Guest guest Posted June 28, 1999 Report Share Posted June 28, 1999 HI All I do seem to make a habit of this. I joined a personality disorders list where the moderators are both groupers. Now I'm being " moderated " for speaking out against AA. Before they nuked my TV station tho, I managed to get out abt 12-step-free, and now we have with us. I might well get zapped entirely; anyway, we'll see. I put an ultr-reasonable post in where I mentioned Chaz's, Ken's, and Stanton Peele's books as helping me; if it doesnt go thru, then i guess I ought to quit on principle. Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 What do personality disorders and XA have to do with each other? Is there a PDA? Do many PDs abuse substances? --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >HI All > >I do seem to make a habit of this. I joined a personality >disorders list where the moderators are both groupers. Now >I'm being " moderated " for speaking out against AA. > >Before they nuked my TV station tho, I managed to get out >abt 12-step-free, and now we have with us. > >I might well get zapped entirely; anyway, we'll see. I put >an ultr-reasonable post in where I mentioned Chaz's, Ken's, >and Stanton Peele's books as helping me; if it doesnt go >thru, then i guess I ought to quit on principle. > >Pete > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 Well, Pete ... if you had bothered to ask, you would find out that neither of us are " groupers " ... neither of us ever in addiction, neither of us raised by alcoholics, neither of us ever in a 12-step program of any kind. What you took offense to was the fact that we allow people on our healing list to speak of what has been of value to them. For me, what has been of value is kicking trash cans full of Kleenex across the room ... <ah, sheer delight>. You, as I said before, met with several therapists disapproval -not- for speaking against AA (you have my first private letter to you to confirm this) but in disruptive the group process. Our group is not a discussion list nor a debate forum ... and I've been telling you this for several days. I do wish that since you had no sincere desire to benefit from our list or to help others that you had just kept on going.......... Cricket / Theresa Pete wrote: > I do seem to make a habit of this. I joined a personality > disorders list where the moderators are both groupers. Now > I'm being " moderated " for speaking out against AA. > > Before they nuked my TV station tho, I managed to get out > abt 12-step-free, and now we have with us. > > I might well get zapped entirely; anyway, we'll see. I put > an ultr-reasonable post in where I mentioned Chaz's, Ken's, > and Stanton Peele's books as helping me; if it doesnt go > thru, then i guess I ought to quit on principle. > > Pete > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Kayleigh, I am not a therapist, I am one of those PD's:)...but I will answer your question from what I have heard. From what I understand, there are alot of substance abusers who are PD's. Some therapists think that almost all substance abusers have at least one recognizable PD, and often two recognizable PD's. Other therapists think that approximately half of all substance abusers have one or more PD's My own opinion is, something has gone awry within the person who abuses substances. I can't imagine a healthy minded person allowing themselves to break laws, drink and drive, neglect their health, neglect their loved ones, risk losing their family, spend money they can't afford on these substances, miss work, go through withdrawals repeatedly while attempting to stop, and on and on and on.... Something is not working right I would say:)... My own breakthrough from addictions came when I finally admitted to myself, the borderline diagnoses that had been given to me nine years earlier. How could I ever stop drinking and using, if the borderline behavior and thought processes kept me getting in the way? Just my own little opinions though.... >What do personality disorders and XA have to do with each other? Is there >a PDA? Do many PDs abuse substances? > >--- >Kayleigh > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 As I am trying to heal the rift with Theresa at the moment I wont respond to this, and of course, it is VERY much off-topic for this list. Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 At 09:06 PM 6/29/99 -0700, you wrote: >Well, Pete ... if you had bothered to ask, you would find out that neither of us are " groupers " ... neither of us ever in addiction, neither of us raised by alcoholics, neither of us ever in a 12-step program of any kind. What you took offense to was the fact that we allow people on our healing list to speak of what has been of value to them. For me, what has been of value is kicking trash cans full of Kleenex across the room ... <ah, sheer delight>. > >You, as I said before, met with several therapists disapproval -not- for speaking against AA (you have my first private letter to you to confirm this) but in disruptive the group process. Our group is not a discussion list nor a debate forum ... and I've been telling you this for several days. > >I do wish that since you had no sincere desire to benefit from our list or to help others that you had just kept on going.......... > >Cricket / Theresa Cricket / Theresa, do you have any sincere desire to benefit from THIS list? I ask because it looks as if you are only here to hassle Pete. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Yes, Joe, I do and already am benefiting from this group. Knowing next to nothing about 12-step programs, I am now learning quite a bit <Thanks, Pete> which I think will be of continuing value me and to my list. I don't know that I could necessarily help anyone here except in my expressing my support of people defending themselves from the self-infliction of inappropriate guilt, and to my support of them removing inappropriate guilt from their internalized progamming instructions. And, as to and I ... just two (too ... <laughing>) Narcissists getting to know each other ... in a backwards manner, but I think it's possible that we may become friends. Theresa Joe Berenbaum wrote: > At 09:06 PM 6/29/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Well, Pete ... if you had bothered to ask, you would find out that neither > of us are " groupers " ... neither of us ever in addiction, neither of us > raised by alcoholics, neither of us ever in a 12-step program of any kind. > What you took offense to was the fact that we allow people on our healing > list to speak of what has been of value to them. For me, what has been of > value is kicking trash cans full of Kleenex across the room ... <ah, sheer > delight>. > > > >You, as I said before, met with several therapists disapproval -not- for > speaking against AA (you have my first private letter to you to confirm > this) but in disruptive the group process. Our group is not a discussion > list nor a debate forum ... and I've been telling you this for several days. > > > >I do wish that since you had no sincere desire to benefit from our list or > to help others that you had just kept on going.......... > > > >Cricket / Theresa > > Cricket / Theresa, do you have any sincere desire to benefit from THIS list? > > I ask because it looks as if you are only here to hassle Pete. > > Joe Berenbaum > mailto:joe-b@... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members > Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon > .com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click/363 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 It's cool , no problem. Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Hi Joe; Cricket/Theresa, will not understand what you are saying. Folks like her believe they are " The Way, The Truth and The Light " Anyone who disagrees, is simply a poor sick person. You can see in the jargon she uses, it's very similar to an avoidance mechanism. " Disrupting The Group Process " means saying something they don't like. Don't be too disturbed by it, Ken will ice hear if she keeps it up. As she said her list brooks no debate or discussion. What's left? Maybe they send each other those " Cutesy AA Homilies " or similar stuff. Maybe favorite quotes from the " One Day at a Time Book? " Hard to imagine what exactly they do with no discussion or debate allowed isn't it? I mean why have a list at all? I'd be forced to agree with Pete, the jargon is typicall AA. Or as Humpty Dumpty said " A word means what I wish it to mean. " Thanks for that one Pete, I had forgotten it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Hi Joe and May I say something, and hopefully it will not add to the controversy between Theresa and Pete... I was the one who was sending the " Cutesy AA Homilies " to the list. The list we are referring to is a healing list for PD's and their victims. When I read something that had helped me, I would send it to the list and refer to how it had helped me. I was allowed to advocate my opinion only, what I mean is: I could say it worked for me, but I could not try to force my belief on you. I could not try to make you think that my way was the only way, and you were wrong if you didn't agree with me. This was one of Theresa's suggestions when I obtained permission to use AA and AL-Anon literature on the PD list. So, I was allowed to speak freely, but I couldn't attack others for not agreeing with me... Sounds diplomatic enough to me.... I think she was more than fair to all concerned. Limits have to be placed somewhere, or the whole list turns into one massive war. I had my limits, and so did Pete. But, there were times those limits were crossed...and even I, was reminded that I had crossed the limits and could be put on moderated status. I accepted this for I KNEW I had crossed the limits. I knew I had pushed my luck, I knew I was treading on other people's boundaries. Which, if anyone knows anything about PD's they WILL tread on other people's boundaries and do it in a heartbeat. A great healing has got to start taking place before a PD such as a narcissist or a borderline can even see when they are treading on others. If a PD on Theresa's list refuses to attempt respect and others boundaries, it leaves her with no choice but to moderate that one, to protect and respect the boundaries of others. In the event of my posting the " Cutesy AA Homilies, " I was countered on almost everyword I said by Pete. I am NOT attacking Pete here at all. I am giving my side of the story. Theresa and I are great friends, she is a MamaBear, so to speak, on my behalf. She knew I had only been sober for 18 months, and also knows the fragility of the place I am in my life at this moment. My boyfriend is also on this list I am speaking of. He and Theresa, were starting to get alarmed, watching me try to defend what little " protection " I had. What I mean is, they both know I live alone and am overly sensitive. They both know that at this point in my life, I have what is considered a very " fragile sense of self " . They felt that Pete was intentionally trying to " rip the rug out from under me " while I was struggling to keep afloat. Pete was continoulsy misunderstanding anything and everything I said. If I did a " tongue in cheek " post, he questioned WHY would I think like that. When everyone else on the list could see that it was a joke, Pete took it seriously. So, once again...my boyfriend or Theresa would have to explain my post, if they had seen it before I did. Pete send a post to the list, which Theresa intercepted and sent back to him...asking him why did he feel such a need to do this to me? Couldn't he read-see the distress I was under? I would not have known about this post, except Pete broke the rules and mailed it to my home directly. In the letter I read he had written to Theresa, asking " what makes you think I can't write directly " . Theresa responded by saying, he could but would it be right to do so? (My words) Pete broke the rules several times on the list. He posted when a post had been for " read only " and we were asked not to respond back. He sent me private letters that were between him and Theresa. I am not mad at Pete...I am giving my side of the story... Many may think it wrong that Theresa and my boyfriend stepped in on my behalf. But, when someone loves you and they see another breaking rules left and right, intentionally countering every word one says, and intentionally trying to back another into a corner...they will come out in full force. Bu the time this was over, I was very sick. Theresa and Tim (my boyfriend) had had enough. Anything and everything I said about AA was wrong. Granted Pete did point out some very good things to me...but being where I am in life, I was not in an emotional state to have my rug ripped out from under me. And he kept ripping and ripping and ripping.... Until Theresa ripped him from the list.... >Hi Joe; > >Cricket/Theresa, will not understand what you are saying. Folks >like her believe they are " The Way, The Truth and The Light " >Anyone who disagrees, is simply a poor sick person. > >You can see in the jargon she uses, it's very similar to an >avoidance mechanism. " Disrupting The Group Process " means >saying something they don't like. > >Don't be too disturbed by it, Ken will ice hear if she keeps it up. >As she said her list brooks no debate or discussion. What's left? >Maybe they send each other those " Cutesy AA Homilies " or >similar stuff. Maybe favorite quotes from the " One Day at a Time >Book? " > >Hard to imagine what exactly they do with no discussion or debate >allowed isn't it? I mean why have a list at all? > >I'd be forced to agree with Pete, the jargon is typicall AA. Or as >Humpty Dumpty said " A word means what I wish it to mean. " >Thanks for that one Pete, I had forgotten it. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets >anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 intoxication makes for stupid behaviors. At 01:28 AM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: >Kayleigh, > >I am not a therapist, I am one of those PD's:)...but I will answer your >question from what I have heard. > >>From what I understand, there are alot of substance abusers who are PD's. >Some therapists think that almost all substance abusers have at least one >recognizable PD, and often two recognizable PD's. Other therapists think >that approximately half of all substance abusers have one or more PD's > >My own opinion is, something has gone awry within the person who abuses >substances. I can't imagine a healthy minded person allowing themselves to >break laws, drink and drive, neglect their health, neglect their loved ones, >risk losing their family, spend money they can't afford on these substances, >miss work, go through withdrawals repeatedly while attempting to stop, and >on and on and on.... > >Something is not working right I would say:)... > >My own breakthrough from addictions came when I finally admitted to myself, >the borderline diagnoses that had been given to me nine years earlier. How >could I ever stop drinking and using, if the borderline behavior and thought >processes kept me getting in the way? > >Just my own little opinions though.... > > > > > >>What do personality disorders and XA have to do with each other? Is there >>a PDA? Do many PDs abuse substances? >> >>--- >>Kayleigh >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Just Tell Us What You Want... >Respond.com - Shopping the World for You! >http://clickhere./click/390 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 isn't npl neurolinguistic programming ? At 10:17 AM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: >Yes, Joe, I do and already am benefiting from this group. Knowing next to >nothing about 12-step programs, I am now learning quite a bit <Thanks, Pete> >which I think will be of continuing value me and to my list. > >I don't know that I could necessarily help anyone here except in my expressing >my support of people defending themselves from the self-infliction of >inappropriate guilt, and to my support of them removing inappropriate guilt from >their internalized progamming instructions. > >And, as to and I ... just two (too ... <laughing>) Narcissists getting to >know each other ... in a backwards manner, but I think it's possible that we may >become friends. > >Theresa > > > >Joe Berenbaum wrote: > >> At 09:06 PM 6/29/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >Well, Pete ... if you had bothered to ask, you would find out that neither >> of us are " groupers " ... neither of us ever in addiction, neither of us >> raised by alcoholics, neither of us ever in a 12-step program of any kind. >> What you took offense to was the fact that we allow people on our healing >> list to speak of what has been of value to them. For me, what has been of >> value is kicking trash cans full of Kleenex across the room ... <ah, sheer >> delight>. >> > >> >You, as I said before, met with several therapists disapproval -not- for >> speaking against AA (you have my first private letter to you to confirm >> this) but in disruptive the group process. Our group is not a discussion >> list nor a debate forum ... and I've been telling you this for several days. >> > >> >I do wish that since you had no sincere desire to benefit from our list or >> to help others that you had just kept on going.......... >> > >> >Cricket / Theresa >> >> Cricket / Theresa, do you have any sincere desire to benefit from THIS list? >> >> I ask because it looks as if you are only here to hassle Pete. >> >> Joe Berenbaum >> mailto:joe-b@... >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members >> Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon >> .com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click/363 >> >> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >eGroups Spotlight: > " Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for > breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you. > http://clickhere./click/114 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Hi ; I'm forced to agree. Just being intoxicated doesn't explain the repitition of the behaviors that I went through. I also used to blame my criminal behavior on my drinking, after all I'd never do those things sober! Right? Though an ordinary person might catch a dwi, he wouldn't then go ahead and drive to the bar on a suspended lisence and do it repeatedly. But I would, why? I didn't really know and The AA answer was wholly unsatisfying and really explained nothing. A disease producing all these various behaviors in different people didn't ring true to me. It also meant I was just like guys who got drunk and abused little kids and I couldn't handle that idea and rejected it out of hand. When I raised that objection my sponsor told me I probably would do something like that if I kept drinking. I knew in my guts that was not true. I had undiagnosed PTSD all through my AA experience, except that last 5 months when I went back to AA. I didn't stay sober. Booze was 100% effective against the physical pain of the PTSD. I never had an attack while drinking and had them regularly when sober.. Had I not saw Dr Laing I would likely still be treating PTSD with alcohol in liberal quantities if not dead from it. All my life was arranged around the pain and fear of pain from the PTSD. When I learned it could be treated, if I didn't drink, I quit. Today my life is not arranged around pain or the fear of it. I think it very possible that folks who relapse regularly in AA for years are in the same boat I was. An undiagnosed serious problem. Once most of us are aware of what is causing the pain we will take at least some measures to make things better. Alcohol may well have reduced my natural inhibition against doing something, but who forced the alcohol down me? I don't feel that voluntary intoxication is a valid defense against responsibility for the things I did. The man I beat up. I really wanted to kill him, but I got arm weary and couldn't hit anymore. I know it sounds terrible, but it's how I felt at the time. It's quite repugnant to me today to remember feeling that way, but I did and I live with that. At 18 months sober I came close to repeating it and had that same feeling, but I didn't follow through with it. I credit the therapy with saving me. The anger and desire for revenge could no longer totally swamp my sense of right and wrong as it could in the past. I couldn't sustain the necessary anger to follow through. One might argue that if I'd been drinking...... However, that would mean I'd quit being treated, because the treatment won't work while drinking. It winds up circular with no clear answer. For me The Treatment for PTSD and being sober are siamese twins, one cannot survive without the other, and without both I won't survive for long. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Hi ; Did I once say that nothing I said was Holy Writ? As you can see I stepped on my tongue. From your post you sound quite capable of defending your position and putting the ball in the other person's court. At least you took my post apart handily, and use sarcasm well. Ever since your first post you've done well. I fully realize how difficult it can be to stand up for one's ownself. Is PTSD included in the term " Pod People " ? I still don't like what Cricket said to Pete. It's Bull. Disrupting The Group Process, is jargon that can mean anything and at the same time mean nothing at all. Usually it means saying something The Group Authority diesn't like. I also disagree with the need for limits on speech. Group leaders limit speech so they get only the speech which they wish to hear. In the real world I deal with abrasive people all the time. Many nearly as opinionated as I am. If we discuss only happy things and things that work, nothing gets done. It's pain that brings change in me and progress to the world. It was the pain that forced me to quit AA and stay sober. It's other's similar pain that bolsters my will not to return. The things that work are actually secondary to those that don't, in my life. When confronted by watson with a cabinet of documents on failed experiments, Edison is purported to have reacted thus " asks " Shall I throw these out, they are over a thousand tries for an incandescant bulb and all have failed? " Edison replied " No watson, keep them, they are important, we must be close because we know over a thousand ways that won't work. " I believe so it is in life, I learn more from what doesn't work. I doubt I'm unique in this. Obviously the term Cutsey AA Homilies gave offense. That was not aimed at you and I apologize for it. There's a few folks in the world I'd like to offend, but you are certainly not among them. There's an old axiom of law that goes like this " Situations alter cases " . This appears to be one of those times. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 HI - You are Unique and never let those bozo's tell you otherwise. There are drones. Period. I too am dealing with PSTD over childhood abuse, a dose of fibromyalgia, depression and a nasty sinus infection that will require surgery next Tues. What a mess!!! I stopped the anti-depressants last week for the surgery and it sucks right now, feeling like I'm being plugged into a wall outlet most of the time. That does pass with time. Having you significant other so far away sucks. Tell him you need him and to move his butt closer!!! Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 HI - You are Unique and never let those bozo's tell you otherwise. There are drones. Period. I too am dealing with PSTD over childhood abuse, a dose of fibromyalgia, depression and a nasty sinus infection that will require surgery next Tues. What a mess!!! I stopped the anti-depressants last week for the surgery and it sucks right now, feeling like I'm being plugged into a wall outlet most of the time. That does pass with time. Having you significant other so far away sucks. Tell him you need him and to move his butt closer!!! Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 HI - You are Unique and never let those bozo's tell you otherwise. There are drones. Period. I too am dealing with PSTD over childhood abuse, a dose of fibromyalgia, depression and a nasty sinus infection that will require surgery next Tues. What a mess!!! I stopped the anti-depressants last week for the surgery and it sucks right now, feeling like I'm being plugged into a wall outlet most of the time. That does pass with time. Having you significant other so far away sucks. Tell him you need him and to move his butt closer!!! Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 . I truly enjoyed this letter. I know that when I finally admitted the borderline condition, and I am stubborn, it took nine years to see it. Yes, I did say NINE:) I had been sober a little over a year " this " time, when I knew something was not right. Here is where AA also started to fail for me. When I entered therapy for the borderline, and immediately was placed on anti-depressents, I was, " not working my program " ...for if I was working it, I would not NEED anti-depressents. I tried explaining to a couple close friends and to my sponsor what the borderline disorder meant. One had the nerve to ask me if I was " trying to be unique " a big NO NO in AA. My sponsor ask me if I was just " creating a crisis " so I wouldn't have to look at the " real " issues... <rolling eyes and shuddering> The real issue WAS being borderline. And trying like heck to get all my answers from AA, and AA alone. For they had drilled into my head, that *I* was the problem. My refusal to do what they said, my strong will, my defiance. Granted , I am all of the above at times. But I was spinning my wheels trying to get healing for a very severe mental disorder in AA. There were some things that helped me tremendously. In fact, my therapist was amazed at my ability to see some things the way I do. And it was due to AA teaching me to throughly look inside myself for my part in the problem. And maybe *I* am the problem to some extinct, no doubt I am. But, I didn't ask for this dang disorder when the DSM was being written and seen people like me out here. I ask my therapist a few weeks ago, just what are we targeting here. He said, " PTSD " ...the after effects of severe child abuse. I went to an AA meeting last night, arrived 15 minutes late, and left 20 minutes early. My therapist says, that if one really wants to start learning about theirself, and truly applies the AA criteria to their life, they will get all they need in the first year. Well, I was 15 months sober when I seen I needed more than AA this time. I am not ready to just " toss it " completely yet. I live alone with no family near by. My closest relative is 300 miles away, and my boyfriend is 240 miles away. But, I will TRY not to fight it either, will try not to deny what I am feeling about AA. For now, it is a " crutch " that I am not quite ready to give up. I also, started having anxiety attacks when it was my turn to speak. They are waiting to make sure you say the " right " AA words. And even then, there is going to be the smart ass who approaches you after the meeting, to give his opinion of what you said... At this point in AA, since I only go about 1-2 twice a week, I am the outcast. And actually, there is enough defiance in me, to sort of revel in being the outcast <grin> Hi ; I'm forced to agree. Just being intoxicated doesn't explain the repitition of the behaviors that I went through. I also used to blame my criminal behavior on my drinking, after all I'd never do those things sober! Right? Though an ordinary person might catch a dwi, he wouldn't then go ahead and drive to the bar on a suspended lisence and do it repeatedly. But I would, why? I didn't really know and The AA answer was wholly unsatisfying and really explained nothing. A disease producing all these various behaviors in different people didn't ring true to me. It also meant I was just like guys who got drunk and abused little kids and I couldn't handle that idea and rejected it out of hand. When I raised that objection my sponsor told me I probably would do something like that if I kept drinking. I knew in my guts that was not true. I had undiagnosed PTSD all through my AA experience, except that last 5 months when I went back to AA. I didn't stay sober. Booze was 100% effective against the physical pain of the PTSD. I never had an attack while drinking and had them regularly when sober.. Had I not saw Dr Laing I would likely still be treating PTSD with alcohol in liberal quantities if not dead from it. All my life was arranged around the pain and fear of pain from the PTSD. When I learned it could be treated, if I didn't drink, I quit. Today my life is not arranged around pain or the fear of it. I think it very possible that folks who relapse regularly in AA for years are in the same boat I was. An undiagnosed serious problem. Once most of us are aware of what is causing the pain we will take at least some measures to make things better. Alcohol may well have reduced my natural inhibition against doing something, but who forced the alcohol down me? I don't feel that voluntary intoxication is a valid defense against responsibility for the things I did. The man I beat up. I really wanted to kill him, but I got arm weary and couldn't hit anymore. I know it sounds terrible, but it's how I felt at the time. It's quite repugnant to me today to remember feeling that way, but I did and I live with that. At 18 months sober I came close to repeating it and had that same feeling, but I didn't follow through with it. I credit the therapy with saving me. The anger and desire for revenge could no longer totally swamp my sense of right and wrong as it could in the past. I couldn't sustain the necessary anger to follow through. One might argue that if I'd been drinking...... However, that would mean I'd quit being treated, because the treatment won't work while drinking. It winds up circular with no clear answer. For me The Treatment for PTSD and being sober are siamese twins, one cannot survive without the other, and without both I won't survive for long. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Just Tell Us What You Want... Respond.com - Shopping the World for You! http://clickhere./click/390 eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 , I have a feeling we are going to get along just fine:). I am smiling while I type this, thinking, " Hey, I like this guy " .... I agree that it is pain that brings about change, and believe that stinking old Pete <grinning again> brought enough pain in my life last week to want to slug him:). I would even tell him, " Hey, you keep making me think... " His posts were irritating the *hit out of me, and I am sure he knew it. And that is a compliment to him in a round about way. I was struggling with some very serious issues in AA, and pretending I wasn't. Then here comes this dang Pete guy out of no where, and starts bringing all my questions to the forefront. Questions I had been perfectly content to deny and ignore:). He was rocking my already precarious boat, and I thought I was drowning. It was the fear of me drowning that brought the MamaBear out in Theresa. I was screaming " throw a rope someone, I am drowning " ...and she did what MamaBears do when a cub is in deep water. Well I didn't drown:)..but will admit, it came quite close there for a couple days. But, I am here...and still on my beloved Theresa's list, so hopefully I can have the best of both internet worlds:) Actually, I hope it all turns out well. I thank Theresa from the bottom of my heart for loving me and being there for me, and for letting me know that she is and was there. And I thank Pete for his boldness to " tread where no man has tread before " ..and that was all over my belief system... Now, that I think about it, it wasn't my belief system...it was AA's system imposed upon me by the gods that be.... Hi ; Did I once say that nothing I said was Holy Writ? As you can see I stepped on my tongue. >From your post you sound quite capable of defending your position and putting the ball in the other person's court. At least you took my post apart handily, and use sarcasm well. Ever since your first post you've done well. I fully realize how difficult it can be to stand up for one's ownself. Is PTSD included in the term " Pod People " ? I still don't like what Cricket said to Pete. It's Bull. Disrupting The Group Process, is jargon that can mean anything and at the same time mean nothing at all. Usually it means saying something The Group Authority diesn't like. I also disagree with the need for limits on speech. Group leaders limit speech so they get only the speech which they wish to hear. In the real world I deal with abrasive people all the time. Many nearly as opinionated as I am. If we discuss only happy things and things that work, nothing gets done. It's pain that brings change in me and progress to the world. It was the pain that forced me to quit AA and stay sober. It's other's similar pain that bolsters my will not to return. The things that work are actually secondary to those that don't, in my life. When confronted by watson with a cabinet of documents on failed experiments, Edison is purported to have reacted thus " asks " Shall I throw these out, they are over a thousand tries for an incandescant bulb and all have failed? " Edison replied " No watson, keep them, they are important, we must be close because we know over a thousand ways that won't work. " I believe so it is in life, I learn more from what doesn't work. I doubt I'm unique in this. Obviously the term Cutsey AA Homilies gave offense. That was not aimed at you and I apologize for it. There's a few folks in the world I'd like to offend, but you are certainly not among them. There's an old axiom of law that goes like this " Situations alter cases " . This appears to be one of those times. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Just Tell Us What You Want... Respond.com - Shopping the World for You! http://clickhere./click/390 eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Hi , Folks I was the first to use the expression " Pod Ppl " recently . It was of coure, a running gag abt Invasion of the Body Snatchers being like AA, which I think Ken first joked abt on addict-l months back. I'm not sure how you've started talking abt it here, but I am totally responsible for it being mooted recently. The Lost Tribe list where I met and Theresa is specifically for ppl with Cluster B prsonality disorders and those affected by them. I understand that XA materialis talked abt there partly because some ppldo have substance abuse problems, and partly because relationships invpolving PDs can seem addictive in nature. it isnt officially an XA list. Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Hi ; Everyone approaches things differently. The folks I knock in AA are the Guru's who are sick puppies and try to tell me they are fine, while doing a multitude of destructive behaviors. As you've found out the group atmosphere in AA silently approves of this and I couldn't make it in that atmosphere. Outside it I function pretty well. I also have PTSD and was in therapy for two years, very intensive the first 13 months, then diminishing toward discharge. I've stayed sober since the first session in Oct of 90. Previously I stayed sober 3 or 4 months at a time and 11 months once. Here it is coming up nine years in a few months. The PTSD nor the booze are the center of my life anymore, rather I am. So far it is working ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 , The therapy seems to be moving to slow for me. Could you maybe explain a couple things you learned in therapy that might have speeded up the process? What couple things do you know now that therapy helped you learn? I have only been in therapy about three months*this time*, and wish something real solid would come forth, something to really hang onto if you know what I mean... Thanks, Hi ; Everyone approaches things differently. The folks I knock in AA are the Guru's who are sick puppies and try to tell me they are fine, while doing a multitude of destructive behaviors. As you've found out the group atmosphere in AA silently approves of this and I couldn't make it in that atmosphere. Outside it I function pretty well. I also have PTSD and was in therapy for two years, very intensive the first 13 months, then diminishing toward discharge. I've stayed sober since the first session in Oct of 90. Previously I stayed sober 3 or 4 months at a time and 11 months once. Here it is coming up nine years in a few months. The PTSD nor the booze are the center of my life anymore, rather I am. So far it is working ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Just Tell Us What You Want... Respond.com - Shopping the World for You! http://clickhere./click/390 eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Would someone please tell me what PD is? Is it personality disorder? And whats with the therapy to find out why you do strange things? If you see that something causes you trouble stop it.My own opinion of course. I shop to much eat to much watch to much TV but I am not hurting anyone and I think the human mind is to complex to imagine have conclusive answers to somethings. Anything in moderation is fine, as long as you don't hurt any one. Learn from your mistakes and move on Of course a clinical dx or a chemical imbalance is a different story. 12 step anything is a crock of shit AA being the mother of all crocks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Would someone please tell me what PD is? Is it personality disorder? And whats with the therapy to find out why you do strange things? If you see that something causes you trouble stop it.My own opinion of course. I shop to much eat to much watch to much TV but I am not hurting anyone and I think the human mind is to complex to imagine have conclusive answers to somethings. Anything in moderation is fine, as long as you don't hurt any one. Learn from your mistakes and move on Of course a clinical dx or a chemical imbalance is a different story. 12 step anything is a crock of shit AA being the mother of all crocks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Would someone please tell me what PD is? Is it personality disorder? And whats with the therapy to find out why you do strange things? If you see that something causes you trouble stop it.My own opinion of course. I shop to much eat to much watch to much TV but I am not hurting anyone and I think the human mind is to complex to imagine have conclusive answers to somethings. Anything in moderation is fine, as long as you don't hurt any one. Learn from your mistakes and move on Of course a clinical dx or a chemical imbalance is a different story. 12 step anything is a crock of shit AA being the mother of all crocks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.