Re: newgroup is gettin' to be a waste o' time

June 18, 1998

Hi rebecca and list

is it right to give free speech to ppl who dont give it to

to others? by bombing an NG with offensive stuff, then

these ppl are hampering other ppl's right to free speech. i

havent looked at the NG for a long time, which from what i

hear is just as well. would we feel ok with racist stuff

etc. appearing all the time? i dont think these ppl are

interested in their human rights. they dont seem to care

abt anybody elses. modertaing them is just like chucking

out yobs who try break up peaceful meetings. theyre

destroying our right to free speech. if they expressed

themselves in a respectful way, that would be one thing -

but from what i hear theyre not doing that.

I posted a pretty immature thing on arf12s a while back -

but not personal. why do steppers want to be on that NG

anyway? common courtesy says you dont preach at an atheists

funeral or whatever. these guys dont mind saying fuck off

if we post to their NGs - and there are a hell of a lot

more of them than there are of us.

P.

----------------------

Pumpkin Eater

" Facts are stubborn things "

-- Judge Zobel, from Alain Rene Lesage

[no, I didnt know who he was either]

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June 18, 1998

Hi Bette

There's no reason why we cant have *both* a moderated *and*

and unmoderated NG. In a sense *this list* is like a

moderated NG. We could still cross post to the unmoderated

12sp NGs if we wanted to. they create moderated NGs too -

so what? they might decide to keep unmoderated ones for the

same kind of reasons *you* want to keep an unmoderated one.

also, we cant *stop* them creating moderated groups if they

wanted to. maybe theyve got them already. theyve got their

email lists havent they? they can say as much as they like

there in a way we cant influence. the NGs are just a small

part of the picture.

as it happens, if theyre true to their traditions they cant

moderate us out anyway. they keep banging on abt the steps

are only suggestions, anyone can belong who wants to, you

are the one who decides if you meet the third trad, no-one

can chuck you out, yada, yada. lets call them on that.

we dont have to slag off *A - but we can say we dont rate

the 12SP and say why. we can be full members of *A groups

and say that. Ive *heard* full members say that irl, and it

wasnt only my own voice that was saying it.

Of course, they may not honor their traditions, but thats

their business. the bottom line is if ppl want *A lunacy

its all over the place, but if they want a bit of sanity

then there are precious few places to get it.

ok, so some ppl might have benefited from things as are.

what abt all the ppl who weve never heard from cos they

couldnt stick it? there could be hundreds of these. lets

not do the " AA error " - think abt 5% of ppl who are success

stories and forget the 95% who arent.

P.

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 01:50:36 EDT Betche2

wrote:

>

> You know, I talked to Kim this afternoon before I went to work about this, and

> at that point I was just tired of the whole thing, and frustrated. I thought,

> well maybe the idea of a moderated ng is not so bad. I do some pretty physical

> work that doesn't take a lot of thinking so my mind is free to wander....I

> gave this whole thing a lot of thought tonight, and I am not sure it is a

> great idea to moderate the ng. The fact of the matter is that there are

> posters from arf12s that have gone and still go to arna and araa and post

> information for alternative methods of recovery. In the past there have been

> times that the crossposting was so intense that it was as upsetting for the

> members of arna as it is for us on arf12s right now. I personally feel that

> there was the potential for actual dialogues when arf12s-ers posted

> there...but that is not the primary point here. For myself, like Kim, those

> crossposts did serve a purpose. I began to get the information I needed and

> talk to people; that made the transition of leaving NA much easier for me.

> Quite frankly, I would hate to see that flow of information to 12 step ngs

> disappear, and I have heard Joe B argue that is is of value. The thing is if

> we dish it out, we have to be able to take some of the heat. I also hear Joe B

> argue that it is not beneficial for members of arna to crosspost on arf12s. I

> think at times it has been. No there is no benefit to what Reese or

> Glenn....and now a few of their cohorts are doing. It serves no purpose that I

> can fathom. However, when you have free speech, you are bound to get some

> crackpots, and right now we are getting more than our fair share. I don't know

> what the answer is, but I am not convinced that it is to become moderated. I

> am going to kick back here and read the pros and cons that are presented, and

> try to be open to all the information presented.

>

> They want to be there because they are miserable bastards that are intent on

> making anyone they come in contact with miserable. When some of them are not

> wreaking havoc on arf12s, they are infighting on arna. As for the comment of

> not preaching at an atheists funeral--you possibly do if the atheist's wife is

> a Christian and that makes her comfortable. We did have a service at my

> Dad's(the atheist) funeral for the sake of my Mom. And yeah...they say " fuck

> off " when arf12s-ers post on their NG but they can't stop them from doing

> so(anyone who wants to can have at it)....also these days I would venture to

> say that there are as many regulars on arf12s as there are on arna...(It is NA

> posters that are doing this...not those from AA.) We have grown a lot over the

> recent months and it particularly pisses Reese off, after all he lost his

> girlfriend to arf12s.....a fate worse than deathm in his pea size mind, I

> imagine.

P.

----------------------

Pumpkin Eater

" Facts are stubborn things "

-- Judge Zobel, from Alain Rene Lesage

[no, I didnt know who he was either]

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June 18, 1998

Kim,

You said it:

2 NGs, one moderated, one not.

addict-l is not " censored " - tho it gets talked abt a bit.

some steppers were into talking abt the steps and the owner

said that wasnt what the list was for. despite this a

" roundheads unite " thread abt circumcision, which I was

*ahem* cavalier enough to stimulate, went on unprotested.

I supported the steppers right to post abt the steps if

they wanted - if anything i'd like to hear what they had to

say. i almost feel like asking them to start again. since

its a method ppl use to attempt to recover from addictions,

it was appropriate for the list, and i was surprised when

the listowner said something. he aint fanatic, so he

probably let it go on if ppl wanted it to.

P.

----------------------

Pumpkin Eater

" Facts are stubborn things "

-- Judge Zobel, from Alain Rene Lesage

[no, I didnt know who he was either]

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS LIST:

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June 18, 1998

Hi Kim, everyone

Kim, you brought out some very sensible points about not

censoring the newsgroup via moderator. Freedom of speech is

one of my highest values, but when it that day came where that

Glenn character pounded the newsgroups with about 100 posts

just to be destructive, I really wavered. I've gotton to where I

don't care if the newsgroup is moderated, if someone else wants to

do the dirty work.

But if it really came to a vote, I'd probably vote against it. Mainly

because to moderate a newsgroup, you have to have a

moderator, and moderators have opinions. ly, Cancerboy

did more for our newsgroup than hurt it. I don't see Glen as

doing that. Glenn appears as though he's trying his best to destroy

the newsgroup. But chances are, in a moderated newsgroup, Cancerboy

would likely be censored, and many of Glenn's posts left alone.

I'm still unsure, but if I had to be asked right this minute, I say we

leave it alone for awhile and see what happens.

" Keep coming back, it squirts! "

.......Bob Wicks

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>

>Hi all! I meant to subscribe earlier but as most of you saw, I was

kind of

>occupied <g>. Bette forwarded me this thread about moderating the

newsgroup

>so that I could see what had been said before I jumped in and ran my

mouth.

>

>Anyway, I know some of you may not take this seriously as you probably

>consider me part of the problem. I agree that my behavior the last

couple of

>days has been atrocious and I apologize to anyone who was offended.

But, I am

>against moderating the newsgroup for a variety of reasons and as a

regular

>poster there (who aside from this week, really does contribute), I

wanted to

>give you my perspective.

>

>1. Believe it or not, crossposting helps people. I left the 12-steps

and

>started posting to arf12s because of a very similar situation. While I

wasn't

>in the flame war, I read a pretty serious dispute between the two

groups with

>Reese, Ken, and in the lead. That's when I realized what I did

and

>didn't want. I didn't want the 12 steps and I didn't want to be like

the

>people who were posting from arna. And since the people from arf12s

made

>sense, I thought I'd give something else a try. Without crossposting,

I never

>would have known there was another way. (I'd heard of RR and SMART, of

>course, but I believed the propaganda about them) There have been

several

>people who have said the same thing so I know that it's not just me. I

would

>gladly wade through the bullshit so that someone who needed to hear the

>message, heard it. I had given up hope. Crossposting changed that.

>

>2. Censorship is wrong. Anyone who doesn't have a killfile or filter

can

>skip the posts that they don't want to read. I don't think anyone

should have

>the power to determine what everyone else *should* read. It just feels

like

>communism to me. Personally, I would like to determine how much crap I

read,

>not someone else. What's crap to one person may be helpful to another.

Where

>do you draw the line? What's likely happen is that certain people are

going

>to get filtered automatically and even if they ever did a serious post,

no one

>would see it. And what if those of us who are regulars get into a

>disagreement? There are people on arf12s that piss me off. Do I have

to

>watch what I post to make it past the censors? I just don't like it.

>

>3. It's lame. Granted, Reese and others (myself included

occasionally) take

>some things *way* too far but I do believe that fair is fair (to an

extent).

>Captainusa, Markus, and others regularly post anti-12 step stuff to

arna and

>araa. When they want to retalliate (not that I condone vengeance) are

we

>going to say, " Na na na, you can't post here. " I fell like I'm in the

3rd

>grade. It almost seems like we can give it but we can't take it. One

could

>effectively argue that we wanted to protect ourselves from hearing

opposing

>viewpoints.

>

>4. Some of the biggest assholes turn out to be great assets to the

newsgroup.

>(No, I'm not talking about Reese, I don't expect a change of heart from

him)

>But, there have been 2 or 3 people who have viciously attacked me for

leaving

>the fellowship. One of them responded to almost every post of mine in

a rude

>way. Weeks later, he read Trimpey's book and realized that there may

be a

>better way. He started posting to arf12s and has a lot of good

insights. The

>others didn't convert but they did become more understanding and I

think it

>helped bridge the gap between steppers and non-steppers. To me, it

doesn't so

>much matter what program a person chooses. We all have the same

problem and

>we all need help. I don't think all the animosity is necessary.

>

>5. For those who think the newsgroup is too " harsh " , there are

censored list

>servers. We have this one, x-aa, addict-l, smart, etc. Those who

don't want

>all the crap have plenty of places to post. But for those of us who

like some

>of the crossposting and who think it can help people, can't we have one

place

>where we are free to post as we please? I notice that a lot of people

who are

>for moderation haven't been on the newsgroup that long. Which means

you've

>only seen the bad side of crossposting. This particular flame war was

pretty

>pathetic but some of them are really good. When it doesn't digress

into

>namecalling, it's a wonderful way to see other views and either

strengthen or

>re-evaluate your own.

>

>Anyway, I am adamantly against moderating the newsgroup but if I'm

outvoted

>there is nothing I can do. I would like to suggest though, that if you

are

>really serious about it, can we consider having 2 newsgroups? That

way, those

>who want it moderated can go there and those who don't can stay as is.

Or, if

>it comes down to it, anyone know how I can start a newsgroup? <g>

>

>Thanks for listening.

>

>Kim

>

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June 18, 1998

>Hi rebecca and list

>

>is it right to give free speech to ppl who dont give it to

>to others? by bombing an NG with offensive stuff, then

>these ppl are hampering other ppl's right to free speech. i

>havent looked at the NG for a long time, which from what i

>hear is just as well. would we feel ok with racist stuff

>etc. appearing all the time? i dont think these ppl are

>interested in their human rights. they dont seem to care

>abt anybody elses. modertaing them is just like chucking

>out yobs who try break up peaceful meetings. theyre

>destroying our right to free speech. if they expressed

>themselves in a respectful way, that would be one thing -

>but from what i hear theyre not doing that.

I understand your questions, and I've felt the same way at times, but

briefly.

There's several things going on in the newsgroup right now:

hammerings by Reese

hammerings by Glenn

flame wars between arf12ers, Reese, and Glenn

crossposting

less bothersome but disagreeable posts from steppers

obscene, humiliating postings (Lucy's)

regular foul language and blasphemies

libelous postings (steppers calling Ken a drunkard.)

Out of all these, Glenn is the only one I really cared about stopping.

Having to put up with his hundreds of postings seemed ridiculous.

I had hoped he'd go away if folks would stop responding to him,

but thats difficult also.

As tempting as it might be to moderate the newsgroup, what would

happen if we eliminated all the above? What would the newsgroup

look like? Keep in mind moderators are human. When does one

make a judgement call, and over whom?

The way I look at it, we may end up moderating ourselves. And I

don't want to be moderated.

Sincerley,

>

>I posted a pretty immature thing on arf12s a while back -

>but not personal. why do steppers want to be on that NG

>anyway? common courtesy says you dont preach at an atheists

>funeral or whatever. these guys dont mind saying fuck off

>if we post to their NGs - and there are a hell of a lot

>more of them than there are of us.

>

>P.

>----------------------

>Pumpkin Eater

>

> " Facts are stubborn things "

> -- Judge Zobel, from Alain Rene Lesage

> [no, I didnt know who he was either]

>

>PERSONALITY-DISORDERS LIST:

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June 18, 1998

Oops, I hit reply instead of sending this to the list. Sorry you are getting

it twice, delta.

In a message dated 98-06-18 20:23:01 EDT, you write:

> well where sould I start?.... I respect your opinion and with that I'm

> gonna' give 'ya mine.

I see that. I also respect your opinion but it serves as an excellent example

of what I am talking about. We are both on the " same side " , we disagree, and

you were overly antagonistic towards me. If the newsgroup was moderated,

would you have been censored? I don't think this line is " appropriate " for a

" recovery newsgroup " :

>Kim, damn it. I just don't see ANY fucking thing positive about the utter

> BULLSHIT of the past few weeks.

See what I mean? No one is pleasant all the time. Some people get carried

away in flame wars, some people are " enthusiastic " about some topics, and some

people just have bad days. It happens. And if I don't mind being subjected

to " bullshit " , who are you to say I can't?

One more question before I respond to your post: Who are you? When I read

your response, I figured that no one could possibly be this hostile in

response to my post. So I thought we must have gotten into it before and I

looked back on the newsgroup and found nothing from you. Judging from your

post here, you feel strongly about the newsgroup and how it should be handled.

I just don't remember ever seeing you before. What name do you post under?

> >Believe it or not, crossposting helps people.

> I have no evidence one way or the other,

Did you miss the de-lurk thread about a month ago? Several people stated the

same thing.

> but if we have offended 12-steppers

> by baiting them, etc. it's wrong and I won't do it. I have no intention of

> purposely annoying someone or attacking their belief in 12-stepism.

Exactly. *You* won't do it. I don't do it either. I fully respect people's

right to choose the program that is best for them and have said as much on the

newsgroup. However, you nor I have the right to control what another person

posts. This is the usenet.

> >Censorship is wrong. Anyone who doesn't have a killfile or filter can

> >skip the posts that they don't want to read

Moderating is not censorship - it is compartmentalizing.

Dress it up however you like but it amounts to the same thing. If you choose

which posts are " fit " to make it to the newsgroup, it is censorship.

> Not all people can

> read the newsgroups via a newsreader. The discussing of baking in not

> appropriate in comp.os.unix: moderating that group keeps the flow of

> information clear for those that want to read about the titled subject.

I don't have killfiles either but I don't have to read anything that I don't

want to. If I have a post that is by someone that I know is going to be

unpleasant, I skip it. I like having to power to determine what I read and

don't read. I don't want someone else making that choice for me.

> >It's lame. Granted, Reese and others (myself included occasionally) take

> >some things *way* too far but I do believe that fair is fair (to an

extent).

> >Captainusa, Markus, and others regularly post anti-12 step stuff to arna

and

> >araa.

> Yes, it is very lame. Reese is pathological, childish and hurtful. There may

> be someone who - very seriously - wants to discuss some real issues. They

> should not have to wade through vicious garbage.

No one is *made* to wade through anything. You have a choice what to read and

what not to read. Censorship removes that choice. Many of us who defected to

arf12s during the last crosspost (do you remember that one?) wouldn't be here

now if it was moderated because I'd bet many of those posts would have been

censored. Or there would be no crossposting at all. I'd still be a secretly

using stepper.

> Kim, damn it. I just don't see ANY fucking thing positive about the utter

> BULLSHIT of the past few weeks. I listening to you with an open mind but

> what has been spewed in that newsgroup is not discussion, recovery, 12-step

> dialoge, insightful, positive, or helpful in the least.

So, because of a couple of weeks that you didn't like, you suggest that we

prevent any further dialogue between the 2 groups? Because that is what will

happen. If one group is moderated and the other isn't, crossposting becomes

virtually impossible. I think a week or so of bullshit is worth it for the

productive discussions that we have. Since I have no idea who you are, I'm

not sure how long you've been around but there are many examples of this.

> The last deal was a dialogue wherein Reese explains that he admires your

> breasts.......no, I don't get off to it, I find it majorly lame. It wasn't

> EVEN entertaining! Reese's descriptions of passionate moments are pretty

> offensive. I am glad you stopped dating him.

Thanks. Glad you are happy about that. For the record, the breast post was a

troll. It wasn't real. I knew it was going to happen before it did. I don't

mind if Lucy wants to look trashy by posting it. She and I don't get along so

well.

Kim

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June 18, 1998

In a message dated 98-06-18 23:35:59 EDT, P. writes:

<< Hi rebecca and list

> is it right to give free speech to ppl who dont give it to

> to others? by bombing an NG with offensive stuff, then

> these ppl are hampering other ppl's right to free speech. i

> havent looked at the NG for a long time, which from what i

> hear is just as well. would we feel ok with racist stuff

> etc. appearing all the time? i dont think these ppl are

> interested in their human rights. they dont seem to care

> abt anybody elses. modertaing them is just like chucking

> out yobs who try break up peaceful meetings. theyre

> destroying our right to free speech. if they expressed

> themselves in a respectful way, that would be one thing -

> but from what i hear theyre not doing that.

You know, I talked to Kim this afternoon before I went to work about this, and

at that point I was just tired of the whole thing, and frustrated. I thought,

well maybe the idea of a moderated ng is not so bad. I do some pretty physical

work that doesn't take a lot of thinking so my mind is free to wander....I

gave this whole thing a lot of thought tonight, and I am not sure it is a

great idea to moderate the ng. The fact of the matter is that there are

posters from arf12s that have gone and still go to arna and araa and post

information for alternative methods of recovery. In the past there have been

times that the crossposting was so intense that it was as upsetting for the

members of arna as it is for us on arf12s right now. I personally feel that

there was the potential for actual dialogues when arf12s-ers posted

there...but that is not the primary point here. For myself, like Kim, those

crossposts did serve a purpose. I began to get the information I needed and

talk to people; that made the transition of leaving NA much easier for me.

Quite frankly, I would hate to see that flow of information to 12 step ngs

disappear, and I have heard Joe B argue that is is of value. The thing is if

we dish it out, we have to be able to take some of the heat. I also hear Joe B

argue that it is not beneficial for members of arna to crosspost on arf12s. I

think at times it has been. No there is no benefit to what Reese or

Glenn....and now a few of their cohorts are doing. It serves no purpose that I

can fathom. However, when you have free speech, you are bound to get some

crackpots, and right now we are getting more than our fair share. I don't know

what the answer is, but I am not convinced that it is to become moderated. I

am going to kick back here and read the pros and cons that are presented, and

try to be open to all the information presented.

> I posted a pretty immature thing on arf12s a while back -

> but not personal. why do steppers want to be on that NG

> anyway? common courtesy says you dont preach at an atheists

> funeral or whatever. these guys dont mind saying fuck off

> if we post to their NGs - and there are a hell of a lot

> more of them than there are of us.

They want to be there because they are miserable bastards that are intent on

making anyone they come in contact with miserable. When some of them are not

wreaking havoc on arf12s, they are infighting on arna. As for the comment of

not preaching at an atheists funeral--you possibly do if the atheist's wife is

a Christian and that makes her comfortable. We did have a service at my

Dad's(the atheist) funeral for the sake of my Mom. And yeah...they say " fuck

off " when arf12s-ers post on their NG but they can't stop them from doing

so(anyone who wants to can have at it)....also these days I would venture to

say that there are as many regulars on arf12s as there are on arna...(It is NA

posters that are doing this...not those from AA.) We have grown a lot over the

recent months and it particularly pisses Reese off, after all he lost his

girlfriend to arf12s.....a fate worse than deathm in his pea size mind, I

imagine.

Take Care,

Bette

P.

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June 19, 1998

In a message dated 98-06-18 22:59:00 EDT, you write:

> Kim, you brought out some very sensible points about not

> censoring the newsgroup via moderator. Freedom of speech is

> one of my highest values, but when it that day came where that

> Glenn character pounded the newsgroups with about 100 posts

> just to be destructive, I really wavered. I've gotton to where I

> don't care if the newsgroup is moderated, if someone else wants to

> do the dirty work.

Thanks for the response, . You had some good insights. One quick

comment about Glenn: In his defense (not that his behavior deserves defense

but....), he isn't anything like Reese. Reese is obviously angry and taking

it out on the world. Glenn, on the other hand, is just lonely, I think.

Don't forget that during his posting frenzy, he did a couple of posts where he

talked about how he is really fed up with meetings and stuff. He also

actually looked into RR before flaming it unlike *some* people. A couple of

us talked with him on AOL one night and he was a lot different than he is on

the newsgroup. I honestly think he is trying to fit in somewhere. And he was

unlucky enough to have some of the loudest (and rudest) arna'ers throw him a

bone for flaming us. I don't see his stuff as malicious. I see it as a

desperate attempt to " impress " some people and make " friends " . To me, that's

a lot more sad than it is offensive.

Kim

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June 19, 1998

At 18:09 18/06/98 +0100, you wrote:

>There's no reason why we cant have *both* a moderated *and*

>and unmoderated NG. In a sense *this list* is like a

>moderated NG. We could still cross post to the unmoderated

>12sp NGs if we wanted to.

>

<snip>

>

>ok, so some ppl might have benefited from things as are.

>what abt all the ppl who weve never heard from cos they

>couldnt stick it? there could be hundreds of these. lets

>not do the " AA error " - think abt 5% of ppl who are success

>stories and forget the 95% who arent.

>

>P.

This is a good point. The problem with the present arrangement is that

although it is very easy, if you are determined to do so, to skip posts, I

do not believe that people who come to arf12s looking for help will

necessarily know that, or will be prepared to hang around long enough to

find out. A number of people who seek recovery from 12 step programs are in

a vulnerable state I would think, and have been systematically

psychologically abused and undermined already, sometimes for years. My own

feeling is that some sort of easily accessible safe newsgroup environment

would be very supportive for those people. To come to arf12s and see that

many and often most of the posts are from abusive 12 steppers- arf12s is

not going to appear as a very safe environment. And it isn't. It is a

little like a womens' refuge where wife-beaters are allowed to come and

shout at them, all in the interests of free speech, of having a " point of

view " , and someone saying- well, just don't listen. It is appropriate for

people who have already been abused to have a forum where the abuse is not

allowed to get through. People don't _have_ to read the abusive posts, but

they often will. I think quite possibly some of the less brave and

determined people may be baling out of arf12s altogether, getting the

message that there is no escape from the 12 step virus. I think the reject

human Reese and the " troll-for-Christ " Glenn carry an insidious message of

hopelessness to such people. They are the psychological equivalent to

wife-beaters. They come to arf12s mock the wounded, and the gloat over

their ability to walk straight in and do so. What they do has nothing to do

with free speech, and everything to do with abuse.

In the UK, only recently has there been serious moves to stop the process

of rape victimes being cross-examined for three days at a time in the

witness box by the person charged with their rape. It is patently obvious

to many that in that situation, the rapist is taking advantage of the legal

option of simply re-abusing the victim a second time, in public. My point

is that a parallel to this is now happening in internet newsgroups also.

There is still no safe newsgroup where people recovering, or hoping to

recover from ther 12 step experiences can say what they want without being

abused by steppers all over again.

The creation of a moderated newsgroup would not change the status of an

existing one. The present usenet ng arf12s can and will remain as it is.

Neither I, nor anyone else, can un-create it. My point was, and is, that

the creation of a moderated _alternative_ newsgroup for people who do not

want to deal with the garbage that is flowing into arf12s would be a good

idea. Anyone who has objections to participating in such a newsgroup need

not participate in it. Therefore anyone who is concerned about censorship

can continue with things the way they are on arf12s- a moderated newsgroup

would be there for those who wanted it. Nobody would or could be forced to

participate.

Personally, I think the censorship argument is somewhat of a red herring.

No-one is proposing censoring any existing newsgroup, not would that be

possible. If you subscribe to an email list and then abuse people, you get

unsubscribed. This has happened here within the last 24 hours. Where are

the cries of " censorship! " for that? A moderated newsgroup would simply

make the same discussion, free of the repetetive abuse, accessible to

anyone with a newsreader or web browser. It would not take anything away

from the present options, not would it stop anyone making their views heard

on any non-moderated newsgroup.

Joe Berenbaum

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June 19, 1998

Hi Joe:

How are you feeling these days, I have been thinking of you lately. Did you

get any use out of the psychosynthesis site?

Anyway you said:

My point was, and is, that

the creation of a moderated _alternative_ newsgroup for people who do not

want to deal with the garbage that is flowing into arf12s would be a good

idea. Anyone who has objections to participating in such a newsgroup need

not participate in it. Therefore anyone who is concerned about censorship

can continue with things the way they are on arf12s- a moderated newsgroup

would be there for those who wanted it. Nobody would or could be forced to

participate.<

I agree with the moderated version, I had unsubscribed from this list

because I could not stand the language of one of the guest, we know who, and

then signed back on to see if things were going to change. But I would

prefer not to have that kind of stuff in my mailbox at all.

Just my thought for the day, and to let you know I was thinking of you.

Your SMART friend,

Margie:)

http://expage.com/page/alcoholanddrugrecovery

Re: newgroup is gettin' to be a waste o' time

>At 18:09 18/06/98 +0100, you wrote:

>

>>There's no reason why we cant have *both* a moderated *and*

>>and unmoderated NG. In a sense *this list* is like a

>>moderated NG. We could still cross post to the unmoderated

>>12sp NGs if we wanted to.

>>

><snip>

>>

>>ok, so some ppl might have benefited from things as are.

>>what abt all the ppl who weve never heard from cos they

>>couldnt stick it? there could be hundreds of these. lets

>>not do the " AA error " - think abt 5% of ppl who are success

>>stories and forget the 95% who arent.

>>

>>P.

>

>This is a good point. The problem with the present arrangement is that

>although it is very easy, if you are determined to do so, to skip posts, I

>do not believe that people who come to arf12s looking for help will

>necessarily know that, or will be prepared to hang around long enough to

>find out. A number of people who seek recovery from 12 step programs are in

>a vulnerable state I would think, and have been systematically

>psychologically abused and undermined already, sometimes for years. My own

>feeling is that some sort of easily accessible safe newsgroup environment

>would be very supportive for those people. To come to arf12s and see that

>many and often most of the posts are from abusive 12 steppers- arf12s is

>not going to appear as a very safe environment. And it isn't. It is a

>little like a womens' refuge where wife-beaters are allowed to come and

>shout at them, all in the interests of free speech, of having a " point of

>view " , and someone saying- well, just don't listen. It is appropriate for

>people who have already been abused to have a forum where the abuse is not

>allowed to get through. People don't _have_ to read the abusive posts, but

>they often will. I think quite possibly some of the less brave and

>determined people may be baling out of arf12s altogether, getting the

>message that there is no escape from the 12 step virus. I think the reject

>human Reese and the " troll-for-Christ " Glenn carry an insidious message of

>hopelessness to such people. They are the psychological equivalent to

>wife-beaters. They come to arf12s mock the wounded, and the gloat over

>their ability to walk straight in and do so. What they do has nothing to do

>with free speech, and everything to do with abuse.

>

>In the UK, only recently has there been serious moves to stop the process

>of rape victimes being cross-examined for three days at a time in the

>witness box by the person charged with their rape. It is patently obvious

>to many that in that situation, the rapist is taking advantage of the legal

>option of simply re-abusing the victim a second time, in public. My point

>is that a parallel to this is now happening in internet newsgroups also.

>There is still no safe newsgroup where people recovering, or hoping to

>recover from ther 12 step experiences can say what they want without being

>abused by steppers all over again.

>

>The creation of a moderated newsgroup would not change the status of an

>existing one. The present usenet ng arf12s can and will remain as it is.

>Neither I, nor anyone else, can un-create it. My point was, and is, that

>the creation of a moderated _alternative_ newsgroup for people who do not

>want to deal with the garbage that is flowing into arf12s would be a good

>idea. Anyone who has objections to participating in such a newsgroup need

>not participate in it. Therefore anyone who is concerned about censorship

>can continue with things the way they are on arf12s- a moderated newsgroup

>would be there for those who wanted it. Nobody would or could be forced to

>participate.

>

>Personally, I think the censorship argument is somewhat of a red herring.

>No-one is proposing censoring any existing newsgroup, not would that be

>possible. If you subscribe to an email list and then abuse people, you get

>unsubscribed. This has happened here within the last 24 hours. Where are

>the cries of " censorship! " for that? A moderated newsgroup would simply

>make the same discussion, free of the repetetive abuse, accessible to

>anyone with a newsreader or web browser. It would not take anything away

>from the present options, not would it stop anyone making their views heard

>on any non-moderated newsgroup.

>

>Joe Berenbaum

>

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June 19, 1998

At 10:30 19/06/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi Joe:

>How are you feeling these days, I have been thinking of you lately. Did

>you get any use out of the psychosynthesis site?

Hi Margie. I've been okay, -ish, but quite up and down. I went to a

hospital appointment last week and the whole thing put me mostly out of

action for a while- but I was able to type stuff of course... I wasn't

well enough to get to my acupuncture appointment today but I perked up a

bit later on. On Friday nights on Channel 4 here we have comedy most of the

evening so I can lay around and laugh at Sybil Shepherd wearing bubble-wrap

and other such humourous sights. She hasn't aged that much since Taxi

Driver. Now why didn't she have a career path like Jodie , Harvey

Keitel and de Niro? Her sitcom program " Sybil " is funny, sometimes,

but it definitely isn't art. The Pschosynthesis site is really good, and PS

is a good way of looking at things. I've got a few PS books to read and I

want to do some of this stuff on me, remove some of my blocks. My idea is

that as and when I get well enough I will train as a Psychosynthesis guide

myself. We shall see.

<snip>

>I agree with the moderated version, I had unsubscribed from this list

>because I could not stand the language of one of the guest, we know who,

>and>then signed back on to see if things were going to change. But I would

>prefer not to have that kind of stuff in my mailbox at all.

>Just my thought for the day, and to let you know I was thinking of you.

>Your SMART friend,

>Margie:)

Thanks Margie! Seeya later,

Joe Berenbaum

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June 19, 1998

Damn Joe, that was well said. So much so that I want it to float around a

second time here in this reply. I think that the moderation will be a moot

point because it's too time consuming. But I agree with the points

expressed.

Joe said: