Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Judith, you're right. The 12 & 12 is absolutely crazy. Go to ANY fourth step meeting. It's almost as if the people have an invisible cat o' nine tails in hand that they're beating themselves with. I too have laughed my ass off at the bit about retirement really being SLOTH in disguise. What a laugh! AA says flat out in one of its catchy phrases... " it takes 2 years to get your brain out of hock, and 3 more to unscramble it " . Well guess what... Bill W. had 3 years sober when he wrote the Big Book & 12 and 12. Apple ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Judith, you're right. The 12 & 12 is absolutely crazy. Go to ANY fourth step meeting. It's almost as if the people have an invisible cat o' nine tails in hand that they're beating themselves with. I too have laughed my ass off at the bit about retirement really being SLOTH in disguise. What a laugh! AA says flat out in one of its catchy phrases... " it takes 2 years to get your brain out of hock, and 3 more to unscramble it " . Well guess what... Bill W. had 3 years sober when he wrote the Big Book & 12 and 12. Apple ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Judith, Great venting! Written with a lot of thought and good common sense. Jan steps >I warn you in advance: I'm venting here. Long winded, selfish, therapeutic >venting. Read on at your own risk > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Thanks for this post, Wally, this really explains a lot for me. For Bill himself, I can't help empathizing. But for the counselor who pushed me into AA, and for the group who pushed this literature on me when I was depressed myself and vulnerable...I don't feel vengeful or hateful but the word " accountability " comes to mind. Judith > The 12 & 12 came out in 1952, or so, when Bill W. had allegedly been sober for 17 years. HOWEVER, for many of those years, and particularly during the years when he was writing the 12 & 12, he suffered from clinical depression. He tried psychoanalysis (didn't help) and at times was suicidal.> > > 12 & 12 seems to me to be an expression of a depressive philosophy of life. When you refer to it as " absolutely crazy " you hit the nail on the head. It was written by a very sick man. In a nutshell, what it says is that life is helplessness and guilt. If anything bad happens, it is your fault. If anything good happens, it's because of " god " and/or AA.> > > It's sort of like Christianity minus salvation. _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 1999 Report Share Posted July 19, 1999 Judith Stillwater wrote: > > My take is that there is a lunatic fringe in *A, just as in any other group. > And when government funding is given to organizations which advocate for the > 12 step, disease model of addiction, then everything gets all screwed up > because of competition for increasingly scarce funding. Even people in *A > debate, for instance, about the ethics/legality of court ordering attendance > at meetings. > ----------------------------------- I've read some of the " debate " on court-ordered 12-step attendance on ARAA. Most of the steppers have expressed ideas along the line of " If even just a few of the coerced attendees become sober through the steps, it couldn't really be such a bad thing to force people to attend " etc. Others say things like " No, they shouldn't try to force people to get sober; when they really want to get sober, they'll come to AA on their own " (as though rejecting AA means ipso facto rejecting sobriety!). There IS no legitimate " debate " about court (or other state agency) coerced 12-step attendance/involvement -- It has REPEATEDLY and unequivocally been declared to be " government establishment of religion " . This is of course a separate issue entirely from whether AA " works " or not. I understand the Moonies have a pretty good " success " rate of producing abstinence in members who were former drinkers/druggers. But one could hardly imagine a serious " debate " over whether judges should order substance abusers to join the Moonies! ~Rita ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 1999 Report Share Posted July 19, 1999 Hey Rita--when I first read this, I couldn't think of a reply. Your points are all valid. Reading your response helps me see how I make excuses for AA when in fact all AA did for me was make me emotionally less healthy. I'm in therapy right now dealing with that experience, and I think I need to stop trying to be so nice about it. I don't want to go all the way into " I hate AA. " But I'm not sure why, I guess just to save myself from that intense emotion. As it is, though, I often put a lot of energy into hating myself for not being what I think I should be at this point in my life. I think my hatred is better directed at AA, since the choice I made in 1984 to try AA had results so disastrous I'm still working to overcome them. It's time for me to stop protecting AA, stop making excuses for them. I don't want to overdramatize my victim-ness, but I also don't want to underemphasize the degree of damage done to me by this experience. I just want to tell the truth. Thanks, Rita. I think your post helped me to be able to do that. Judith > I've read some of the " debate " on court-ordered 12-step attendance on ARAA. Most of the steppers have expressed ideas along the line of " If even just a few of the coerced attendees become sober through the steps, it couldn't really be such a bad thing to force people to attend " etc. Others say things like " No, they shouldn't try to force people to get sober; when they really want to get sober, they'll come to AA on their own " (as though rejecting AA means ipso facto rejecting sobriety!).> > > There IS no legitimate " debate " about court (or other state agency) coerced 12-step attendance/involvement -- It has REPEATEDLY and unequivocally been declared to be " government establishment of religion " .> > > This is of course a separate issue entirely from whether AA " works " or not. I understand the Moonies have a pretty good " success " rate of producing abstinence in members who were former drinkers/druggers. But one could hardly imagine a serious " debate " over whether judges should order substance abusers to join the Moonies! > > ~Rita _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 1999 Report Share Posted July 19, 1999 Hey Rita--when I first read this, I couldn't think of a reply. Your points are all valid. Reading your response helps me see how I make excuses for AA when in fact all AA did for me was make me emotionally less healthy. I'm in therapy right now dealing with that experience, and I think I need to stop trying to be so nice about it. I don't want to go all the way into " I hate AA. " But I'm not sure why, I guess just to save myself from that intense emotion. As it is, though, I often put a lot of energy into hating myself for not being what I think I should be at this point in my life. I think my hatred is better directed at AA, since the choice I made in 1984 to try AA had results so disastrous I'm still working to overcome them. It's time for me to stop protecting AA, stop making excuses for them. I don't want to overdramatize my victim-ness, but I also don't want to underemphasize the degree of damage done to me by this experience. I just want to tell the truth. Thanks, Rita. I think your post helped me to be able to do that. Judith > I've read some of the " debate " on court-ordered 12-step attendance on ARAA. Most of the steppers have expressed ideas along the line of " If even just a few of the coerced attendees become sober through the steps, it couldn't really be such a bad thing to force people to attend " etc. Others say things like " No, they shouldn't try to force people to get sober; when they really want to get sober, they'll come to AA on their own " (as though rejecting AA means ipso facto rejecting sobriety!).> > > There IS no legitimate " debate " about court (or other state agency) coerced 12-step attendance/involvement -- It has REPEATEDLY and unequivocally been declared to be " government establishment of religion " .> > > This is of course a separate issue entirely from whether AA " works " or not. I understand the Moonies have a pretty good " success " rate of producing abstinence in members who were former drinkers/druggers. But one could hardly imagine a serious " debate " over whether judges should order substance abusers to join the Moonies! > > ~Rita _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 1999 Report Share Posted July 20, 1999 Hi Rebekah; I particularly enjoyed the post below in re isolation. I find isolation to do all those things and another also. After a period of isolation I appreciate people a bit more and relate to the a little differently. I find it easier to take them as they come. Like you I believe going to 27 self help groups and reading their books assumes something basically wrong, but is there? I don't think so. I've had spinal TB. It destroyed part of my lower spine and I am a full 2 inches shorter than I was previous to that. Should I spend the rest of my life studying improvement for short people? I am five six and unlikely to get taller. I did go through a period of clumsiness because my eyes are two inches nearer the ground than I was used to. Tripped on curbs etc, but that's long gone now. Even after long drug therapy I'll have the disease or its anti bodies for life, not an imagined hypothetical disease, but a very real one. My finding is that a real disease is a lot easier to recover from. Did this affect my thinking? Damned straight it did. Hell I totally lost control of my legs for a while and I was used to playing tennis, handball, racket ball and shoot a few baskets and there I was imprisoned in a bed. Talk about self pity on the front burner! But, I recovered. Most folks would never guess unless they were a doctor, or I was having a bad day and limped a bit. I had help. Law students from The University of Iowa came to see me, they outright took over some of my cases and helped me by researching others. I still credit staying in touch with the world through them, with saving my attitude, which I believe saved my legs. In 1980, when I walked again unaided, I was the only known survivor to walk. I mean the only one who had been parylized and later walked again. The disease was the center of my life for only a couple of months. It got gradually pushed down in importance by events, desires, just plain living. The thing that pushed it totally to a rear burner was a bad break. Riding a moped I got hit by a car on 6th ave in Des Moines, it was hit and run. Broke my ankle and I had road rashes all over. I got the moped restarted and got home. I got to the hospital and they found no further damage to my back. That happened in 1985. I quit worrying. If my back could take being rolled on concrete at 25mph, I figured I was ok. BTW, I got hit again almost a year to the day in Tempe Arizona, riding a ten speed. Only a drunk could get run over by a 40 foot cabin cruiser in the middle of the desert! I was pretty drunk both times, probably a lesson there somewhere. Mostly though, all of the above falls under " Shit Happens " , but do I want the shit in my life to be the focus of my life? No I don't, and it can only gain that position if I allow it. I remember well how my self pity disappeared in the face of those young law students so willing to help. They appealed to my intellect, not the broken body. Self help groups can't give that, because they don't know how. They react to sickness, real or imagined, those kids reacted to potential, what could we accomplish was there question, not how sick are you? I'll never know if they came to lift me out of the pit, but they sure did just that. However, they could not have done it without my cooperation. BTW. How can it be self help, if it is a group? What happened back then I can repeat in a small way by using isolation to listen to myself, then being exposed to people again. Yesterday after a couple of weeks or three of only home and shop, we had to go get Roses station wagon stranded in Des Moines. I fixed it in a few minutes, thanked the folks at Quick Trip for allowing Rose to leave it parked there for two days and we each drove our cars home. The isolation was good, ending it was good. You might call it a win/win situation. I do. Subject: Re: steps > Hi Judith, > I really enjoyed reading your " rant " > and thought it was great. I finally got angry enough myself to through out > the dang AA measuring stick, and for that matter, anyone elses that attempts > to tell me how I should think, feel, or act. > > AA's moral inventory is a crock. Especially when it is based on > puritanical, > shame-based concepts. You know that " isolation " concept that is bantered > about in meetings....if you isolate and listen to your own thoughts really > bad things are supposed to happen? I decided to take that to an extreme. My > creativity just took off. > After 3 or 4 days, I had finished a whole lot of beautiful pieces of > claywork, taken a lot of naps, and could actually hear my own voice again. I > periodically schedule these kind of personal retreats, and they allow me to > find out what I want, not what other people are trying to tell me I should > want. The worst thing that happens is that > I come out of them invigorated, and I want to go have coffee or hang out > with a friend > just to talk about life. > > I am sick of the chronic, compulsive, self-improvement bs too. It's based > on the whole belief there is something dreadfully and fundementally " WRONG " > with a person. > > I advocate slothfullness too. It's one of my best qualities! I have a few > friends who are living what I think, are " out of control " lives. Big houses, > cars, hectic work schedules. Thier days off are even worse. They don't ever > relax, and I don't think they can. It's not for me. I would rather have > fewer posessions, and have my sanity. I have plenty of creative projects to > keep me busy. If I want excitement, I can float in a cool lake in an > inner-tube with a good novel. I can't believe I used to be an adrenaline > junkie...a paramedic,a skydiver....maybe I am just getting old. Life seems > pretty good these days, and I really like my own company. No steps, no > forever scrutinizing whats wrong with me. > Rebekah > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. > Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 > at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 1999 Report Share Posted July 20, 1999 As to your story about being two inches shorter, I really could relate. Of course you have never been pregnant, but I have, and I had a very easy pregnancy and birth. In fact, my son was born within an hour after I reached the hospital, after every one had said " Oh, she'll be hours, it's her first. " Upshot, the doctor wasn't available. But that's beside the point. Next day, I got up to go to the bathroom, and the nurse asked if she could help. I said no, I was fine, and started to walk and fell flat on my ass! I forgot that I had lost 65 pounds from my tummy the day before, and I was still compensating for it! As for the eye thing, I can relate to it too. I am legally blind in one eye, almost so in the other, and have to wear coke bottle glasses to do anything, even see the clock on the nightstand in the morning. When I learned to drive, I used to almost rear end every car I was behind, and my parents would yell and yell at me. It wasn't until I got contact lenses that I realized how much the distance between the lens of my eye and the lens of my glasses compromised my depth perception. I had no problems with depth perception with the contacts, and I wore them for 37 years. But eventually I reached the point where my sight could not be corrected with contacts. So now I am learning to compensate again for the deficit in my depth perception. I don't really have much to say that relates to your point. The pregnancy story is only meant to be funny. But as to the eyesight, and your experience with spinal TB, I think perhaps the less we think of something as a handicap or disability, the easier it is to overcome, and when it can't be overcome, to live with. It's really odd, you know, I have all these defining handicaps. I've had cancer, I have chronic bronchitis and sinus problems, the eyesight thing, etc. Yet AA would still say I'm " just " an alcoholic. I don't think of myself as a recovering cancer victim, or legally blind, or someone with breathing problems. But I have a very hard time shaking the belief that I'm alcoholic. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6129 > Hi Rebekah; > > I particularly enjoyed the post below in re isolation. I find isolation > to do all those things and another also. After a period of isolation I > appreciate people a bit more and relate to the a little differently. I > find it easier to take them as they come. > > Like you I believe going to 27 self help groups and reading their > books assumes something basically wrong, but is there? I don't > think so. > > I've had spinal TB. It destroyed part of my lower spine and I am a > full 2 inches shorter than I was previous to that. Should I spend the > rest of my life studying improvement for short people? I am five six > and unlikely to get taller. I did go through a period of clumsiness > because my eyes are two inches nearer the ground than I was > used to. Tripped on curbs etc, but that's long gone now. Even > after long drug therapy I'll have the disease or its anti bodies for life, > not an imagined hypothetical disease, but a very real one. > > My finding is that a real disease is a lot easier to recover from. Did > this affect my thinking? Damned straight it did. Hell I totally lost > control of my legs for a while and I was used to playing tennis, > handball, racket ball and shoot a few baskets and there I was > imprisoned in a bed. Talk about self pity on the front burner! > > But, I recovered. Most folks would never guess unless they were a > doctor, or I was having a bad day and limped a bit. I had help. > Law students from The University of Iowa came to see me, they > outright took over some of my cases and helped me by researching > others. I still credit staying in touch with the world through them, > with saving my attitude, which I believe saved my legs. In 1980, > when I walked again unaided, I was the only known survivor to > walk. I mean the only one who had been parylized and later > walked again. The disease was the center of my life for only a > couple of months. It got gradually pushed down in importance by > events, desires, just plain living. The thing that pushed it totally to > a rear burner was a bad break. Riding a moped I got hit by a car > on 6th ave in Des Moines, it was hit and run. Broke my ankle and I > had road rashes all over. I got the moped restarted and got home. > I got to the hospital and they found no further damage to my back. > > That happened in 1985. I quit worrying. If my back could take > being rolled on concrete at 25mph, I figured I was ok. BTW, I got > hit again almost a year to the day in Tempe Arizona, riding a ten > speed. Only a drunk could get run over by a 40 foot cabin cruiser > in the middle of the desert! I was pretty drunk both times, probably > a lesson there somewhere. > > Mostly though, all of the above falls under " Shit Happens " , but do I > want the shit in my life to be the focus of my life? No I don't, and it > can only gain that position if I allow it. I remember well how my > self pity disappeared in the face of those young law students so > willing to help. They appealed to my intellect, not the broken body. > > Self help groups can't give that, because they don't know how. > They react to sickness, real or imagined, those kids reacted to > potential, what could we accomplish was there question, not how > sick are you? I'll never know if they came to lift me out of the pit, > but they sure did just that. However, they could not have done it > without my cooperation. > > BTW. How can it be self help, if it is a group? > > What happened back then I can repeat in a small way by using > isolation to listen to myself, then being exposed to people again. > Yesterday after a couple of weeks or three of only home and shop, > we had to go get Roses station wagon stranded in Des Moines. I > fixed it in a few minutes, thanked the folks at Quick Trip for > allowing Rose to leave it parked there for two days and we each > drove our cars home. The isolation was good, ending it was good. > You might call it a win/win situation. I do. > > > > > Subject: Re: steps > > Hi Judith, > > I really enjoyed reading your " rant " > > and thought it was great. I finally got angry enough myself to through out > > the dang AA measuring stick, and for that matter, anyone elses that attempts > > to tell me how I should think, feel, or act. > > > > AA's moral inventory is a crock. Especially when it is based on > > puritanical, > > shame-based concepts. You know that " isolation " concept that is bantered > > about in meetings....if you isolate and listen to your own thoughts really > > bad things are supposed to happen? I decided to take that to an extreme. My > > creativity just took off. > > After 3 or 4 days, I had finished a whole lot of beautiful pieces of > > claywork, taken a lot of naps, and could actually hear my own voice again. I > > periodically schedule these kind of personal retreats, and they allow me to > > find out what I want, not what other people are trying to tell me I should > > want. The worst thing that happens is that > > I come out of them invigorated, and I want to go have coffee or hang out > > with a friend > > just to talk about life. > > > > I am sick of the chronic, compulsive, self-improvement bs too. It's based > > on the whole belief there is something dreadfully and fundementally " WRONG " > > with a person. > > > > I advocate slothfullness too. It's one of my best qualities! I have a few > > friends who are living what I think, are " out of control " lives. Big houses, > > cars, hectic work schedules. Thier days off are even worse. They don't ever > > relax, and I don't think they can. It's not for me. I would rather have > > fewer posessions, and have my sanity. I have plenty of creative projects to > > keep me busy. If I want excitement, I can float in a cool lake in an > > inner-tube with a good novel. I can't believe I used to be an adrenaline > > junkie...a paramedic,a skydiver....maybe I am just getting old. Life seems > > pretty good these days, and I really like my own company. No steps, no > > forever scrutinizing whats wrong with me. > > Rebekah > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. > > Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 > > at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 1999 Report Share Posted July 20, 1999 As to your story about being two inches shorter, I really could relate. Of course you have never been pregnant, but I have, and I had a very easy pregnancy and birth. In fact, my son was born within an hour after I reached the hospital, after every one had said " Oh, she'll be hours, it's her first. " Upshot, the doctor wasn't available. But that's beside the point. Next day, I got up to go to the bathroom, and the nurse asked if she could help. I said no, I was fine, and started to walk and fell flat on my ass! I forgot that I had lost 65 pounds from my tummy the day before, and I was still compensating for it! As for the eye thing, I can relate to it too. I am legally blind in one eye, almost so in the other, and have to wear coke bottle glasses to do anything, even see the clock on the nightstand in the morning. When I learned to drive, I used to almost rear end every car I was behind, and my parents would yell and yell at me. It wasn't until I got contact lenses that I realized how much the distance between the lens of my eye and the lens of my glasses compromised my depth perception. I had no problems with depth perception with the contacts, and I wore them for 37 years. But eventually I reached the point where my sight could not be corrected with contacts. So now I am learning to compensate again for the deficit in my depth perception. I don't really have much to say that relates to your point. The pregnancy story is only meant to be funny. But as to the eyesight, and your experience with spinal TB, I think perhaps the less we think of something as a handicap or disability, the easier it is to overcome, and when it can't be overcome, to live with. It's really odd, you know, I have all these defining handicaps. I've had cancer, I have chronic bronchitis and sinus problems, the eyesight thing, etc. Yet AA would still say I'm " just " an alcoholic. I don't think of myself as a recovering cancer victim, or legally blind, or someone with breathing problems. But I have a very hard time shaking the belief that I'm alcoholic. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6129 > Hi Rebekah; > > I particularly enjoyed the post below in re isolation. I find isolation > to do all those things and another also. After a period of isolation I > appreciate people a bit more and relate to the a little differently. I > find it easier to take them as they come. > > Like you I believe going to 27 self help groups and reading their > books assumes something basically wrong, but is there? I don't > think so. > > I've had spinal TB. It destroyed part of my lower spine and I am a > full 2 inches shorter than I was previous to that. Should I spend the > rest of my life studying improvement for short people? I am five six > and unlikely to get taller. I did go through a period of clumsiness > because my eyes are two inches nearer the ground than I was > used to. Tripped on curbs etc, but that's long gone now. Even > after long drug therapy I'll have the disease or its anti bodies for life, > not an imagined hypothetical disease, but a very real one. > > My finding is that a real disease is a lot easier to recover from. Did > this affect my thinking? Damned straight it did. Hell I totally lost > control of my legs for a while and I was used to playing tennis, > handball, racket ball and shoot a few baskets and there I was > imprisoned in a bed. Talk about self pity on the front burner! > > But, I recovered. Most folks would never guess unless they were a > doctor, or I was having a bad day and limped a bit. I had help. > Law students from The University of Iowa came to see me, they > outright took over some of my cases and helped me by researching > others. I still credit staying in touch with the world through them, > with saving my attitude, which I believe saved my legs. In 1980, > when I walked again unaided, I was the only known survivor to > walk. I mean the only one who had been parylized and later > walked again. The disease was the center of my life for only a > couple of months. It got gradually pushed down in importance by > events, desires, just plain living. The thing that pushed it totally to > a rear burner was a bad break. Riding a moped I got hit by a car > on 6th ave in Des Moines, it was hit and run. Broke my ankle and I > had road rashes all over. I got the moped restarted and got home. > I got to the hospital and they found no further damage to my back. > > That happened in 1985. I quit worrying. If my back could take > being rolled on concrete at 25mph, I figured I was ok. BTW, I got > hit again almost a year to the day in Tempe Arizona, riding a ten > speed. Only a drunk could get run over by a 40 foot cabin cruiser > in the middle of the desert! I was pretty drunk both times, probably > a lesson there somewhere. > > Mostly though, all of the above falls under " Shit Happens " , but do I > want the shit in my life to be the focus of my life? No I don't, and it > can only gain that position if I allow it. I remember well how my > self pity disappeared in the face of those young law students so > willing to help. They appealed to my intellect, not the broken body. > > Self help groups can't give that, because they don't know how. > They react to sickness, real or imagined, those kids reacted to > potential, what could we accomplish was there question, not how > sick are you? I'll never know if they came to lift me out of the pit, > but they sure did just that. However, they could not have done it > without my cooperation. > > BTW. How can it be self help, if it is a group? > > What happened back then I can repeat in a small way by using > isolation to listen to myself, then being exposed to people again. > Yesterday after a couple of weeks or three of only home and shop, > we had to go get Roses station wagon stranded in Des Moines. I > fixed it in a few minutes, thanked the folks at Quick Trip for > allowing Rose to leave it parked there for two days and we each > drove our cars home. The isolation was good, ending it was good. > You might call it a win/win situation. I do. > > > > > Subject: Re: steps > > Hi Judith, > > I really enjoyed reading your " rant " > > and thought it was great. I finally got angry enough myself to through out > > the dang AA measuring stick, and for that matter, anyone elses that attempts > > to tell me how I should think, feel, or act. > > > > AA's moral inventory is a crock. Especially when it is based on > > puritanical, > > shame-based concepts. You know that " isolation " concept that is bantered > > about in meetings....if you isolate and listen to your own thoughts really > > bad things are supposed to happen? I decided to take that to an extreme. My > > creativity just took off. > > After 3 or 4 days, I had finished a whole lot of beautiful pieces of > > claywork, taken a lot of naps, and could actually hear my own voice again. I > > periodically schedule these kind of personal retreats, and they allow me to > > find out what I want, not what other people are trying to tell me I should > > want. The worst thing that happens is that > > I come out of them invigorated, and I want to go have coffee or hang out > > with a friend > > just to talk about life. > > > > I am sick of the chronic, compulsive, self-improvement bs too. It's based > > on the whole belief there is something dreadfully and fundementally " WRONG " > > with a person. > > > > I advocate slothfullness too. It's one of my best qualities! I have a few > > friends who are living what I think, are " out of control " lives. Big houses, > > cars, hectic work schedules. Thier days off are even worse. They don't ever > > relax, and I don't think they can. It's not for me. I would rather have > > fewer posessions, and have my sanity. I have plenty of creative projects to > > keep me busy. If I want excitement, I can float in a cool lake in an > > inner-tube with a good novel. I can't believe I used to be an adrenaline > > junkie...a paramedic,a skydiver....maybe I am just getting old. Life seems > > pretty good these days, and I really like my own company. No steps, no > > forever scrutinizing whats wrong with me. > > Rebekah > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. > > Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 > > at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 wrote: > Hi Judith; Judith: Hey , how ya doin? wrote: > For quite a while I more or less apologized for AA, well it works for some it must be OK, and so on.> > > There are some folks on ARAA that sound real rational, till you ask them to explain the Disease of Alcoholism. They'll tell you about Gene studies etc, none of it true. They've been told this and believe it. Truth is no genetics studies in the field of alcoholism reasearch have been done since the 50's and those flopped, but were said to be inconclusive. They were conclusive OK they just didn't support the paymasters theory. I had a woman doing her dissertation in psychology tell me they had discovered the alcoholism gene. I asked What group or university? She didn't know. Yet she was doing a dissertation based on what she was told at a 12step center. She's in big trouble. Try to pin their facts and get a source, you'll find the " Source " heard it elsewhere, because there is no source, just one huge bullshit rumor taken as fact because it comes from AA.> Judith: I don't know if I mentioned it here or not, but one of the things I'm proudest of in my life is that I have a college degree. It took me 21 years to complete a 4-year degree One of the biggest barriers I faced was that in almost every class I took, some dearly held belief of mine was challenged. I grew up on a small farm which, although we were near a small town and the Twin Cities, was quite isolated when I was a kid in the 60s-70s. I think that probably 15 of the 21 years I spent in school, I was not even aware of what my dearly held beliefs were. I didn't realize they came from my environment: Catholic, Democrat, Working Class, Farmer, Minnesotan, woman, born in 1959...the list goes on. But I did know that sometimes the instructor said things that I just couldn't accept. The whole reason I tell this story is because...well, getting a degree did not make me an intelligent person. Genetics and parents who encouraged me to read, learn and think critically/creatively are the reasons I believe I am intelligent. But--and this is a big but --getting a degree did help me to understand what I believe, and why I believe it. Education also *forced* me to analyze and re-evaluate my beliefs. The U of Minnesota is a huge, diverse school, and there's no room for arrogance based on " well my beliefs are just MORALLY SUPERIOR to yours. " College doesn't make people smart, but it does force people to differentiate between faith and fact. I hope the woman writing her dissertation on the 12 steps gets that opportunity. wrote: > AA depends on disinformation to survive. One Doctor whos letter I believe Carol posted believed 2 out of 3 who go to an AA meeting attain 5 years sobriety, the real number is nearer 2 of 100. Disinformation keeps AA going, just as it made a way bigger military power out of Russia than they really were.> > > This disinformation is so broad based and has so many people spreading it, that stopping it at this point is virtually impossible. That don't mean you or I need believe it!> Judith: You may be right , but think about this. (If anyone is knowledgeable about Africa please correct me.) Mandela was in prison for something like 20 years. But now he's head of the African National Congress, right? Apartheid is gone, right? All of a sudden, the white guy in charge of South Africa (Botha?) let Mandela out of prison, and the entire government structure changed. I'm sure that my description is an oversimplification but my point is that large changes often happen in unexpected ways. In 1984, I could not find any alternative to AA. I went to AA, not imagining the harm it could do. But a friend of mine went through treatment before I did, she has remained abstinent and she really matured a lot because she did not do 12 step treatment. That was in Minnesota, home of Hazelden, in 1984, when there was a freakin Hangnails Anonymous!!!! And now, 15 years later, here we are. I just wrote yesterday that I hate AA, and no one has come to my house to beat me up yet So...we shall see. At least I know what I believe, why I believe it, and I'm not afraid to believe it anymore. I will say this in closing, , I find the stuff you write entertaining and inspirational. That's the serious truth. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 Hi Judith; For quite a while I more or less apologized for AA, well it works for some it must be OK, and so on. There are some folks on ARAA that sound real rational, till you ask them to explain the Disease of Alcoholism. They'll tell you about Gene studies etc, none of it true. They've been told this and believe it. Truth is no genetics studies in the field of alcoholism reasearch have been done since the 50's and those flopped, but were said to be inconclusive. They were conclusive OK they just didn't support the paymasters theory. I had a woman doing her dissertation in psychology tell me they had discovered the alcoholism gene. I asked What group or university? She didn't know. Yet she was doing a dissertation based on what she was told at a 12step center. She's in big trouble. Try to pin their facts and get a source, you'll find the " Source " heard it elsewhere, because there is no source, just one huge bullshit rumor taken as fact because it comes from AA. AA depends on disinformation to survive. One Doctor whos letter I believe Carol posted believed 2 out of 3 who go to an AA meeting attain 5 years sobriety, the real number is nearer 2 of 100. Disinformation keeps AA going, just as it made a way bigger military power out of Russia than they really were. This disinformation is so broad based and has so many people spreading it, that stopping it at this point is virtually impossible. That don't mean you or I need believe it! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 Hi : Wednesdays we meet at the local Salvation Army for our SMART meeting and tonight it was no different than the past Wednesdays of the past several months. No one showed except the two coordinators which are myself and another fellow. It seems A.A. and N.A. really have dug in here! I am not out to help the world; on a mission of sort, but I would like to see some of the youth in the community come to our meetings and talk about some of the issues that they struggle with not only with substance abuse but with living and coping issues as well. Sheridan does, however, have a big drug problem. We in SMART listen to each other and offer suggestions on how people can solve problems/conflicts for themselves. We use and ABC method with A the activating event, C the consequences, and B our belief about a particular activating event. Often, by challenging our belief system in terms of rational and irrational thought, we can surface some irrational thinking and change our thoughts and our behavior and suffer less. Sometime all that is needed for a positive change in ones life is to simply become aware that we have choices in many situations and by chosing the right choice for us, we avoid the bad consequences. Smart Rovery has an interesting site here on the net. The address is http://www.smartrecovery.org/smart.htm. Check it out. Again I would like tol express my continuing disappoitment about the lack of attendance in our group. If anyone has any suggestions on how we can get around the hardline 12 step faulty logic etc., please let me know. , you write good stuff. Keep it up! Later Re: steps > Hi Judith; > > For quite a while I more or less apologized for AA, well it works for > some it must be OK, and so on. > > There are some folks on ARAA that sound real rational, till you ask > them to explain the Disease of Alcoholism. They'll tell you about > Gene studies etc, none of it true. They've been told this and > believe it. Truth is no genetics studies in the field of alcoholism > reasearch have been done since the 50's and those flopped, but > were said to be inconclusive. They were conclusive OK they just > didn't support the paymasters theory. I had a woman doing her > dissertation in psychology tell me they had discovered the > alcoholism gene. I asked What group or university? She didn't > know. Yet she was doing a dissertation based on what she was > told at a 12step center. She's in big trouble. Try to pin their facts > and get a source, you'll find the " Source " heard it elsewhere, > because there is no source, just one huge bullshit rumor taken as > fact because it comes from AA. > > AA depends on disinformation to survive. One Doctor whos letter I > believe Carol posted believed 2 out of 3 who go to an AA meeting > attain 5 years sobriety, the real number is nearer 2 of 100. > Disinformation keeps AA going, just as it made a way bigger > military power out of Russia than they really were. > > This disinformation is so broad based and has so many people > spreading it, that stopping it at this point is virtually impossible. > That don't mean you or I need believe it! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req. > Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS99 > at checkout. http://clickhere./click/463 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 1999 Report Share Posted July 22, 1999 Hi Judith; Thank you. The sad part of the Africa thing is what Mandella did to the wife that lobbied him out of prison. Last I knew he had her under house arrest as a political prisoner, she may have been executed. For my money he's an asshole and botha beats him hollow. He may have sacrificed her to get his position, she became an embarrassment because people really wanted her not him. She did have the potential of keeping him from power and my understanding is that he is more oppressive than the old regime. Anyway he came out of prison with nothing and may now be in Ross Perots league. Pretty difficult to do that honestly as a civil servant. Winnie Mandella was the force, it's just a shame it was him she got out, it spelled her end. Just another abusive con man. If he quits cooperating with The United States, I'll bet he don't live six months. You might guess I have no truck for him. That woman worked for his release steadily and all over the world for around 20 years and he repays her by putting her in lockup. What a creep. I really believe after she discovered the change in him she might have opposed him, splitting the vote and leaving Botha in power. That appeared as I recall a possible scenario. Anyway her rights were stripped and she was under house arrest last I knew, but that was a few years ago and like I said she may be dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 1999 Report Share Posted July 22, 1999 Hi : I'm so sad to hear that there aren't more people going to SMART. The huge peer network of AA/NA is the ticket I'm sure. In a larger peer group, people can find folks they like. There's a larger selection, and they can help each other behind the scenes. Is the SMART meeting well advertised? They're trying to start one here too, and I've offered my support. It's hard to get the ball rolling. Also, I wonder if AA meetings are improving with the increased amount of objections on the internet & book stores. Apple > Hi : > > Wednesdays we meet at the local Salvation Army for our SMART meeting and > tonight it was no different than the past Wednesdays of the past several > months. No one showed except the two coordinators which are myself and > another fellow. It seems A.A. and N.A. really have dug in here! I am not > out to help the world; on a mission of sort, but I would like to see some of > the youth in the community come to our meetings and talk about some of the > issues that they struggle with not only with substance abuse but with living > and coping issues as well. Sheridan does, however, have a big drug problem. > We in SMART listen to each other and offer suggestions on how people can > solve problems/conflicts for themselves. We use and ABC method with A the > activating event, C the consequences, and B our belief about a particular > activating event. Often, by challenging our belief system in terms of > rational and irrational thought, we can surface some irrational thinking and > change our thoughts and our behavior and suffer less. Sometime all that is > needed for a positive change in ones life is to simply become aware that we > have choices in many situations and by chosing the right choice for us, we > avoid the bad consequences. Smart Rovery has an interesting site here on > the net. The address is http://www.smartrecovery.org/smart.htm. Check it > out. Again I would like tol express my continuing disappoitment about the > lack of attendance in our group. If anyone has any suggestions on how we > can get around the hardline 12 step faulty logic etc., please let me know. > , you write good stuff. Keep it up! Later > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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