Re: thoughts on Women For Sobriety?

[Guest guest]

At 01:20 PM 2/9/99 -0800, jovian f. wrote:

>Yes, they believe in the disease model and so does SOS. Only Rational

>Recovery, Transtheoretical Model and SMART don't. Carol

Actually, I don't know that SOS takes a position on the disease model.

While (SOS founder, author of three books on it) may

have supported the idea in one or more of his books, and many, perhaps a

majority, of SOS members believe it too, I certainly don't, nor do many

others on the SOS mailing list. Whether 'it' is a disease has several

times been the source of flaming discussion on the SOS list.

I don't recall exactly what, if anything, may have wrote

on the subject, but I do know in his first book he wrote about the 'lizard

brain' as an early evolutionary part of the brain that gets addicted -

the 'lizard brain' has sort of become SOS dogma in connection with

alcoholism.

>

>At 03:52 PM 2/9/99 GMT, you wrote:

>>Anyone have any thoughts about " Women For Sobriety " ?

>>

>>I recently received some brochures from them and they claim to believe

>>in the " disease " model. Are they simply XA in different clothing?

>>

>>banshee

I've heard of WFS for years, and found their web site a year or two

ago. While it was started as a reaction to the male-dominated AA and

doesn't have the ego-crushing 12 steps, there does seem to be a lot of

dogma there.

The current web site is <http://www.womenforsobriety.org>. Check out

this link to see the qualifications to run a WFS meeting:

<http://www.womenforsobriety.org/wfs_moderator.html>. It looks a bit anal

retentive to me, as though they want to be sure that WFS meetings remain

'pure' WFS. In this respect it appears very similar to Al-Anon, another

organization dominated by anal rentive women.

I've also heard of 'Men for Sobriety', an offshoot of WFS, but don't

know anything about it.

-----

http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley/seasons_greetings.html

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[Guest guest]

I had a similar experience - was raped in college, prior to sobriety. I

didn't go to the police, instead I terrorized the man...haunting him,

breaking into his home, stealing from him, destroying his vehicle, etc.

Well, years later I did my steps with a sponsor and guess who I owed amends

to! Yep, the rapist. I followed directions like a good little recovering

alkie and I was suicidal afterward. I felt so sick and guilty and ashamed.

I had betrayed my own self.

That alone has convinced me to stay the hell away from those meetings and

control freak sponsors.

Thank you for listening,

Ang

" I haven't been the same since that house fell on my sister. "

_______________________________________________________

Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

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[Guest guest]

>

> I know what you mean.... I was raped by a guy in the program and his friend

> then harrassed for two years afterwards. Even today, most contemporary women

> in the program tell me that I should forgive them, and that if only I hadn't

> put myself in that position....

Huh? Isn't this the 90's? Forgive them? A rapist? Sorry, but that

is *bullshit*!

Put yourself in that position? I can't believe that women are

actually saying this! Well they wouldn't be women that I'd want to

know for long. Actually what had started my drinking was my suddenly

realizing the extent of my abuse (that was triggered by my training to

be a rape crisis counselor). I never succeeded in finishing the

course. I do know though that " forgiveness " wasn't one of the things

discussed.

> This bullshit is the force which is motivating

> my web site which will be up this weekend. www.AAdeprogramming.com

> As far as forgiveness goes, I'll forgive a five year old who spills milk on my

> rug, or a girlfriend who gets ketchup on my sweater, but assault and

> abuse..... that's another matter entirely. I'm not Jesus Christ, and I won't

> pretend to be.

>

> The way I see it, if I do what Jesus Christ did, I'll get what Jesus Christ

> got.... holes in my hands and two boards nailed to my back.

I love your analogy

It's interesting that the same social dynamic that supports rape

crisis centers (which do some incredibly difficult work, especially

with children), also supports garbage institutions like XA.

banshee

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[Guest guest]

<<I had a similar experience - was raped in college, prior to sobriety. I

didn't go to the police, instead I terrorized the man...haunting him,

breaking into his home, stealing from him, destroying his vehicle, etc.

Well, years later I did my steps with a sponsor and guess who I owed amends

to! Yep, the rapist. I followed directions like a good little recovering

alkie and I was suicidal afterward. I felt so sick and guilty and ashamed.

I had betrayed my own self.

That alone has convinced me to stay the hell away from those meetings and

control freak sponsors.

Thank you for listening,

Ang>>

It's amazing how the program messes with a person's mind isn't it? I was just

thinking about my past sponsors earlier today, and each one that I fired was

canned because they INFRINGED MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. The first sponsor I

had (a Big Book thumper man) told me a story of how he and his girlfriend were

" doing it " in a parked car, and noticed that a policeman was spying on them

from his car. Then he proceeded to explain how it was his fault, and ignored

completely the abuse of authority which put a real big question mark in my

head. Then, when I was to choose a higher power of my own understanding, I

did so. I think I had picked the Sporty Spice Girl as I had just discovered

the benefits of exercise. He trembled in anger that it would probably be

better for me to rethink my higher power since there's only ONE GOD, MAY I

FIND HIM NOW. (This is a gross violation of my freedom of religion)

The second sponsor told me to read page 449 ten times so I would learn to

accept the rape and shut up stop complaining about the rapist (one of God's

creatures)

(This violates my freedom of expression - she had to go.)

The third sponsor I had told me flat out that I should not put my anti-AA

thoughts down on paper. " You're not allowed to write! " she screamed. and told

me that I wasn't allowed to walk out of meetings either.

I fired her too. (This is a clear infringment of freedom of the press and

something else too I'm sure)

My sponsor now loves the idea of the www.AAdeprogramming.com site (coming this

weekend), and thinks it's a great healing tool for me.

go figure.

Apple

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 04:57 PM 2/11/99 EST, you wrote:

>

>

>

><<I had a similar experience - was raped in college, prior to sobriety. I

>didn't go to the police, instead I terrorized the man...haunting him,

>breaking into his home, stealing from him, destroying his vehicle, etc.

>Well, years later I did my steps with a sponsor and guess who I owed amends

>to! Yep, the rapist. I followed directions like a good little recovering

>alkie and I was suicidal afterward. I felt so sick and guilty and ashamed.

>I had betrayed my own self.

>That alone has convinced me to stay the hell away from those meetings and

>control freak sponsors.

>Thank you for listening,

>Ang>>

>

>It's amazing how the program messes with a person's mind isn't it? I was

just

>thinking about my past sponsors earlier today, and each one that I fired was

>canned because they INFRINGED MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. The first sponsor I

>had (a Big Book thumper man) told me a story of how he and his girlfriend

were

> " doing it " in a parked car, and noticed that a policeman was spying on them

>from his car. Then he proceeded to explain how it was his fault, and ignored

>completely the abuse of authority which put a real big question mark in my

>head. Then, when I was to choose a higher power of my own understanding, I

>did so. I think I had picked the Sporty Spice Girl as I had just discovered

>the benefits of exercise. He trembled in anger that it would probably be

>better for me to rethink my higher power since there's only ONE GOD, MAY I

>FIND HIM NOW. (This is a gross violation of my freedom of religion)

>

>The second sponsor told me to read page 449 ten times so I would learn to

>accept the rape and shut up stop complaining about the rapist (one of God's

>creatures)

>(This violates my freedom of expression - she had to go.)

>

>The third sponsor I had told me flat out that I should not put my anti-AA

>thoughts down on paper. " You're not allowed to write! " she screamed. and

told

>me that I wasn't allowed to walk out of meetings either.

>I fired her too. (This is a clear infringment of freedom of the press and

>something else too I'm sure)

>

>My sponsor now loves the idea of the www.AAdeprogramming.com site (coming

this

>weekend), and thinks it's a great healing tool for me.

>

>go figure.

>Apple

I can explain this! A small proportion of 12 step members retain enough of

their ability to think and enough mental health to be able to acknowledge

certain truths, such as [1] criticism of AA could actually be good for AA

if it is taken seriously, and is not necessarily a form of heresy at all

and [2] it is not actually necessary for someone to forgive the person who

abused them and certainly not before they have taken the time and done

whatever they need need to process the whole thing. But such enlightened

people can be thin on the ground and tend not to be the ones who you hear

from the most. The empty vessels make the most noise, as is customary.

Joe Berenbaum

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I am sort of late in replying to this, as I have been away from e-mail for about

a week, but at the risk of repeating what someone else may have said, I have to

say that the idea that you should forgive an abuser is just plain loathesome. I

think people who say this don't even have a clue what forgiveness is, or when it

should be exercised.

In my opinion, the healthiest thing to do is become angry and develop a keen

sense of what kind of people to stay away from. What earthly good is

forgiveness? Doesn't it just expose you (or me, or anyone) to more of the same?

It may be valuable to learn " where the abuser is coming from, " as they say, but

only, as far as I am concerned, so that when you meet someone else from that

place, you can avoid them.

It's truly unfortunate, perhaps tragic is not too strong a word, that many

abusers were probably abused themselves and consequently want to make others

suffer as they have. I will not pretend to understand how abusers think. But I

attended a lecture about it recently and the lecturer said that there are three

kinds of abusers. Here's a quote from an interview:

" Sober Times: You have a pretty low regard for the possibility of rehabilitating

perpetrators.

" Vachss: I don't have any regard for the possibility, because I don't

consider it to be a valid one. You

have to distinguish abusers; there are essentially three types. There are the

inadequate — people who simply

don't know how to parent. A prototypical example is a 12-year-old with a baby

of her own. An alcoholic is a

perfectly good example. They may be the best-meaning parent in the world, but

people who smoke in bed

when they're drunk are a danger to every kid. Then they have low frustration

levels, and things like that.

Inadequates, I believe, are absolutely amenable to rehabilitation, and very

successfully so. Then there are

crazies — and I mean card-carrying, legitimate crazies — who are parents, like

schizophrenics and such.

People like that benefit to the extent psychiatry's got a response to their

particular disorder. So we're real good

with obsessive-compulsives and real lousy with schizophrenics when it comes to

protecting kids from them.

The third category is where me and the social workers part company. And that's

people who are evil — people

who hurt children for their own pleasure or their own profit. People who have

sex with children. And to talk

about rehabilitation in the same breath with such people is ludicrous. There is

absolutely no evidence that any

of them have ever been rehabilitated. The current cutting-edge thought is that

you can't rehabilitate them but

you can give them some sort of internal controls. "

Check out his website: http://www.vachss.com/main.html

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Thanks to all for your responses. =20

>

>*Part* of their program seems better than XA but then there's the

> " disease " thingy that somehow really disagrees with me. The positive

>reinforcement and being with other women was the appealing part,

>especially after a counsellor (male, sorry guys!) that I'd had while

>in a hospital told me that I had to forgive my stepfather for all of

>the abuse (close to 8 years worth!) before I could go on with my life.

>I couldn't, and had feelings of failure on top of everything else. =20

>

>I'm so disgusted with what only 60 or so meetings did to my psyche

>that I'm leery about everything lately. I'm not drinking (and somehow

>really don't feel like I'm an alcoholic..... it was a very bad

>situation that has now ended). That " First Step " did me in big time.

>As a woman with an abusive past, the issue of admitting (embracing??)

> " powerlessness " brings up a lot of demons. I don't like to think of

>myself as being powerless over anything (except perhaps animate

>objects that really *can* hurt me). =20

>

>Somehow this list led me to start reading Alice and now I'm

>wondering where she's been all of my long life! I only wish that I

>could locate someone (a therp) in my area who thought/felt along her

>lines.

>

>Again, thanks!

>

>banshee

>

>

>

>> Apparently they're better for women than XA, but there is the disease =

>model

>> issue. According to what I've read, they don't focus on alcohol =

>avoidance,

>> but are pro-active in moving on and ahead. I don't know how effective =

>it

>> would be for an off the street drunk woman to call herself a " confident=

> and

>> capable woman " right away, so in this respect the group serves women =

>who

>> cleaned up their past to an extent.

>>=20

>> I like the positive reinforcement of WFS more than the negative =

>reinforcement

>> of XA, however I don't like anything that's phony. The confident & =

>capable

>> should be an option for days when one is in fact feeling confident & =

>capable.

>>=20

>> -Apple

>>=20

>> =

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> One day scientists will discover a natural

>> solution for hair loss. That day is here ....

>> Hair Genesis http://offers./click/224/0

>>=20

>>

[Guest guest]

what's the old saying? Fool me once; shame on you. Fool me twice;

shame on me. Forgive, just don't forget.

---AppleDTP@... wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 2/17/99 12:56:00 AM, kayleighs@...

writes:

>

> <<In my opinion, the healthiest thing to do is become angry and

develop a keen

> sense of what kind of people to stay away from. What earthly good is

> forgiveness? Doesn't it just expose you (or me, or anyone) to more

of the

> same?>>

>

> Right on Kayleighs! I think that the type of perpetrators that

V.

> speaks of may well be the ones who strongly defend XA since they can

" confess "

> their wrongdoings and be absolved of them. Then they can accumulate

time and

> earn the right to control people. -Apple

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Recipes, relationships. Horoscopes, health.

> Fashion, fitness. If it's about women, it's at HomeArts.com.

> http://offers./click/212/0

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh, folks

On Sat, 20 Feb 1999 04:59:45 -0000 Kayleigh S

wrote:

> I didn't think that he said that " some can develop internal controls. "

> If he did, so be it.

He actually said " You can give them internal controls " . It was still on the

post you sent to me, and still is now - in ohter words, rehabilitation to

non-offending IS possible.

> If Sober Times is an AA newsletter, well then, it is.

I was joking when I observed this (tho it is true). It is worth wondering

why are they carrying this piece which doesnt have anything to do with

alocohol or AA and ought to be something they have " no opinion on " ? Because

it is reductionist and authoritarian, which suits steppism. I'm sure Vachss

may be quoted elsewhere - probably in mainstream coinservative papers too

probably - I was just noting how cosy he is for steppers.

> I'm

>not a mental health professional, so I don't really know the difference

>between sociopaths and psychopaths or people with antisocial personality

>disorder is, or what the current criteria are for diagnosis. Maybe one of

>those terms is out of fashion now.

....And probably Vachss doesnt know either (or perhaps care), which was my

point.

> > I'm not really sure what you mean

by the pseudopsychological gloss (did I get that right?)

Well, he's being portrayed as an expert, but in reality his views are just

beer-bottle bottom " bad blood " and " inherent evil " non-explanations.

ly, I prefer demonic possession theories - at least these are

considered to be *acquired* and can be exorcised!

> Did you look at

the website?

No - Unless it includes a retraction of what he said here, nothing in it

change the fact that he admits that ppl can be taught not to offend that he

nevertheless considers cant be rehabilitated.

Pete

> --- > Kayleigh

> > Zz > zZ > |\ z _,,,---,,_

> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' >

'---''(_/--' `-'\_) > > >

> > >Hi Kayleigh > > > >He

actually said " some can develop internal controls " - that's why I used >

>that phrase. Sover Times I believe is an AA newsletter, (need I say

more?). > > > >A distinction exists between Antisocial Personality Disorder

and > >Psychopathy, so I am not sure which you refer to with " Sociopathy " .

I have > >attended a lecture on Psychopaths by a researcher recently, and

on the > >basis of that (and things I have read) altho this is an extremely

difficult > >population some progress can be made; indeed. the lecturer

commented that > >with minimal therapeutic intervention, other than

imprisonment, one of his > >psychopathic subjects appeared to have ceased

violent behavior and > >improved on test measures, even tho he would

probably never be released and > >hence was not particularly motivated to

reform for parole purposes. > > > >I realize I was rather harsh on Mr

Vachs, but if ppl want to essentially > >cry " Hang 'Em High " , I prefer it

without a pseudopsycohological gloss. > > > >Pete > > > >On Thu, 18 Feb

1999 06:08:40 -0000 Kayleigh S wrote: > > > >>

I don't think he acknowledged that they can develop internal controls. I

think he said that that was the current cutting edge theory. I don't think

he believes it's possible. We're talking about sociopaths here. > >> > >>

I know nothing about " Sober Times. " Why don't you check out the website,

and get back to us? I read this guy's books long before I knew about his

philosophy, and I thought they were pretty good. I have a lot of respect

for him. > >> --- > >> Kayleigh > >>

> >> Zz > >> zZ > >> |\ z _,,,---,,_ > >>

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ > >> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' > >>

'---''(_/--' `-'\_) > >> > >>

> >> > >> > >> >Hi All >

>> > > >> >Dont believe what you read in " Sober Times " Kayleigh... > >> >

> >> >This speaker appears to have an impossibily high standard of what=20

> >> > " rehabilitation " means. He acknowledges that ppl can develop internal

contr= > >> >ols=20 > >> >- that sounds like sufficient rehabilitation to

be considered a success.=20 > >> >Complete elimination of a trait,

especially *thoughts* is almost impossible= > >> >=20 > >> >whatever the

problem; and perhaps thats a very good thing. We dont need a= > >> >=20 >

>> > " Thought Police " - we have enough trouble with the Behavioral ones. >

>> > > >> >I dont know who this " lecturer " is, but I'm not surprised he's

called " Vach= > >> >ss " =20 > >> >- he seems like a dumb ox, and expels the

same substance... [for non-French= > >> >=20 > >> >literate, vache =3D

cow]. > >> > > >> >Pete > >> >

> >> >On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:54:48 -0000 Kayleigh S

w= > >> >rote: > >> > > >> >> I am sort of late

in replying to this, as I have been away from e-mail fo= > >> >r about a

week, but at the risk of repeating what someone else may have sai= > >> >d,

I have to say that the idea that you should forgive an abuser is just pl= >

>> >ain loathesome. I think people who say this don't even have a clue

what fo= > >> >rgiveness is, or when it should be exercised. > >> >>=20 >

>> >> In my opinion, the healthiest thing to do is become angry and develop

a k= > >> >een sense of what kind of people to stay away from. What

earthly good is f= > >> >orgiveness? Doesn't it just expose you (or me, or

anyone) to more of the s= > >> >ame? > >> >>=20 > >> >> It may be valuable

to learn " where the abuser is coming from, " as they sa= > >> >y, but only,

as far as I am concerned, so that when you meet someone else f= > >> >rom

that place, you can avoid them. > >> >>=20 > >> >> It's truly unfortunate,

perhaps tragic is not too strong a word, that man= > >> >y abusers were

probably abused themselves and consequently want to make oth= > >> >ers

suffer as they have. I will not pretend to understand how abusers thin= >

>> >k. But I attended a lecture about it recently and the lecturer said

that t= > >> >here are three kinds of abusers. Here's a quote from an

interview: > >> >>=20 > >> >> " Sober Times: You have a pretty low regard

for the possibility of rehabil= > >> >itating perpetrators. > >> >>=20 > >>

>> " Vachss: I don't have any regard for the possibility, because I

do= > >> >n't consider it to be a valid one. You > >> >> have to

distinguish abusers; there are essentially three types. There ar= > >> >e

the inadequate =97 people who simply > >> >> don't know how to parent. A

prototypical example is a 12-year-old with a= > >> > baby of her own. An

alcoholic is a > >> >> perfectly good example. They may be the

best-meaning parent in the world= > >> >, but people who smoke in bed > >>

>> when they're drunk are a danger to every kid. Then they have low

frustra= > >> >tion levels, and things like that. > >> >> Inadequates, I

believe, are absolutely amenable to rehabilitation, and v= > >> >ery

successfully so. Then there are > >> >> crazies =97 and I mean

card-carrying, legitimate crazies =97 who are par= > >> >ents, like

schizophrenics and such. > >> >> People like that benefit to the extent

psychiatry's got a response to th= > >> >eir particular disorder. So we're

real good > >> >> with obsessive-compulsives and real lousy with

schizophrenics when it comes to protecting kids from them. > >> >> The

third category is where me and the social workers part company. And = > >>

>that's people who are evil =97 people > >> >> who hurt children for their

own pleasure or their own profit. People who= > >> > have sex with

children. And to talk > >> >> about rehabilitation in the same breath with

such people is ludicrous. T= > >> >here is absolutely no evidence that any

> >> >> of them have ever been rehabilitated. The current cutting-edge

thought i= > >> >s that you can't rehabilitate them but > >> >> you can

give them some sort of internal controls. " > >> >>=20 > >> >> Check out his

website: http://www.vachss.com/main.html > >> >> --- > >> >> Kayleigh > >>

>>=20 > >> >> Zz > >> >> zZ

> >> >> |\ z _,,,---,,_ > >> >> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ > >>

>> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' > >> >> '---''(_/--' `-'\_) > >>

>>=20 > >> >>=20 > >> >>=20 > >> >> On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:12:48 banshee

wrote: > >> >> >Thanks to all for your responses. =3D20 > >> >> >

> >> >> >*Part* of their program seems better than XA but then there's the

> >> >> > " disease " thingy that somehow really disagrees with me. The

positive > >> >> >reinforcement and being with other women was the

appealing part, > >> >> >especially after a counsellor (male, sorry guys!)

that I'd had while > >> >> >in a hospital told me that I had to forgive my

stepfather for all of > >> >> >the abuse (close to 8 years worth!) before I

could go on with my life. > >> >> >I couldn't, and had feelings of failure

on top of everything else. =3D20 > >> >> > > >> >> >I'm so disgusted with

what only 60 or so meetings did to my psyche > >> >> >that I'm leery about

everything lately. I'm not drinking (and somehow > >> >> >really don't

feel like I'm an alcoholic..... it was a very bad > >> >> >situation that

has now ended). That " First Step " did me in big time. > >> >> >As a woman

with an abusive past, the issue of admitting (embracing??) > >> >>

> " powerlessness " brings up a lot of demons. I don't like to think of > >>

>> >myself as being powerless over anything (except perhaps animate > >> >>

>objects that really *can* hurt me). =3D20 > >> >> > > >> >> >Somehow this

list led me to start reading Alice and now I'm > >> >> >wondering

where she's been all of my long life! I only wish that I > >> >> >could

locate someone (a therp) in my area who thought/felt along her > >> >>

>lines. > >> >> > > >> >> >Again, thanks!

> >> >> > > >> >> >banshee > >> >> > > >> >> >On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:08:42

EST, you wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> Apparently they're better for women

than XA, but there is the disease = > >> >=3D > >> >> >model > >> >> >>

issue. According to what I've read, they don't focus on alcohol =3D > >>

>> >avoidance, > >> >> >> but are pro-active in moving on and ahead. I

don't know how effective= > >> > =3D > >> >> >it > >> >> >> would be for an

off the street drunk woman to call herself a " confiden= > >> >t=3D > >> >>

> and > >> >> >> capable woman " right away, so in this respect the group

serves women = > >> >=3D > >> >> >who > >> >> >> cleaned up their past to

an extent. > >> >> >>=3D20 > >> >> >> I like the positive reinforcement of

WFS more than the negative =3D > >> >> >reinforcement > >> >> >> of XA,

however I don't like anything that's phony. The confident & = > >> >=3D >

>> >> >capable > >> >> >> should be an option for days when one is in fact

feeling confident & =3D > >> >> >capable. > >> >> >>=3D20 > >> >> >> -Apple

> >> >> >>=3D20 > >> >> >> =3D > >> >>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

>> >> >> One day scientists will discover a natural > >> >> >> solution for

hair loss. That day is here .... > >> >> >> Hair Genesis

http://offers./click/224/0 > >> >> >>=3D20 > >> >> >> eGroup

home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/12-step-free > >> >> >> Free Web-based

e-mail groups by eGroups.com > >> >> >>=3D20 > >> >> >>=3D20 > >> >>

>>=3D20 > >> >> > > >> >> >

> >> >>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

> > >> >> >Fresh flowers are the perfect way to say " I love you " . > >> >>

>Shipped direct from the grower, Proflowers.com has=20 > >> >>

>arrangements from $29.95 plus S & H. =20 > >> >> >Click here:

http://offers./click/216/0 > >> >> > > >> >> >