Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 I warn you in advance: I'm venting here. Long winded, selfish, therapeutic venting. Read on at your own risk I've been re-reading 12 steps and 12 traditions. Focusing mainly on the 4th step, because I often find myself in a state of obsessive moral inventory; but finding that really all the steps deal with self-abasement. Re-reading this book gives me an idea of why I spend so much time looking for reasons to hate myself. How can a moral inventory not include some good things? I can easily look back over my life and pick out things I regret, things I'd do differently if foresight was as clear as hindsight; especially if I look back at my behavior from childhood through young adulthood. I also remember times when someone needed something, when I could make a person's life a little easier, and I chose to do so, for no reason other than the satisfaction of seeing that person's relief, even joy, at having someone help them solve a problem. Or even just *listen* while they talk, they obsess, they cry about a problem. Listen and not judge or criticize. But the way this book presents it, you're supposed to go over everything you've ever done with a fine-toothed comb, looking *only* for evidence of the negative. Listen to this, from the 6th step. " No one wants to be so proud that he is scorned as a braggart, nor so greedy that he is labeled a thief. No one wants to be angry enough to murder, lustful enough to rape, gluttonous enough to ruin his health...Of course, most human beings don't suffer these defects at these rock-bottom levels. " We who have escaped these extremes are apt to congratulate ourselves. Yet can we? After all, hasn't it been self-interest, pure and simple, that has enabled most of us to escape? Not much spiritual effort is involved in avoiding excesses which will bring us punishment anyway. But when we face up to the less violent aspects of these very same defects, then where do we stand? " So...it's not enough to give up a bad habit out of self-interest? " Not much spiritual effort is involved in avoiding excesses which will bring us punishment anyway " ...I can see the judgmental sneer accompanying this statement. I disagree. Changing extreme behavior takes the most effort of all, on all levels: spiritual, physical, intellectual, emotional. It is a HUGE accomplishment! Further, I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to change for any reason other than self-interest. Of all the people I ever meet, there is only ONE I can count on to be there WHENEVER I need her, and that is ME. The " less violent aspects " of our defects? In other words, things that don't really bother anyone? I'm sorry, I can't help thinking of Ned Flanders in The Simpsons: " Well, I'm meek, but I could probably stand to be meeker. " Listen to this: " And how often we work hard with no better motive than to be secure and slothful later on--only we call it 'retiring.' " OH! I see now! People who retire are SLOTHFUL. It's a SIN to retire?!?! One of the seven deadlies! What, are people supposed to work CONSTANTLY except when they're sleeping or eating or taking a shit? Excuse me-- sleeping, eating, and taking a shit are probably NOT good enough excuses to take a break!! Get your butt sewn shut, you SLOTHFUL SLACKER! Listen to books on tape while you sleep! If you don't it's a SIN and you'll go to HELL!! OK. I'm getting pretty angry here. At the end of Step 6, it says, " Many will at once ask, 'How can we accept the entire implication of Step 6? why--that is perfection!'...Only Step One, where we made the 100% admission we were powerless over alcohol, can be practiced with absolute perfection. The remaining 11 steps state perfect ideals. They are goals toward which we look, and the measuring sticks by which we estimate our progress. " I hereby officially and permanently, for the record and in writing, reject any stick of any kind offered to me by the 12 steps. They may call it a measuring stick, and probably offer it as such with good intentions, but for me it is just ends up being another stick with which to beat myself up. I can't live without being evaluated in some ways. My work needs to be accurate and delivered by deadline. My bills need to be paid. I need to adequately maintain my home and possessions, and my health. I can't go around beating people up because they irritate me. Try as I might, I just can't square these real-life criteria for adequate behavior against some imaginary perfect ideal. I reject perfection as a goal. My goal is to be good enough in this imperfect world. I congratulate people who have overcome extreme behavior through self- interest. I like imperfect people, and I like people who can laugh at their imperfections. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 > Hi Judith; Hi , always good to hear from you! > Very few people are well balanced and the 12steps play into that. It's real easy to prove it with about anyone, even students who have never drank at all.> dry drunks, eh > Just give them a blank sheet of paper and ask them to write down 5 bad traits that they have. Usually 5-10 minutes they'll be done. Tell them to flip the paper and write 5 good traits in themselves. Most will do well to think of 2. It's incredible, I've seen that trick repeated I don't really know how many times. I don't recall anyone zipping off five good traits.> I guess I don't really think of things that I do well as good traits. I don't really see myself as doing anything well. Instead, I always see what I'd like to do next. When it comes to how I treat people, I'm not so great to others if I feel badly myself. How well I treat others is in direct proportion to how I treat myself. When I'm depressed, I'm meaner and stupider than when I feel good. To avoid being depressed, I have to sleep enough and eat enough and HAVE ENOUGH FUN! The line between true selfishness and true altruism is blurred and sometimes nonexistent. Enlightened self interest, that's where it's at. > With that in mind, we're a set up for the negativism of the steps, it plays right into how we've been taught, don't brag, self interest is bad etc et al. However, I like what Dizzy Dean said " It ain't braggin' if you can do it! " > It ain't a lie if it's the truth Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 > Hi Judith; Hi , always good to hear from you! > Very few people are well balanced and the 12steps play into that. It's real easy to prove it with about anyone, even students who have never drank at all.> dry drunks, eh > Just give them a blank sheet of paper and ask them to write down 5 bad traits that they have. Usually 5-10 minutes they'll be done. Tell them to flip the paper and write 5 good traits in themselves. Most will do well to think of 2. It's incredible, I've seen that trick repeated I don't really know how many times. I don't recall anyone zipping off five good traits.> I guess I don't really think of things that I do well as good traits. I don't really see myself as doing anything well. Instead, I always see what I'd like to do next. When it comes to how I treat people, I'm not so great to others if I feel badly myself. How well I treat others is in direct proportion to how I treat myself. When I'm depressed, I'm meaner and stupider than when I feel good. To avoid being depressed, I have to sleep enough and eat enough and HAVE ENOUGH FUN! The line between true selfishness and true altruism is blurred and sometimes nonexistent. Enlightened self interest, that's where it's at. > With that in mind, we're a set up for the negativism of the steps, it plays right into how we've been taught, don't brag, self interest is bad etc et al. However, I like what Dizzy Dean said " It ain't braggin' if you can do it! " > It ain't a lie if it's the truth Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 > Hi Judith; Hi , always good to hear from you! > Very few people are well balanced and the 12steps play into that. It's real easy to prove it with about anyone, even students who have never drank at all.> dry drunks, eh > Just give them a blank sheet of paper and ask them to write down 5 bad traits that they have. Usually 5-10 minutes they'll be done. Tell them to flip the paper and write 5 good traits in themselves. Most will do well to think of 2. It's incredible, I've seen that trick repeated I don't really know how many times. I don't recall anyone zipping off five good traits.> I guess I don't really think of things that I do well as good traits. I don't really see myself as doing anything well. Instead, I always see what I'd like to do next. When it comes to how I treat people, I'm not so great to others if I feel badly myself. How well I treat others is in direct proportion to how I treat myself. When I'm depressed, I'm meaner and stupider than when I feel good. To avoid being depressed, I have to sleep enough and eat enough and HAVE ENOUGH FUN! The line between true selfishness and true altruism is blurred and sometimes nonexistent. Enlightened self interest, that's where it's at. > With that in mind, we're a set up for the negativism of the steps, it plays right into how we've been taught, don't brag, self interest is bad etc et al. However, I like what Dizzy Dean said " It ain't braggin' if you can do it! " > It ain't a lie if it's the truth Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 >Just think- there is an internet newsgroup called alt.recovery.from-12-steps. This is no accident! And although many angry steppers are trying to exert some control over it, they are bolting the stable door after the unicorn has bolted. > I read that group, but I can't bring myself to post. For me personally, I'd rather not deal with the inevitable angry confrontation. I'm not interested in taking anyone away from AA. I believe that no one chooses addiction, and I do consider AA an addiction *for some.* Identify and deal with the underlying cause and the addiction/compulsion will usually modify or cease altogether. What I find encouraging, when I have read (briefly) alt.recovery.aa and alt.recovery.na, and you even see this on arf12s, is actual debate about the same topics that we discuss here. Intelligent debate among people who believe in the 12 steps, and between 12 step believers and non-believers. There is some consensus. My take is that there is a lunatic fringe in *A, just as in any other group. And when government funding is given to organizations which advocate for the 12 step, disease model of addiction, then everything gets all screwed up because of competition for increasingly scarce funding. Even people in *A debate, for instance, about the ethics/legality of court ordering attendance at meetings. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 >Just think- there is an internet newsgroup called alt.recovery.from-12-steps. This is no accident! And although many angry steppers are trying to exert some control over it, they are bolting the stable door after the unicorn has bolted. > I read that group, but I can't bring myself to post. For me personally, I'd rather not deal with the inevitable angry confrontation. I'm not interested in taking anyone away from AA. I believe that no one chooses addiction, and I do consider AA an addiction *for some.* Identify and deal with the underlying cause and the addiction/compulsion will usually modify or cease altogether. What I find encouraging, when I have read (briefly) alt.recovery.aa and alt.recovery.na, and you even see this on arf12s, is actual debate about the same topics that we discuss here. Intelligent debate among people who believe in the 12 steps, and between 12 step believers and non-believers. There is some consensus. My take is that there is a lunatic fringe in *A, just as in any other group. And when government funding is given to organizations which advocate for the 12 step, disease model of addiction, then everything gets all screwed up because of competition for increasingly scarce funding. Even people in *A debate, for instance, about the ethics/legality of court ordering attendance at meetings. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 >Just think- there is an internet newsgroup called alt.recovery.from-12-steps. This is no accident! And although many angry steppers are trying to exert some control over it, they are bolting the stable door after the unicorn has bolted. > I read that group, but I can't bring myself to post. For me personally, I'd rather not deal with the inevitable angry confrontation. I'm not interested in taking anyone away from AA. I believe that no one chooses addiction, and I do consider AA an addiction *for some.* Identify and deal with the underlying cause and the addiction/compulsion will usually modify or cease altogether. What I find encouraging, when I have read (briefly) alt.recovery.aa and alt.recovery.na, and you even see this on arf12s, is actual debate about the same topics that we discuss here. Intelligent debate among people who believe in the 12 steps, and between 12 step believers and non-believers. There is some consensus. My take is that there is a lunatic fringe in *A, just as in any other group. And when government funding is given to organizations which advocate for the 12 step, disease model of addiction, then everything gets all screwed up because of competition for increasingly scarce funding. Even people in *A debate, for instance, about the ethics/legality of court ordering attendance at meetings. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Whan an excellent idea, I think I will start saving my pennies to do this in the near future... Judith >You know that " isolation " concept that is bantered about in meetings....if you isolate and listen to your own thoughts really bad things are supposed to happen? I decided to take that to an extreme. My creativity just took off. After 3 or 4 days, I had finished a whole lot of beautiful pieces of claywork, taken a lot of naps, and could actually hear my own voice again. I periodically schedule these kind of personal retreats, and they allow me to find out what I want, not what other people are trying to tell me I should want.> _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Whan an excellent idea, I think I will start saving my pennies to do this in the near future... Judith >You know that " isolation " concept that is bantered about in meetings....if you isolate and listen to your own thoughts really bad things are supposed to happen? I decided to take that to an extreme. My creativity just took off. After 3 or 4 days, I had finished a whole lot of beautiful pieces of claywork, taken a lot of naps, and could actually hear my own voice again. I periodically schedule these kind of personal retreats, and they allow me to find out what I want, not what other people are trying to tell me I should want.> _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Whan an excellent idea, I think I will start saving my pennies to do this in the near future... Judith >You know that " isolation " concept that is bantered about in meetings....if you isolate and listen to your own thoughts really bad things are supposed to happen? I decided to take that to an extreme. My creativity just took off. After 3 or 4 days, I had finished a whole lot of beautiful pieces of claywork, taken a lot of naps, and could actually hear my own voice again. I periodically schedule these kind of personal retreats, and they allow me to find out what I want, not what other people are trying to tell me I should want.> _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Hi Judith; Very few people are well balanced and the 12steps play into that. It's real easy to prove it with about anyone, even students who have never drank at all. Just give them a blank sheet of paper and ask them to write down 5 bad traits that they have. Usually 5-10 minutes they'll be done. Tell them to flip the paper and write 5 good traits in themselves. Most will do well to think of 2. It's incredible, I've seen that trick repeated I don't really know how many times. I don't recall anyone zipping off five good traits. With that in mind, we're a set up for the negativism of the steps, it plays right into how we've been taught, don't brag, self interest is bad etc et al. However, I like what Dizzy Dean said " It ain't braggin' if you can do it! " ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 At 07:19 18/07/99 PDT, you wrote: >I warn you in advance: I'm venting here. Long winded, selfish, therapeutic >venting. Read on at your own risk Actually it isn't a risk, it is healthy reading material! >I've been re-reading 12 steps and 12 traditions. > >So...it's not enough to give up a bad habit out of self-interest? " Not much >spiritual effort is involved in avoiding excesses which will bring us >punishment anyway " ...I can see the judgmental sneer accompanying this >statement. I disagree. Changing extreme behavior takes the most effort of >all, on all levels: spiritual, physical, intellectual, emotional. It is a >HUGE accomplishment! Further, I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to change for any >reason other than self-interest. Of all the people I ever meet, there is >only ONE I can count on to be there WHENEVER I need her, and that is ME. The thing is, the AA program takes a behaviour problem, a habit of alcohol dependance, and uses a totally artificial system to keep people stuck to the flypaper by telling them that they have other problems to deal with in order to stay stopped, and creating an illusory set of problems that are defined by religious guilt and shame. The treatment is to turn an alcohol addict into a religious addict ever running madly inside a non-existant treadmill of moral self-improvement. >The " less violent aspects " of our defects? In other words, things that >don't really bother anyone? Exactly. AA makes people deal with problems that aren't real problems at all, but are somethig that they got from the bible. >OK. I'm getting pretty angry here. At the end of Step 6, it says, " Many >will at once ask, 'How can we accept the entire implication of Step 6? >why--that is perfection!'...Only Step One, where we made the 100% admission >we were powerless over alcohol, can be practiced with absolute perfection. >The remaining 11 steps state perfect ideals. They are goals toward which we >look, and the measuring sticks by which we estimate our progress. " I think that a lot of people who need to stop drinking can just stop, and the rest they can sort out. Some need extra help- some, like me, need help with the thinking. But that help is available, and conforming unnecessarily to some religious ideal is not a way to get your shit together! It is a way to become a religious neurotic. This is why most people in 12 step programs _are_ religious neurotics! >I hereby officially and permanently, for the record and in writing, reject >any stick of any kind offered to me by the 12 steps. They may call it a >measuring stick, and probably offer it as such with good intentions, but for >me it is just ends up being another stick with which to beat myself up. The ideal use for the stick in question is to go and find an ex-sponsor and stick it up that persons' lecturing equipment. >I can't live without being evaluated in some ways. My work needs to be >accurate and delivered by deadline. My bills need to be paid. I need to >adequately maintain my home and possessions, and my health. I can't go >around beating people up because they irritate me. Try as I might, I just >can't square these real-life criteria for adequate behavior against some >imaginary perfect ideal. Exactly! You need to do what you need to do. Sticks be dammed. >I reject perfection as a goal. My goal is to be good enough in this >imperfect world. I congratulate people who have overcome extreme behavior >through self- interest. I like imperfect people, and I like people who can >laugh at their imperfections. >Judith Self-interest is good. It is good to realise that you need to be mentally healthy! Imperfection is neither good nor bad, it just is. We all have it, like skin. Giving people who are trying to eliminate a harmful habit a wagon load of non-existant problems to focus on fulfills basically one purpose- it keeps people negative, self-downing, and dependent on an unhealthy system instead of allowing them to regain some real mental health. I think AA and the other step programs will eventually- maybe some decades waway but then maybe not- be seen in the same way as Scientology is seen now. A cult organisation that is not much good for anything except taking up all your spare time, losing you your freinds, and screwing you up, and whatever they claim they can help you with you can get helped with better, quicker and cheaper elsewhere, and by people who are not trying to enslave your mind. Just think- there is an internet newsgroup called alt.recovery.from-12-steps. This is no accident! And although many angry steppers are trying to exert some control over it, they are bolting the stable door after the unicorn has bolted. Joe Berenbaum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 At 07:19 18/07/99 PDT, you wrote: >I warn you in advance: I'm venting here. Long winded, selfish, therapeutic >venting. Read on at your own risk Actually it isn't a risk, it is healthy reading material! >I've been re-reading 12 steps and 12 traditions. > >So...it's not enough to give up a bad habit out of self-interest? " Not much >spiritual effort is involved in avoiding excesses which will bring us >punishment anyway " ...I can see the judgmental sneer accompanying this >statement. I disagree. Changing extreme behavior takes the most effort of >all, on all levels: spiritual, physical, intellectual, emotional. It is a >HUGE accomplishment! Further, I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to change for any >reason other than self-interest. Of all the people I ever meet, there is >only ONE I can count on to be there WHENEVER I need her, and that is ME. The thing is, the AA program takes a behaviour problem, a habit of alcohol dependance, and uses a totally artificial system to keep people stuck to the flypaper by telling them that they have other problems to deal with in order to stay stopped, and creating an illusory set of problems that are defined by religious guilt and shame. The treatment is to turn an alcohol addict into a religious addict ever running madly inside a non-existant treadmill of moral self-improvement. >The " less violent aspects " of our defects? In other words, things that >don't really bother anyone? Exactly. AA makes people deal with problems that aren't real problems at all, but are somethig that they got from the bible. >OK. I'm getting pretty angry here. At the end of Step 6, it says, " Many >will at once ask, 'How can we accept the entire implication of Step 6? >why--that is perfection!'...Only Step One, where we made the 100% admission >we were powerless over alcohol, can be practiced with absolute perfection. >The remaining 11 steps state perfect ideals. They are goals toward which we >look, and the measuring sticks by which we estimate our progress. " I think that a lot of people who need to stop drinking can just stop, and the rest they can sort out. Some need extra help- some, like me, need help with the thinking. But that help is available, and conforming unnecessarily to some religious ideal is not a way to get your shit together! It is a way to become a religious neurotic. This is why most people in 12 step programs _are_ religious neurotics! >I hereby officially and permanently, for the record and in writing, reject >any stick of any kind offered to me by the 12 steps. They may call it a >measuring stick, and probably offer it as such with good intentions, but for >me it is just ends up being another stick with which to beat myself up. The ideal use for the stick in question is to go and find an ex-sponsor and stick it up that persons' lecturing equipment. >I can't live without being evaluated in some ways. My work needs to be >accurate and delivered by deadline. My bills need to be paid. I need to >adequately maintain my home and possessions, and my health. I can't go >around beating people up because they irritate me. Try as I might, I just >can't square these real-life criteria for adequate behavior against some >imaginary perfect ideal. Exactly! You need to do what you need to do. Sticks be dammed. >I reject perfection as a goal. My goal is to be good enough in this >imperfect world. I congratulate people who have overcome extreme behavior >through self- interest. I like imperfect people, and I like people who can >laugh at their imperfections. >Judith Self-interest is good. It is good to realise that you need to be mentally healthy! Imperfection is neither good nor bad, it just is. We all have it, like skin. Giving people who are trying to eliminate a harmful habit a wagon load of non-existant problems to focus on fulfills basically one purpose- it keeps people negative, self-downing, and dependent on an unhealthy system instead of allowing them to regain some real mental health. I think AA and the other step programs will eventually- maybe some decades waway but then maybe not- be seen in the same way as Scientology is seen now. A cult organisation that is not much good for anything except taking up all your spare time, losing you your freinds, and screwing you up, and whatever they claim they can help you with you can get helped with better, quicker and cheaper elsewhere, and by people who are not trying to enslave your mind. Just think- there is an internet newsgroup called alt.recovery.from-12-steps. This is no accident! And although many angry steppers are trying to exert some control over it, they are bolting the stable door after the unicorn has bolted. Joe Berenbaum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 At 07:19 18/07/99 PDT, you wrote: >I warn you in advance: I'm venting here. Long winded, selfish, therapeutic >venting. Read on at your own risk Actually it isn't a risk, it is healthy reading material! >I've been re-reading 12 steps and 12 traditions. > >So...it's not enough to give up a bad habit out of self-interest? " Not much >spiritual effort is involved in avoiding excesses which will bring us >punishment anyway " ...I can see the judgmental sneer accompanying this >statement. I disagree. Changing extreme behavior takes the most effort of >all, on all levels: spiritual, physical, intellectual, emotional. It is a >HUGE accomplishment! Further, I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to change for any >reason other than self-interest. Of all the people I ever meet, there is >only ONE I can count on to be there WHENEVER I need her, and that is ME. The thing is, the AA program takes a behaviour problem, a habit of alcohol dependance, and uses a totally artificial system to keep people stuck to the flypaper by telling them that they have other problems to deal with in order to stay stopped, and creating an illusory set of problems that are defined by religious guilt and shame. The treatment is to turn an alcohol addict into a religious addict ever running madly inside a non-existant treadmill of moral self-improvement. >The " less violent aspects " of our defects? In other words, things that >don't really bother anyone? Exactly. AA makes people deal with problems that aren't real problems at all, but are somethig that they got from the bible. >OK. I'm getting pretty angry here. At the end of Step 6, it says, " Many >will at once ask, 'How can we accept the entire implication of Step 6? >why--that is perfection!'...Only Step One, where we made the 100% admission >we were powerless over alcohol, can be practiced with absolute perfection. >The remaining 11 steps state perfect ideals. They are goals toward which we >look, and the measuring sticks by which we estimate our progress. " I think that a lot of people who need to stop drinking can just stop, and the rest they can sort out. Some need extra help- some, like me, need help with the thinking. But that help is available, and conforming unnecessarily to some religious ideal is not a way to get your shit together! It is a way to become a religious neurotic. This is why most people in 12 step programs _are_ religious neurotics! >I hereby officially and permanently, for the record and in writing, reject >any stick of any kind offered to me by the 12 steps. They may call it a >measuring stick, and probably offer it as such with good intentions, but for >me it is just ends up being another stick with which to beat myself up. The ideal use for the stick in question is to go and find an ex-sponsor and stick it up that persons' lecturing equipment. >I can't live without being evaluated in some ways. My work needs to be >accurate and delivered by deadline. My bills need to be paid. I need to >adequately maintain my home and possessions, and my health. I can't go >around beating people up because they irritate me. Try as I might, I just >can't square these real-life criteria for adequate behavior against some >imaginary perfect ideal. Exactly! You need to do what you need to do. Sticks be dammed. >I reject perfection as a goal. My goal is to be good enough in this >imperfect world. I congratulate people who have overcome extreme behavior >through self- interest. I like imperfect people, and I like people who can >laugh at their imperfections. >Judith Self-interest is good. It is good to realise that you need to be mentally healthy! Imperfection is neither good nor bad, it just is. We all have it, like skin. Giving people who are trying to eliminate a harmful habit a wagon load of non-existant problems to focus on fulfills basically one purpose- it keeps people negative, self-downing, and dependent on an unhealthy system instead of allowing them to regain some real mental health. I think AA and the other step programs will eventually- maybe some decades waway but then maybe not- be seen in the same way as Scientology is seen now. A cult organisation that is not much good for anything except taking up all your spare time, losing you your freinds, and screwing you up, and whatever they claim they can help you with you can get helped with better, quicker and cheaper elsewhere, and by people who are not trying to enslave your mind. Just think- there is an internet newsgroup called alt.recovery.from-12-steps. This is no accident! And although many angry steppers are trying to exert some control over it, they are bolting the stable door after the unicorn has bolted. Joe Berenbaum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Hi Judith, I really enjoyed reading your " rant " and thought it was great. I finally got angry enough myself to through out the dang AA measuring stick, and for that matter, anyone elses that attempts to tell me how I should think, feel, or act. AA's moral inventory is a crock. Especially when it is based on puritanical, shame-based concepts. You know that " isolation " concept that is bantered about in meetings....if you isolate and listen to your own thoughts really bad things are supposed to happen? I decided to take that to an extreme. My creativity just took off. After 3 or 4 days, I had finished a whole lot of beautiful pieces of claywork, taken a lot of naps, and could actually hear my own voice again. I periodically schedule these kind of personal retreats, and they allow me to find out what I want, not what other people are trying to tell me I should want. The worst thing that happens is that I come out of them invigorated, and I want to go have coffee or hang out with a friend just to talk about life. I am sick of the chronic, compulsive, self-improvement bs too. It's based on the whole belief there is something dreadfully and fundementally " WRONG " with a person. I advocate slothfullness too. It's one of my best qualities! I have a few friends who are living what I think, are " out of control " lives. Big houses, cars, hectic work schedules. Thier days off are even worse. They don't ever relax, and I don't think they can. It's not for me. I would rather have fewer posessions, and have my sanity. I have plenty of creative projects to keep me busy. If I want excitement, I can float in a cool lake in an inner-tube with a good novel. I can't believe I used to be an adrenaline junkie...a paramedic,a skydiver....maybe I am just getting old. Life seems pretty good these days, and I really like my own company. No steps, no forever scrutinizing whats wrong with me. Rebekah ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Hi Judith, I really enjoyed reading your " rant " and thought it was great. I finally got angry enough myself to through out the dang AA measuring stick, and for that matter, anyone elses that attempts to tell me how I should think, feel, or act. AA's moral inventory is a crock. Especially when it is based on puritanical, shame-based concepts. You know that " isolation " concept that is bantered about in meetings....if you isolate and listen to your own thoughts really bad things are supposed to happen? I decided to take that to an extreme. My creativity just took off. After 3 or 4 days, I had finished a whole lot of beautiful pieces of claywork, taken a lot of naps, and could actually hear my own voice again. I periodically schedule these kind of personal retreats, and they allow me to find out what I want, not what other people are trying to tell me I should want. The worst thing that happens is that I come out of them invigorated, and I want to go have coffee or hang out with a friend just to talk about life. I am sick of the chronic, compulsive, self-improvement bs too. It's based on the whole belief there is something dreadfully and fundementally " WRONG " with a person. I advocate slothfullness too. It's one of my best qualities! I have a few friends who are living what I think, are " out of control " lives. Big houses, cars, hectic work schedules. Thier days off are even worse. They don't ever relax, and I don't think they can. It's not for me. I would rather have fewer posessions, and have my sanity. I have plenty of creative projects to keep me busy. If I want excitement, I can float in a cool lake in an inner-tube with a good novel. I can't believe I used to be an adrenaline junkie...a paramedic,a skydiver....maybe I am just getting old. Life seems pretty good these days, and I really like my own company. No steps, no forever scrutinizing whats wrong with me. Rebekah ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Hi Joe. I would love to throw some contaminated missiles into that group. Where do I find " Uncle Sam " ? Bjørn Judith Stillwater wrote: > > >Just think- there is an internet newsgroup called alt.recovery.from-12-steps. This is no accident! And although many angry steppers are trying to exert some control over it, they are bolting the stable door after the unicorn has bolted. > I read that group, but I can't bring myself to post. For me personally, I'd rather not deal with the inevitable angry confrontation. I'm not interested in taking anyone away from AA. I believe that no one chooses addiction, and I do consider AA an addiction *for some.* Identify and deal with the underlying cause and the addiction/compulsion will usually modify or cease altogether. What I find encouraging, when I have read (briefly) alt.recovery.aa and alt.recovery.na, and you even see this on arf12s, is actual debate about the same topics that we discuss here. Intelligent debate among people who believe in the 12 steps, and between 12 step believers and non-believers. There is some consensus. My take is that there is a lunatic fringe in *A, just as in any other group. And when government funding is given to organizations which advocate for the 12 step, disease model of addiction, then everything gets all screwed up because of competition for increasingly scarce funding. Even people in *A debate, for instance, about the ethics/legality of court ordering attendance at meetings. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [click here] > Click Here! > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Hi Joe. I would love to throw some contaminated missiles into that group. Where do I find " Uncle Sam " ? Bjørn Judith Stillwater wrote: > > >Just think- there is an internet newsgroup called alt.recovery.from-12-steps. This is no accident! And although many angry steppers are trying to exert some control over it, they are bolting the stable door after the unicorn has bolted. > I read that group, but I can't bring myself to post. For me personally, I'd rather not deal with the inevitable angry confrontation. I'm not interested in taking anyone away from AA. I believe that no one chooses addiction, and I do consider AA an addiction *for some.* Identify and deal with the underlying cause and the addiction/compulsion will usually modify or cease altogether. What I find encouraging, when I have read (briefly) alt.recovery.aa and alt.recovery.na, and you even see this on arf12s, is actual debate about the same topics that we discuss here. Intelligent debate among people who believe in the 12 steps, and between 12 step believers and non-believers. There is some consensus. My take is that there is a lunatic fringe in *A, just as in any other group. And when government funding is given to organizations which advocate for the 12 step, disease model of addiction, then everything gets all screwed up because of competition for increasingly scarce funding. Even people in *A debate, for instance, about the ethics/legality of court ordering attendance at meetings. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [click here] > Click Here! > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Hi Joe. I would love to throw some contaminated missiles into that group. Where do I find " Uncle Sam " ? Bjørn Judith Stillwater wrote: > > >Just think- there is an internet newsgroup called alt.recovery.from-12-steps. This is no accident! And although many angry steppers are trying to exert some control over it, they are bolting the stable door after the unicorn has bolted. > I read that group, but I can't bring myself to post. For me personally, I'd rather not deal with the inevitable angry confrontation. I'm not interested in taking anyone away from AA. I believe that no one chooses addiction, and I do consider AA an addiction *for some.* Identify and deal with the underlying cause and the addiction/compulsion will usually modify or cease altogether. What I find encouraging, when I have read (briefly) alt.recovery.aa and alt.recovery.na, and you even see this on arf12s, is actual debate about the same topics that we discuss here. Intelligent debate among people who believe in the 12 steps, and between 12 step believers and non-believers. There is some consensus. My take is that there is a lunatic fringe in *A, just as in any other group. And when government funding is given to organizations which advocate for the 12 step, disease model of addiction, then everything gets all screwed up because of competition for increasingly scarce funding. Even people in *A debate, for instance, about the ethics/legality of court ordering attendance at meetings. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [click here] > Click Here! > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Hi Rebekah. You're quite a lady! Bjørn Rebekah wrote: > Hi Judith, > I really enjoyed reading your " rant " > and thought it was great. I finally got angry enough myself to through out > the dang AA measuring stick, and for that matter, anyone elses that attempts > to tell me how I should think, feel, or act. > > AA's moral inventory is a crock. Especially when it is based on > puritanical, > shame-based concepts. You know that " isolation " concept that is bantered > about in meetings....if you isolate and listen to your own thoughts really > bad things are supposed to happen? I decided to take that to an extreme. My > creativity just took off. > After 3 or 4 days, I had finished a whole lot of beautiful pieces of > claywork, taken a lot of naps, and could actually hear my own voice again. I > periodically schedule these kind of personal retreats, and they allow me to > find out what I want, not what other people are trying to tell me I should > want. The worst thing that happens is that > I come out of them invigorated, and I want to go have coffee or hang out > with a friend > just to talk about life. > > I am sick of the chronic, compulsive, self-improvement bs too. It's based > on the whole belief there is something dreadfully and fundementally " WRONG " > with a person. > > I advocate slothfullness too. It's one of my best qualities! I have a few > friends who are living what I think, are " out of control " lives. Big houses, > cars, hectic work schedules. Thier days off are even worse. They don't ever > relax, and I don't think they can. It's not for me. I would rather have > fewer posessions, and have my sanity. I have plenty of creative projects to > keep me busy. If I want excitement, I can float in a cool lake in an > inner-tube with a good novel. I can't believe I used to be an adrenaline > junkie...a paramedic,a skydiver....maybe I am just getting old. Life seems > pretty good these days, and I really like my own company. No steps, no > forever scrutinizing whats wrong with me. > Rebekah > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Hi Rebekah. You're quite a lady! Bjørn Rebekah wrote: > Hi Judith, > I really enjoyed reading your " rant " > and thought it was great. I finally got angry enough myself to through out > the dang AA measuring stick, and for that matter, anyone elses that attempts > to tell me how I should think, feel, or act. > > AA's moral inventory is a crock. Especially when it is based on > puritanical, > shame-based concepts. You know that " isolation " concept that is bantered > about in meetings....if you isolate and listen to your own thoughts really > bad things are supposed to happen? I decided to take that to an extreme. My > creativity just took off. > After 3 or 4 days, I had finished a whole lot of beautiful pieces of > claywork, taken a lot of naps, and could actually hear my own voice again. I > periodically schedule these kind of personal retreats, and they allow me to > find out what I want, not what other people are trying to tell me I should > want. The worst thing that happens is that > I come out of them invigorated, and I want to go have coffee or hang out > with a friend > just to talk about life. > > I am sick of the chronic, compulsive, self-improvement bs too. It's based > on the whole belief there is something dreadfully and fundementally " WRONG " > with a person. > > I advocate slothfullness too. It's one of my best qualities! I have a few > friends who are living what I think, are " out of control " lives. Big houses, > cars, hectic work schedules. Thier days off are even worse. They don't ever > relax, and I don't think they can. It's not for me. I would rather have > fewer posessions, and have my sanity. I have plenty of creative projects to > keep me busy. If I want excitement, I can float in a cool lake in an > inner-tube with a good novel. I can't believe I used to be an adrenaline > junkie...a paramedic,a skydiver....maybe I am just getting old. Life seems > pretty good these days, and I really like my own company. No steps, no > forever scrutinizing whats wrong with me. > Rebekah > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Hi Judith, Vent all you want. Bring on some more! No matter how self serving the rant, I always get a lot out of it. It's always good to get a new spin on why AA is such a bogus deal, and how their philosophy sets us up for a lot of fruitless mental masturbation. Judith Stillwater wrote: > > I warn you in advance: I'm venting here. Long winded, selfish, therapeutic > venting. Read on at your own risk > > I've been re-reading 12 steps and 12 traditions. Focusing mainly on the 4th > step, because I often find myself in a state of obsessive moral inventory; > but finding that really all the steps deal with self-abasement. Re-reading > this book gives me an idea of why I spend so much time looking for reasons > to hate myself. > > How can a moral inventory not include some good things? I can easily look > back over my life and pick out things I regret, things I'd do differently if > foresight was as clear as hindsight; especially if I look back at my > behavior from childhood through young adulthood. > > I also remember times when someone needed something, when I could make a > person's life a little easier, and I chose to do so, for no reason other > than the satisfaction of seeing that person's relief, even joy, at having > someone help them solve a problem. Or even just *listen* while they talk, > they obsess, they cry about a problem. Listen and not judge or criticize. > > But the way this book presents it, you're supposed to go over everything > you've ever done with a fine-toothed comb, looking *only* for evidence of > the negative. Listen to this, from the 6th step. > > " No one wants to be so proud that he is scorned as a braggart, nor so greedy > that he is labeled a thief. No one wants to be angry enough to murder, > lustful enough to rape, gluttonous enough to ruin his health...Of course, > most human beings don't suffer these defects at these rock-bottom levels. > > " We who have escaped these extremes are apt to congratulate ourselves. Yet > can we? After all, hasn't it been self-interest, pure and simple, that has > enabled most of us to escape? Not much spiritual effort is involved in > avoiding excesses which will bring us punishment anyway. But when we face > up to the less violent aspects of these very same defects, then where do we > stand? " > > So...it's not enough to give up a bad habit out of self-interest? " Not much > spiritual effort is involved in avoiding excesses which will bring us > punishment anyway " ...I can see the judgmental sneer accompanying this > statement. I disagree. Changing extreme behavior takes the most effort of > all, on all levels: spiritual, physical, intellectual, emotional. It is a > HUGE accomplishment! Further, I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to change for any > reason other than self-interest. Of all the people I ever meet, there is > only ONE I can count on to be there WHENEVER I need her, and that is ME. > > The " less violent aspects " of our defects? In other words, things that > don't really bother anyone? I'm sorry, I can't help thinking of Ned > Flanders in The Simpsons: " Well, I'm meek, but I could probably stand to be > meeker. " > > Listen to this: " And how often we work hard with no better motive than to > be secure and slothful later on--only we call it 'retiring.' " OH! I see > now! People who retire are SLOTHFUL. It's a SIN to retire?!?! One of the > seven deadlies! What, are people supposed to work CONSTANTLY except when > they're sleeping or eating or taking a shit? Excuse me-- sleeping, eating, > and taking a shit are probably NOT good enough excuses to take a break!! > Get your butt sewn shut, you SLOTHFUL SLACKER! Listen to books on tape > while you sleep! If you don't it's a SIN and you'll go to HELL!! > > OK. I'm getting pretty angry here. At the end of Step 6, it says, " Many > will at once ask, 'How can we accept the entire implication of Step 6? > why--that is perfection!'...Only Step One, where we made the 100% admission > we were powerless over alcohol, can be practiced with absolute perfection. > The remaining 11 steps state perfect ideals. They are goals toward which we > look, and the measuring sticks by which we estimate our progress. " > > I hereby officially and permanently, for the record and in writing, reject > any stick of any kind offered to me by the 12 steps. They may call it a > measuring stick, and probably offer it as such with good intentions, but for > me it is just ends up being another stick with which to beat myself up. > > I can't live without being evaluated in some ways. My work needs to be > accurate and delivered by deadline. My bills need to be paid. I need to > adequately maintain my home and possessions, and my health. I can't go > around beating people up because they irritate me. Try as I might, I just > can't square these real-life criteria for adequate behavior against some > imaginary perfect ideal. > > I reject perfection as a goal. My goal is to be good enough in this > imperfect world. I congratulate people who have overcome extreme behavior > through self- interest. I like imperfect people, and I like people who can > laugh at their imperfections. > > Judith > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members > Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon > .com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click/363 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Hi Judith, Vent all you want. Bring on some more! No matter how self serving the rant, I always get a lot out of it. It's always good to get a new spin on why AA is such a bogus deal, and how their philosophy sets us up for a lot of fruitless mental masturbation. Judith Stillwater wrote: > > I warn you in advance: I'm venting here. Long winded, selfish, therapeutic > venting. Read on at your own risk > > I've been re-reading 12 steps and 12 traditions. Focusing mainly on the 4th > step, because I often find myself in a state of obsessive moral inventory; > but finding that really all the steps deal with self-abasement. Re-reading > this book gives me an idea of why I spend so much time looking for reasons > to hate myself. > > How can a moral inventory not include some good things? I can easily look > back over my life and pick out things I regret, things I'd do differently if > foresight was as clear as hindsight; especially if I look back at my > behavior from childhood through young adulthood. > > I also remember times when someone needed something, when I could make a > person's life a little easier, and I chose to do so, for no reason other > than the satisfaction of seeing that person's relief, even joy, at having > someone help them solve a problem. Or even just *listen* while they talk, > they obsess, they cry about a problem. Listen and not judge or criticize. > > But the way this book presents it, you're supposed to go over everything > you've ever done with a fine-toothed comb, looking *only* for evidence of > the negative. Listen to this, from the 6th step. > > " No one wants to be so proud that he is scorned as a braggart, nor so greedy > that he is labeled a thief. No one wants to be angry enough to murder, > lustful enough to rape, gluttonous enough to ruin his health...Of course, > most human beings don't suffer these defects at these rock-bottom levels. > > " We who have escaped these extremes are apt to congratulate ourselves. Yet > can we? After all, hasn't it been self-interest, pure and simple, that has > enabled most of us to escape? Not much spiritual effort is involved in > avoiding excesses which will bring us punishment anyway. But when we face > up to the less violent aspects of these very same defects, then where do we > stand? " > > So...it's not enough to give up a bad habit out of self-interest? " Not much > spiritual effort is involved in avoiding excesses which will bring us > punishment anyway " ...I can see the judgmental sneer accompanying this > statement. I disagree. Changing extreme behavior takes the most effort of > all, on all levels: spiritual, physical, intellectual, emotional. It is a > HUGE accomplishment! Further, I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to change for any > reason other than self-interest. Of all the people I ever meet, there is > only ONE I can count on to be there WHENEVER I need her, and that is ME. > > The " less violent aspects " of our defects? In other words, things that > don't really bother anyone? I'm sorry, I can't help thinking of Ned > Flanders in The Simpsons: " Well, I'm meek, but I could probably stand to be > meeker. " > > Listen to this: " And how often we work hard with no better motive than to > be secure and slothful later on--only we call it 'retiring.' " OH! I see > now! People who retire are SLOTHFUL. It's a SIN to retire?!?! One of the > seven deadlies! What, are people supposed to work CONSTANTLY except when > they're sleeping or eating or taking a shit? Excuse me-- sleeping, eating, > and taking a shit are probably NOT good enough excuses to take a break!! > Get your butt sewn shut, you SLOTHFUL SLACKER! Listen to books on tape > while you sleep! If you don't it's a SIN and you'll go to HELL!! > > OK. I'm getting pretty angry here. At the end of Step 6, it says, " Many > will at once ask, 'How can we accept the entire implication of Step 6? > why--that is perfection!'...Only Step One, where we made the 100% admission > we were powerless over alcohol, can be practiced with absolute perfection. > The remaining 11 steps state perfect ideals. They are goals toward which we > look, and the measuring sticks by which we estimate our progress. " > > I hereby officially and permanently, for the record and in writing, reject > any stick of any kind offered to me by the 12 steps. They may call it a > measuring stick, and probably offer it as such with good intentions, but for > me it is just ends up being another stick with which to beat myself up. > > I can't live without being evaluated in some ways. My work needs to be > accurate and delivered by deadline. My bills need to be paid. I need to > adequately maintain my home and possessions, and my health. I can't go > around beating people up because they irritate me. Try as I might, I just > can't square these real-life criteria for adequate behavior against some > imaginary perfect ideal. > > I reject perfection as a goal. My goal is to be good enough in this > imperfect world. I congratulate people who have overcome extreme behavior > through self- interest. I like imperfect people, and I like people who can > laugh at their imperfections. > > Judith > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members > Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon > .com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click/363 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Hi Judith, Vent all you want. Bring on some more! No matter how self serving the rant, I always get a lot out of it. It's always good to get a new spin on why AA is such a bogus deal, and how their philosophy sets us up for a lot of fruitless mental masturbation. Judith Stillwater wrote: > > I warn you in advance: I'm venting here. Long winded, selfish, therapeutic > venting. Read on at your own risk > > I've been re-reading 12 steps and 12 traditions. Focusing mainly on the 4th > step, because I often find myself in a state of obsessive moral inventory; > but finding that really all the steps deal with self-abasement. Re-reading > this book gives me an idea of why I spend so much time looking for reasons > to hate myself. > > How can a moral inventory not include some good things? I can easily look > back over my life and pick out things I regret, things I'd do differently if > foresight was as clear as hindsight; especially if I look back at my > behavior from childhood through young adulthood. > > I also remember times when someone needed something, when I could make a > person's life a little easier, and I chose to do so, for no reason other > than the satisfaction of seeing that person's relief, even joy, at having > someone help them solve a problem. Or even just *listen* while they talk, > they obsess, they cry about a problem. Listen and not judge or criticize. > > But the way this book presents it, you're supposed to go over everything > you've ever done with a fine-toothed comb, looking *only* for evidence of > the negative. Listen to this, from the 6th step. > > " No one wants to be so proud that he is scorned as a braggart, nor so greedy > that he is labeled a thief. No one wants to be angry enough to murder, > lustful enough to rape, gluttonous enough to ruin his health...Of course, > most human beings don't suffer these defects at these rock-bottom levels. > > " We who have escaped these extremes are apt to congratulate ourselves. Yet > can we? After all, hasn't it been self-interest, pure and simple, that has > enabled most of us to escape? Not much spiritual effort is involved in > avoiding excesses which will bring us punishment anyway. But when we face > up to the less violent aspects of these very same defects, then where do we > stand? " > > So...it's not enough to give up a bad habit out of self-interest? " Not much > spiritual effort is involved in avoiding excesses which will bring us > punishment anyway " ...I can see the judgmental sneer accompanying this > statement. I disagree. Changing extreme behavior takes the most effort of > all, on all levels: spiritual, physical, intellectual, emotional. It is a > HUGE accomplishment! Further, I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to change for any > reason other than self-interest. Of all the people I ever meet, there is > only ONE I can count on to be there WHENEVER I need her, and that is ME. > > The " less violent aspects " of our defects? In other words, things that > don't really bother anyone? I'm sorry, I can't help thinking of Ned > Flanders in The Simpsons: " Well, I'm meek, but I could probably stand to be > meeker. " > > Listen to this: " And how often we work hard with no better motive than to > be secure and slothful later on--only we call it 'retiring.' " OH! I see > now! People who retire are SLOTHFUL. It's a SIN to retire?!?! One of the > seven deadlies! What, are people supposed to work CONSTANTLY except when > they're sleeping or eating or taking a shit? Excuse me-- sleeping, eating, > and taking a shit are probably NOT good enough excuses to take a break!! > Get your butt sewn shut, you SLOTHFUL SLACKER! Listen to books on tape > while you sleep! If you don't it's a SIN and you'll go to HELL!! > > OK. I'm getting pretty angry here. At the end of Step 6, it says, " Many > will at once ask, 'How can we accept the entire implication of Step 6? > why--that is perfection!'...Only Step One, where we made the 100% admission > we were powerless over alcohol, can be practiced with absolute perfection. > The remaining 11 steps state perfect ideals. They are goals toward which we > look, and the measuring sticks by which we estimate our progress. " > > I hereby officially and permanently, for the record and in writing, reject > any stick of any kind offered to me by the 12 steps. They may call it a > measuring stick, and probably offer it as such with good intentions, but for > me it is just ends up being another stick with which to beat myself up. > > I can't live without being evaluated in some ways. My work needs to be > accurate and delivered by deadline. My bills need to be paid. I need to > adequately maintain my home and possessions, and my health. I can't go > around beating people up because they irritate me. Try as I might, I just > can't square these real-life criteria for adequate behavior against some > imaginary perfect ideal. > > I reject perfection as a goal. My goal is to be good enough in this > imperfect world. I congratulate people who have overcome extreme behavior > through self- interest. I like imperfect people, and I like people who can > laugh at their imperfections. > > Judith > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members > Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon > .com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click/363 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Judith, you're right. The 12 & 12 is absolutely crazy. Go to ANY fourth step meeting. It's almost as if the people have an invisible cat o' nine tails in hand that they're beating themselves with. I too have laughed my ass off at the bit about retirement really being SLOTH in disguise. What a laugh! AA says flat out in one of its catchy phrases... " it takes 2 years to get your brain out of hock, and 3 more to unscramble it " . Well guess what... Bill W. had 3 years sober when he wrote the Big Book & 12 and 12. Apple ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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