Re: My random musinsgs on education

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/06/2001 01:33:32 AM Central Standard Time,

ExLngHrn@... writes:

> .

> Education, education, education. I'm sick of seeing Gene and some

> other people on here be the sole voices in the wilderness crying for

> education. If we don't get our s*** together, we're doomed to be down

> there

> with other medical TECHNICIANS, not the medical professionals

Hmm, I don't believe I have ever said anything against education. I said

exactly what you said in my last post. However, no one seems to understand

that we are still doing the same education as Nurses, except those with 4 yr.

degree's. Those that are way ahead in the learning field in my area have

gone to nursing, teaching at Colleges (which pays excellent). We cannot get

people to go to college in the numbers we need them to and Gene and the gang

are in dire straits to keep their program open. It costs big money to have a

college degree program, keep it top notch, and get people to attend that

could go do something else.

I could not work as a nurse, sorry, worked in hospitals for years, BOOOORING.

I have the one and only job I want and we work very hard to keep it

educational, with top notch protocols and GOOD continuing education.

" Reading Magazine articles for CE credit isn't going to cut it. "

No, but getting on the internet and signing up with EMCERT or others like

it. Taking tests that are geared to professional learning do help

tremendously. Why? Because certain employers to not have the time or the

money to worry about your educational future. It is numbers of transfers and

they have to make a profit. I do not blame them a bit. If no one pays, no

one gets paid.

Sign up for CD-ROM refresher courses with Gene and the gang. I just do not

see the motivation for CE when you do not have to do it. Yes, we require 144

hours in 4 years. Taking a few BTLS, ACLS, and PALS courses, puts a big dent

in that and how many services require a protocol test every 2 years. We do,

and it is no picnic either.

I have never slammed education, never will, and I continue to think that 2

years degrees + are vital to this profession. Just remember that many people

cannot be pulled by the hair to the trough. Paramedics that want to practice

their trade in the field will continue to do so. Some will go on to higher

paying jobs and some will leave the profession for other reasons. To me, it

is still the best damn job in the world and I wish I could convince others

that it is not just taking people back and forth to dialysis, it is good hard

work that is very rewarding. You tell me where I knocked education and go

back and read my post again. It is easy to pat someone on the back and say

" you hit the nail on the head " with your post. Gene has become a good friend

that I have never met and I would love to keep those college doors open. We

have a lot of hard work ahead of us and at 60+ it is going to take someone

other that us old codgers typing on the internet.

God Bless America

Andy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/06/2001 08:03:49 AM Central Standard Time,

je.hill@... writes:

> So the argument about licensed Paramedics not learning

> more after gaining licensure is a point with no

> validity

Ok, give me some figures. We have not had licensure long enough to make such

a statement as an educator. Do not make me the bad guy here. I have always

preached education. I have several LP's working for me that have gone with

60hrs to get it and never looked at another course since. Of course that may

change since they have only been LP's for one year. You throw out statements

that cannot be backed with fact and it hurts. I know medics that have

continued to educate themselves for years and will always do so, but that is

the individual not the system.

I never did like the small local courses. Felt they were there to fill the

needs of the employer or educator giving them. But, in fact, some were

excellent also. I still would never like to go back to that system either.

Keep the colleges open, but give facts and ways to change the system, not

random numbers that cannot be backed up yet.

Sorry, you cannot change people, you have to change the game.

Andy

[Guest guest]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ogilvie for a very informative, truthful, and

professional posting to the list server.

, B.S., L.P.

> If you want an RN to listen to you, you're going to have to be on an

> equal professional and educational footing. When you think a quick course

> to your red patch is all the education you need and there's no need to keep

> learning, you've conceded your inequality.

> Education, education, education. I'm sick of seeing Gene and some

> other people on here be the sole voices in the wilderness crying for

> education. If we don't get our s*** together, we're doomed to be down

> there

> with other medical TECHNICIANS, not the medical professionals. If you

> think

> you've got more in common with a nurse's aide or a lab tech, go right ahead

> and stick with your certification course. If you want to be associated

> with

> the nurses and doctors, education (both formal and continuing) is the only

> way to reach the goal.

> How many of you have read something for professional development

> besides the minimum materials your employer or licensing authority mandate?

>

> Have you challenged yourself with new concepts? Have you read things that

> are appropriate for a professional? Face it, reading magazine articles

> for

> CE credit isn't going to cut it. You have to read and ask questions

> beyond

> your " comfort level " to improve yourself. Read a Merck Manual, read a

> Physician's Desk Reference. Don't just be satisfied with " paramedic

> level "

> learning. Be a professional.

> Ok, let the flames begin..... I'm probably going to get some.

>

> -Wes Ogilvie

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/06/2001 08:45:29 AM Central Standard Time,

je.hill@... writes:

> . I never said that there are NO slackers in

> the LP arena -- but there are also many slackers in the

> certified arena as well. There always WILL be. But it

> is the job of the EMS administrator and Medical Director

> to ensure that the personnel in their systems are

> trained and continue to receive whatever training is

> necessary to promote professional and high quality

> patient care. I realize that continuing education is

> the responsibility of the certificant/licensee to

> maintain their certifications/license. However, the

> administrator and Medical Director are ultimately

> responsible for the care delivered in their system. I

>

Once again Jane, read my post. We are saying the exact same thing. CE hours

in those subjects have been required for years. CE hours are required by my

service and strong adherence is required. The statement made is that you

cannot make those who do not want to professionally educate themselves, do

so. I know what the requirements are and I read them to help our people. 4

year degree, remember. I cannot get across the fact that only a certain few

will get further in this profession and others will work 90 hour weeks to get

their families fed and have another job on their off days.

I have said all I can on the subject and you know I have a valid defense.

Keep the wheels rolling and greased. Best of luck as I am on your side.

Andy

[Guest guest]

Andy,

I'm not arguing w/ anyone. I hope you didn't think I was arguing

with you. Rather, my discussion was directed more towards the troglodytes

out there. I definitely am not including you in their company. Stay on

the list long enough and you'll see them emerge from the shadows in their

constant quest to keep EMS a small step away from the days of load and go

funeral homes.

-Wes

[Guest guest]

Very well said, Wes. I'm not sure where some

individuals got the idea that because we are licensed,

we never have to study again. That is utterly

ridiculous. I haven't met a licensed Paramedic yet who

is not constantly striving to keep up with materials on

current standards of care and trying to reinforce and

enhance their knowledge bases to be professional.

That's not to say that there are none out there - but

there are also many certified Paramedics who do just

what it takes to get by.

Doctors are required to get only small amounts of CE

depending on their specialties. Are most of them less

professional or less competent after spending several

years practicing and getting further and further away

from medical school? Or do many of them get better and

better with the time they spend in the ER, for

instance? How many of these doctors that you work with

do you know DON'T read up-to-date material in trade

magazines and spend time trying to learn new drugs, new

techniques, and new procedures? NOt many, I would wager.

So the argument about licensed Paramedics not learning

more after gaining licensure is a point with no

validity. There are exceptions to every rule, but I'll

stand behind someone with education from an established

and solid program that provides a well-rounded

educational opportunity every time. These are the folks

that are going to be eventually recognized

as " professionals " . That's the way other PROFESSIONS

have gone in the past, and the same road is necessary

for us.

You folks out there need to wake up. EMS is in crisis

due to shortage of personnel. But the shortage is only

going to get worse if college-based programs are forced

to close by administrators who look at the financial

bottom line. That will only INCREASE the shortage and

make our ability to serve our communities become an

impossible task. Whether you are licensed or certified,

you really should consider calling your local colleges

that provide EMS education and SCREAM. We need help

everwhere convincing our administrations that EMS is in

crisis and that colleges need to find ways to reach out

and find more potential employees. You administrators

need to call your local colleges and help design ways to

work with them to locate more students. It is is your

company's best interests to help find those future

potential personnel. We can't produce what we do not

have.... And there are NOT enough GOOD private programs

out there to provide the volume of Paramedics that we

need or are going to need to serve our communities.

Let's all start working together here. I think we all

have the same goal, do we not?

Jane Hill

> Ok group,

> As Gene and the others go, I'll gladly wade into the mix.

> Has anyone noticed that nursing pay (and authority to act) went up

> dramatically when nursing " trade " schools gave way to 2 year college programs

> and BSN programs?

> It's not the most popular sentiment, but non-college education,

> however good it is, is doomed to be a distant second place to college

> education in terms of prestige. Folks, with prestige comes pay - and

> respect.

> If you want an RN to listen to you, you're going to have to be on an

> equal professional and educational footing. When you think a quick course

> to your red patch is all the education you need and there's no need to keep

> learning, you've conceded your inequality.

> Education, education, education. I'm sick of seeing Gene and some

> other people on here be the sole voices in the wilderness crying for

> education. If we don't get our s*** together, we're doomed to be down there

> with other medical TECHNICIANS, not the medical professionals. If you think

> you've got more in common with a nurse's aide or a lab tech, go right ahead

> and stick with your certification course. If you want to be associated with

> the nurses and doctors, education (both formal and continuing) is the only

> way to reach the goal.

> How many of you have read something for professional development

> besides the minimum materials your employer or licensing authority mandate?

> Have you challenged yourself with new concepts? Have you read things that

> are appropriate for a professional? Face it, reading magazine articles for

> CE credit isn't going to cut it. You have to read and ask questions beyond

> your " comfort level " to improve yourself. Read a Merck Manual, read a

> Physician's Desk Reference. Don't just be satisfied with " paramedic level "

> learning. Be a professional.

> Ok, let the flames begin..... I'm probably going to get some.

>

> -Wes Ogilvie

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Andy, I am not trying to make you " the bad guy here " . I

was simply addressing your not-so-subtle accusation that

Licensed Paramedics do not get any more education after

they get their licenses. Per the current rule, the

following requirements are placed on LP's.

>>(f) Continuing education (CE) hours. During the four-

year licensure period, each licensee shall complete at

least the following minimum number of contact hours of

approved CE to be eligible for renewal of a license.

Licensees shall accrue at least one-half of the required

number of hours in the first two years of the licensure

period.

(1) Licensed paramedics are required to complete 96

hours to be eligible for renewal of their license.

(2) Employers and/or medical directors may require

licensees under their supervision to complete additional

requirements.

(3) All CE shall meet the requirements of §157.38 of

this title (relating to Continuing Education) except for

§157.38( hour requirements and © content

requirements.

(g) CE subject areas. CE hours shall be accrued within

one or more of the following medical subject areas:

(1) patient assessment and management;

(2) cardiac disorders;

(3) pulmonary disorders;

(4) endocrine disorders;

(5) neurological disorders;

(6) other medical disorders;

(7) behavioral disorders;

(8) obstetrics/gynecology;

(9) pediatrics;

(10) geriatrics;

(11) trauma; or

(12) protocols.

(h) Renewal.....

(4) A licensed paramedic shall meet the following

requirements for renewal of the license:

(A) complete within the previous four years the number

of approved CE hours for the licensed paramedic as

required in subsection (f)(1) of this section within one

or more of the medical subject areas listed in

subsection (g) of this section and submit a CE summary

form listing the completed hours;

( submit an application for renewal of the license to

the department along with the appropriate nonrefundable

fee as required in subsection ((2) of this section;

© achieve a passing grade on the department's written

examination or pass the National Registry examination;

however,

(i) the test shall be waived if the candidate submits

authorization from the medical director; and

(ii) documentation of an additional ten hours of CE per

year for a four year total of 136 CE hours;

(D) complete the examination before the current license

expiration date: <<

So, as I read this, LP's are still required to continue

their education by state mandate. If you have personnel

that haven't made efforts to continue learning after

they have received their licenses, then maybe you should

consider mandating certain CE requirements within your

own system. I never said that there are NO slackers in

the LP arena - but there are also many slackers in the

certified arena as well. There always WILL be. But it

is the job of the EMS administrator and Medical Director

to ensure that the personnel in their systems are

trained and continue to receive whatever training is

necessary to promote professional and high quality

patient care. I realize that continuing education is

the responsibility of the certificant/licensee to

maintain their certifications/license. However, the

administrator and Medical Director are ultimately

responsible for the care delivered in their system. I

have also been an administrator, and to me it's a no

brainer that agencies MUST enforce good quality

continuing education efforts for all their personnel,

whether certified or licensed. We hopefully hire high

quality personnel but are responsible to ensure that

they remain high quality.

No offense was ever meant to you, Andy. We are all on

the same page here. But we all need to realize that

education is the key, not the problem.

Respectfully yours,

Jane Hill

> In a message dated 11/06/2001 08:03:49 AM Central Standard Time,

> je.hill@... writes:

>

>

> > So the argument about licensed Paramedics not learning

> > more after gaining licensure is a point with no

> > validity

>

> Ok, give me some figures. We have not had licensure long enough to make such

> a statement as an educator. Do not make me the bad guy here. I have always

> preached education. I have several LP's working for me that have gone with

> 60hrs to get it and never looked at another course since. Of course that may

> change since they have only been LP's for one year. You throw out statements

> that cannot be backed with fact and it hurts. I know medics that have

> continued to educate themselves for years and will always do so, but that is

> the individual not the system.

>

> I never did like the small local courses. Felt they were there to fill the

> needs of the employer or educator giving them. But, in fact, some were

> excellent also. I still would never like to go back to that system either.

>

> Keep the colleges open, but give facts and ways to change the system, not

> random numbers that cannot be backed up yet.

>

> Sorry, you cannot change people, you have to change the game.

>

> Andy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Here, here, Wes. My sentiments exactly.

Jane

> Andy,

> I'm not arguing w/ anyone. I hope you didn't think I was arguing

> with you. Rather, my discussion was directed more towards the troglodytes

> out there. I definitely am not including you in their company. Stay on

> the list long enough and you'll see them emerge from the shadows in their

> constant quest to keep EMS a small step away from the days of load and go

> funeral homes.

>

> -Wes

>

>

>

>