Re: Police refuse to allow medics gain patient refusals

August 26, 2001

In a message dated 8/26/01 4:43:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

tmcbarr@... writes:

> Today I experienced a first in my 12 years of public safety. A first which

> has apalled me and I am curious if this has happened to anybody else.

>

> Our unit was rehabbing from a fundraiser in full uniform when we witnessed a

> non-injury motor vehicle accident which was blocking a major freeway in East

> County. We verified there were no injuries, contacted County

> Sheriffs Office (HCSO) via their non-emergency phone number (we didn't even

> bother our dispatch with it), and had the witness and one of the involved

> vehicles pull over into a side street to keep traffic moving and prevent

> secondary collisions. We then proceeded to obtain patient refusals when the

> investigating (and only) HCSO officer R. Zepeda badge #1312 arrived on

> scene. He was very pertubed we were there and requested that we leave his

> scene stating we were " hindering his investrigation. " I tried to explain to

> him that all we were doing was obtaining the standard patient refusal forms

> and he replied that " there is no law in Texas which mandates that you obtain

> a refusal. " I tried to further explain this is a departmental policy and is

> a standard policy for all EMS agencies nationwide. He didn't care. He had

> explained to another member that if we didn't stop obtaining the refusals

> and vacate the scene that we would be arrested and further made

> unprofessional and discourteous remarks about us to those involved who

> replied they were glad we there to help.

>

> We left the scene as the officer requested without any conflict as it is his

> scene and nobody was injured. Shortly after our departure, he requested a

> HCSO supervisor respond and one of the uninjured occupants developed severe

> back pain and requested an ambulance.

>

> Did we do anything wrong? Should I bridge the organizational gap and file an

> official complaint against him as I am inclined to do? What is the best way

> to educate this officer and others to prevent this from occurring in the

> future? Is there a report I need to file with TDH? I just want to prevent

> this from occuring again and protect my agency legally.

>

> C. McBarron

> Chief

> South Texas Advanced Tactical Team Search & Rescue

> http://www.stattsar.org

>

I think you have been given some good advice on the server.

Having been a police officer for 23 years myself, I will not try to take

sides or such on the matter. I would recommend that you contact the

County Sheriff's Dept. and talk to someone within that agency. Police

agencies urge citizen input and I am sure that they would like to speak with

you regarding your complaint/observations. I am sure that they will be able

to explain to you their policy on matters such as this and, if a policy was

broken by their deputy, they will be more than willing to accept your

complaint. This is the proper way to handle a matter like this.

I think that you will get better peace of mind if you will talk to the

department about your event.

Have a Great Day!

, BS, LP

Instructor

Tyler Junior College

Emergency Medical Services Professions Department

August 26, 2001

This sounds like a problem that needs to have a formal complaint

brought up to your supervisor and/or EMS Director. This is one of

" those scenes " in which the law enforcement once again tries to tell

you how to do your job. Your EMS Director or Medical Director needs to

speak to the Sheriff himself and let him know exactly what your job is

on scene and the significant need to obtain patient refusals. The

Sheriff then needs to educate that particular officer about treating

other public servants with respect as we work together all of the time.

You are in no way hindering his investigation, but just doing your

specified job and obtaining the proper information needed for your AMA.

It definately is not a " power struggle " because we all just want to do

our particular job (I am not saying that the job of an EMS professional

is any more important than that of a peace officer) and leave the

scene. Good luck with this and follow through with the complaint as

this is not something that you can just let go on by without anyone

being notified or it will happen again, and again....

Donnie Stone

__________________________________________________

August 26, 2001

My personal advice , would be to file a formal written complaint against

the deputy involved in the incident to CYA. HCSO can not accept a complaint

verbally only. It would probably have to be on their written form and notarized

as a sworn affidavit for them to investigate it and take any action against

their deputy. It at least lets them know what you did.

With the officer not being EMS certified, there is nothing TDH can do to HCSO,

as they only regulate you. I would write up an internal report about the

incident, and attach a copy of the formal complaint against the officer to the

report- just in case someone decided to sue.

Just my thoughts and advice on that one....

J. Hoskins

Texas Peace Officer

EMT/EMS Instructor

jhoskins@...

Police refuse to allow medics gain patient refusals

Today I experienced a first in my 12 years of public safety. A first which

has apalled me and I am curious if this has happened to anybody else.

Our unit was rehabbing from a fundraiser in full uniform when we witnessed a

non-injury motor vehicle accident which was blocking a major freeway in East

County. We verified there were no injuries, contacted County

Sheriffs Office (HCSO) via their non-emergency phone number (we didn't even

bother our dispatch with it), and had the witness and one of the involved

vehicles pull over into a side street to keep traffic moving and prevent

secondary collisions. We then proceeded to obtain patient refusals when the

investigating (and only) HCSO officer R. Zepeda badge #1312 arrived on

scene. He was very pertubed we were there and requested that we leave his

scene stating we were " hindering his investrigation. " I tried to explain to

him that all we were doing was obtaining the standard patient refusal forms

and he replied that " there is no law in Texas which mandates that you obtain

a refusal. " I tried to further explain this is a departmental policy and is

a standard policy for all EMS agencies nationwide. He didn't care. He had

explained to another member that if we didn't stop obtaining the refusals

and vacate the scene that we would be arrested and further made

unprofessional and discourteous remarks about us to those involved who

replied they were glad we there to help.

We left the scene as the officer requested without any conflict as it is his

scene and nobody was injured. Shortly after our departure, he requested a

HCSO supervisor respond and one of the uninjured occupants developed severe

back pain and requested an ambulance.

Did we do anything wrong? Should I bridge the organizational gap and file an

official complaint against him as I am inclined to do? What is the best way

to educate this officer and others to prevent this from occurring in the

future? Is there a report I need to file with TDH? I just want to prevent

this from occuring again and protect my agency legally.

C. McBarron

Chief

South Texas Advanced Tactical Team Search & Rescue

http://www.stattsar.org

August 26, 2001

Police/EMS relations depend upon mutual understanding and respect. I have no

idea what was in the deputy's head, but I get the feeling that he's had some

experiences with EMS people that were less than great, or, on the other hand,

he's got a mindset against EMS that needs to be fixed, or there are

circumstances that came into play that have not been fully delineated here.

If I had had this experience I would have done the following: First, WRITE

a letter to the Sheriff complaining about this deputy, with a copy to the

deputy. I would ask for a meeting with the deputy in the presence of his

superior officer (Sergeant?) to discuss the incident and seek to gain an

understanding.

Now, that said, I would not at all be surprised if you received no response

from these communications, since many Sheriffs, County Attorneys, Judges,

Commissioners, and others, view themselves as immune to criticism and

responsibility for the actions of those who work for them until whapped

up-side the head with a frozen dead squirrel and an order from a Federal

Judge, a symptom of arrogance in Low Places. And so then I would implement

Plan B.

Send a copy of the letters and another letter explaining in full your

position to the County Judge, the County Attorney, each of the County

Commissioners, the Sheriff, the Deputy, the Chief Deputy, and everybody else

you can identify in the hierarchy, and to each and every TV station consumer

affairs person, and each and every radio station, the State Attorney General,

CLEAT, and everybody else you can think of, plus your state representative,

senator, the lieutenant governor, the governor, your congressman and both

Texas senators, the President of the US, the Attorney General, the FBI, and

the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, the Joint Chiefs of Staff,

The CIA, and the National Security Council.

Be factual, and not inflammatory. Be matter of fact and ask for attention to

a problem that seems to be happening between EMS and LE. Emphasize that EMS

and LE must work together and ASK WHY this particular officer seems to have a

problem with EMS.

Now, also, please, search your soul and make sure you are not at risk for

having been out of line. If there's even a hint of that, then please go to

your room!

Also, whose territory were you in? Yours? Theirs? If Theirs, did THEY

arrive on scene? What was your status at this scene? Bystander? That's

important.

What's the role of TDH in this? Well, they can't do anything to the deputy,

but they can do something to you, so make sure you've acted reasonably.

Remember, the test is that of the Reasonable Man. What Would a Reasonable

and Ordinary (Paramedic or EMT) with the same education, training, and

experience, have done in the same or similar circumstances.

Recourse against a rogue deputy must come through HIS chain of command.

And remember that what you bite can bite back!

Well, I'm sure you're THRILLED with this advice.

Your friend,

Gene

E. Gandy, JD, LP

EMS Professions Program

Tyler Junior College

Tyler, TX

August 26, 2001

Too bad that situation had to happen, You asked if anyone else ever had a

that happen, well not exactly but I had another " less than professional "

incident a few years back......

On the scene of an MVA, I had a police officer cancel my backup because he

" didnt want to many people there. " I had requested backup EMS and

Fire/Rescue for vehicle extrication when he decided that the wrecker which

had been called was qualified to " open up the car " for me, and that the fire

department was " over-kill " He had the guts to look me in the eye while he

canceled them over the radio. Sooo, I looked at him in the eye and

re-requested them.

He backed down. Last I heard he was doing construction or something.

Let us know what kind of response you get from his supervisor,

_________________________________________________________________

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August 26, 2001

I work in Northeast County, and Have had run ins with the deputy

mentioned personally. He is usually not EMS friendly and will try to

interfere in pt care if he feels the need to get a driver's license or other

information he deems neccessary. We usually ignore him and do whatever is

neccessary to treat our pts. My best advice is to file a formal written

complaint and give it to a HCSO supervisor, and then follow up on the

complaint in writing in a few weeks time.

Deena

>

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August 26, 2001

I agree, I too have had run-ins with this deputy. Hopefully something will

get done soon about this problem.

Kim

----Original Message Follows----

Reply-To:

To:

Subject: Re: Police refuse to allow medics gain patient

refusals

Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:18:58 +0000

I work in Northeast County, and Have had run ins with the deputy

mentioned personally. He is usually not EMS friendly and will try to

interfere in pt care if he feels the need to get a driver's license or other

information he deems neccessary. We usually ignore him and do whatever is

neccessary to treat our pts. My best advice is to file a formal written

complaint and give it to a HCSO supervisor, and then follow up on the

complaint in writing in a few weeks time.

Deena

>

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_________________________________________________________________

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August 26, 2001

Back in the day when I worked in the Greater Houston area, I also had (what

I considered...) more than my fair share of encounter with this same

officer. He is DEFINITELY not EMS/patient health and safety friendly. And

it is not just to privates, not just to emergency units, not just to the

ambulance crews, nor not just to first responders.

He didn't like me when I was wearing blue, grey, red (uniform shirts), or

civvies! (Hard to believe, isn't it? <wink>)

I'd go with the internal incident report, and file a written complaint with

HCSO, if I were you. If someone on that scene decides they want to receive

" money for their pain and suffering " , you need your rump protected.

Maybe if someone had filed a formal written complaint for a prior incident

(myself included), then maybe his attitude would be different.

Barry E. McClung, Paramedic/Crew Chief

North Blanco County EMS

City, Texas

August 26, 2001

Christy, et al:

As Chief of STATTSAR, I must state you are absolutely WRONG that STATTSAR

has been asked to leave a scene of an accident, or any other incident for

that matter, before. I am not personally EMS certified, although certified /

licensed medical professionals representing STATTSAR were on location. Our

Medical Director is Dr. Matt Minson, also a Director with Texas Task Force 1

(Blue Team?) and other federal, state and local agencies and colleges.

STATTSAR personnel were huddled under an overpass bridge deciding on a

location for lunch when the accident occurred in front of us. Being in our

blaze orange uniform it is kind of hard to hide our identity, and it

appeared that one of the drivers was initially slumped over the steering

wheel (later to learn she was placing an object under her seat). Not only

did we have a moral duty to act, but a legal one as well.

Christy, I will state that your immflammatory and incorrect response on a

state-wide mail list is yet another unprofessional action taken by yourself

because you have a history between STATTSAR and your agency, North Channel

EMS, in which I and others personally filed egregious complaints against

yourself to your superior, with the end result being STATTSAR cancelling the

dispatch contract by and between North Channel EMS and migrating to

County Emergency Communications. Additionally, I am aware that you and/or a

significant other contacted other agencies which contract with County

Emergency Communications stating false facts about STATTSAR in another

attempt to discredit STATTSAR during the migration process -- allegations

and concerns to be proven false per the administration of County

Emergency Communications. It seems you have a history and pattern of

deceptive communications. I am sorry to bring this up again, but I will not

let you slander the reputation of a fellow agency dedicated to saving lives.

Additionally, in your post, I do not believe that you are representing North

Channel EMS, which I regard as a dedicated EMS which has continued to be

very supportive of STATTSAR. I hope this is all I have to say about this

matter between Christy Petty and STATTSAR, but I am willing to respond to

pertinent reasonable inquiries on a private basis.

And no, Deputy Zepeda had no cause to act like he did. Perhaps he was upset

his lunch was interrupted, I do not know...

I graciously appreciate the advice I have received from other professionals,

saddened to learn about other alleged unprofessional instances with the same

deputy and deeply saddened by an attempt to subvert the credibility of

STATTSAR by a fellow EMS " professional " . I look forward to communicating

with the rest of the professional EMS community.

To Bring Them Home,

McBarron

C. McBarron

Chief

South Texas Advanced Tactical Team Search & Rescue

tmcbarr@...

Re: Police refuse to allow medics gain patient

refusals

I would be curious to know which EMS agency you were representing. Per

the

most current lists on the TDH website, your organization is neither a

Provider nor a First Responder organization. Who IS your medical

director?

And who was obtaining the refusals? You indicate " we, " but you do not

have

a TDH certification per the TDH CertQuery.

This is not the first time STATTSAR members have been " asked " to leave a

scene of an MVA. Perhaps Deputy Zepeda had good cause...

Christy Petty, EMT-P

August 26, 2001

This information is does NOT constitute legal advice and is the opinion

of the sender ONLY. As always, consult your department’s legal advisor.

You might want to advise the officer’s Sgt., Lt., Capt., Sheriff along

with the departmental and county legal advisors, that when such an

incident occurs that per Texas' CCP, §6.06. Duty to Prevent Injury, he

is mandated by law to prevent injury to any person. This may be

interpreted to in such a manner since he (if he does not) is not

medically competent to make such decisions. He also, like anyone else,

has a duty to stop and render aid (Texas’ Transportation Code).

Furthermore, his obstruction of your pt. access (If done WITHOUT good

reason) may constitute a violation of his departmental policy for

" Non-conformance to laws " . This may jeopardize his TCLEOSE license. As

we know, a refusal must bear the scrutiny of investigation to affirm

said refusal was given voluntarily based upon adequate information. If

this is not the case then pt. abandonment (a violation of law) may be

claimed. If he were a party to such a violation of law, while on duty

and in uniform, it might constitute a civil rights violation under color

of law. Lastly, in v. City of Canton, OH, police officers and

their dept. were found civilly liable for a civil rights violation for

demonstrating what the court termed deliberate indifference, in that

they denied medical care in a non-life threatening medical event. I

don’t think his dept. would appreciate the negative publicity any such

claim could generate nor is that type of behavior (based upon the

information provided) ethical or caring.

LP

Arlington PD

Police refuse to allow medics gain patient

refusals

Today I experienced a first in my 12 years of public safety. A first

which

has apalled me and I am curious if this has happened to anybody else.

Our unit was rehabbing from a fundraiser in full uniform when we

witnessed a

non-injury motor vehicle accident which was blocking a major freeway in

East

County. We verified there were no injuries, contacted

County

Sheriffs Office (HCSO) via their non-emergency phone number (we didn't

even

bother our dispatch with it), and had the witness and one of the

involved

vehicles pull over into a side street to keep traffic moving and prevent

secondary collisions. We then proceeded to obtain patient refusals when

the

investigating (and only) HCSO officer R. Zepeda badge #1312 arrived on

scene. He was very pertubed we were there and requested that we leave

his

scene stating we were " hindering his investrigation. " I tried to explain

to

him that all we were doing was obtaining the standard patient refusal

forms

and he replied that " there is no law in Texas which mandates that you

obtain

a refusal. " I tried to further explain this is a departmental policy and

is

a standard policy for all EMS agencies nationwide. He didn't care. He

had

explained to another member that if we didn't stop obtaining the

refusals

and vacate the scene that we would be arrested and further made

unprofessional and discourteous remarks about us to those involved who

replied they were glad we there to help.

We left the scene as the officer requested without any conflict as it is

his

scene and nobody was injured. Shortly after our departure, he requested

a

HCSO supervisor respond and one of the uninjured occupants developed

severe

back pain and requested an ambulance.

Did we do anything wrong? Should I bridge the organizational gap and

file an

official complaint against him as I am inclined to do? What is the best

way

to educate this officer and others to prevent this from occurring in the

future? Is there a report I need to file with TDH? I just want to

prevent

this from occuring again and protect my agency legally.

C. McBarron

Chief

South Texas Advanced Tactical Team Search & Rescue

http://www.stattsar.org

August 27, 2001

,

Thank you for that information. I have been looking for other information

other than the Transportation code and you have saved me some research. I

graciously appreciate your response.

C. McBarron

Chief

South Texas Advanced Tactical Team Search & Rescue

http://www.stattsar.org

August 27, 2001

Glad to help and I apologize for the behavior. Stay safe.

RE: Police refuse to allow medics gain patient

refusals

,

Thank you for that information. I have been looking for other

information

other than the Transportation code and you have saved me some research.

I

graciously appreciate your response.

C. McBarron

Chief

South Texas Advanced Tactical Team Search & Rescue

http://www.stattsar.org

August 27, 2001

Ummm...not wanting to get involved in this particular

issue or anything (just gonna sit back and watch) but

concerning someone not being on the TDH website...I

know of a person who has been certified for over 10

years, and they aren't listed anywhere on the site.

Yes, I am 150% sure they are current, active status.

(They've contacted TDH about it...TDH says they'll

look into it.) Just saying that sometimes, the

website does have errors.

Connie

--- Christy Petty wrote:

> I would be curious to know which EMS agency you were

> representing. Per the

> most current lists on the TDH website, your

> organization is neither a

> Provider nor a First Responder organization. Who IS

> your medical director?

> And who was obtaining the refusals? You indicate

> " we, " but you do not have

> a TDH certification per the TDH CertQuery.

>

> This is not the first time STATTSAR members have

> been " asked " to leave a

> scene of an MVA. Perhaps Deputy Zepeda had good

> cause...

>

> Christy Petty, EMT-P

> Police refuse to allow medics

> gain patient refusals

>

> > Today I experienced a first in my 12 years of

> public safety. A first which

> > has apalled me and I am curious if this has

> happened to anybody else.

> >

> > Our unit was rehabbing from a fundraiser in full

> uniform when we witnessed

> a

> > non-injury motor vehicle accident which was

> blocking a major freeway in

> East

> > County. We verified there were no injuries,

> contacted County

> > Sheriffs Office (HCSO) via their non-emergency

> phone number (we didn't

> even

> > bother our dispatch with it), and had the witness

> and one of the involved

> > vehicles pull over into a side street to keep

> traffic moving and prevent

> > secondary collisions. We then proceeded to obtain

> patient refusals when

> the

> > investigating (and only) HCSO officer R. Zepeda

> badge #1312 arrived on

> > scene. He was very pertubed we were there and

> requested that we leave his

> > scene stating we were " hindering his

> investrigation. " I tried to explain

> to

> > him that all we were doing was obtaining the

> standard patient refusal

> forms

> > and he replied that " there is no law in Texas

> which mandates that you

> obtain

> > a refusal. " I tried to further explain this is a

> departmental policy and

> is

> > a standard policy for all EMS agencies nationwide.

> He didn't care. He had

> > explained to another member that if we didn't stop

> obtaining the refusals

> > and vacate the scene that we would be arrested and

> further made

> > unprofessional and discourteous remarks about us

> to those involved who

> > replied they were glad we there to help.

> >

> > We left the scene as the officer requested without

> any conflict as it is

> his

> > scene and nobody was injured. Shortly after our

> departure, he requested a

> > HCSO supervisor respond and one of the uninjured

> occupants developed

> severe

> > back pain and requested an ambulance.

> >

> > Did we do anything wrong? Should I bridge the

> organizational gap and file

> an

> > official complaint against him as I am inclined to

> do? What is the best

> way

> > to educate this officer and others to prevent this

> from occurring in the

> > future? Is there a report I need to file with TDH?

> I just want to prevent

> > this from occuring again and protect my agency

> legally.

> >

> > C. McBarron

> > Chief

> > South Texas Advanced Tactical Team Search & Rescue

> > http://www.stattsar.org

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> >

August 27, 2001

Mr. McBarron,

It is obvious that there are personal differences between your organization and

some others on this list, however the email from early this morning certainly

raises some issues that I believe are relevant to this discussion. Let's take a

hypothetical look at this from a different angle:

It is late November and 6 members of ABC EMS are standing outside of a hotel in

Austin Texas trying to decide where to eat lunch before returning to the State

EMS Conference. Then, out of nowhere, there is a 3 vehicle collision right in

front of the hotel. It appears serious (as do most MVA's when you witness them

that is why I enjoy showing up 3-5 minutes later) so the ABC kids run over and

begin to render aid. Fortunately it turns out that there are no injuries but

the vehicles are tying up traffic. So they instruct them to pull into the hotel

parking lot and notify PD. Austin PD shows up and finds ABC EMS all huddled

around the vehicles. The PD officer has just come from his 4th domestic dispute

of the shift and is a little testy. He asks the EMS kids to step back so he can

do his investigation. They tell him they are getting refusals and will be done

in a minute or two. He doesn't see Austin EMS patches on their uniforms and

again tells them to remove themselves p!

rior to him doing it for them.

Looking at this scenario, was the officer out of line? Was ABC EMS? Where was

Austin EMS? Did ABC have a duty to act??? (ABC does EMS around Austin and

interacts regularly with Austin, but is not a primary responder in Austin)

It has been over 9 years since I did EMS in the Houston area (Pasadeener where

the skys are greener)and I never met Deputy Zepeda. I do question your agencies

Duty to Act if you are not a FRO or EMS Provider in the area where the accident

occurred. Don't get me wrong, I see every reason to first respond...but when

you called PD, why didn't you call the local EMS provider as well? Even telling

them that providers were on scene, but you needed them to come out for refusals

non-emergency???

I have never been prevented from accessing patients in my response area in over

15 years of EMS. I have, acting as a good samaritan, been prevented from

accessing scenes on a number of occasions. In my primary response district I

would not hesitate to contact the local law enforcement chief and have him

explore the situation (again every story has 2 sides). If it was not my area, I

would chock it up to trying to do the right thing and move on.

Just my 2 cents.

Dudley

August 27, 2001

I have replied to this individual privately. I would like to refocus the

discussion on law enforcement refusing to allow medical providers access to

obtain patient refusals as this is what I was originally seeking advice on.

C. McBarron

Chief

South Texas Advanced Tactical Team Search & Rescue

http://www.stattsar.org

August 27, 2001

Which EMS agency are you with ?

August 27, 2001

Dudley: Here is our situation. We have applied to become a state-wide FRO.

For all we know the letter could be in the mail today with our license.

Being the chief administrator I have to look at the liability of each

operation. What if we didn't do anything at the wreck and the patient dies

of a subdural hematoma or other hidden injury and our license arrives today.

It will be very difficult to explain to a jury that our medical

professionals did not act because we had not received our letter in the mail

even though the license is dated say last Thursday. That is a " check is in

the mail " scenario which I believe is easy to torpedo in court.

What we have been doing is IF a situation develops where a medical emergency

presents itself creating a duty to act for STATTSAR, we have been proving

care as a good samaritan, following all procedures (refusal, patient

documentation) as if we were a FRO in the event we receive our license dated

before or on the date of the event.

I believe the issue of whether or not we are an FRO is moot because we

simply don't know. We could be; we may not be right now, but will be

shortly.

One reason I posted this is so I can get the feedback from the Brad England

and Gene Weatherall types out there. Am I being to cautious? What can we do

to prevent future occurances of this type of confrontation? Is there a

different policy we need to review?

ps. we only had 2 personnel around the vehicles, everybody else was away

from the scene so as not to prevent a " cluster " .

August 27, 2001

I would report this in writting to the HCSO at once and to the TDH EMS

office as well. Just to cover all the bases,>

August 27, 2001

,

I understand your situation, and could see how you are seeing it. Sure the

deputy should not have been rude or anything, but until your agency is a FRO or

EMS Provider, there is no duty to act, and your agency is not liable- because

you are not an EMS agency as of yet. Until you get the paper from TDH in your

hand, there is no need for " refusal forms " .

I know you were just trying to help and all, but I would have simply asked the

patient if they were OK (note- you are not acting as an agency or FRO, just as

an individual. Patient says, " I'm fine " or whatever, then you say " OK " and

leave.

I am not saying the deputy was right, or wrong in this case- but if you feel he

was wrong, you need to file a formal written complaint for HCSO to investigate,

and take any action- if warranted against the deputy. That is state law when

it comes to complaints, they must be in writing.

There is no duty to act, just at times a moral obligation to do so- Since you

are not a provider as of yet, then you have no affiliation with TDH as an FRO or

EMS provider, but some of your members are trained in EMS. They could go there

as individuals, but I would not go as far as to say that you as an agency need

to be engaging in this type of conduct, because it could be misconstrued that

you are an " official " provider of EMS services, and cause liability that way.

Again, I am not trying to slam you, but after learning that you have not

recieved FRO or EMS Provider status officially from TDH- there is no reason to

get refusal sheets. I am not second guessing, but since you are not yet a

provider- steer clear of situations like this if possible. It gets your agency

that is not certifed or designated as an FRO or EMS provider in a liability

situation, because you are not. I am not 100% certain on this, but I think

TDH could have something to say about unlicensed providers doing stuff like

this- if it appears you are acting as a provider or FRO, even if the application

is in the mail.

Until the certificate comes from TDH with your agency on it, then I would avoid

stuff like this.

Jay

RE: Police refuse to allow medics gain patient refusals