pyschiatrist said, I don't have a

very high

> > >>opinion of their profession, but that would be another topic.

> > >>Anyway thanks, you have helped me. Suzy

> > >> wrote:

> > >>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start

=5875

> > >> > Ok I am about to share something with all of you and I am

eager for

> > >>the

> > >> > feedback. This may long and drawn out, so if you get

bored,feel free

> > >>to

> > >> > change the channel.

> > >> > I met my husband at a " sober club " about 10 years ago. I was

sober

> > >>about a

> > >> > year, and he had about 2 years in AA time. We moved in

together about

> > >>300

> > >> > miles away from our families and decided to drink again. It

took

> > >>about 6

> > >> > months for everything to fall apart. We would drink at least a

case

> > >>of beer

> > >> > and then go out to the bars on a nightly basis. Then we moved

down

> > >>South and

> > >> > my husband started smoking crack. He was always sorry and

shamed and

> > >> > remorseful when he came home a week later. Then he would take

my

> > >>paycheck and

> > >> > do it all over again.This lasted for about three years until

he went

> > >>back to

> > >> > AA. I on the other hand had quit doing any drinking, because of

> > >>obvious

> > >> > reasons. I just new there was no way that I was gonna go back

into

> > >>those

> > >> > rooms and tell anyone any thing that happened to me. Plus for

some

> > >>reason, I

> > >> > just did not feel like drinking.

> > >> > This time around back in AA my husband did not seem right. He

was

> > >>treated for

> > >> > severe depression, was always screaming and picking fights with

> > >>people. He

> > >> > would sit in the back of meetings talking and laughing at

people. So

> > >>he had

> > >> > no friends there, and no one to talk to on the outside. Then

one day

> > >>before

> > >> > Memorial Day Weekend I came across a copy of The Real AA at

Borders.

> > >>I read

> > >> > it myself then read some of it to him. Then he read it. This

was the

> > >>first

> > >> > time, even after his nephew died on the operating table that I

saw my

> > >>husband

> > >> > cry. Have you ever seen a man cry from relief before? He

realized

> > >>that he did

> > >> > not have to smoke crack if he had two or five beers.

> > >> > So thats when I started using him as my own science project.

GASP!!!

> > >>I don't

> > >> > drink because I dont feel like it. We went to a barbeque on

Mem. Day

> > >>and

> > >> > guess what?? He had a few beers. He is still alive. During the

> > >>Basketball

> > >> > Finals He drank a few at home. He still had a job the next

day. Over

> > >>the

> > >> > weekend he flew to Georgia to visit Mom and Dad. Had cocktails

by the

> > >>pool,

> > >> > and ya know what? He did not disapear and smoke crack for a

week. So

> > >> > according to my research my husband suffers from alot of

things, but

> > >> > Alcoholism as THEY define it is not one of them. His

psyciatrist will

> > >>not see

> > >> > him anymore and says that its only a matter of time before his

> > >>troubles

> > >> > resume, that his track record only proves that. Upon further

research

> > >>on his

> > >> > background I found out he started as a detox caseworker, before

> > >>becoming an

> > >> > MD. That answers that question. He has yet to get drunk. He

tells me

> > >>he does

> > >> > not want to get drunk, he just wants to have a few. Now he

knows that

> > >>the

> > >> > only way he can get drunk is if he wants to. Not because the

Liquor

> > >>Genie has

> > >> > put a curse on him.

> > >> > Am I wrong for using my husband as a subject???

> > >> > Jen

> > >> >

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>-----------------------------------------------------------------

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> > >>

> > >>

> > >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > >> - Simplifying group communications

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >

> > >

> > >_______________________________________________________________

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> > >

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> > >

> > >

> > >

> > ---

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> >

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> >

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[Guest guest]

> Infact the vast majority have perfectly interesting

> lives without being on intoxicants.

Hello Carol, folks

" On intoxicants " is open to interpretation I guess, but in

fact only a Minority of individuals in the West do not use

at least one of tobacco, caffeine (similar to

amphethamine), or alcohol, or other things.

Argumentum ad numeram was never very sound philosophically,

and is even more so when the " numeram " is in the wrong

direction.

Pete