Guest guest Posted December 26, 1998 Report Share Posted December 26, 1998 Hi, You might ask them what will happen to you and your drinking patterns if you leave AA and no longer practice the steps. You might also ask them what they think will happen to people who resist the twelve steps and go to non-12 step groups or just return to their homes and quit drinking on their own. You might ask them what might happen to you should you associate with drinkers even though you've decided not to drink and made that covenent with yourself. You might ask them for research comparisons of the effectivenss of AA verses these newer approaches re: , motivational interviewing. You might ask nothing and be part of the in crowd at AA who will likely tell you to " take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth " or to stop " intellectualizing " . Oh, my you are a dangerous person. Hap-hap, happy New Year. Carol Francey, RR Vancouver At 02:21 AM 12/26/98 EST, you wrote: >I am still going to AA meetings. COuld you suggest a few good questions I >could ask long time members to get insight into the more cultish angle of the >program that you folks alledge and despise? Of course I'm not expecting them >to give me a " straight answer " if it's a " straight question " about something >actually cultish, if there is indeed a cult element; but perhaps their >response might be telling somehow anyway? > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Build Your Group Headquarters at Fortune City? >http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 1998 Report Share Posted December 26, 1998 Thank you for giving up the train on line. I was discussing last night quitting your group because I couldn't stand anymore side talk. I hope to make good use of this opportunity to further the cause of religious freedom and personal integrity of those who wish to quit substances and hope the politics will not get in the way of this very important work for which we have little time, life considered. Yes, please lets focus. And thanks. Plus happy New Year and new trains. Carol Francey, RR Vancouver. At 01:20 AM 12/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >> Mabee wrote: >> >> Pupship, dear! >> >> I am so happy to get ONE message tonight that has something to do with the " 12-step-free " >> >> theme of this group. Am I the only one who is really getting fed up with coming >> >> home to find more circumcision messages in my box? I don't deny that it is an >> >> important topic, but maybe those of you who want to continue the circumcision >> >> discussion can do so privately... >> > >, > >Thanks, I needed that. You are absolutely correct. > >It is going to be hard, I'll be sitting here at my keyboard sorely >tempted, but I'll have to just not try to have the last word, as hard as >that is for me sometimes. (or most of the time) <G> > >If anyone wants to discuss the subject with me I'll be happy to respond >in private e-mail and I can refer anyone really interested in the >subject to other forums. Of course, this is _self_-censure which under >the circumstances I think appropriate. You can all say what you want. > >Ken Ragge > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Gobble up some brain food, then Yak Back in our chat room >See new Detective in a Jar episodes; Aladdin and Lion King comics >http://ads./click/131/0 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 1998 Report Share Posted December 26, 1998 At 12:44 AM 12/26/98 -0800, Ken R wrote: >Pupship@... wrote: >> >> I am still going to AA meetings. COuld you suggest a few good questions I >> could ask long time members to get insight into the more cultish angle of the >> program that you folks alledge and despise? Of course I'm not expecting them >> to give me a " straight answer " if it's a " straight question " about something Just not expecting a 'straight answer' seems to be raising your suspicions. >> actually cultish, if there is indeed a cult element; but perhaps their >> response might be telling somehow anyway? I think all you'll ever get them to say is what they believe, and it looks like you already know what they believe anyway. You seem to be asking, how would you know if their statements and actions are cult-like? Maybe you could go to a web search engine and type 'cult', and see what AA might have in common with descriptions of other groups people think of as cults. That's what I did a couple of years ago. >Pupship, > >One thing I did toward the end of my stay in AA would be if I was one of >the first to " share, " I'd say something critical of doctrine and watch >those who spoke later kept " just by coincidence " sharing their own > " near-death " experience or that of a dear friend who died who believed >the same heretical idea I'd expressed earlier. > > " I've just finished 90 meetings in 90 days and I'm doing fine and don't >need to work the steps. " or need a sponsor, or tell everything on my >fifth step, etc. Their almost always _indirect_ responses are an >unwitting way of getting past the defenses everyone has. If you aren't >directly challenged, it is difficult to directly protect yourself. This is an excellent point, and it happens with almost ANYTHING that isn't in line with the program, steps, and 'appropriate' running of the meetings. At about three months in AA I was at a beginner's/newcomer's meeting, and one guy who was almost brand new talked for about 15 minutes (this was a meeting with 8 to 12 people, and the idea was to give time for everyone to talk, and at least get the newcomers' first names). While he was talking my sponsor (a couple of years sober) raised his hand discretely at the discussion leader, so that he would be the next to be called on. After this guy ran out of steam, the discussion leader called on my sponsor, who then said: " My name's Phil and I'm a grateful alcoholic. When I was new to the program, I was told to sit dnw, shut up, and listen. I didn't know a damn thing about staying sober, so I had to listen to those who did, who had experience staying sober. " He went on like that for about five minutes. In those newcomers meetings I often heard things like that, designed to shut up newcomers, often indirectly as above, sometimes more directly (perhaps aimed at newcomers who can't or won't take a hint): " Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. " " God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason. He intended us to listen more than we talk. " That last one is a tactic of magical thinking/redefinitons/puns that I've often seen in mainstream religion as well as in *A. The true reasons for two ears and one mouth have nothing to with how much one should talk vs. listen. An example of puns (connecting together two meanings of a word that aren't related): " Today is a gift. That's why it's called the present. " On the slogans (sort of off topic), there seem to be a lot of three-word and three-phrase cliches in AA - there's a rhythm to it or something. " Sit down, shut up, and listen " . " Happy, Joyous, and Free. " " Stupid, Boring, and Glum. " It seems to have started with (or before) Bill - the last two are in the Big Book. " Experience, Strength, and Hope, " from the AA Preamble. >Another thing typical in cult groups of all sorts is to attack ones >trust of their ability to think and trust their feelings. In AA, this >is done indirectly by the speaker attacking their own (past, >particularly) thoughts and feelings. " My best thinking got me here " , usually said in response to someone showing signs of independent thought. >One of the most important thing in any cult indoctrination meeting is >unanimity of opinion. You may hear them argue about how to properly do >the fourth step, get a sponsor or whatever. They _never_ argue, even if The question isn't " should I do a fifth step " , but maybe " when should I " but that one is clearly " just after you've done your fourth. Have you started on your fourth step yet? " . Or, " who should I do my fifth step with? " >just amongst themselves, the importance of the key aspects of doctrine. Having heard and seen people tear me up in AA (indirectly, as described above) for expressing my own thoughts and feelings rather than those of the group, I decided to see, if I repeated some of the most outlandish and fundamentalist dogma I'd heard, would I get any dissenting response to what I said? " I'm only alive by the Grace of God. I have to remember to be grateful for God for letting me live through all the things I did. If I got what I deserved I'd be dead. " Even in my first two years in AA, going to meetings every day and somehow magically believing just like those around me that " everything I need is in the first 164 pages of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous " , but I never really believed the statement " if I got what I deserved... " . When I said it in a few meetings in my last couple of years of going to meetings I never heard a dissenting word, and perhaps one or two people said " I like what Ben said. " There were some people who were truly annoyed at my " sharing " , because they knew what I really believed, and that when I was repeating dogma in meetings that I didn't believe it and I (often) was just being sarcastic. But they never said anything about it. ----- http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley/seasons_greetings.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 1998 Report Share Posted December 26, 1998 I am still going to AA meetings. COuld you suggest a few good questions I > could ask long time members to get insight into the more cultish angle of the > program that you folks alledge and despise? Of course I'm not expecting them > to give me a " straight answer " if it's a " straight question " about something > actually cultish, if there is indeed a cult element; but perhaps their > response might be telling somehow anyway? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Perhaps before posing questions to AA groupers, it would be a good idea to get clear in your own head where you stand on addiction & recovery ideology, and where your ideas differ from AA dogma. Keep in mind that a common feature of cults is the pathologizing of dissent, such as " that's your disease talking " or " I used to think like you; soon you'll come to believe " etc. For myself, in addition to not being able to accept the idea of a rescuing deity on religious grounds (rendering the steps worthless for me), I can't accept that drinking is about anything other than... well, drinking. When I was in " treatment " and the counselor would ask the group, " What kinds of things do people need to do do in order to not drink? " my answer was always " They need to not pick up the drink, bring it to their mouth, and swallow it. " Of course this was " incorrect " ; everyone _knows_ that in order to avoid intoxication, you MUST: go to " meetings " identify " character defects " (and hope some magic power will remove them) never be Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired identify some childhood trauma and let smarmy people " hug the hurt away " or some other such tripe etc., etc. If you are presently not drinking then you are obviously capable of saying no to booze. Ask yourself, " Would I be incapable of saying no to booze if I didn't go to meetings? write inventories? believe I am powerless? whatever? " Once your answers are clear to you, compare them to what you hear in AA. ~Railroad Rita ----- See the original message at /list/12-step-free/?start=1361 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 1998 Report Share Posted December 26, 1998 I've been on this list since it started but I haven't felt like contributing anything much for a while. It is interesting to explore the various subjects that arise in a discussion, but I think now that as a list we seem to have got a bit sidetracked. My own interest in being on this list is to participate in helping people to get out of 12 step groups if they want to, or to better resist being forced into them, or into their commercial parallel of 12-step " treatment " , or to recover from the effects, by (along with others) providing some intelligent discussion and helping people to de-program themselves from the self-defeating set of beliefs they may have adopted in a 12 step group, or considered adopting, or find are being forced onto them. I'm trying to remember what the welcome message to new subscribers to this list said about this and I can't remember it at all. Ken, do you think you could repost that please? JB ======================================================== At 08:51 AM 12/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >Thank you for giving up the train on line. I was discussing last night >quitting your group because I couldn't stand anymore side talk. I hope to >make good use of this opportunity to further the cause of religious freedom >and personal integrity of those who wish to quit substances and hope the >politics will not get in the way of this very important work for which we >have little time, life considered. Yes, please lets focus. And thanks. Plus >happy New Year and new trains. Carol Francey, RR Vancouver. > >At 01:20 AM 12/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >>> Mabee wrote: >>> >>> Pupship, dear! >>> >>> I am so happy to get ONE message tonight that has something to do with >the " 12-step-free " >>> >>> theme of this group. Am I the only one who is really getting fed up >with coming >>> >>> home to find more circumcision messages in my box? I don't deny that >it is an >>> >>> important topic, but maybe those of you who want to continue the >circumcision >>> >>> discussion can do so privately... >>> >> >>, >> >>Thanks, I needed that. You are absolutely correct. >> >>It is going to be hard, I'll be sitting here at my keyboard sorely >>tempted, but I'll have to just not try to have the last word, as hard as >>that is for me sometimes. (or most of the time) <G> >> >>If anyone wants to discuss the subject with me I'll be happy to respond >>in private e-mail and I can refer anyone really interested in the >>subject to other forums. Of course, this is _self_-censure which under >>the circumstances I think appropriate. You can all say what you want. >> >>Ken Ragge >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Gobble up some brain food, then Yak Back in our chat room >>See new Detective in a Jar episodes; Aladdin and Lion King comics >>http://ads./click/131/0 >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 1998 Report Share Posted December 27, 1998 At 04:16 AM 12/27/98 +0000, you wrote: >I've been on this list since it started but I haven't felt like >contributing anything much for a while. It is interesting to explore the >various subjects that arise in a discussion, but I think now that as a list >we seem to have got a bit sidetracked. Again, I agreed but since you have recently changed topic I'm hopeful for revolution in the recovery industry. >My own interest in being on this >list is to participate in helping people to get out of 12 step groups if >they want to, or to better resist being forced into them, Oh, ditto. Let's talk about the Canadian system and its court mandated initiatives driven by Van mayor and the attorney general after seeing what a " wonderful " job the Portland Oregon court team is doing. What! >or into their >commercial parallel of 12-step " treatment " , Yes, this too. Did you know that residential treatment centers in the USA, charging 15,000 a month are on the New York and American stock exchange. Talk about needing to keep the disease and useless (for most) 12 step program going turns into $. I was shocked! >or to recover from the effects, I have a participant who is detoxing from alcohol with atavan, in reasonable health but rebounding from a motorcycle accident and futile efforts to rekindle a romance at Christmas. I'm not going to babysit him but what works best for the detox, Gattorade, Vit a,b,c, thiamine, Valerian between Ativan. Detoxes are full and if you are basically healthy and not drinking over a pint a day for a month you should be able to detox on your own. He knows the crisis line and alcohol and drug line so he can call them too and the hospital. These crisis calls-hard to tell manipulation from remorse from too much bridge burning. >by (along with others) providing some intelligent discussion and helping >people to de-program themselves from the self-defeating or happily supportive of drinking or drugging sets of beliefs >set of beliefs they >may have adopted in a 12 step group, or considered adopting, or find are >being forced onto them. > >I'm trying to remember what the welcome message to new subscribers to this >list said about this and I can't remember it at all. Ken, do you think you >could repost that please? I'm reading " Addiction, Change and Choice " by hmmmm, oh yes, the wonderful Vince Fox. Well done though RR has changed since and for the better in bookform. Also another participant says booze is the only thing that helps his rheumotoid arthritis. No cortizoid shots, not medications, anti-inflamatories, glucosomine or relaxations exercises. So, I said, maybe if you refused to use booze when you were in pain the pain would have less intensity as it may be a well worn path for your Beast to get booze. Any input? Cheers, your curious comrade, Carol > >JB > >======================================================== > >At 08:51 AM 12/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Thank you for giving up the train on line. I was discussing last night >>quitting your group because I couldn't stand anymore side talk. I hope to >>make good use of this opportunity to further the cause of religious freedom >>and personal integrity of those who wish to quit substances and hope the >>politics will not get in the way of this very important work for which we >>have little time, life considered. Yes, please lets focus. And thanks. Plus >>happy New Year and new trains. Carol Francey, RR Vancouver. >> >>At 01:20 AM 12/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >>>> Mabee wrote: >>>> >>>> Pupship, dear! >>>> >>>> I am so happy to get ONE message tonight that has something to do with >>the " 12-step-free " >>>> >>>> theme of this group. Am I the only one who is really getting fed up >>with coming >>>> >>>> home to find more circumcision messages in my box? I don't deny that >>it is an >>>> >>>> important topic, but maybe those of you who want to continue the >>circumcision >>>> >>>> discussion can do so privately... >>>> >>> >>>, >>> >>>Thanks, I needed that. You are absolutely correct. >>> >>>It is going to be hard, I'll be sitting here at my keyboard sorely >>>tempted, but I'll have to just not try to have the last word, as hard as >>>that is for me sometimes. (or most of the time) <G> >>> >>>If anyone wants to discuss the subject with me I'll be happy to respond >>>in private e-mail and I can refer anyone really interested in the >>>subject to other forums. Of course, this is _self_-censure which under >>>the circumstances I think appropriate. You can all say what you want. >>> >>>Ken Ragge >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>Gobble up some brain food, then Yak Back in our chat room >>>See new Detective in a Jar episodes; Aladdin and Lion King comics >>>http://ads./click/131/0 >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 1998 Report Share Posted December 27, 1998 Dear Joe, You say your interest in this list is to help people get out of 12 step groups if they want to? This list helped me to do that. I was In OA and NA, and am now out. This list had a lot to do with it. The things I read here confirmed things I had observed as well as things I was thinking. I have changed my life as a result of things I have read here. Intelligent discussion? Yes. You have that here, and after being in 12 Step groups that was most refreshing! I was also glad to know people were able to quit drinking without AA. If you can quit drinking, I can quit killing myself with junkfood and other substances. I notice some of you still drink ocassionally. That is encouraging to me because it tells me I can eat a chocolate bar in the future. It doesn't have to go away forever. Getting over the self-defeating set of beliefs is something I could use some help with. I'm working on it, but anything you all want to post on how you have done that will be read by me. The biggest belief I resented was the Judeo-Christian " God, " the Bible and Jesus being forced on me. I have spiritual beliefs, but I'm not a Bible-thumper. I had thought the Twelve Step Programs just required some form of " Higher Power, " so I was very surprised at all of this religion! Now, from the things I've read here, I see this is very common in 12 Step Programs. Snowy >I've been on this list since it started but I haven't felt like >contributing anything much for a while. It is interesting to explore the >various subjects that arise in a discussion, but I think now that as a list >we seem to have got a bit sidetracked. My own interest in being on this >list is to participate in helping people to get out of 12 step groups if >they want to, or to better resist being forced into them, or into their >commercial parallel of 12-step " treatment " , or to recover from the effects, >by (along with others) providing some intelligent discussion and helping >people to de-program themselves from the self-defeating set of beliefs they >may have adopted in a 12 step group, or considered adopting, or find are >being forced onto them. > >I'm trying to remember what the welcome message to new subscribers to this >list said about this and I can't remember it at all. Ken, do you think you >could repost that please? > >JB > >======================================================== > >At 08:51 AM 12/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Thank you for giving up the train on line. I was discussing last night >>quitting your group because I couldn't stand anymore side talk. I hope to >>make good use of this opportunity to further the cause of religious freedom >>and personal integrity of those who wish to quit substances and hope the >>politics will not get in the way of this very important work for which we >>have little time, life considered. Yes, please lets focus. And thanks. Plus >>happy New Year and new trains. Carol Francey, RR Vancouver. >> >>At 01:20 AM 12/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >>>> Mabee wrote: >>>> >>>> Pupship, dear! >>>> >>>> I am so happy to get ONE message tonight that has something to do with >>the " 12-step-free " >>>> >>>> theme of this group. Am I the only one who is really getting fed up >>with coming >>>> >>>> home to find more circumcision messages in my box? I don't deny that >>it is an >>>> >>>> important topic, but maybe those of you who want to continue the >>circumcision >>>> >>>> discussion can do so privately... >>>> >>> >>>, >>> >>>Thanks, I needed that. You are absolutely correct. >>> >>>It is going to be hard, I'll be sitting here at my keyboard sorely >>>tempted, but I'll have to just not try to have the last word, as hard as >>>that is for me sometimes. (or most of the time) <G> >>> >>>If anyone wants to discuss the subject with me I'll be happy to respond >>>in private e-mail and I can refer anyone really interested in the >>>subject to other forums. Of course, this is _self_-censure which under >>>the circumstances I think appropriate. You can all say what you want. >>> >>>Ken Ragge >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>Gobble up some brain food, then Yak Back in our chat room >>>See new Detective in a Jar episodes; Aladdin and Lion King comics >>>http://ads./click/131/0 >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 1998 Report Share Posted December 27, 1998 At 11:22 PM 12/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Joe, >You say your interest in this list is to help people get out of 12 step >groups if they want to? This list helped me to do that. I was In OA and >NA, and am now out. This list had a lot to do with it. The things I read >here confirmed things I had observed as well as things I was thinking. >I have changed my life as a result of things I have read here. Good! It works! >Intelligent discussion? Yes. You have that here, and after being in 12 >Step groups that was most refreshing! >I was also glad to know people were able to quit drinking without AA. If >you can quit drinking, I can quit killing myself with junkfood and other >substances. I notice some of you still drink ocassionally. That is >encouraging to me because it tells me I can eat a chocolate bar in the >future. It doesn't have to go away forever. I used to go to OA myself, along time ago. I do find that my eating isn't quite right somehow and I find I don't stick to the kind of diet I need for my medical condition, which is quite perverse behaviour. I found hypoglycemia was the explanation for at least some of my difficulties and am currently looking into something closely related to this called, for want of a (much) better name, " carbohydrate addiction " . I think there might really be something in this- it seems to be closely related to hypoglycemia and one's desire for carbohydrates. There is a very interesting web page on this subject at this url; http://www.toon.org/~cadis/ I am going to look into this further. It seems that there are explanations for certain " food problems " that may not be part of the so-called disease of addiction at all, but mAY simply be metabolic disorders, with apparently simple solutions. No spiritual program (yawn) necessary! >Getting over the self-defeating set of beliefs is something I could use some >help with. I'm working on it, but anything you all want to post on how you >have done that will be read by me. One pf the most useful things I ever did about this was to get a sheet of paper and simply write down all the self-defeating beliefs I had ever had. You don't have to think too hard to do this- just write down anything that comes intyo your head, you can always cross it off again afterwards if you don't agrre that it should be on the list. I got all sorts of stuff, here are a few at random; Be quiet Don't ask for what you want Sex is dirty You're never going to make it Life is hard Don't trust people and so on. But I got a few pages in the end! Once you get a feeling for the kind of stuff that is lurking in there it gets pretty easy to see what kind of conditioning you've got. The sad thing is that this stuff, until you recognise it, runs your life for you. These beliefs have all the appearance of reality so it is a subtle distortion of your life experience that you need to look out for. The good news is that once you know what the self-defeating beliefs are, you can start to change them immediately. No long-term Freudian psychoanalysis required! Once you know what some of these beliefs are it is relatively easy to apply REBT and cognitive distortions or whatever tools you like to change them. I used a book called " Self Esteem- A Proven Program of Cognitive Techniques " by McKay and Fanning, pub. New Harbinger, but that was some years ago and it could even be out of print by now. It is definitely the best cognitive book I have ever seen. Another book that covers the same ground pretty well is " Feeling Good " by Burns. For REBT the best book I know of is " When AA Doesn't Work For You " by Albert Ellis and Emmet Velten. >The biggest belief I resented was the Judeo-Christian " God, " the Bible and >Jesus being forced on me. I have spiritual beliefs, but I'm not a >Bible-thumper. I had thought the Twelve Step Programs just required some >form of " Higher Power, " so I was very surprised at all of this religion! >Now, from the things I've read here, I see this is very common in 12 Step >Programs. >Snowy Well yes, it is. Be afraid of the Godly folk. Be very afraid. In an AA meeting noone can hear you scream... ;-) Joe Berenbaum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 I have been on tamoxifen for three years. My eyesight has gotten worse. I have to wear glasses to read now. And I do not like to drive at night. I broke down and bought a car in March though. My other one was starting to give us more trouble than it was worse but I was afraid to take on a payment when the one I had was paid off. Debbi trudebi@... more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 , I started following IE last Saturday so I'm still trying to adjust but I think the most important thing for me is making peace with food. My cravings are practically gone. As soon as I changed my attitude and said there were no more rules around " good " and " bad " foods I stopped wanting to eat all the " bad " foods. I have stopped obsessing and thinking about food constantly except when I get physically hungry, which is how it's supposed to be. > > Since all of us combined have read a lot from different books about > IE I was wondering if people could share what the most important > lessons they have learned about IE are. > I too have noticed how little it takes to fill my stomache when i > really pay attention so for me using my fist as a guide to the > amount I should serve myself has been a great lesson. That one I > learned from WD. > Also from WD about the acid in our stomaches. Its my understading > that it is a supply and demand thing and that this acid is also what > makes us hungry? Is that right? So with consistantly eating the > smaller portions our bodies are asking for, they produce less acid > and thus less hunger? > I think this one is important because i remember a time when i > really believed i had a huge appitite and that it would never > change. I was never told that it could be and I know that is partly > why I felt so helpless for so long. > Imagine if people knew their appitites would decrease up to 1/3 less > just by following thier hunger! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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