RN-Paramedic

[Guest guest]

Nope, I disagree. I think " King " would be more appropriate!

> Gene for President!

>

>

>

> J.

> EMS Director

> County EMS

> " Still Short 1 medic "

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jay, you bring up an interesting point... the MINORITY of EMS personnel in

Texas are Paramedics (I'm spelling that with a capital letter from now on!),

even fewer are Licensed Paramedics. Why should EMT-B's, EMT-I's and certified

EMT-P's care about a transition program? Personally, I don't want to be a

nurse. I could care less about getting an RN license. BUT:

Simply allowing RN's to " test in " to a Paramedic role inherently lowers the

value of Paramedics. If " any nurse can be a Paramedic, " that naturally makes

Paramedicine subservient to Nursing. As many will tell you, they are parallel

fields - practitioners at roughly the same level with a different focus... but I

digress.

Basics, Intermediates and Certified Paramedics alike need to show, voice and

scream their full support for limited transition from RN to Paramedic, and full

recognition of Paramedic status by the BNE. Why? EMS will *never* be

considered a medical specialty, just " another Allied Health certification. " If

bringing Paramedics, even just the Licensed ones, up to par with RN's begins to

achieve the goal of having EMS recognized as a medical profession, a field of

practice, then it by default elevates the status of everyone " below " them on the

certification ladder (and no, I'm *not* trying to start the arguement that

Licensed Paramedics are " above " certified Paramedics, but in the eyes of the

*law*, having a license is a different status from being certified, and this is

a *legal* issue as it relates to scope of practice, etc.).

Basics, Intermediates and EMT-P's alike can *all* benefit from the elevation of

any tier of EMS to a more professional status. Basics, Intermediates and

everyone need to ACTIVELY voice this to ALL of their representatives, and to

TDH, and NEED TO JOIN EMSAT, their ONLY collective voice.

Mike

Re: RN-Paramedic

I have been criticized for not speaking out at the EMS SubCommittee meeting

on Thursday in Austin regarding my position that the BNE ought to at least

recognize Licensed Paramedics before we grant RNs the right to challenge the

Paramedic Exam with minimum preparation.

Let me try to explain. First, I had not had lots of time to explore the

issue prior to the meeting. I wanted to hear what all the speakers said and

wanted the opportunity to engage them in conversation and draw them out

before I spoke. I simply did not feel that I had nailed down my position at

that time and therefore hoped not to confirm the suspicians of many that I

am a fool by proving it beyond a reasonable doubt by my public statements.

Melody, I think that, in retrospect you'll agree with me, although I

understand that you would like to have had me speak.

I shall make my comments known to Ms. Perkins and Mr. Arnold, as well as the

members of GETAC, by direct email, and I trust that this form of

communication has now achieved sufficient status that it will be recognized

and taken into consideration.

My position is this:

1. TDH should not allow RNs nor LVNs to challenge the Paramedic

Certification or Licensure Examination without first requiring them to have

completed an approved EMT-B course, and without having satisfied the

requirements of a transition program designed to insure that they possess

and

can deliver the skills and knowledge of a paramedic in the pre-hospital

setting. This evaluation must be carried out by a Coordinator affiliated

with at least a community college. Coordinators in freestanding Paramedic

programs ought not have this power because they are not subject to the

requirements of the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board nor are they

granted accreditation by the Southern Association of Colleges, which is the

accrediting organization of all community colleges. Any free-standing

program that has national accreditation would be an exception to this.

2. Unless and until the BNE agrees to recognize Licenced Paramedics as

being

duly licensed medical personnel, and grant them recognition as such, there

should be NO opportunity for RNs or LVNs to challenge the Paramedic

examinations.

3. The BNE must agree to a parallel challenge pathway for Licensed

Paramedics to become Registered Nurses before there is any pathway for

nurses

to transition to Paramedic.

4. The BNE must agree to meet with GETAC and develop a fair and equal

program for RN-Paramedic transition and Paramedic-RN transition, which

program must be implemented within no more than 2 years from now.

5. Unless BNE agrees to recognize LPs as licensed personnel, give up their

policy that nurses are above and superior to paramedics, and do so in clear

writing, there should be NO opportunities for RNs to transition to Paramedic

without completing the entire paramedic curriculum. BNE must recognize the

skills that may be performed in ANY setting by Paramedics, and abandon its

stance that nurses rule paramedics.

6. While a shortage of nurses apparently exists, it is clear that many of

the functions of the RN can be performed by Paramedics in the emergency

setting. Therefore there is NO justification nor reason for the BNE to

oppose full practice privileges for Paramedics in the hospital setting.

7. When the BNE recognizes Licensed Paramedics as being medical

professionals, then and then only, should the Paramedic community address

the

transition of RNs to Paramedic without completing the full Paramedic

curriculum.

8. While I recognize that there are nurses who could perform paramedic

skills adequately because of their experience, particularly in the area of

helicoptor EMS, it is not appropriate that a nurse be allowed special

considerations in challenging the paramedic license unless and until

paramedics are granted the same special considerations in challenging the

nursing license.

9. Whereas the BNE is formulated for and dedicated to the nursing

profession, TDH has no such mandate to represent EMS. I recommend that

either a separate, free-standing agency be created by the legislature to

govern EMS at the same level that the BNE governs nursing, or that TDH be

given a clear mandate by the Legislature to represent the interests of EMS

in

such a way as to promote the profession and insure the survival of EMS

professionals.

10. If budget cuts in TDH continue at the present level, it will be

impossible for the Bureau to carry out its mandate to govern EMS, much less

to promote it. One wonders who and what the forces are that continue to

decimate TDH's budget and ability to carry out it's mandated functions to

supervise EMS. Promotion of EMS is clearly falling by the wayside, if for

no

other reason than the remaining people at TDH BEM are stretched so far that

they cannot be expected to perform even the minimum functions that we expect

from them.

11. Flight nurses have a valid argument that they ought to be granted

special privileges; however, they need to use their power and influence to

force the BNE into a rational policy regarding Paramedics. Unfortunately,

war is hell, and we as Paramedics are in a war with the BNE. We have nobody

to stand up for us, so we must stand on our own. We must vehemently oppose

any plan which would give nurses an advantage over Paramedics in the

workplace until the BNE agrees to recognize us and grant us full and equal

opportunities to challenge the nursing licensure procedure.

GG

E. Gandy, JD, LP

EMS Professions Program

Tyler Junior College

Tyler, TX

[Guest guest]

Gene for President!

J.

EMS Director

County EMS

" Still Short 1 medic "

Reply-To:

To: < >

Subject: Re: RN-Paramedic

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 01:48:48 -0500

Although I am not a Paramedic, well said, Gene.

Jay

Re: RN-Paramedic

I have been criticized for not speaking out at the EMS SubCommittee

meeting

on Thursday in Austin regarding my position that the BNE ought to at

least

recognize Licensed Paramedics before we grant RNs the right to challenge

the

Paramedic Exam with minimum preparation.

Let me try to explain. First, I had not had lots of time to explore the

issue prior to the meeting. I wanted to hear what all the speakers said

and

wanted the opportunity to engage them in conversation and draw them out

before I spoke. I simply did not feel that I had nailed down my position

at

that time and therefore hoped not to confirm the suspicians of many that

I

am a fool by proving it beyond a reasonable doubt by my public

statements.

Melody, I think that, in retrospect you'll agree with me, although I

understand that you would like to have had me speak.

I shall make my comments known to Ms. Perkins and Mr. Arnold, as well as

the

members of GETAC, by direct email, and I trust that this form of

communication has now achieved sufficient status that it will be

recognized

and taken into consideration.

My position is this:

1. TDH should not allow RNs nor LVNs to challenge the Paramedic

Certification or Licensure Examination without first requiring them to

have

completed an approved EMT-B course, and without having satisfied the

requirements of a transition program designed to insure that they possess

and

can deliver the skills and knowledge of a paramedic in the pre-hospital

setting. This evaluation must be carried out by a Coordinator affiliated

with at least a community college. Coordinators in freestanding

Paramedic

programs ought not have this power because they are not subject to the

requirements of the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board nor are

they

granted accreditation by the Southern Association of Colleges, which is

the

accrediting organization of all community colleges. Any free-standing

program that has national accreditation would be an exception to this.

2. Unless and until the BNE agrees to recognize Licenced Paramedics as

being

duly licensed medical personnel, and grant them recognition as such,

there

should be NO opportunity for RNs or LVNs to challenge the Paramedic

examinations.

3. The BNE must agree to a parallel challenge pathway for Licensed

Paramedics to become Registered Nurses before there is any pathway for

nurses

to transition to Paramedic.

4. The BNE must agree to meet with GETAC and develop a fair and equal

program for RN-Paramedic transition and Paramedic-RN transition, which

program must be implemented within no more than 2 years from now.

5. Unless BNE agrees to recognize LPs as licensed personnel, give up

their

policy that nurses are above and superior to paramedics, and do so in

clear

writing, there should be NO opportunities for RNs to transition to

Paramedic

without completing the entire paramedic curriculum. BNE must recognize

the

skills that may be performed in ANY setting by Paramedics, and abandon

its

stance that nurses rule paramedics.

6. While a shortage of nurses apparently exists, it is clear that many

of

the functions of the RN can be performed by Paramedics in the emergency

setting. Therefore there is NO justification nor reason for the BNE to

oppose full practice privileges for Paramedics in the hospital setting.

7. When the BNE recognizes Licensed Paramedics as being medical

professionals, then and then only, should the Paramedic community address

the

transition of RNs to Paramedic without completing the full Paramedic

curriculum.

8. While I recognize that there are nurses who could perform paramedic

skills adequately because of their experience, particularly in the area

of

helicoptor EMS, it is not appropriate that a nurse be allowed special

considerations in challenging the paramedic license unless and until

paramedics are granted the same special considerations in challenging the

nursing license.

9. Whereas the BNE is formulated for and dedicated to the nursing

profession, TDH has no such mandate to represent EMS. I recommend that

either a separate, free-standing agency be created by the legislature to

govern EMS at the same level that the BNE governs nursing, or that TDH be

given a clear mandate by the Legislature to represent the interests of

EMS in

such a way as to promote the profession and insure the survival of EMS

professionals.

10. If budget cuts in TDH continue at the present level, it will be

impossible for the Bureau to carry out its mandate to govern EMS, much

less

to promote it. One wonders who and what the forces are that continue to

decimate TDH's budget and ability to carry out it's mandated functions to

supervise EMS. Promotion of EMS is clearly falling by the wayside, if

for no

other reason than the remaining people at TDH BEM are stretched so far

that

they cannot be expected to perform even the minimum functions that we

expect

from them.

11. Flight nurses have a valid argument that they ought to be granted

special privileges; however, they need to use their power and influence

to

force the BNE into a rational policy regarding Paramedics.

Unfortunately,

war is hell, and we as Paramedics are in a war with the BNE. We have

nobody

to stand up for us, so we must stand on our own. We must vehemently

oppose

any plan which would give nurses an advantage over Paramedics in the

workplace until the BNE agrees to recognize us and grant us full and

equal

opportunities to challenge the nursing licensure procedure.

GG

E. Gandy, JD, LP

EMS Professions Program

Tyler Junior College

Tyler, TX

[Guest guest]

Are GETAC members reimbursed for travel expenses?

Hmmmm.

I would love to come give my opinion!

J.

EMS Director

County EMS

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

The answer is No. Everyones comes at their own expense.

Would love to have your opinion. Email opinions are just as valid as the

face to face with me. I would like to know the various viewpoints, not

just, " I agree. " The topic each need to be fully considered before a

decision is rendered.

Bob

wrote:

> Are GETAC members reimbursed for travel expenses?

> Hmmmm.

> I would love to come give my opinion!

>

>

> J.

> EMS Director

> County EMS

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Up until the last meeting they were. The committee members never have been.

Now the only person that will be reimbursed will be the " public member "

representative.....so support your local

GETAC and committee members. :-)

Melody

> Are GETAC members reimbursed for travel expenses?

> Hmmmm.

> I would love to come give my opinion!

>

>

> J.

> EMS Director

> County EMS

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.as

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/29/01 3:26:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

jjemt_410@... writes:

> Ok, where do we send our letters and email too?

>

> I am finishing up my AAS in Paramedicine, and will

> thereafter start nursing school. I'm taking the WHOLE

> nursing curriculum. I stand with Gene Gandy, my

> paramedic instructor, on my feelings about this whole

> RN/EMT-P topic.

>

> - Barr, EMT-I

>

>

Thanks, . You are a good student.

, B.S., L.P.

Instructor

Tyler Junior College

EMSP Program

[Guest guest]

My comments on this list are public record and may be quoted without my

permission.

gg

E. Gandy, JD, LP

EMS Professions Program

Tyler Junior College

Tyler, TX

[Guest guest]

Please forgive my ignorance but why would any " flight program " want to advocate

this position?

We hire Paramedics for their expertise and experience in paramedicine and we

hire Nurses for their expertise and experience in nursing. Our experience has

been that the two complement each other extremely well. The two team members

are each held to the same standards and have identical responsibilities. As odd

as it sounds, it is the differences (and similarities) in our backgrounds that

are synergistic and well suited for the job.

I think however, that there is some argument to a nurse wanting to skip certain

portions of the Paramedic curriculum. For example A & P, does a Nurse really need

to sit through the Paramedic A & P portion of the class if they have already taken

an accredited A & P class. Likewise, Paramedics should be given credit toward

certain portions of the Nursing curriculum. Actually, I believe that this is

already taking place with some of the nursing schools like ACC that DO take into

consideration your previous experience and education.

If, however, we choose to simply credential someone that does not have ALL the

tools/education/training then we are doing no one any great service, much less

OUR profession.

Regards,

Bill Waechter

AirLife

bwaecht@...

>>> rxmd911@... 08/28/01 04:57PM >>>

Henry and others,

I had to reply and say, very well put. If it were not for the flight

programs wanting this, it would have never came up.

I do think that TDH should support EMS in Texas and take the same stance

that the BNE has against paramedics.

We should not be able to allow ANYONE obtain a EMT or Paramedic

certification without taking the ENTIRE program. As you said, there were no

shortcuts for us. If we are going to allow shortcuts for one group, them

why not let everyone take the shortcut to paramedic training.

And yes, where is Jeff now that we need him.

Wayne

>

>Reply-To:

>To:

>Subject: Re: Re: RN-Paramedic

>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:02:31 -0500

>

>Well I said my piece at the meeting. However, Cheek and I were both

>on the same wave length in regards to this issue. I felt that it would

>not even be an issue if it had not been for the flight services wanting

>a quick easy fix to allow nurses to fly on a TDH licensed provider

>helicopter.( I would question in 90% of the flights if a quality

>paramedic could not ride the call and provide the service. Is it

>necessary or are we in the case of the hospital based flight services

>saying that a nurse is the higher level of care and the need for a

>paramedic certification is just incidental.)

>

>Ok I got the snotty part out of the way. In reality we are dealing with

>a small special interest group. I think we would be better off

>addressing the issue of the flight aircraft and if it really should be

>classified as a ambulance and thus fall under the provider rule. If not,

>I would be willing to bet my boat that the nurse challenge would go

>away. I bet its about money. Certainly its not about patient care. If

>the flight services can afford to put that much money into having flight

>services, then the small amount of money time and effort it would take

>to send the nurses through a paramedic school would be cost effective.

>Its really about shortcuts. The 10,000 paramedics and licensed

>paramedics did not have the opportunity to take shortcuts. TDH made sure

>that they followed the rules. TDH also keeps bringing the nursing

>challenge back to the table. It appears to me that TDH should be out

>there protecting the paramedics in this state. (Sorry Kathy, this is not

>a personal shot. Just my opinion.)

>

>I feel that TDH as our regulatory agency has the obligation to protect

>our (paramedics) interest. Some will make the statement that TDH is

>there to protect the patient. I fully agree, as are the Paramedics in

>TEXAS.

>

>I have nothing but respect for nurses and other professionals. However,

>I feel they will bend over backwards to protect their profession. They

>do so by a strong voice and the BNE. Their regulatory agency works for

>them. At this point and due to our own inability to come together as a

>group, TDH is our only hope for profession protection.

>

>Do I think we need as a EMS Committee member move forward with

>addressing the nursing challenge? No I don't. I will however continue to

>voice my opinion at the meetings (stay in the hunt) Do I think this

>issue if moved forward with will affect EMS in the long run? No I don't.

>This is due to trying to appease a small special interest group that was

>as happy as punch as long as TDH was circumventing the existing rule.

>(Thank you so much Jeff Jarvis for stirring this pot then clamming up.)

>

>I guess in closing this jumbled rant of thoughts, I would say to you

>that not every issue brought to TDH or the Committees or GETAC needs to

>be addressed. Not every rule needs to be re-looked at. Its like drugs,

>sometimes you just have to say NO!

>

>Henry

>

>wegandy@... wrote:

>

> > I thought that all the points had been made, and that I shouldn't

> > speak. I

> > didn't want to appear to be against the progress that I thought was

> > being

> > made. I have the reputation of speaking out too much, so that's why I

> > didn't.

> >

> > gg

> >

> > E. Gandy, JD, LP

> > EMS Professions Program

> > Tyler Junior College

> > Tyler, TX

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ok, where do we send our letters and email too?

I am finishing up my AAS in Paramedicine, and will

thereafter start nursing school. I'm taking the WHOLE

nursing curriculum. I stand with Gene Gandy, my

paramedic instructor, on my feelings about this whole

RN/EMT-P topic.

- Barr, EMT-I

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Forgive me ....Everyone and Jane are

also my instructors!!!!!!

I'm not sure where you and Jane stand....but I'm sure

I know the answer to that question without asking.

P.S.- You guys are awesome teachers as well!!

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hey Gene, did you know that the BNE really dosen't consider LVN's to be

" Licensed Personnel " ?

Re: RN-Paramedic

I have been criticized for not speaking out at the EMS SubCommittee

meeting

on Thursday in Austin regarding my position that the BNE ought to at least

recognize Licensed Paramedics before we grant RNs the right to challenge

the

Paramedic Exam with minimum preparation.

Let me try to explain. First, I had not had lots of time to explore the

issue prior to the meeting. I wanted to hear what all the speakers said

and

wanted the opportunity to engage them in conversation and draw them out

before I spoke. I simply did not feel that I had nailed down my position

at

that time and therefore hoped not to confirm the suspicians of many that

I

am a fool by proving it beyond a reasonable doubt by my public statements.

Melody, I think that, in retrospect you'll agree with me, although I

understand that you would like to have had me speak.

I shall make my comments known to Ms. Perkins and Mr. Arnold, as well as

the

members of GETAC, by direct email, and I trust that this form of

communication has now achieved sufficient status that it will be

recognized

and taken into consideration.

My position is this:

1. TDH should not allow RNs nor LVNs to challenge the Paramedic

Certification or Licensure Examination without first requiring them to

have

completed an approved EMT-B course, and without having satisfied the

requirements of a transition program designed to insure that they possess

and

can deliver the skills and knowledge of a paramedic in the pre-hospital

setting. This evaluation must be carried out by a Coordinator affiliated

with at least a community college. Coordinators in freestanding Paramedic

programs ought not have this power because they are not subject to the

requirements of the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board nor are they

granted accreditation by the Southern Association of Colleges, which is

the

accrediting organization of all community colleges. Any free-standing

program that has national accreditation would be an exception to this.

2. Unless and until the BNE agrees to recognize Licenced Paramedics as

being

duly licensed medical personnel, and grant them recognition as such, there

should be NO opportunity for RNs or LVNs to challenge the Paramedic

examinations.

3. The BNE must agree to a parallel challenge pathway for Licensed

Paramedics to become Registered Nurses before there is any pathway for

nurses

to transition to Paramedic.

4. The BNE must agree to meet with GETAC and develop a fair and equal

program for RN-Paramedic transition and Paramedic-RN transition, which

program must be implemented within no more than 2 years from now.

5. Unless BNE agrees to recognize LPs as licensed personnel, give up

their

policy that nurses are above and superior to paramedics, and do so in

clear

writing, there should be NO opportunities for RNs to transition to

Paramedic

without completing the entire paramedic curriculum. BNE must recognize

the

skills that may be performed in ANY setting by Paramedics, and abandon its

stance that nurses rule paramedics.

6. While a shortage of nurses apparently exists, it is clear that many of

the functions of the RN can be performed by Paramedics in the emergency

setting. Therefore there is NO justification nor reason for the BNE to

oppose full practice privileges for Paramedics in the hospital setting.

7. When the BNE recognizes Licensed Paramedics as being medical

professionals, then and then only, should the Paramedic community address

the

transition of RNs to Paramedic without completing the full Paramedic

curriculum.

8. While I recognize that there are nurses who could perform paramedic

skills adequately because of their experience, particularly in the area of

helicoptor EMS, it is not appropriate that a nurse be allowed special

considerations in challenging the paramedic license unless and until

paramedics are granted the same special considerations in challenging the

nursing license.

9. Whereas the BNE is formulated for and dedicated to the nursing

profession, TDH has no such mandate to represent EMS. I recommend that

either a separate, free-standing agency be created by the legislature to

govern EMS at the same level that the BNE governs nursing, or that TDH be

given a clear mandate by the Legislature to represent the interests of EMS

in

such a way as to promote the profession and insure the survival of EMS

professionals.

10. If budget cuts in TDH continue at the present level, it will be

impossible for the Bureau to carry out its mandate to govern EMS, much

less

to promote it. One wonders who and what the forces are that continue to

decimate TDH's budget and ability to carry out it's mandated functions to

supervise EMS. Promotion of EMS is clearly falling by the wayside, if for

no

other reason than the remaining people at TDH BEM are stretched so far

that

they cannot be expected to perform even the minimum functions that we

expect

from them.

11. Flight nurses have a valid argument that they ought to be granted

special privileges; however, they need to use their power and influence to

force the BNE into a rational policy regarding Paramedics. Unfortunately,

war is hell, and we as Paramedics are in a war with the BNE. We have

nobody

to stand up for us, so we must stand on our own. We must vehemently

oppose

any plan which would give nurses an advantage over Paramedics in the

workplace until the BNE agrees to recognize us and grant us full and equal

opportunities to challenge the nursing licensure procedure.

GG

E. Gandy, JD, LP

EMS Professions Program

Tyler Junior College

Tyler, TX

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/30/01 4:33:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

rkirk@... writes:

> Hey Gene, did you know that the BNE really dosen't consider LVN's to be

> " Licensed Personnel " ?

>

>

Hhmmm, " Licensed Vocational Nurse " , now that is interesting. Is that an

oxymoron?!! I think the BNE has problems.

RAA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/30/2001 6:33:33 Central Daylight Time,

rkirk@... writes:

> Hey Gene, did you know that the BNE really dosen't consider LVN's to be

> " Licensed Personnel " ?

>

Yes, in fact, I do know that. BNE " considers " lots of things that, IMHO, are

not supported by law. They have lawyers who interpret things for them, and

they also have a clear mindset to protect their stated constituency, and who

can blame them, but they make some determinations that I consider

questionable. Not to mention that the TNA has LOTS of influence on them.

For example, TNA's lawyer showed up at the GETAC EMS Subcommittee meeting and

averred that paramedics are limited to prehospital practice by law. NOT!!!

Read Chapter 773 and you'll see just how wrong he is. Read the definitions

of what Certified and Licensed Paramedics are, and you'll nowhere see the

word " prehospital " used. Yet this guy expounds his opinions as being law

without challenge.

Now, I didn't challenge him the other day because he caught me by surprise

and I didn't have my ducks in a row, so I declined to comment until I did

have those Quackers lined up. Now I do, and I'm confident that he's wrong.

We really need some court cases to determine who's right and who's wrong in

these interpretations of laws that are, admittedly, ambiguous in many

instances. The problem is, who will finance those lawsuits? TNA has

hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend because virtually every nurse

belongs. EMSAT could easily do it, but we have only about 1% mas o menos of

the certified/licensed EMS personnel in Texas as members. So who wins?

Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the Gold Rules.

They do and we don't.

Gene

> Re: RN-Paramedic

>

>

> I have been criticized for not speaking out at the EMS SubCommittee

> meeting

> on Thursday in Austin regarding my position that the BNE ought to at

> least

> recognize Licensed Paramedics before we grant RNs the right to

> challenge the

> Paramedic Exam with minimum preparation.

>

> Let me try to explain. First, I had not had lots of time to explore

> the

> issue prior to the meeting. I wanted to hear what all the speakers

> said and

> wanted the opportunity to engage them in conversation and draw them

> out

> before I spoke. I simply did not feel that I had nailed down my

> position at

> that time and therefore hoped not to confirm the suspicians of many

> that I

> am a fool by proving it beyond a reasonable doubt by my public

> statements.

>

> Melody, I think that, in retrospect you'll agree with me, although I

> understand that you would like to have had me speak.

>

> I shall make my comments known to Ms. Perkins and Mr. Arnold, as well

> as the

> members of GETAC, by direct email, and I trust that this form of

> communication has now achieved sufficient status that it will be

> recognized

> and taken into consideration.

>

> My position is this:

>

> 1. TDH should not allow RNs nor LVNs to challenge the Paramedic

> Certification or Licensure Examination without first requiring them

> to have

> completed an approved EMT-B course, and without having satisfied the

> requirements of a transition program designed to insure that they

> possess and

> can deliver the skills and knowledge of a paramedic in the

> pre-hospital

> setting. This evaluation must be carried out by a Coordinator

> affiliated

> with at least a community college. Coordinators in freestanding

> Paramedic

> programs ought not have this power because they are not subject to

> the

> requirements of the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board nor are

> they

> granted accreditation by the Southern Association of Colleges, which

> is the

> accrediting organization of all community colleges. Any

> free-standing

> program that has national accreditation would be an exception to this.

>

> 2. Unless and until the BNE agrees to recognize Licenced Paramedics

> as being

> duly licensed medical personnel, and grant them recognition as such,

> there

> should be NO opportunity for RNs or LVNs to challenge the Paramedic

> examinations.

>

> 3. The BNE must agree to a parallel challenge pathway for Licensed

> Paramedics to become Registered Nurses before there is any pathway

> for nurses

> to transition to Paramedic.

>

> 4. The BNE must agree to meet with GETAC and develop a fair and

> equal

> program for RN-Paramedic transition and Paramedic-RN transition,

> which

> program must be implemented within no more than 2 years from now.

>

> 5. Unless BNE agrees to recognize LPs as licensed personnel, give up

> their

> policy that nurses are above and superior to paramedics, and do so in

> clear

> writing, there should be NO opportunities for RNs to transition to

> Paramedic

> without completing the entire paramedic curriculum. BNE must

> recognize the

> skills that may be performed in ANY setting by Paramedics, and

> abandon its

> stance that nurses rule paramedics.

>

> 6. While a shortage of nurses apparently exists, it is clear that

> many of

> the functions of the RN can be performed by Paramedics in the

> emergency

> setting. Therefore there is NO justification nor reason for the BNE

> to

> oppose full practice privileges for Paramedics in the hospital

> setting.

>

> 7. When the BNE recognizes Licensed Paramedics as being medical

> professionals, then and then only, should the Paramedic community

> address the

> transition of RNs to Paramedic without completing the full Paramedic

> curriculum.

>

> 8. While I recognize that there are nurses who could perform

> paramedic

> skills adequately because of their experience, particularly in the

> area of

> helicoptor EMS, it is not appropriate that a nurse be allowed special

> considerations in challenging the paramedic license unless and until

> paramedics are granted the same special considerations in challenging

> the

> nursing license.

>

> 9. Whereas the BNE is formulated for and dedicated to the nursing

> profession, TDH has no such mandate to represent EMS. I recommend

> that

> either a separate, free-standing agency be created by the legislature

> to

> govern EMS at the same level that the BNE governs nursing, or that

> TDH be

> given a clear mandate by the Legislature to represent the interests

> of EMS in

> such a way as to promote the profession and insure the survival of

> EMS

> professionals.

>

> 10. If budget cuts in TDH continue at the present level, it will be

> impossible for the Bureau to carry out its mandate to govern EMS,

> much less

> to promote it. One wonders who and what the forces are that continue

> to

> decimate TDH's budget and ability to carry out it's mandated

> functions to

> supervise EMS. Promotion of EMS is clearly falling by the wayside,

> if for no

> other reason than the remaining people at TDH BEM are stretched so

> far that

> they cannot be expected to perform even the minimum functions that we

> expect

> from them.

>

> 11. Flight nurses have a valid argument that they ought to be

> granted

> special privileges; however, they need to use their power and

> influence to

> force the BNE into a rational policy regarding Paramedics.

> Unfortunately,

> war is hell, and we as Paramedics are in a war with the BNE. We have

> nobody

> to stand up for us, so we must stand on our own. We must vehemently

> oppose

> any plan which would give nurses an advantage over Paramedics in the

> workplace until the BNE agrees to recognize us and grant us full and

> equal

> opportunities to challenge the nursing licensure procedure.

>

> GG

> E. Gandy, JD, LP

> EMS Professions Program

> Tyler Junior College

> Tyler, TX

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Gene,

I am not a lawyer, but somebody mentioned in a post about pursuing an AG opinion

on this matter. What does it take to get the AG to rule an opinion on this

matter. I am correct in understanding if he rules for the BNE to view this as a

license, would they have to go by his ruling.

s, LP

Just another hick from the sticks

[Guest guest]

Howdy Henry!

Gross anatomy will do that to you. However, since we agree on this

issue, I can peacefully wallow in formaldehyde knowing you couldn't

sit quietly by if your life depended on it.

Take care,

Jeff

<snip>

>Thank you so much Jeff Jarvis for stirring this pot then clamming

up.)

<snip>

[Guest guest]

That would be interesting to know. Also, I have ask a few of the RN's in

the hospitals that I have been in here in the DFW area, and most agree that

RN's should have to complete the entire EMT-Basic program and if they want

medic, they should have to complete the ENTIRE paramedic program. They also

agreed that courses such as A & P should be taken over if they have been out

of school for 5-10 yrs.

Mind you these were ER RN's that I ask, not LVN's. What do the rest of the

ER nurses (RN's) around the state think as well as those in TDH. We have to

remember that our Chief is also an RN.

Wayne

>From: Medic1TX@...

>Reply-To:

>To:

>Subject: Re: RN-Paramedic

>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:20:42 EDT

>

>I would be interested to know what the RN's that are working for the EMS

>division of TDH think, and are they doing anything to actively support the

>integrity of EMS or are they just standing by?

>

>Please dont blast me for this, its just a question and I dont know the

>answer

>!!!!!!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Good points throughout your letter. What do you think of the paramedic to RN

bridge programs and/or programs like Excelsor/Regents for paramedics to

achieve their RN?

If you want to give me your opinions directly via email, that's fine!

Thanks.

Kathi

[Guest guest]

I would be interested to know if those RN's that were questioned had actually

sat through the EMT-B and/or EMT-P classes, so they would know what they were

comparing. Because I was the first RN in my region to challenge the paramedic

exam, and no one at TDH was really sure yet what was necessary, I DID have to

sit throught the entire EMT-B class. (To my instructor's dismay! Thank God he's

a patient man.) I benefited greatly from the parts that were specific to EMS

structure, operations, management, prehospital care of the patient, equipment

used in EMS that is not common in the hospital (i.e. KED, various traction

splints, etc.), and the labs that had to do with these. It was also a lot of

wasted time when it came to taking VS, Oxygen adjuncts, etc. My clinical time

was waived other than ambulance hours. I learned a tremendous amount from that

time, and the wonderful people who mentored me, and if anything feel it should

be increased. I would not have benefited from revisiting the ER, OB, ICU, and

OR, which were all areas I had worked in, and was comfortable with. I think it

would be most beneficial if there was a compromise between the total curriculum

and those parts that were truly learning opportunities, and that this should

probably apply at the Paramedic level also, with those areas most pertinent to

prehospital care emphasized and some of the other stuff waived. Perhaps another

compromise might be reached by a preassessment test for other classes like A & P,

whereby you would not have to retake the actual class if you could demonstrate

an adequate knowledge base. This is very dependent on the individual and their

area(s) of clinical practice in the interim between obtaining a nursing degree

and opting to pursue paramedicine.

--- " Wayne D "

> wrote:

><html><body>

><tt>

><BR>

>That would be interesting to know. & nbsp; Also, I have ask a few of the RN's in

<BR>

>the hospitals that I have been in here in the DFW area, and most agree that

<BR>

>RN's should have to complete the entire EMT-Basic program and if they want <BR>

>medic, they should have to complete the ENTIRE paramedic program. & nbsp; They

also <BR>

>agreed that courses such as A & amp;P should be taken over if they have been out

<BR>

>of school for 5-10 yrs.<BR>

><BR>

>Mind you these were ER RN's that I ask, not LVN's. & nbsp; What do the rest of

the <BR>

>ER nurses (RN's) around the state think as well as those in TDH. & nbsp; We have

to <BR>

>remember that our Chief is also an RN.<BR>

><BR>

>Wayne<BR>

><BR>

><BR>

><BR>

><BR>

> & gt;From: Medic1TX@...<BR>

> & gt;Reply-To: <BR>

> & gt;To: <BR>

> & gt;Subject: Re: RN-Paramedic<BR>

> & gt;Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:20:42 EDT<BR>

> & gt;<BR>

> & gt;I would be interested to know what the RN's that are working for the

EMS<BR>

> & gt;division of TDH think, and are they doing anything to actively support

the<BR>

> & gt;integrity of EMS or are they just standing by?<BR>

> & gt;<BR>

> & gt;Please dont blast me for this, its just a question and I dont know the <BR>

> & gt;answer<BR>

> & gt;!!!!!!<BR>

> & gt;<BR>

> & gt;<BR>

> & gt;

[Guest guest]

Very well said ! Especially, if you consider that colleges allow

certain classes to be clep.

Jacky

[Guest guest]

Please remove me from the list

>>> jbetts@... 09/04/01 08:36AM >>>

Very well said ! Especially, if you consider that colleges allow

certain classes to be clep.

Jacky

[Guest guest]

No, the nurses that I talked with have not been through an EMT class. They

only agreed that RN should have to sit through the entire EMT and Paramedic

program if they wanted to certification.

Wayne

>

>Reply-To:

>To:

>Subject: Re: RN-Paramedic

>Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:26:04 -0700 (PDT)

>

>I would be interested to know if those RN's that were questioned had

>actually sat through the EMT-B and/or EMT-P classes, so they would know

>what they were comparing. Because I was the first RN in my region to

>challenge the paramedic exam, and no one at TDH was really sure yet what

>was necessary, I DID have to sit throught the entire EMT-B class. (To my

>instructor's dismay! Thank God he's a patient man.) I benefited greatly

>from the parts that were specific to EMS structure, operations, management,

>prehospital care of the patient, equipment used in EMS that is not common

>in the hospital (i.e. KED, various traction splints, etc.), and the labs

>that had to do with these. It was also a lot of wasted time when it came to

>taking VS, Oxygen adjuncts, etc. My clinical time was waived other than

>ambulance hours. I learned a tremendous amount from that time, and the

>wonderful people who mentored me, and if anything feel it should be

>increased. I would not have benefited from revisiting the ER, OB, ICU, and

>OR, which were all areas I had worked in, and was comfortable with. I think

>it would be most beneficial if there was a compromise between the total

>curriculum and those parts that were truly learning opportunities, and that

>this should probably apply at the Paramedic level also, with those areas

>most pertinent to prehospital care emphasized and some of the other stuff

>waived. Perhaps another compromise might be reached by a preassessment test

>for other classes like A & P, whereby you would not have to retake the actual

>class if you could demonstrate an adequate knowledge base. This is very

>dependent on the individual and their area(s) of clinical practice in the

>interim between obtaining a nursing degree and opting to pursue

>paramedicine.

>

>

>--- " Wayne D "

> > wrote:

> ><html><body>

> ><tt>

> ><BR>

> >That would be interesting to know. & nbsp; Also, I have ask a few of the

>RN's in <BR>

> >the hospitals that I have been in here in the DFW area, and most agree

>that <BR>

> >RN's should have to complete the entire EMT-Basic program and if they

>want <BR>

> >medic, they should have to complete the ENTIRE paramedic program. & nbsp;

>They also <BR>

> >agreed that courses such as A & amp;P should be taken over if they have

>been out <BR>

> >of school for 5-10 yrs.<BR>

> ><BR>

> >Mind you these were ER RN's that I ask, not LVN's. & nbsp; What do the rest

>of the <BR>

> >ER nurses (RN's) around the state think as well as those in TDH. & nbsp; We

>have to <BR>

> >remember that our Chief is also an RN.<BR>

> ><BR>

> >Wayne<BR>

> ><BR>

> ><BR>

> ><BR>

> ><BR>

> > & gt;From: Medic1TX@...<BR>

> > & gt;Reply-To: <BR>

> > & gt;To: <BR>

> > & gt;Subject: Re: RN-Paramedic<BR>

> > & gt;Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:20:42 EDT<BR>

> > & gt;<BR>

> > & gt;I would be interested to know what the RN's that are working for the

>EMS<BR>

> > & gt;division of TDH think, and are they doing anything to actively

>support the<BR>

> > & gt;integrity of EMS or are they just standing by?<BR>

> > & gt;<BR>

> > & gt;Please dont blast me for this, its just a question and I dont know

>the <BR>

> > & gt;answer<BR>

> > & gt;!!!!!!<BR>

> > & gt;<BR>

> > & gt;<BR>

> > & gt;