Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 At 09:54 AM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote: >That's interesting about therapy. It always had the opposite effect for me. Speaking of which, I am having a lot of difficulty dealing lately and DON'T want to go back in to therapy right now, but Charlie's pushing. I get so tired of having to hash and re-hash with a new therapist; picking at old wounds and enlarging new ones....YUCK. I just want to coast for a while and see if the passage of time helps. , I think therapy can be a bit of a double-edged weapon- with the right person at the right time it can be a life-saver, but I have noticed that there are times (most times) when I do best without it and my intuition tells me that. For a long time I had the strange belief that because I had " issues " , I SHOULD be in therapy. But that is exactly the kind of irrational belief (the answers are all outside of me, other people know better than me about my problems, etc) and script that I was originally getting therapy for in the first place! I found that there are some very good reasons why someone might at times not want to be in therapy. There is a whole area of concern about therapy itself- a good book I read was " Against Therapy " by Geoffrey Masson- it confirmed for me all of the reservations I had had about therapy and therapists and made sense of my feelings about it for the first time. After reading that I could look at my negative feelngs about some of the therapy I had had (and some of the therapists that I knew) before and see that it was not " resistance " or " transference " -which is just the therapist reframing the clients experience in a way that fits the agenda of earning a living by being a therapist- I found I could have reservations and that they were significant and meaningful, and based in observation of the therapy situation that were accurate. For me it is largely about not having an external expert in my life any more. I've had too many of those in the past and distrusted my own intuitive sense too often and I now realise that the idea that I " need therapy " is in itself somewhat suspect- to me anyway.I use Psychology of Mind as a model for mental health much of the time now and that model is based on the existence of the inner guidance, wisdom and innate mental health of the individual. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Read alice miller? At 07:42 PM 6/30/99 +0100, you wrote: >At 09:54 AM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote: > >>That's interesting about therapy. It always had the opposite effect for >me. Speaking of which, I am having a lot of difficulty dealing lately and >DON'T want to go back in to therapy right now, but Charlie's pushing. I >get so tired of having to hash and re-hash with a new therapist; picking at >old wounds and enlarging new ones....YUCK. I just want to coast for a >while and see if the passage of time helps. > >, I think therapy can be a bit of a double-edged weapon- with the >right person at the right time it can be a life-saver, but I have noticed >that there are times (most times) when I do best without it and my >intuition tells me that. For a long time I had the strange belief that >because I had " issues " , I SHOULD be in therapy. But that is exactly the >kind of irrational belief (the answers are all outside of me, other people >know better than me about my problems, etc) and script that I was >originally getting therapy for in the first place! I found that there are >some very good reasons why someone might at times not want to be in >therapy. There is a whole area of concern about therapy itself- a good book >I read was " Against Therapy " by Geoffrey Masson- it confirmed for me all of >the reservations I had had about therapy and therapists and made sense of >my feelings about it for the first time. After reading that I could look at >my negative feelngs about some of the therapy I had had (and some of the >therapists that I knew) before and see that it was not " resistance " or > " transference " -which is just the therapist reframing the clients >experience in a way that fits the agenda of earning a living by being a >therapist- I found I could have reservations and that they were significant >and meaningful, and based in observation of the therapy situation that were >accurate. For me it is largely about not having an external expert in my >life any more. I've had too many of those in the past and distrusted my own >intuitive sense too often and I now realise that the idea that I " need >therapy " is in itself somewhat suspect- to me anyway.I use Psychology of >Mind as a model for mental health much of the time now and that model is >based on the existence of the inner guidance, wisdom and innate mental >health of the individual. > >Joe Berenbaum >mailto:joe-b@... > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >Try something new and discover more ways to save! >http://clickhere./click/381 > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Hey Joe; That's exactly why my doc discharged me after two years. She told me there comes a time that therapy becomes a dependence and I needed to use what I'd learned in real life to make my own real life decisions, victories and failures. She told me " Trust your feelings and intuition, or trust your gut if you will. I've had my share of miserable failures, but guess what? I survived them! I live, breathe, love, work and even have fun now and then. The fact that I abstain from alcohol is no longer the center of my life or even second, it's a habit after 8 years. The AA's that very occasionally come around are waiting for me to relapse from my " Drydrunk " , but they've been waiting for 6 years now, you'd think their patience would wear thin eventually. 8-) I still don't keep the stuff around nor do I go in Bars, but for me that too is habit. I go in Resturaunts where they serve alcohol at the table, but that's a whole different thing to me. I'm not obliged to smell it or deal with drunks. Usually those places serve mostly wines and some of them smell downright good. In therapy my goal was to be able to lead an ordinary life on my own. I'm getting closer everyday and to outside appearances already have it. I know I still have some demons. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 At 02:06 PM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote: >Read alice miller? Yes, I have read several of her books, but that was all several years ago now and for me that was part of my spell in the codependency-adult child thing which I later rejected as junk psychology. AM isn't junk psychology, she's right about many things including society's role in continuing widespread child abuse; I think that a lot of what she talks about is true, its real and it is what happens but there is something about her that bothers me as well and I can't quite put my finger on it. I seem to remember her books only really seem to offer one way out and that was long and painful therapy. I think that has become almost a pop psychology invisible assumption at least in some areas, that effective therapy is painful and long. A lot of people seem to think that if they are bnot suffering they are not getting better. To me this makes about as much sense as saying all effective medical treatment must be painful and bloody. We can do better than that now, at least in many cases. We have many tools to help people and they are not all automatically painful and longterm. This is what I reject in pop psychology, thse stupid assumptions about pain and progress- the " no pain, no gain " platitudes. Or as Bradshaw repeats (endlessly)- " You can't heal what you can't feel " - implication- whatever they did to you, you now have to feel it all over again before you get better, and preferably several times, weeping and trembling and using the box of tissues so thoughtfully provided in the therapy room by the caring professionals, bought out of your hard-earned therapy fees for the comfort and relief of all our many suffering clients... Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 At 02:06 PM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote: >Read alice miller? Yes, I have read several of her books, but that was all several years ago now and for me that was part of my spell in the codependency-adult child thing which I later rejected as junk psychology. AM isn't junk psychology, she's right about many things including society's role in continuing widespread child abuse; I think that a lot of what she talks about is true, its real and it is what happens but there is something about her that bothers me as well and I can't quite put my finger on it. I seem to remember her books only really seem to offer one way out and that was long and painful therapy. I think that has become almost a pop psychology invisible assumption at least in some areas, that effective therapy is painful and long. A lot of people seem to think that if they are bnot suffering they are not getting better. To me this makes about as much sense as saying all effective medical treatment must be painful and bloody. We can do better than that now, at least in many cases. We have many tools to help people and they are not all automatically painful and longterm. This is what I reject in pop psychology, thse stupid assumptions about pain and progress- the " no pain, no gain " platitudes. Or as Bradshaw repeats (endlessly)- " You can't heal what you can't feel " - implication- whatever they did to you, you now have to feel it all over again before you get better, and preferably several times, weeping and trembling and using the box of tissues so thoughtfully provided in the therapy room by the caring professionals, bought out of your hard-earned therapy fees for the comfort and relief of all our many suffering clients... Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 At 02:06 PM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote: >Read alice miller? Yes, I have read several of her books, but that was all several years ago now and for me that was part of my spell in the codependency-adult child thing which I later rejected as junk psychology. AM isn't junk psychology, she's right about many things including society's role in continuing widespread child abuse; I think that a lot of what she talks about is true, its real and it is what happens but there is something about her that bothers me as well and I can't quite put my finger on it. I seem to remember her books only really seem to offer one way out and that was long and painful therapy. I think that has become almost a pop psychology invisible assumption at least in some areas, that effective therapy is painful and long. A lot of people seem to think that if they are bnot suffering they are not getting better. To me this makes about as much sense as saying all effective medical treatment must be painful and bloody. We can do better than that now, at least in many cases. We have many tools to help people and they are not all automatically painful and longterm. This is what I reject in pop psychology, thse stupid assumptions about pain and progress- the " no pain, no gain " platitudes. Or as Bradshaw repeats (endlessly)- " You can't heal what you can't feel " - implication- whatever they did to you, you now have to feel it all over again before you get better, and preferably several times, weeping and trembling and using the box of tissues so thoughtfully provided in the therapy room by the caring professionals, bought out of your hard-earned therapy fees for the comfort and relief of all our many suffering clients... Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 hmmm..., i didn't know that about alice miller that it maintained the wounds. Even Thou Shalt Not Be Aware? I think the codependency is mostly a farce though some people fall prey to abusers. Most of those who call us at A & D are just complaining about a member of their family and their lack of control over them. how about At 01:13 AM 7/1/99 +0100, you wrote: >At 02:06 PM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Read alice miller? > >Yes, I have read several of her books, but that was all several years ago >now and for me that was part of my spell in the codependency-adult child >thing which I later rejected as junk psychology. AM isn't junk psychology, >she's right about many things including society's role in continuing >widespread child abuse; I think that a lot of what she talks about is true, >its real and it is what happens but there is something about her that >bothers me as well and I can't quite put my finger on it. I seem to >remember her books only really seem to offer one way out and that was long >and painful therapy. Should I read her then. Sounds better to view Emotional Intelligence than that. I believe solution-focused brief therapy is best for most people. kson school offers it in free and $ sessions. I think that has become almost a pop psychology >invisible assumption at least in some areas, that effective therapy is >painful and long. A lot of people seem to think that if they are bnot >suffering they are not getting better. To me this makes about as much sense >as saying all effective medical treatment must be painful and bloody. We >can do better than that now, at least in many cases. Back to implementing the " Feeling Good " techniques again I guess. Oh darn, and I was looking for someone else to do the work. We have many tools to >help people and they are not all automatically painful and longterm. This >is what I reject in pop psychology, thse stupid assumptions about pain and >progress- the " no pain, no gain " platitudes. I bought a book called the Myth of Neurosis and another called Psychobabble which would concur as I do. Or as Bradshaw Oh shoot me now. The whiners gallery in 3D! Have you seen him on PBS. We're all sick and the audience is loving him. Geech! In that whiney voice of his his. Shoot me now! repeats >(endlessly)- " You can't heal what you can't feel " - implication- whatever >they did to you, you now have to feel it all over again before you get >better, and preferably several times, weeping and trembling and using the >box of tissues so thoughtfully provided in the therapy room by the caring >professionals, bought out of your hard-earned therapy fees for the comfort >and relief of all our many suffering clients... > >Joe Berenbaum >mailto:joe-b@... > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Just Tell Us What You Want... >Respond.com - Shopping the World for You! >http://clickhere./click/390 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 hmmm..., i didn't know that about alice miller that it maintained the wounds. Even Thou Shalt Not Be Aware? I think the codependency is mostly a farce though some people fall prey to abusers. Most of those who call us at A & D are just complaining about a member of their family and their lack of control over them. how about At 01:13 AM 7/1/99 +0100, you wrote: >At 02:06 PM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Read alice miller? > >Yes, I have read several of her books, but that was all several years ago >now and for me that was part of my spell in the codependency-adult child >thing which I later rejected as junk psychology. AM isn't junk psychology, >she's right about many things including society's role in continuing >widespread child abuse; I think that a lot of what she talks about is true, >its real and it is what happens but there is something about her that >bothers me as well and I can't quite put my finger on it. I seem to >remember her books only really seem to offer one way out and that was long >and painful therapy. Should I read her then. Sounds better to view Emotional Intelligence than that. I believe solution-focused brief therapy is best for most people. kson school offers it in free and $ sessions. I think that has become almost a pop psychology >invisible assumption at least in some areas, that effective therapy is >painful and long. A lot of people seem to think that if they are bnot >suffering they are not getting better. To me this makes about as much sense >as saying all effective medical treatment must be painful and bloody. We >can do better than that now, at least in many cases. Back to implementing the " Feeling Good " techniques again I guess. Oh darn, and I was looking for someone else to do the work. We have many tools to >help people and they are not all automatically painful and longterm. This >is what I reject in pop psychology, thse stupid assumptions about pain and >progress- the " no pain, no gain " platitudes. I bought a book called the Myth of Neurosis and another called Psychobabble which would concur as I do. Or as Bradshaw Oh shoot me now. The whiners gallery in 3D! Have you seen him on PBS. We're all sick and the audience is loving him. Geech! In that whiney voice of his his. Shoot me now! repeats >(endlessly)- " You can't heal what you can't feel " - implication- whatever >they did to you, you now have to feel it all over again before you get >better, and preferably several times, weeping and trembling and using the >box of tissues so thoughtfully provided in the therapy room by the caring >professionals, bought out of your hard-earned therapy fees for the comfort >and relief of all our many suffering clients... > >Joe Berenbaum >mailto:joe-b@... > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Just Tell Us What You Want... >Respond.com - Shopping the World for You! >http://clickhere./click/390 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Where I live In Long Island NY, there is many half way house for the mentally challenged i.e schizophrenic people, or other serious mental handicaps. But they send them by the van load every night to AA meetings. Could someone fiqure out the logic behind that? Dual dx??? Since when did that ever become accepted in AA anyway? I thought if you were on meds with them then that was a problem to begin with... Some of those folks are so hopped up on thorazine that they just shuffle back and forth to the coffee pot all night. I believe that they just send these people their for a night out, but how can it be good for an already twisted mind to ingest the crap that is said at meetings?? would that not compound their problems? what if they think that they are not really sick? Does anyone agree with me that this is wrong? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Joe, I agree. I have had therapists who could not take my case because it affected them adversely and they could not be objective with my problems. I had to laugh out loud about the " ISSUES " -God, that takes me back. I have felt the same way. There are so many labels and " issues " that have come up for me that I thought I MUST deal with it or die. Not so. I thought I was a sex addict until I found my match; someone who ENJOYED it with the same frequency, instead of staying married to a man who was a closet homosexual and wore my underwear more than I did. I thought Of myself as being " codependent " until I realized I had never experienced real love before. I know how important another person can be, now. I always thought of myself as a " throwaway " until then, and I treated a lot of my relationships as such up to that point of realization. You were right on target about intuition. I guess that's what I'm feeling. Besides being unwilling to express deep feelings about my life to a stranger and taking the time to build up a rapport with the therapist, I JUST DON'T WANT TO! I'll take a look at that book-thanks! Love, wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5119 > At 09:54 AM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >That's interesting about therapy. It always had the opposite effect for > me. Speaking of which, I am having a lot of difficulty dealing lately and > DON'T want to go back in to therapy right now, but Charlie's pushing. I > get so tired of having to hash and re-hash with a new therapist; picking at > old wounds and enlarging new ones....YUCK. I just want to coast for a > while and see if the passage of time helps. > > , I think therapy can be a bit of a double-edged weapon- with the > right person at the right time it can be a life-saver, but I have noticed > that there are times (most times) when I do best without it and my > intuition tells me that. For a long time I had the strange belief that > because I had " issues " , I SHOULD be in therapy. But that is exactly the > kind of irrational belief (the answers are all outside of me, other people > know better than me about my problems, etc) and script that I was > originally getting therapy for in the first place! I found that there are > some very good reasons why someone might at times not want to be in > therapy. There is a whole area of concern about therapy itself- a good book > I read was " Against Therapy " by Geoffrey Masson- it confirmed for me all of > the reservations I had had about therapy and therapists and made sense of > my feelings about it for the first time. After reading that I could look at > my negative feelngs about some of the therapy I had had (and some of the > therapists that I knew) before and see that it was not " resistance " or > " transference " -which is just the therapist reframing the clients > experience in a way that fits the agenda of earning a living by being a > therapist- I found I could have reservations and that they were significant > and meaningful, and based in observation of the therapy situation that were > accurate. For me it is largely about not having an external expert in my > life any more. I've had too many of those in the past and distrusted my own > intuitive sense too often and I now realise that the idea that I " need > therapy " is in itself somewhat suspect- to me anyway.I use Psychology of > Mind as a model for mental health much of the time now and that model is > based on the existence of the inner guidance, wisdom and innate mental > health of the individual. > > Joe Berenbaum > mailto:joe-b@... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Hi..I just wanted to share a personal note on the value of therpepy...at the height of my addiction, I had a therepist who continued to see me week after week who never stopped telling me that I would get out from under my addiction. She actively helped me find a new way of life. She, for the most part, was a silent witness for the best of me, when much of my behavior was reflecting the worst of me. I am no longer in therepy. I feel that I need time to live and explore my values without the weekly microscope of therepy. Finally, I think it is important to find the right therepist if one chooses to go this route. And it is important to resect one's right to leave therepy, or to never start it. Lastly, it is sad that a therepist in our day is often a substitute for friends and family, but sometimes this is just simply the case. Thanks, ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 I think it it is very sad, if not criminal, that AA is considered a cheap thereputic activity for those with mental illness. I'm sure that advactates for the mentally ill could bring this one to court. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 This post is wonderful....WOW, I LIKE it..... >Joe, I agree. >I have had therapists who could not take my case because it affected them >adversely and they could not be objective with my problems. > >I had to laugh out loud about the " ISSUES " -God, that takes me back. I have >felt the same way. There are so many labels and " issues " that have come up >for me that I thought I MUST deal with it or die. Not so. I thought I was >a sex addict until I found my a man who was a closet homosexual and wore my >underwear more than I did. I thought Of myself as being " codependent " >until I realized I had never experienced real love before. I know how >important another person can be, now. I always thought of myself as a > " throwaway " until then, and I treated a lot of my relationships as such up >to that point of realization. > >You were right on target about intuition. I guess that's what I'm feeling. > Besides being unwilling to express deep feelings about my life to a >stranger and taking the time to build up a rapport with the therapist, I >JUST DON'T WANT TO! > >I'll take a look at that book-thanks! eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 O.K. maybe I reacted too quickly in my post about AA and mental illnes. I have seen institutions do it my area, however, and I still think that is wrong. Also, I think that the churches are not doing enough to assist caregivers. There needs to be alot more education in this area. Finally, I have seen some abuse, intenetional and non intentional of persons with mental illness at AA meetings, so it is really a mixed bag. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Well said, Joe! wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5146 > At 02:06 PM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Read alice miller? > > Yes, I have read several of her books, but that was all several years ago > now and for me that was part of my spell in the codependency-adult child > thing which I later rejected as junk psychology. AM isn't junk psychology, > she's right about many things including society's role in continuing > widespread child abuse; I think that a lot of what she talks about is true, > its real and it is what happens but there is something about her that > bothers me as well and I can't quite put my finger on it. I seem to > remember her books only really seem to offer one way out and that was long > and painful therapy. I think that has become almost a pop psychology > invisible assumption at least in some areas, that effective therapy is > painful and long. A lot of people seem to think that if they are bnot > suffering they are not getting better. To me this makes about as much sense > as saying all effective medical treatment must be painful and bloody. We > can do better than that now, at least in many cases. We have many tools to > help people and they are not all automatically painful and longterm. This > is what I reject in pop psychology, thse stupid assumptions about pain and > progress- the " no pain, no gain " platitudes. Or as Bradshaw repeats > (endlessly)- " You can't heal what you can't feel " - implication- whatever > they did to you, you now have to feel it all over again before you get > better, and preferably several times, weeping and trembling and using the > box of tissues so thoughtfully provided in the therapy room by the caring > professionals, bought out of your hard-earned therapy fees for the comfort > and relief of all our many suffering clients... > > Joe Berenbaum > mailto:joe-b@... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 It's wrong. Many years ago, I chaired an AA group a a state mental facility. It was a lost cause. After a couple of years, the group was disbanded. It was interesting, though. I had Jesus at my table one night. I think back on it and it was a night out with cookies and coffee and a change of scenery. I never saw any of them at any other AA meetings. I thought same way about the medication and the maladies; how much would they understand anyway? That's why I gave up on it. I know it didn't hurt them and they probably didn't understand what was even going on. By the time they get to a state hospital, the chances of them living a life anything close to normal is out of the questions for most of them. In the case you're talking about, it's probably a free night for the caregivers! wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5154 > Where I live In Long Island NY, there is many half way house for the mentally > challenged i.e schizophrenic people, or other serious mental handicaps. But > they send them by the van load every night to AA meetings. Could someone > fiqure out the logic behind that? Dual dx??? Since when did that ever become > accepted in AA anyway? I thought if you were on meds with them then that was > a problem to begin with... Some of those folks are so hopped up on thorazine > that they just shuffle back and forth to the coffee pot all night. I believe > that they just send these people their for a night out, but how can it be > good for an already twisted mind to ingest the crap that is said at > meetings?? would that not compound their problems? what if they think that > they are not really sick? Does anyone agree with me that this is wrong? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 At 07:12 AM 7/1/99 -0700, you wrote: >It's wrong. Many years ago, I chaired an AA group a a state mental facility. It was a lost cause. After a couple of years, the group was disbanded. It was interesting, though. I had Jesus at my table one night. The problem with people who think they are Jesus is that one of these days, one of them might be the Real Thing and we wouldn't know. Typical trick, turn up in the guise of a mental patient. I don't know, you can't even trust anyone these days... Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Actually his full name was Jesus ....(JK!!!!) Do you think He might come back as a Mexican in a low-rider????? What would his driver's license have as his date of birth??? 12/25/yearofmybirth???!!! wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5162 > At 07:12 AM 7/1/99 -0700, you wrote: > >It's wrong. Many years ago, I chaired an AA group a a state mental > facility. It was a lost cause. After a couple of years, the group was > disbanded. It was interesting, though. I had Jesus at my table one night. > > The problem with people who think they are Jesus is that one of these days, > one of them might be the Real Thing and we wouldn't know. Typical trick, > turn up in the guise of a mental patient. I don't know, you can't even > trust anyone these days... > > Joe Berenbaum > mailto:joe-b@... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 , This list absolutely amazes me. Yes, they teach us we are *insane* but if we go for help, we are not " working the program " I also just read your other post, where you thought you had reacted too quickly on this one. No , I do not think you reacted to quickly. It is a very provoking thought. Yesterday it was mentioned that when a member in AA tells me I shouldn't be on anti-depressents, that member is practising medicine without a license. Both of these thought really open up my eyes to the medical aspect of AA. Where AA does play doctor. Hmm....I like this. And it gives me some very SOLID words to say the next time I am " put in my place " by the AA gods. I think one thing that irritates me is, they say, " take what you need and leave the rest " and that this is a program of suggestions only. Then they turn around and say, " but if you don't take our suggestions, you will suffer for it " ... Alas, I am starting to feel guilty again, as if I am attacking AA...so I will close for now:) <but, I will be back> >I think it it is very sad, if not criminal, that AA is considered a cheap >thereputic activity for those with mental illness. I'm sure that advactates >for the mentally ill could bring this one to court. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >Try something new and discover more ways to save! >http://clickhere./click/381 > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 -all who are at AA meetings are mentally ill in one way or another! Mixed bag-OH YES!!! Churches-forget them. They don't reach out like they used to. People are getting too selfish. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5167 > O.K. maybe I reacted too quickly in my post about AA and mental illnes. I > have seen institutions do it my area, however, and I still think that is > wrong. Also, I think that the churches are not doing enough to assist > caregivers. There needs to be alot more education in this area. > Finally, I have seen some abuse, intenetional and non intentional of persons > with mental illness at AA meetings, so it is really a mixed bag. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Joe. It's this story in one of Dostojevskis books. I think it's " The Karamasov Brothers " (Translated from Danish). (Yul Brynner was in the movie, but they missed this story.) It's something like this: Jesus returned to Earth in the middle of the " Spanish Inquisition " . He told the people that he had come back. He got arrested, and the head of the system came to interrogate him. After a while this man of the church got convinced about 's right identity. Then he said: " I'm convinced that you really are Jesus, but you see! We've got a good working system here, and you are going to spoil it all. Therefore I will execute you tomorrow. " Bjørn ps. The problem might not be 'not being recognized'. Joe Berenbaum wrote: > > The problem with people who think they are Jesus is that one of these days, one of them might be the Real Thing and we wouldn't know. Typical trick, turn up in the guise of a mental patient. I don't know, you can't even trust anyone these days... Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > eGroups Spotlight: [eGroups.com] Egg and Egg Products - There's more to eggs than eating them for breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you. /group/eggmen/info.html > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Joe. It's this story in one of Dostojevskis books. I think it's " The Karamasov Brothers " (Translated from Danish). (Yul Brynner was in the movie, but they missed this story.) It's something like this: Jesus returned to Earth in the middle of the " Spanish Inquisition " . He told the people that he had come back. He got arrested, and the head of the system came to interrogate him. After a while this man of the church got convinced about 's right identity. Then he said: " I'm convinced that you really are Jesus, but you see! We've got a good working system here, and you are going to spoil it all. Therefore I will execute you tomorrow. " Bjørn ps. The problem might not be 'not being recognized'. Joe Berenbaum wrote: > > The problem with people who think they are Jesus is that one of these days, one of them might be the Real Thing and we wouldn't know. Typical trick, turn up in the guise of a mental patient. I don't know, you can't even trust anyone these days... Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > eGroups Spotlight: [eGroups.com] Egg and Egg Products - There's more to eggs than eating them for breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you. /group/eggmen/info.html > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 It is wrong, but in a way it is a step forward. When I was in treatment, counselors refused to admit a dual dx could even exist. Years later, treatment centers sprang up that purported to treat dual diagnoses, but didn't. I've know a couple people who went to a nearby treatment center because they needn't more treatment than a straightforward treatment center (i.e. totally AA based) could give them. One was a woman who self-mutilated. You should have seen her arms. They were covered with scars and cuts in various stages of healing. The center refused at first to treat her with anything with AA. She was accused of " trying to run her own program " even though she had been sent there from a treatment center that didn't treat such problems and sent her with the recommendation that she be treated for self-mutilation. Now I believe dual diagnoses are pretty well acknowledged. The next step will be for people to leave out the A/D aspect of the diagnosis and admit that the presenting problem is the one that AA's generally consider secondary. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5154 > Where I live In Long Island NY, there is many half way house for the mentally > challenged i.e schizophrenic people, or other serious mental handicaps. But > they send them by the van load every night to AA meetings. Could someone > fiqure out the logic behind that? Dual dx??? Since when did that ever become > accepted in AA anyway? I thought if you were on meds with them then that was > a problem to begin with... Some of those folks are so hopped up on thorazine > that they just shuffle back and forth to the coffee pot all night. I believe > that they just send these people their for a night out, but how can it be > good for an already twisted mind to ingest the crap that is said at > meetings?? would that not compound their problems? what if they think that > they are not really sick? Does anyone agree with me that this is wrong? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 HI All A friend of mine who has been in psych hospital in LOndon told me that if you werent allowed out and were freaking with boredom theyd suggest you went to an AA meeting there, even if you had no problem with drink. P. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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