Re: Friends that are friends of AA

July 15, 1999

Ok I am about to share something with all of you and I am eager for the

feedback. This may long and drawn out, so if you get bored,feel free to

change the channel.

I met my husband at a " sober club " about 10 years ago. I was sober about a

year, and he had about 2 years in AA time. We moved in together about 300

miles away from our families and decided to drink again. It took about 6

months for everything to fall apart. We would drink at least a case of beer

and then go out to the bars on a nightly basis. Then we moved down South and

my husband started smoking crack. He was always sorry and shamed and

remorseful when he came home a week later. Then he would take my paycheck and

do it all over again.This lasted for about three years until he went back to

AA. I on the other hand had quit doing any drinking, because of obvious

reasons. I just new there was no way that I was gonna go back into those

rooms and tell anyone any thing that happened to me. Plus for some reason, I

just did not feel like drinking.

This time around back in AA my husband did not seem right. He was treated for

severe depression, was always screaming and picking fights with people. He

would sit in the back of meetings talking and laughing at people. So he had

no friends there, and no one to talk to on the outside. Then one day before

Memorial Day Weekend I came across a copy of The Real AA at Borders. I read

it myself then read some of it to him. Then he read it. This was the first

time, even after his nephew died on the operating table that I saw my husband

cry. Have you ever seen a man cry from relief before? He realized that he did

not have to smoke crack if he had two or five beers.

So thats when I started using him as my own science project. GASP!!! I don't

drink because I dont feel like it. We went to a barbeque on Mem. Day and

guess what?? He had a few beers. He is still alive. During the Basketball

Finals He drank a few at home. He still had a job the next day. Over the

weekend he flew to Georgia to visit Mom and Dad. Had cocktails by the pool,

and ya know what? He did not disapear and smoke crack for a week. So

according to my research my husband suffers from alot of things, but

Alcoholism as THEY define it is not one of them. His psyciatrist will not see

him anymore and says that its only a matter of time before his troubles

resume, that his track record only proves that. Upon further research on his

background I found out he started as a detox caseworker, before becoming an

MD. That answers that question. He has yet to get drunk. He tells me he does

not want to get drunk, he just wants to have a few. Now he knows that the

only way he can get drunk is if he wants to. Not because the Liquor Genie has

put a curse on him.

Am I wrong for using my husband as a subject???

Jen

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

July 15, 1999

-well put!

I recall being locked into the AA thinking (brainwashing) and not being

able to understand anything outside the AA parameters. It was really

confusing at times. After a while, I began to be less defensive

hearing critiques and arguments against AA, talked to some people who

had walked away from meetings and found an open door for myself.

I know people who walk away have an impact on AAers. How much is very

debatable. And of what, is as well. I know personally, most time sI

just thought the walkaway got drunk. Then my sponsor walked away.

That's what really got me to thinking. She immersed herself into her

Native American spiritual roots and was much better off. That was

about 8 years ago. I know she doesn't drink, because I know her. As

for thoughts about others; unless I knew them well, I suspected them of

drinking.

I'm more open minded now. A lot more open minded!! First of all, I

don't care if they're drinking or not-it's not the issue. I care more

about my friends' peace of mind than anything else.

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5869

>

> I think you make some worthwhile points in regards to friends who are

> still friends of AA.

> They are the ones who will wonder though. Through all kinds of

> rationalizations they will justify why they are still in a place you

> left. Why you are not paying the AA piper the price of jails,

> institutions and death. No matter how you slice the pie it is they who

> are on the defensive to preserve the status quo of their beliefs. In

> light of your existence which runs contrary to BB rationale you must

be

> explained in terms that can be understood by the hive.

> I mean another way to state 12 step free is to say we do not compute

> with their holy reasoning. They can accuse us of being bitter,

> aggressive, on the attack or any other thing they want to focus on to

> circle the wagons. Yet the plain truth is, we do not fit into their

neat

> little fabricated world of the drunks and the normies. We are the fly

in

> the AA ointment not because we all agree on some new doctrine of

> absolutes but because we have been there , done that and it doesn't

work

> for us. We are not following the AA predictions of what happens to

> members who leave. To AA'ers we are freaks of their natures and they

> have to rationalize us away. Bottom line is their world consists of

AA

> soberites, wet drunks and normies. We don't fit, so we don't exist

> unless we are in one of these three categories. I have lived all over

> this world and in my experience there is a whole lot of variety out

> there that has challenged my perceptions of what a human being is. AA

is

> a limited scope. Ever heard a member say that the longer they are in

AA

> the narrower the road gets?

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

July 15, 1999

Hi Suzy

It was amazing how when I realized that I had a choice, I just did'nt want it

anymore. I had a beer at my stepfathers funeral, and I was like wow, its just

a beer. That was back in May.The thing that I enjoy about this website is

that unlike AA what you do in your private life really makes no differance,

that you can choose to tell folks as little or as much as you want without

feeling like some God above is gonna strike you dead for not being HONEST.

Their degree of honesty never failed to repel me.I used to attend one AA

meeting where you could literally catch people stealing each others stories!!

What a farce!

Jen

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

July 15, 1999

Well

It possibly could just be me but the tone of that last post seemed rather

condesending. I was not aware the this group was for abstinance choosers only

Jen

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

July 15, 1999

Dear Jen

Thanks for your post. I have not been here very long and I was starting

to think I didn't belong. Most people who post here at some point

refer to being abstainant. I was feeling kind of like an outcast and

thought about not coming back here. What brought me back was my

incredible dislike of AA.

Anyway, I was sober for eighteen years, my last AA meeting was in 1990

or 91. I too started doing some research and decided drinking too much

is a behavioural problem and not a disease. So I now have a glass of

wine from time to time. I never have more than one and I never drink

more than three days in a week. I think you have to set limits before

you return to drinking. Also the rule in our house is never drink and

drive no matter what. If I go out for dinner and have a glass of wine

then someone else has to be driving, if I drive then I forgo the glass

of wine. Anyway after so many years of not drinking one glass of wine

pretty much makes me loopy.

The only thing I worry about is all those years I was brain washed by

AA meetings, that if I drink again I will turn into drunk. I know

intellectually that that is not true, but I do worry about it becoming

a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I am on guard. I know after my first

glass of

wine I felt guilty because I enjoyed it so much and I enjoyed how it

made me feel. Then I realized everyone who drinks wine feels this way

or they wouldn't drink it. In other words I am not an alcoholic

because I enjoy wine.

My husband was in AA too and he too occassionally has a glass of wine.

I think Stanton Peele's web site may be a good place for you to visit

if you haven't already and also moderation management has a book out to

help people set guidlines, I haven't bought it but intend to. I think

that there are probably a lot of people who leave AA and go back to

drinking normally but they don't come back to AA to tell us about it,

we just heard from the ones who couldn't hack it. But I sure would

like to find all those people who left AA and now drink normally it

would be great support.

Don't worry about what that pyschiatrist said, I don't have a very high

opinion of their profession, but that would be another topic.

Anyway thanks, you have helped me. Suzy

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5875

> Ok I am about to share something with all of you and I am eager for

the

> feedback. This may long and drawn out, so if you get bored,feel free

to

> change the channel.

> I met my husband at a " sober club " about 10 years ago. I was sober

about a

> year, and he had about 2 years in AA time. We moved in together about

300

> miles away from our families and decided to drink again. It took

about 6

> months for everything to fall apart. We would drink at least a case

of beer

> and then go out to the bars on a nightly basis. Then we moved down

South and

> my husband started smoking crack. He was always sorry and shamed and

> remorseful when he came home a week later. Then he would take my

paycheck and

> do it all over again.This lasted for about three years until he went

back to

> AA. I on the other hand had quit doing any drinking, because of

obvious

> reasons. I just new there was no way that I was gonna go back into

those

> rooms and tell anyone any thing that happened to me. Plus for some

reason, I

> just did not feel like drinking.

> This time around back in AA my husband did not seem right. He was

treated for

> severe depression, was always screaming and picking fights with

people. He

> would sit in the back of meetings talking and laughing at people. So

he had

> no friends there, and no one to talk to on the outside. Then one day

before

> Memorial Day Weekend I came across a copy of The Real AA at Borders.

I read

> it myself then read some of it to him. Then he read it. This was the

first

> time, even after his nephew died on the operating table that I saw my

husband

> cry. Have you ever seen a man cry from relief before? He realized

that he did

> not have to smoke crack if he had two or five beers.

> So thats when I started using him as my own science project. GASP!!!

I don't

> drink because I dont feel like it. We went to a barbeque on Mem. Day

and

> guess what?? He had a few beers. He is still alive. During the

Basketball

> Finals He drank a few at home. He still had a job the next day. Over

the

> weekend he flew to Georgia to visit Mom and Dad. Had cocktails by the

pool,

> and ya know what? He did not disapear and smoke crack for a week. So

> according to my research my husband suffers from alot of things, but

> Alcoholism as THEY define it is not one of them. His psyciatrist will

not see

> him anymore and says that its only a matter of time before his

troubles

> resume, that his track record only proves that. Upon further research

on his

> background I found out he started as a detox caseworker, before

becoming an

> MD. That answers that question. He has yet to get drunk. He tells me

he does

> not want to get drunk, he just wants to have a few. Now he knows that

the

> only way he can get drunk is if he wants to. Not because the Liquor

Genie has

> put a curse on him.

> Am I wrong for using my husband as a subject???

> Jen

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

July 15, 1999

Hi Suzy;

I don't think you can rape a willing soul, so to speak.

As long as you don't push buttons either way, I fail to see the

harm. It might harm your attitude though. I don't know really so I

won't keep talking till I prove it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

July 15, 1999

Hi Suzy;

Perhaps you've never heard me mention I've had heart surgery and

am on tons of medications. Alcohol interacts with at least four of

them. For me to drink would be self destructive in the extreme.

Besides which I've lived nearly nine years without it and have no

social occasions that require drinking. Why bother? Rose likes

beer with tomato juice in it in the summer time. We go

somewhere, a resturaunt where they'll serve it at the table and she

has it there. We don't keep it in the house. Besides one is all she

ever wants. A six pack would turn to dust before she drank it all.

I use a lot of alcohol in my work and I can feel the effect on my

heart if the ventillation is not up to par. So I don't even consider

experimenting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

July 15, 1999

Hi Jen,

My reaction to wine was the same as yours was to beer. After I had

that wine I no longer feared alcohol, it must be when I first realized

that I do have power over my behaviour and I was definitely not

powerless over alcohol.

And you are right about those stories in AA, I too heard a woman repeat

a story that belonged to someone else. What always got to me at meetings was listening to those so called

honest people always having the answers, they only talked about

problems in the past tense. A man or a woman at a meeting might say

that they had a problem that week with anger and asked that their

problem be the topic, then all those honest know-it-alls would say

things like, last week when I was so angry at my boss I did such and

such, then the next one would say last week when I was so angry at my

wife until I did such and such. And they would go on and on about how

much they suffered due to their anger until finally they remembered an

AA sanctioned remedey. And I would think, I was here last week and none

of you mentioned you had a problem. I always tried to be real and

honest and then I found out I was all alone. Suzy

wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5895

> Hi Suzy

> It was amazing how when I realized that I had a choice, I just did'nt

want it > anymore. I had a beer at my stepfathers funeral, and I was like wow,

its just > a beer. That was back in May.The thing that I enjoy about this

website is > that unlike AA what you do in your private life really makes no

differance, > that you can choose to tell folks as little or as much as you want

without > feeling like some God above is gonna strike you dead for not being

HONEST. > Their degree of honesty never failed to repel me.I used to attend one

AA > meeting where you could literally catch people stealing each others

stories!! > What a farce!

> Jen

>

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

www. - Simplifying group communications

July 15, 1999

,

The label for us is: " Not real alcoholics "

Jan

Friends that are friends of AA

>

>I think you make some worthwhile points in regards to friends who are

>still friends of AA.

>They are the ones who will wonder though. Through all kinds of

>rationalizations they will justify why they are still in a place you

>left. Why you are not paying the AA piper the price of jails,

>institutions and death. No matter how you slice the pie it is they who

>are on the defensive to preserve the status quo of their beliefs. In

>light of your existence which runs contrary to BB rationale you must be

>explained in terms that can be understood by the hive.

>I mean another way to state 12 step free is to say we do not compute

>with their holy reasoning. They can accuse us of being bitter,

>aggressive, on the attack or any other thing they want to focus on to

>circle the wagons. Yet the plain truth is, we do not fit into their neat

>little fabricated world of the drunks and the normies. We are the fly in

>the AA ointment not because we all agree on some new doctrine of

>absolutes but because we have been there , done that and it doesn't work

>for us. We are not following the AA predictions of what happens to

>members who leave. To AA'ers we are freaks of their natures and they

>have to rationalize us away. Bottom line is their world consists of AA

>soberites, wet drunks and normies. We don't fit, so we don't exist

>unless we are in one of these three categories. I have lived all over

>this world and in my experience there is a whole lot of variety out

>there that has challenged my perceptions of what a human being is. AA is

>a limited scope. Ever heard a member say that the longer they are in AA

>the narrower the road gets?

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning

>FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

>http://clickhere./click/449

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

July 15, 1999

Jen,

Nah, don't let him in on it! Ignorance is bliss! Let him skip along his

merry road clueless.

However, we all want quarterly reports.

Jan

Re: Friends that are friends of AA

>Ok I am about to share something with all of you and I am eager for the

>feedback. This may long and drawn out, so if you get bored,feel free to

>change the channel.

>I met my husband at a " sober club " about 10 years ago. I was sober about a

>year, and he had about 2 years in AA time. We moved in together about 300

>miles away from our families and decided to drink again. It took about 6

>months for everything to fall apart. We would drink at least a case of beer

>and then go out to the bars on a nightly basis. Then we moved down South

and

>my husband started smoking crack. He was always sorry and shamed and

>remorseful when he came home a week later. Then he would take my paycheck

and

>do it all over again.This lasted for about three years until he went back

to

>AA. I on the other hand had quit doing any drinking, because of obvious

>reasons. I just new there was no way that I was gonna go back into those

>rooms and tell anyone any thing that happened to me. Plus for some reason,

I

>just did not feel like drinking.

>This time around back in AA my husband did not seem right. He was treated

for

>severe depression, was always screaming and picking fights with people. He

>would sit in the back of meetings talking and laughing at people. So he had

>no friends there, and no one to talk to on the outside. Then one day before

>Memorial Day Weekend I came across a copy of The Real AA at Borders. I read

>it myself then read some of it to him. Then he read it. This was the first

>time, even after his nephew died on the operating table that I saw my

husband

>cry. Have you ever seen a man cry from relief before? He realized that he

did

>not have to smoke crack if he had two or five beers.

>So thats when I started using him as my own science project. GASP!!! I

don't

>drink because I dont feel like it. We went to a barbeque on Mem. Day and

>guess what?? He had a few beers. He is still alive. During the Basketball

>Finals He drank a few at home. He still had a job the next day. Over the

>weekend he flew to Georgia to visit Mom and Dad. Had cocktails by the pool,

>and ya know what? He did not disapear and smoke crack for a week. So

>according to my research my husband suffers from alot of things, but

>Alcoholism as THEY define it is not one of them. His psyciatrist will not

see

>him anymore and says that its only a matter of time before his troubles

>resume, that his track record only proves that. Upon further research on

his

>background I found out he started as a detox caseworker, before becoming an

>MD. That answers that question. He has yet to get drunk. He tells me he

does

>not want to get drunk, he just wants to have a few. Now he knows that the

>only way he can get drunk is if he wants to. Not because the Liquor Genie

has

>put a curse on him.

>Am I wrong for using my husband as a subject???

>Jen

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req.

>Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99

>at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

July 16, 1999

Jen--that really is what AA is like, isn't it? That describes how I feel

about my experience with AA too. I keep thinking of the 4th step (I think?)

it's the one about the searching and fearless moral inventory. Anyway,

outside of AA, people don't really seem too awful interested in moral

inventories. They care more about my behavior now than hearing a confession

of my past sins.

And when you say " if I am not 100% honest or kind or apologetic, someone

somewhere will be out to get me, The GOd Of the rooms!!!! " you know, I

realize there are different shades of honesty. Why is it more honest to

focus on what's wrong with me than on what's right with me? Why is it more

honest to apologize for my mistakes than to boast about my successes?

The truth is, people all have things in their past they'd like to forget

about. Those things don't have to define who we are forever. We're unique

and rich in experience. The past is for learning, not constantly rehashing

to see if I've adequately atoned for something I did 20 years ago.

Sorry, got a bit ranty there!

Judith

> Hi

> Even though I talk a good game I have my good and bad days. live in fear

of losing everything all of the time. I can't believe that just living takes

so much effort. But the part that has made life a little bit easier on me

has been that I am not living in fear of RETRIBUTION the feeling that if I

am not 100% honest or kind or apologetic, someone somewhere will be out to

get me, The GOd Of the rooms!!!!

> Love Jen

_______________________________________________________

Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

July 16, 1999