Guest guest Posted May 16, 2002 Report Share Posted May 16, 2002 Hi, Received my INR reading, and again slightly under 2. Less than I anticipated, and that with a somewhat reduced dosage of Coumadin and a full dose of 400 iU of natural Vitamin E. Looking for reasons - I came across many warnings about this combination, which is not working for me, and one article emphasizing to take Vitamin E with a 'fatty' meal, " it will triple absorption " . Now, my meals tend to be not 'fatty'. Could that be the reason? I welcome anyone's comment. / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 Thanks, Bill, for a very interesting comment. That puts a twist on things. I was not able to verify it one way or the other. In the past bruises I received from my tests were normally good indicators, this time I showed a solid bruise and a low INR - that had me startled. - Trying to get some info about the effect of Vitamin E, I called my lab - they would not or could not give me an answer. Info I did find on the Internet pertained to Aspirin only. Accordingly, new technique is in the works that will in the future measure " platelet function " , currently available analyzers tend not to be accurate. / > Correct me if I am wrong here, I had a bit of a " discussion " with > my cardiologist today about this. Coumadin is an anti-coagulant > and the INR reading measures its effect. Vitamin E tends to > thin the blood, and that is NOT reflected in the test for INR. > Today I specifically asked him about measuring for aspirin's > effects on blood " thinning " . He said that can be tested but it > is a different test than the one for INR and more difficult. > > So what I am understanding is that the test for our INR number > is specifically measuring only the anticoagulation effects of > coumadin or warfarin and not any effects on the blood of taking > aspirin, Vitamin E, gingko biloba or other similar things. > > Bill Utterback > South San Francisco > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2002 Report Share Posted May 17, 2002 Hi Fran, You seem so knowledgeable on this subject. Can you recommand " something nutritional " that will bring my INR up and my Coumadin down.?? / > > In a message dated 5/16/02 9:28:53 PM, moneypal@a... writes: > > << So what I am understanding is that the test for our INR number > is specifically measuring only the anticoagulation effects of > coumadin or warfarin and not any effects on the blood of taking > aspirin, Vitamin E, gingko biloba or other similar things. > >> > > Bill, the prothrombin time test can detect any difference in your clotting > mechanism due to variations in your Vitamin K level, and this is usually > reported as the INR. Anything that would reduce your Vitamin K level (as > Coumadin does) would show up in a higher INR. The other things you mention > do not prolong your coagulation time ( " thin " your blood) by interfering with > Vitamin K; they do other things to what is a very complicated coag process > with many steps and many places along the way for something to affect it. > Bottom line, your doctor is right! > Brenta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2002 Report Share Posted May 18, 2002 Hi, ......effects of anticoagulant drugs, such as Coumadin, can be potentiated by Vitamin E ........ My qestion: " Would such an increase be reflected in my INR reading - P/T test? " I would like to share the response I received from an " authority " , " The reason that you cannot find an answer is that there is no good answer for this question. Vitamin E affects the platelets and this does not show up on the INR. Platelets are a different clotting pathway. .... I am involved in training students and would like to include your question ... So this is where it stands, and I guess that's why my doc always says " let's see where it gets us " . / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2002 Report Share Posted May 20, 2002 Hi, Thanks Fran for your very detailed info on Vitamin E. I looked at all the pros and cons and came to one conclusion, that the effect Vitamin E has on my INR reading is questionable. has been successful with her diet, maybe Salmon affects Vitamin K in a different way. Sofar, I have only included " fatty " fish (Salmon) twice weekly. Probably not enough to make a difference. Brenta, you also pointed out, that many of the natural blood thinners, would not affect Vit. K - INR test. Would you know of any that do? Again, thanks for all your help. / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2002 Report Share Posted May 20, 2002 Hi Brenta, The foods you mention all reduce the effectiveness of Coumadin to my knowledge, I am trying to find something that enhances Coumadin's effectiveness. In other words, something that would allow me to reduce the amount of Coumadin I am taking, and still achieve the required INR Numbers. / > > In a message dated 5/20/02 8:21:04 AM, madisonn99@A... writes: > > << Brenta, you also pointed out, that many of the natural blood > thinners, would not affect Vit. K - INR test. Would you know of any > that do? >> > > In addition to certain green leafy vegetables, I believe flaxseed/flaxseed > oil can have an effect, as can canola oil. Certain antibiotics, e.g. > amoxicillin, can do so as well. I'm sure there are a number of others that > other members of the group can recall, so please add to this list if you know > of others. The degree to which these substances affect the pro time/INR will > vary considerably from person to person, though. For example I take flaxseed > oil capsules with no effect so far on my INR. > Brenta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2002 Report Share Posted May 21, 2002 Hi Fran, You are close. I need to keep my blood thin enough to prevent it from forming clots. Since I experience " side " effects with Coumadin, I would prefer to supplement it with something nutritional that works simularely. So I can reduce my dosage of Coumadin, have less side effects and still get my blood thin enough as to not form clots. (Unfortunaly, Vit E did accomplish that) Hope this helps. / -- In AFIBsupport@y..., " Frances Ross " <Frances@a...> wrote: > " " " " I am trying to find something that enhances Coumadin's > effectiveness. In other words, something that would allow me to > reduce the amount of Coumadin I am taking, and still achieve the > required INR Numbers. " " " " " > > > Hi > > I am getting confused. I know the question was not aimed at me and I know > very little about coumadin and what it entails (and for future ref as my GP > maintains I should be on it, but my cardio said no). From my own > understanding coumadin is a drug that you take to keep your blood thin > enough so that it does not cause clotting too quickly if any blood remains > in the chambers of the heart for too long. But on the other hand you don't > want your blood being too thin so that you may hemmorage (sp). > > What do you mean by reducing the effect of coumadin? Do you mean enhancing > the effect of coumadin so that your blood becomes thinner so that you can > reduce the coumadin. If that is the case I would think that by eating all > the things in bulk that they say to cut back on when you are taking coumadin > would be the way to go. But it may be very dangerous. But I understand you > are doing it with your Dr's help and blessing. Perhaps this a bit too simple > though. > > I know that I am aware that certain foods keep the blood thinner, and I go > out of my way to eat these as a safety mechanism. As I do with other foods > to rid my body of free radicals etc. And it seems to be working. > > Now can I ask a silly question here. If INR is so important in AF why don't > Dr's test people's INR as a matter of course? I don't believe I have ever > had this done. Just a thought. > > Fran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2002 Report Share Posted May 21, 2002 Fran, to the last part of your question. Vitamin E, Aspirin, and other vitamins / herbs according to the information I received " work on the platelets in our blood " and make them less sticky, so that here too the blood is less able to form clots. But stickiness of platelets can not yet be accurately measured, and an INR test would not pick that up. So if you want to check how your aspirin is performorning, you will have to wait. I understand, currently companies are experimenting with new techniques in that field, and I assume shortly there will be a way to have those tested also. / > Now can I ask a silly question here. If INR is so important in AF why don't > Dr's test people's INR as a matter of course? I don't believe I have ever > had this done. Just a thought. > > Fran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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