Pod ppl everywhere

[Guest guest]

At 02:38 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote:

>When I entered therapy for the borderline, and immediately was placed on

anti-depressents, I was, " not working my program " ...for if I was working

it, I would not NEED anti-depressents.

And I suppose of someone needed a cornea graft or a heart bypass, if they

were truly working it they would not need it. I amazed every single time I

hear this nonsense. This is in effect saying that there are no medical

conditions affecting the mind that really require medication, that the

religion in the program is better than a real doctor's help, even in

medically diagnosed depression. It is amazing, arrogant, seriously

dangerous and totally asinine. And it is practising medicine without a

license.

Joe Berenbaum

mailto:joe-b@...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

At 02:38 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote:

>When I entered therapy for the borderline, and immediately was placed on

anti-depressents, I was, " not working my program " ...for if I was working

it, I would not NEED anti-depressents.

And I suppose of someone needed a cornea graft or a heart bypass, if they

were truly working it they would not need it. I amazed every single time I

hear this nonsense. This is in effect saying that there are no medical

conditions affecting the mind that really require medication, that the

religion in the program is better than a real doctor's help, even in

medically diagnosed depression. It is amazing, arrogant, seriously

dangerous and totally asinine. And it is practising medicine without a

license.

Joe Berenbaum

mailto:joe-b@...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

At 02:38 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote:

>When I entered therapy for the borderline, and immediately was placed on

anti-depressents, I was, " not working my program " ...for if I was working

it, I would not NEED anti-depressents.

And I suppose of someone needed a cornea graft or a heart bypass, if they

were truly working it they would not need it. I amazed every single time I

hear this nonsense. This is in effect saying that there are no medical

conditions affecting the mind that really require medication, that the

religion in the program is better than a real doctor's help, even in

medically diagnosed depression. It is amazing, arrogant, seriously

dangerous and totally asinine. And it is practising medicine without a

license.

Joe Berenbaum

mailto:joe-b@...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi ;

I like you also. You need to do what's best for you as I do for me.

One thing I've kept from AA is " When we were wrong promptly

admitted it " I realize that's only half, but it's the half I need. I still

have a picture of a cat with my motto on it " I have my faults but

being wrong isn't one of them! " 8-)

I've always hated to be wrong, so it's a good exercise when I am, to

admit it. I didn't bounce Theresa for coming to your aid, but rather

for implying you were weak. I don't believe that and when folks told

me I was weak it damaged my confidence and stole some of my

power of self determination.

Unlike AA folks, Theresa is trying to be your friend in my opinion.

One doesn't throw away folks out of hand who are willing to make

that effort.

I also am on other lists, mostly dealing with abuse.

We are adults who want to get a measure of wellness and have

some fun along the way. Nothing insane or even questionable

about that. I can be bullheaded and am opinionated, but those

things have pulled me through some tough spots, they've also got

me in trouble. Most swords cut two ways.

You handle me easily enough in a debate and I don't consider

myself a pushover. Here you have some time to compose your

thoughts and make cogent arguments, unlike trying to stand in

front of a group and wing it. No one should ever be forced to do

that against their wishes. I can do it but I'm nearly 30 years older

than you are and learned in my late 30's. If from my experience I

gave one piece of advice it would be " Don't compare yourself with

anyone. " Our needs may be similar, but how we meet them may

well be unque and many methods work. I can speak to a crowd,

but cannot tolerate for long shopping in a crowd. I begin getting

angry with folks reaching around me or bumping into me. I get to

where I bump them hard with an elbow and then gush all over them

how it was an accident. I think that's called Passive/Agressive

behavior. Usually I just leave the store before that happens.

Well now that " Dang old Pete " has hammered the AA belief

system, your own will come to the forefront. Getting my own

undistorted belief system in place has taken time. Decisions that

used to be knee jerk reactions now require thought. When

someone tells me I'm wrong, it doesn't mean they are

automatically correct like it used to. Now I take a second look.

Also it is possible for me to be wrong, without the accusing party

being correct, we can both be wrong with correct somewhere in

between. It's rather like paraphrasing the bible, how about this

one, I mean only humor. " The race is not to the swift nor the battle

to the strong, but that's the way to bet. " 8-) Without the cynicism

that's my favorite quotation. If memory serves it's Eccl. 9-5, or 9-11

can't remember which. One is that and the other is Money

answereth all things.

Well I've written another book and it's near suppertime.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi ;

I like you also. You need to do what's best for you as I do for me.

One thing I've kept from AA is " When we were wrong promptly

admitted it " I realize that's only half, but it's the half I need. I still

have a picture of a cat with my motto on it " I have my faults but

being wrong isn't one of them! " 8-)

I've always hated to be wrong, so it's a good exercise when I am, to

admit it. I didn't bounce Theresa for coming to your aid, but rather

for implying you were weak. I don't believe that and when folks told

me I was weak it damaged my confidence and stole some of my

power of self determination.

Unlike AA folks, Theresa is trying to be your friend in my opinion.

One doesn't throw away folks out of hand who are willing to make

that effort.

I also am on other lists, mostly dealing with abuse.

We are adults who want to get a measure of wellness and have

some fun along the way. Nothing insane or even questionable

about that. I can be bullheaded and am opinionated, but those

things have pulled me through some tough spots, they've also got

me in trouble. Most swords cut two ways.

You handle me easily enough in a debate and I don't consider

myself a pushover. Here you have some time to compose your

thoughts and make cogent arguments, unlike trying to stand in

front of a group and wing it. No one should ever be forced to do

that against their wishes. I can do it but I'm nearly 30 years older

than you are and learned in my late 30's. If from my experience I

gave one piece of advice it would be " Don't compare yourself with

anyone. " Our needs may be similar, but how we meet them may

well be unque and many methods work. I can speak to a crowd,

but cannot tolerate for long shopping in a crowd. I begin getting

angry with folks reaching around me or bumping into me. I get to

where I bump them hard with an elbow and then gush all over them

how it was an accident. I think that's called Passive/Agressive

behavior. Usually I just leave the store before that happens.

Well now that " Dang old Pete " has hammered the AA belief

system, your own will come to the forefront. Getting my own

undistorted belief system in place has taken time. Decisions that

used to be knee jerk reactions now require thought. When

someone tells me I'm wrong, it doesn't mean they are

automatically correct like it used to. Now I take a second look.

Also it is possible for me to be wrong, without the accusing party

being correct, we can both be wrong with correct somewhere in

between. It's rather like paraphrasing the bible, how about this

one, I mean only humor. " The race is not to the swift nor the battle

to the strong, but that's the way to bet. " 8-) Without the cynicism

that's my favorite quotation. If memory serves it's Eccl. 9-5, or 9-11

can't remember which. One is that and the other is Money

answereth all things.

Well I've written another book and it's near suppertime.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi ;

I like you also. You need to do what's best for you as I do for me.

One thing I've kept from AA is " When we were wrong promptly

admitted it " I realize that's only half, but it's the half I need. I still

have a picture of a cat with my motto on it " I have my faults but

being wrong isn't one of them! " 8-)

I've always hated to be wrong, so it's a good exercise when I am, to

admit it. I didn't bounce Theresa for coming to your aid, but rather

for implying you were weak. I don't believe that and when folks told

me I was weak it damaged my confidence and stole some of my

power of self determination.

Unlike AA folks, Theresa is trying to be your friend in my opinion.

One doesn't throw away folks out of hand who are willing to make

that effort.

I also am on other lists, mostly dealing with abuse.

We are adults who want to get a measure of wellness and have

some fun along the way. Nothing insane or even questionable

about that. I can be bullheaded and am opinionated, but those

things have pulled me through some tough spots, they've also got

me in trouble. Most swords cut two ways.

You handle me easily enough in a debate and I don't consider

myself a pushover. Here you have some time to compose your

thoughts and make cogent arguments, unlike trying to stand in

front of a group and wing it. No one should ever be forced to do

that against their wishes. I can do it but I'm nearly 30 years older

than you are and learned in my late 30's. If from my experience I

gave one piece of advice it would be " Don't compare yourself with

anyone. " Our needs may be similar, but how we meet them may

well be unque and many methods work. I can speak to a crowd,

but cannot tolerate for long shopping in a crowd. I begin getting

angry with folks reaching around me or bumping into me. I get to

where I bump them hard with an elbow and then gush all over them

how it was an accident. I think that's called Passive/Agressive

behavior. Usually I just leave the store before that happens.

Well now that " Dang old Pete " has hammered the AA belief

system, your own will come to the forefront. Getting my own

undistorted belief system in place has taken time. Decisions that

used to be knee jerk reactions now require thought. When

someone tells me I'm wrong, it doesn't mean they are

automatically correct like it used to. Now I take a second look.

Also it is possible for me to be wrong, without the accusing party

being correct, we can both be wrong with correct somewhere in

between. It's rather like paraphrasing the bible, how about this

one, I mean only humor. " The race is not to the swift nor the battle

to the strong, but that's the way to bet. " 8-) Without the cynicism

that's my favorite quotation. If memory serves it's Eccl. 9-5, or 9-11

can't remember which. One is that and the other is Money

answereth all things.

Well I've written another book and it's near suppertime.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi Again ;

Just read your other post.

So I will tell you what happened that was a real turning point in my

therapy. It could hold no meaning for you, but it did for me.

Remember I was about three months into therapy and 30 years in

AA.

I was explaining the disease concept to Dr Laing and explaining

how different that made we alcoholics and so on.

She said " I see. Why don't you let me tell you a story? " I said

sure. She began:

Once upon a time there was a Pookah(That's a fairy who can shift

his shape and turn into a horse) He fell in love with a human girl

and asked her to marry him. The girl was a good Catholic girl and

she told him she would marry him if he became a Catholic. The

Pookah agreed and went to the village priest to begin his lessons.

One day while studying the Ten Comandments, The Pookah turned

to the priest and said " Sir Father, ten is a very great number, what

if I should forget one? " The Priest replied " Then you will have to

suffer with the rest of us. "

The message was crystal clear to me. Being an alcoholic made

no difference, even if I was different it was immaterial, I would suffer

like everyone else. The other side of that is " No More " than

anyone else. Her story called me a responsible adult, no different

than other people in what I needed to do or how I needed to

conduct myself. That day stands as the turning point in my

attitude and conduct. It was my real beginning.

Hope it helps you

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi Again ;

Just read your other post.

So I will tell you what happened that was a real turning point in my

therapy. It could hold no meaning for you, but it did for me.

Remember I was about three months into therapy and 30 years in

AA.

I was explaining the disease concept to Dr Laing and explaining

how different that made we alcoholics and so on.

She said " I see. Why don't you let me tell you a story? " I said

sure. She began:

Once upon a time there was a Pookah(That's a fairy who can shift

his shape and turn into a horse) He fell in love with a human girl

and asked her to marry him. The girl was a good Catholic girl and

she told him she would marry him if he became a Catholic. The

Pookah agreed and went to the village priest to begin his lessons.

One day while studying the Ten Comandments, The Pookah turned

to the priest and said " Sir Father, ten is a very great number, what

if I should forget one? " The Priest replied " Then you will have to

suffer with the rest of us. "

The message was crystal clear to me. Being an alcoholic made

no difference, even if I was different it was immaterial, I would suffer

like everyone else. The other side of that is " No More " than

anyone else. Her story called me a responsible adult, no different

than other people in what I needed to do or how I needed to

conduct myself. That day stands as the turning point in my

attitude and conduct. It was my real beginning.

Hope it helps you

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi Again ;

Just read your other post.

So I will tell you what happened that was a real turning point in my

therapy. It could hold no meaning for you, but it did for me.

Remember I was about three months into therapy and 30 years in

AA.

I was explaining the disease concept to Dr Laing and explaining

how different that made we alcoholics and so on.

She said " I see. Why don't you let me tell you a story? " I said

sure. She began:

Once upon a time there was a Pookah(That's a fairy who can shift

his shape and turn into a horse) He fell in love with a human girl

and asked her to marry him. The girl was a good Catholic girl and

she told him she would marry him if he became a Catholic. The

Pookah agreed and went to the village priest to begin his lessons.

One day while studying the Ten Comandments, The Pookah turned

to the priest and said " Sir Father, ten is a very great number, what

if I should forget one? " The Priest replied " Then you will have to

suffer with the rest of us. "

The message was crystal clear to me. Being an alcoholic made

no difference, even if I was different it was immaterial, I would suffer

like everyone else. The other side of that is " No More " than

anyone else. Her story called me a responsible adult, no different

than other people in what I needed to do or how I needed to

conduct myself. That day stands as the turning point in my

attitude and conduct. It was my real beginning.

Hope it helps you

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Yes, PD is personality disoder. And if one with a PD could just " stop " I hope they teach the other's of us how to:)

Having a PD is a clinical dx.....a serious one. PD's are dangerous to your well being, they hurt the ones who have them and at times, others around them. They are *no fun* to have. It takes years of therapy, at times, to overcome one. It is not as simple as cutting back on food, though I sure wish it was...

It is a painful way to live....

>Would someone please tell me what PD is? Is it personality disorder? And

>whats with the therapy to find out why you do strange things? If you see that

>something causes you trouble stop it.My own opinion of course. I shop to much

>eat to much watch to much TV but I am not hurting anyone and I think the

>human mind is to complex to imagine have conclusive answers to somethings.

>Anything in moderation is fine, as long as you don't hurt any one. Learn from

>your mistakes and move on

>Of course a clinical dx or a chemical imbalance is a different story. 12 step

>anything is a crock of shit AA being the mother of all crocks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups Spotlight:

" Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for

breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you.

http://clickhere./click/114

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

www. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Yes, PD is personality disoder. And if one with a PD could just " stop " I hope they teach the other's of us how to:)

Having a PD is a clinical dx.....a serious one. PD's are dangerous to your well being, they hurt the ones who have them and at times, others around them. They are *no fun* to have. It takes years of therapy, at times, to overcome one. It is not as simple as cutting back on food, though I sure wish it was...

It is a painful way to live....

>Would someone please tell me what PD is? Is it personality disorder? And

>whats with the therapy to find out why you do strange things? If you see that

>something causes you trouble stop it.My own opinion of course. I shop to much

>eat to much watch to much TV but I am not hurting anyone and I think the

>human mind is to complex to imagine have conclusive answers to somethings.

>Anything in moderation is fine, as long as you don't hurt any one. Learn from

>your mistakes and move on

>Of course a clinical dx or a chemical imbalance is a different story. 12 step

>anything is a crock of shit AA being the mother of all crocks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups Spotlight:

" Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for

breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you.

http://clickhere./click/114

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

www. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Yes, PD is personality disoder. And if one with a PD could just " stop " I hope they teach the other's of us how to:)

Having a PD is a clinical dx.....a serious one. PD's are dangerous to your well being, they hurt the ones who have them and at times, others around them. They are *no fun* to have. It takes years of therapy, at times, to overcome one. It is not as simple as cutting back on food, though I sure wish it was...

It is a painful way to live....

>Would someone please tell me what PD is? Is it personality disorder? And

>whats with the therapy to find out why you do strange things? If you see that

>something causes you trouble stop it.My own opinion of course. I shop to much

>eat to much watch to much TV but I am not hurting anyone and I think the

>human mind is to complex to imagine have conclusive answers to somethings.

>Anything in moderation is fine, as long as you don't hurt any one. Learn from

>your mistakes and move on

>Of course a clinical dx or a chemical imbalance is a different story. 12 step

>anything is a crock of shit AA being the mother of all crocks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups Spotlight:

" Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for

breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you.

http://clickhere./click/114

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

www. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

For those of us who are not in the know, can you explain what a PD is? Is it

like a borderline personality (and what is that?)? I'm confused, partly because

I had a Court TV show on today about a boy who was diagnosed as all kinds of

things, centering around those two concepts. He thought he was a vampire and

had bludgeoned two people to death.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Hi,

>

>Yes, PD is personality disoder. And if one with a PD could just " stop " I

>hope they teach the other's of us how to:)

>

>Having a PD is a clinical dx.....a serious one. PD's are dangerous to your

>well being, they hurt the ones who have them and at times, others around

>them. They are *no fun* to have. It takes years of therapy, at times, to

>overcome one. It is not as simple as cutting back on food, though I sure

>wish it was...

>

>It is a painful way to live....

>

>

>

>

>

>>Would someone please tell me what PD is? Is it personality disorder? And

>>whats with the therapy to find out why you do strange things? If you see that

>>something causes you trouble stop it.My own opinion of course. I shop to much

>>eat to much watch to much TV but I am not hurting anyone and I think the

>>human mind is to complex to imagine have conclusive answers to somethings.

>>Anything in moderation is fine, as long as you don't hurt any one. Learn from

>>your mistakes and move on

>>Of course a clinical dx or a chemical imbalance is a different story. 12 step

>>anything is a crock of shit AA being the mother of all crocks.

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>eGroups Spotlight:

> " Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for

> breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you.

> http://clickhere./click/114

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Just Tell Us What You Want...

>Respond.com - Shopping the World for You!

>http://clickhere./click/390

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

For those of us who are not in the know, can you explain what a PD is? Is it

like a borderline personality (and what is that?)? I'm confused, partly because

I had a Court TV show on today about a boy who was diagnosed as all kinds of

things, centering around those two concepts. He thought he was a vampire and

had bludgeoned two people to death.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Hi,

>

>Yes, PD is personality disoder. And if one with a PD could just " stop " I

>hope they teach the other's of us how to:)

>

>Having a PD is a clinical dx.....a serious one. PD's are dangerous to your

>well being, they hurt the ones who have them and at times, others around

>them. They are *no fun* to have. It takes years of therapy, at times, to

>overcome one. It is not as simple as cutting back on food, though I sure

>wish it was...

>

>It is a painful way to live....

>

>

>

>

>

>>Would someone please tell me what PD is? Is it personality disorder? And

>>whats with the therapy to find out why you do strange things? If you see that

>>something causes you trouble stop it.My own opinion of course. I shop to much

>>eat to much watch to much TV but I am not hurting anyone and I think the

>>human mind is to complex to imagine have conclusive answers to somethings.

>>Anything in moderation is fine, as long as you don't hurt any one. Learn from

>>your mistakes and move on

>>Of course a clinical dx or a chemical imbalance is a different story. 12 step

>>anything is a crock of shit AA being the mother of all crocks.

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>eGroups Spotlight:

> " Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for

> breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you.

> http://clickhere./click/114

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Just Tell Us What You Want...

>Respond.com - Shopping the World for You!

>http://clickhere./click/390

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

I don't think this was the original AA stance. I think there is a pamphlet that

AA puts out about how members can't substitute their judgement for that of

doctors.

The problem is that the doctors and counselors and TX Centers raised the stakes

with that theory, that antipsychotics, antidepressants, etc., were as bad as

intoxicating drugs.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>At 02:38 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote:

>>When I entered therapy for the borderline, and immediately was placed on

>anti-depressents, I was, " not working my program " ...for if I was working

>it, I would not NEED anti-depressents.

>

>And I suppose of someone needed a cornea graft or a heart bypass, if they

>were truly working it they would not need it. I amazed every single time I

>hear this nonsense. This is in effect saying that there are no medical

>conditions affecting the mind that really require medication, that the

>religion in the program is better than a real doctor's help, even in

>medically diagnosed depression. It is amazing, arrogant, seriously

>dangerous and totally asinine. And it is practising medicine without a

>license.

>

>

>Joe Berenbaum

>mailto:joe-b@...

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

>Try something new and discover more ways to save!

>http://clickhere./click/381

>

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

I don't think this was the original AA stance. I think there is a pamphlet that

AA puts out about how members can't substitute their judgement for that of

doctors.

The problem is that the doctors and counselors and TX Centers raised the stakes

with that theory, that antipsychotics, antidepressants, etc., were as bad as

intoxicating drugs.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>At 02:38 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote:

>>When I entered therapy for the borderline, and immediately was placed on

>anti-depressents, I was, " not working my program " ...for if I was working

>it, I would not NEED anti-depressents.

>

>And I suppose of someone needed a cornea graft or a heart bypass, if they

>were truly working it they would not need it. I amazed every single time I

>hear this nonsense. This is in effect saying that there are no medical

>conditions affecting the mind that really require medication, that the

>religion in the program is better than a real doctor's help, even in

>medically diagnosed depression. It is amazing, arrogant, seriously

>dangerous and totally asinine. And it is practising medicine without a

>license.

>

>

>Joe Berenbaum

>mailto:joe-b@...

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

>Try something new and discover more ways to save!

>http://clickhere./click/381

>

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

I don't think this was the original AA stance. I think there is a pamphlet that

AA puts out about how members can't substitute their judgement for that of

doctors.

The problem is that the doctors and counselors and TX Centers raised the stakes

with that theory, that antipsychotics, antidepressants, etc., were as bad as

intoxicating drugs.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>At 02:38 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote:

>>When I entered therapy for the borderline, and immediately was placed on

>anti-depressents, I was, " not working my program " ...for if I was working

>it, I would not NEED anti-depressents.

>

>And I suppose of someone needed a cornea graft or a heart bypass, if they

>were truly working it they would not need it. I amazed every single time I

>hear this nonsense. This is in effect saying that there are no medical

>conditions affecting the mind that really require medication, that the

>religion in the program is better than a real doctor's help, even in

>medically diagnosed depression. It is amazing, arrogant, seriously

>dangerous and totally asinine. And it is practising medicine without a

>license.

>

>

>Joe Berenbaum

>mailto:joe-b@...

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

>Try something new and discover more ways to save!

>http://clickhere./click/381

>

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Kayleigh,

Yes, borderline is borderline personality disorder. Personality disorders are a long lasting and all pervasive way of thinking " incorrectly " . If you type in mentalhealth.net, you will find more information than you care to know.

PD's are formed in childhood, it is something that happens, usually, beyond their control. No fault of their own. They are formed often under severe distress and abuse.

Borderline is sort of like a not knowing who you are, to the extinct that she has to pick up her cues from others --in trying to figure out how she is suppose to " act " ...and I say act, for that is what they do. They are clueless to who or what they are. It is buried. They are what other's expect them to be while growing up. Their own self is hidden. This " act " starts falling apart, usually around the mid thirties, and all hell breaks loose in her life. She has been living in hell, but now she knows she is in hell. And some serious therapy can start.

PD's are painful. They have to learn a whole new way of thinking. They learned to side-step, manipulate, control, counter control, dodge and counter dodge as children, to escape abuse. They have to unlearn all this. But the catch is, they do not KNOW they think incorrectly.

I am speaking from my own experience here. That is all I can do. I am sure many who have PD's will have differant stories, to how and why it developed in their life. I know of people who have said they actually remember the day they put on their " act " , their false front. I do not remember at all. I have always been like this as far back as I can remember. And it is the tearing down of all of this, that I am in therapy for...see there really are some things that AA can not fix:)...

But since I am not unique.........I am not suppose to feel or think my problem is out of the scope of AA...

I am not sure what we talk about on this list, I am not sure if we are even suppose to be discussing PD's? I don't mind, as long as it isn't going to cause any trouble or problems?

For those of us who are not in the know, can you explain what a PD is? Is it like a borderline personality (and what is that?)? I'm confused, partly because I had a Court TV show on today about a boy who was diagnosed as all kinds of things, centering around those two concepts. He thought he was a vampire and had bludgeoned two people to death.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Hi,

>

>Yes, PD is personality disoder. And if one with a PD could just " stop " I

>hope they teach the other's of us how to:)

>

>Having a PD is a clinical dx.....a serious one. PD's are dangerous to your

>well being, they hurt the ones who have them and at times, others around

>them. They are *no fun* to have. It takes years of therapy, at times, to

>overcome one. It is not as simple as cutting back on food, though I sure

>wish it was...

>

>It is a painful way to live....

>

>

>

>

>

>>Would someone please tell me what PD is? Is it personality disorder? And

>>whats with the therapy to find out why you do strange things? If you see that

>>something causes you trouble stop it.My own opinion of course. I shop to much

>>eat to much watch to much TV but I am not hurting anyone and I think the

>>human mind is to complex to imagine have conclusive answers to somethings.

>>Anything in moderation is fine, as long as you don't hurt any one. Learn from

>>your mistakes and move on

>>Of course a clinical dx or a chemical imbalance is a different story. 12 step

>>anything is a crock of shit AA being the mother of all crocks.

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>eGroups Spotlight:

> " Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for

> breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you.

> http://clickhere./click/114

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Just Tell Us What You Want...

>Respond.com - Shopping the World for You!

>http://clickhere./click/390

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups Spotlight:

" Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for

breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you.

http://clickhere./click/114

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

www. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Kayleigh,

Yes, borderline is borderline personality disorder. Personality disorders are a long lasting and all pervasive way of thinking " incorrectly " . If you type in mentalhealth.net, you will find more information than you care to know.

PD's are formed in childhood, it is something that happens, usually, beyond their control. No fault of their own. They are formed often under severe distress and abuse.

Borderline is sort of like a not knowing who you are, to the extinct that she has to pick up her cues from others --in trying to figure out how she is suppose to " act " ...and I say act, for that is what they do. They are clueless to who or what they are. It is buried. They are what other's expect them to be while growing up. Their own self is hidden. This " act " starts falling apart, usually around the mid thirties, and all hell breaks loose in her life. She has been living in hell, but now she knows she is in hell. And some serious therapy can start.

PD's are painful. They have to learn a whole new way of thinking. They learned to side-step, manipulate, control, counter control, dodge and counter dodge as children, to escape abuse. They have to unlearn all this. But the catch is, they do not KNOW they think incorrectly.

I am speaking from my own experience here. That is all I can do. I am sure many who have PD's will have differant stories, to how and why it developed in their life. I know of people who have said they actually remember the day they put on their " act " , their false front. I do not remember at all. I have always been like this as far back as I can remember. And it is the tearing down of all of this, that I am in therapy for...see there really are some things that AA can not fix:)...

But since I am not unique.........I am not suppose to feel or think my problem is out of the scope of AA...

I am not sure what we talk about on this list, I am not sure if we are even suppose to be discussing PD's? I don't mind, as long as it isn't going to cause any trouble or problems?

For those of us who are not in the know, can you explain what a PD is? Is it like a borderline personality (and what is that?)? I'm confused, partly because I had a Court TV show on today about a boy who was diagnosed as all kinds of things, centering around those two concepts. He thought he was a vampire and had bludgeoned two people to death.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Hi,

>

>Yes, PD is personality disoder. And if one with a PD could just " stop " I

>hope they teach the other's of us how to:)

>

>Having a PD is a clinical dx.....a serious one. PD's are dangerous to your

>well being, they hurt the ones who have them and at times, others around

>them. They are *no fun* to have. It takes years of therapy, at times, to

>overcome one. It is not as simple as cutting back on food, though I sure

>wish it was...

>

>It is a painful way to live....

>

>

>

>

>

>>Would someone please tell me what PD is? Is it personality disorder? And

>>whats with the therapy to find out why you do strange things? If you see that

>>something causes you trouble stop it.My own opinion of course. I shop to much

>>eat to much watch to much TV but I am not hurting anyone and I think the

>>human mind is to complex to imagine have conclusive answers to somethings.

>>Anything in moderation is fine, as long as you don't hurt any one. Learn from

>>your mistakes and move on

>>Of course a clinical dx or a chemical imbalance is a different story. 12 step

>>anything is a crock of shit AA being the mother of all crocks.

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>eGroups Spotlight:

> " Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for

> breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you.

> http://clickhere./click/114

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Just Tell Us What You Want...

>Respond.com - Shopping the World for You!

>http://clickhere./click/390

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups Spotlight:

" Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for

breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you.

http://clickhere./click/114

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

www. - Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Hi

I understand that believe me. It just seems that people feel relieved when

they have a name for their disease, it seems like everybody wants one. My

biggest problem was trying to get rid of all the labels people put on me. I

feel this , it's not a fact, so please don' t think that I am judging

you. All my life I was the problem child in my family and they always said

even on introduction Jens got problems, shes adopted, shit like that. So now

I go out of my way to stay away from a label of any kind. My parents love AA

because they get to pass off any responsibility of how I was raised onto the

Genetic Alcoholic Label, Alc. Tendencies and all that crap. And you know

whats funny?? They are both Methodist Ministers!!! YIKES!!!

Peace

Jen

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

HI Java,

> Would someone please tell me what PD is? Is it personality disorder? And

> whats with the therapy to find out why you do strange things? If you see that

> something causes you trouble stop it.My own opinion of course. I shop to much

> eat to much watch to much TV but I am not hurting anyone and I think the

> human mind is to complex to imagine have conclusive

answers to somethings.

PD is normally the abbreviation for Panic disorder, but in

personality disorder 'circles', it means that.

A personality disorder could be defined as being unable to

stop repeating self-destructive behavior. Finding out the

causes of a behavior can help you stop doing it. IT is not

so much the need to go thru the suffering again but to

process it, to grieve it. for example, when I have

discusssed traumas, I have often wept like a child - when

the actual child was not allowed to weep when the abuse too

place. thru this grieving process, the trauma can be worked

thru and let go.

Pete

Owner

PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm

PD Personality Disorders Discussion

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Sorry Pete.

But Mother Theresa is dead.

Hope I don't spoil anything. Just trying to help!

Bjørn.

ps.

could you tell me about lists concerning sociobiology and social

darwinism?

would appreciate it, I would.!

Don't worry, I wont mention any english.

S.Y.L.A.

bjørn

Pete Watts wrote:

>

> As I am trying to heal the rift with Theresa at the moment

I wont respond to this, and of course, it is VERY much

off-topic for this list.

Pete

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> [MSN delivers what's important to you]

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> www. - Simplifying group communications

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Sorry Pete.

But Mother Theresa is dead.

Hope I don't spoil anything. Just trying to help!

Bjørn.

ps.

could you tell me about lists concerning sociobiology and social

darwinism?

would appreciate it, I would.!

Don't worry, I wont mention any english.

S.Y.L.A.

bjørn

Pete Watts wrote:

>

> As I am trying to heal the rift with Theresa at the moment

I wont respond to this, and of course, it is VERY much

off-topic for this list.

Pete

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> [MSN delivers what's important to you]

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> www. - Simplifying group communications

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications