Guest guest Posted May 3, 1999 Report Share Posted May 3, 1999 Please explain what type of company you work for that would make you sign a paper re: your attitudes towards groups such as AA. That's very scary. Is your work associated with any of these groups? Thanks. I'm just very curious - I hope this is not going to happen elsewhere. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 1999 Report Share Posted May 4, 1999 Re: Sign a paper? >Hi, >I work for the Provincial government alcohol and drug information and >referral line. I hear the other line workers routinely refer people to AA. >Their bias is not at issue, mine is. Does that mean that if they refer people to AA and nothing else, but you refer people to AA and RR, then you are biased against AA? That would be a really interesting concept of bias. (I am presuming that you tell callers how to get in touch with AA and also how to find out about RR.) >Our mandate is to provide referrals to >services which may fulfill the caller's needs. I have been referring people >to RR because it is the ONLY non-12 step group in town. What about individual counselling and professionally conducted therapy groups? Is there no such thing as either in your town too? [snip] >The paper >is to say that I will no longer show bias toward RR and that AA is not >religious. I hope that your pledge doesn't require that you promise to keep the 12 Steps a secret. You really don't need to explain that AA is religious. In fact, maybe you should tell them that it isn't religious, and then mention the parts about prayer and meditation, admitting the exact nature of our wrongs to God, ourselves, and another human being, and so on. Feel free to tell your callers, by way of illustration, about how my sponsor once urged me to attend a weekend retreat, telling me that the retreat would be spiritual rather than religious, and then adding that the weekend would include 5 Catholic Masses :-) >It is an ethical quandry yet if I quit the voice is silenced and >everyone will give a sigh of relief. The BC Federation of Labour head, >Weir, says this issue has arisen in other workplaces and also feels that >the volitional model, in his opinion, is correct and in line with Maslow's >hierarchy of needs. The rest of the staff should sign a paper saying they >won't be biased too. Some at work are closet AAers. Of this I have been >told in confidence. I am tired of the freeze out at work from this crew. I >am not a demonstrative person and never have been a brash or forward >person. Still I believe that it is the right of the public to know that >something else exists. In may role as an information specialist I am >uniquely placed to influence change. There are allies at work but they are >afraid for their jobs. >The point is I want to educate the boss. Therefore I wrote that letter and >am asking for your input. We can change things either by being quiet and >collecting their bias on paper or tape or by taking on the conglomerate. >Afterall the referral system in government is self referential. All but one >residential recovery treatment center in BC is 12 step. Billions of bucks >or my job. Hmmm, maybe I should grovel. >Carol Nah. A little prudence and CYA documentation might be appropriate, though. -- Wally ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 1999 Report Share Posted May 6, 1999 Well, I was really off-target when I assumed your job and your RR commitment were totally separable. I can't really help, I can only rant. AA not religious? Every time the Lord's Prayer was recited my hackles rose. I wanted to scream and run from the room. For a long time I told myself that it wasn't a big deal, it was just something I had to Put Up With to be in this Helpful Program. It didn't work. Even not saying it didn't work. It was totally offensive. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >Hi, >I work for the Provincial government alcohol and drug information and >referral line. I hear the other line workers routinely refer people to AA. >Their bias is not at issue, mine is. Our mandate is to provide referrals to >services which may fulfill the caller's needs. I have been referring people >to RR because it is the ONLY non-12 step group in town. People are also >referred by their Dr., alcohol and drug services, the hospital, >corrections, mental health. I have wanted to have someone else provide the >facilitation but none has wanted to do it. I feel committed to providing >the service because it is necessary to have more than " one way " to recover. >I tired of hearing the crying on the line of those who had drank or used >again and lost their chip, wrung out with remorse and illogical thinking. >The other staff have a bias too, AA, NA, CA, OA, EA, SA and on and on. So I >am a tiny voice and from the callers response a very welcome one. The paper >is to say that I will no longer show bias toward RR and that AA is not >religious. It is an ethical quandry yet if I quit the voice is silenced and >everyone will give a sigh of relief. The BC Federation of Labour head, >Weir, says this issue has arisen in other workplaces and also feels that >the volitional model, in his opinion, is correct and in line with Maslow's >hierarchy of needs. The rest of the staff should sign a paper saying they >won't be biased too. Some at work are closet AAers. Of this I have been >told in confidence. I am tired of the freeze out at work from this crew. I >am not a demonstrative person and never have been a brash or forward >person. Still I believe that it is the right of the public to know that >something else exists. In may role as an information specialist I am >uniquely placed to influence change. There are allies at work but they are >afraid for their jobs. >The point is I want to educate the boss. Therefore I wrote that letter and >am asking for your input. We can change things either by being quiet and >collecting their bias on paper or tape or by taking on the conglomerate. >Afterall the referral system in government is self referential. All but one >residential recovery treatment center in BC is 12 step. Billions of bucks >or my job. Hmmm, maybe I should grovel. >Carol > 01:56 AM 5/3/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Please explain what type of company you work for that would make you >>sign a paper re: your attitudes towards groups such as AA. That's very >>scary. Is your work associated with any of these groups? >> >>Thanks. I'm just very curious - I hope this is not going to happen >>elsewhere. >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Does your free web site address contain more letters than the alphabet? >>Register a domain name with DomainDirect. A domain with NO hosting fees. >>Visit http://clickhere./click/49 for full details. >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 1999 Report Share Posted May 7, 1999 Hi Carol, My name is I have been clean for 4 years. I attended AA for the fist 2 religiously (when I was brain dead) I don't plan on going back. I also attened NA for about a month, what a joke. I am new to the list and have just been lurking for while checking it out. I have to respond to your post. First I have a question. What is RR? I don't think I have heard of this. I would like to say that AA is a world view which is pagan and put's one in a state of glamour. In AA, the perspective is one of plurality- pluralism is like democracy whose root word is " demos " which means " the common people " as does the word " pagen " mean " peasent " -also " the common person " . In AA, individuals are assumed to have a different view, perhapes even a different God, the individual self is humbled for the group perpective, group beliefs are taken on faith, the message is one of hope and charity and the combined perpective creates a group conscience which over-rides the indiviual's awareness of reality. This is also how a wiccan coven operates. In this view, emotions are minipulated through group shame and fear of group exclusion. The idividual is enchouraged not to think logically for himself. Being in state of glamour gives one an out from mystification on a personal level by allowing one to choose one's emotions over intellect-thus " ending " the conflict which mystifies and/of addicts. It doesn't resolve the problem of addiction on a group level. The group is now put into conflict with the intellect of individuals who are not members of the organization.....the conflict between mind and emotion is *maintained* ..........except the GROUP comes to represent what is emotional and the individual " WHO STILL SUFFERS " becomes the perceived source by which the group might become mystified. The difference between glamour (the AA perpective) and mystification (addiction) is that mystification is a state of conflict and glamour is a state which lacks resolution.......though which is emotionaly satisfying but at the cost of the individual's logic. Spiritualism is a world view of good and evil within which the survial of the individual is an all or nothing proposition. The winners(they got it) see a future of happiness and the loseres (they don't get it) see a future of horror. (If you don't do it OUR way you will get drunk and die) Spirituality does not numb the awareness but creates illusions....the imagination becomes over-active and fantasized realites become REAL. My " common sense " while attending AA was not spiritualism but only emotionalism to the degree that it followed AA beliefs not mine. I left AA and now I use my own logic to stay sober. I am an idividual and think for myself, my belief system toady is my own not AA's. There are many way's to stay sober all you have to do is think about it. I am black balled (might as well say) from AA for having my own beliefs and logic. I am an " Individual " I do not represent any one but myself. And gee what do you know, I am still sober and happy. Sincerely > > >Hi, > >I work for the Provincial government alcohol and drug information and > >referral line. I hear the other line workers routinely refer people to AA. > >Their bias is not at issue, mine is. Our mandate is to provide referrals to > >services which may fulfill the caller's needs. I have been referring people > >to RR because it is the ONLY non-12 step group in town. People are also > >referred by their Dr., alcohol and drug services, the hospital, > >corrections, mental health. I have wanted to have someone else provide the > >facilitation but none has wanted to do it. I feel committed to providing > >the service because it is necessary to have more than " one way " to recover. > >I tired of hearing the crying on the line of those who had drank or used > >again and lost their chip, wrung out with remorse and illogical thinking. > >The other staff have a bias too, AA, NA, CA, OA, EA, SA and on and on. So I > >am a tiny voice and from the callers response a very welcome one. The paper > >is to say that I will no longer show bias toward RR and that AA is not > >religious. It is an ethical quandry yet if I quit the voice is silenced and > >everyone will give a sigh of relief. The BC Federation of Labour head, > >Weir, says this issue has arisen in other workplaces and also feels that > >the volitional model, in his opinion, is correct and in line with Maslow's > >hierarchy of needs. The rest of the staff should sign a paper saying they > >won't be biased too. Some at work are closet AAers. Of this I have been > >told in confidence. I am tired of the freeze out at work from this crew. I > >am not a demonstrative person and never have been a brash or forward > >person. Still I believe that it is the right of the public to know that > >something else exists. In may role as an information specialist I am > >uniquely placed to influence change. There are allies at work but they are > >afraid for their jobs. > >The point is I want to educate the boss. Therefore I wrote that letter and > >am asking for your input. We can change things either by being quiet and > >collecting their bias on paper or tape or by taking on the conglomerate. > >Afterall the referral system in government is self referential. All but one > >residential recovery treatment center in BC is 12 step. Billions of bucks > >or my job. Hmmm, maybe I should grovel. > >Carol ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 1999 Report Share Posted May 7, 1999 Pyrette24@... writes: > I would like to say that AA is a world view which is pagan AA's worldview is anything BUT pagan! Pagans have much more respect for themselves! No pagan religion I am aware of teaches salvation by grace, or " turning your life over " to a big-daddy god who is willing to micro-manage your life. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 1999 Report Share Posted May 7, 1999 Pyrette24@... writes: > In AA, individuals are assumed to have a different view, perhapes even a > different God, the individual self is humbled for the group perpective, > group > beliefs are taken on faith, the message is one of hope and charity and the > combined perpective creates a group conscience which over-rides the > indiviual's awareness of reality. This is also how a wiccan coven operates. I have *never* known one to operate in this fashion. In general, I'd say that most pagans of whatever stripe are more independent in their thinking than the average person, and wouldn't swallow that sort of nonsense on any level. How many Wiccan covens have you belonged to? Or are you just relying on someone else's say so? I'd suggest learning what you're talking about before you spout off, instead of creating ineffectual straw men to knock down. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 1999 Report Share Posted May 7, 1999 Hi: What writes below is one of the most intelligent postings I have seen on this list. , thank you for posting this. The only part I do not agree with is 's discussion of spirituality. Yes, spirituality does encompass good and evil but it is more. One does not have to beleive in God to tap into their " Spirtual Part " . To me God is irrevelent to the miricles I see around me.... Thigs from a simple floewr to my childrens births are truly miricles. IMO, as long as I see the mircles, without a need for defineing where they came from ( God Concept here), I gain humility and serenity.. Jay > Hi Carol, > > My name is I have been clean for 4 years. I attended AA for the fist > 2 religiously (when I was brain dead) I don't plan on going back. I also > attened NA for about a month, what a joke. > > I am new to the list and have just been lurking for while checking it out. > I have to respond to your post. > > First I have a question. What is RR? I don't think I have heard of this. > > I would like to say that AA is a world view which is pagan and put's one > in a state of glamour. In AA, the perspective is one of plurality- > pluralism is like democracy whose root word is " demos " which means " the > common people " as does the word " pagen " mean " peasent " -also " the common > person " . In AA, individuals are assumed to have a different view, perhapes > even a different God, the individual self is humbled for the group > perpective, group beliefs are taken on faith, the message is one of hope > and charity and the combined perpective creates a group conscience which > over-rides the indiviual's awareness of reality. This is also how a wiccan > coven operates. > > In this view, emotions are minipulated through group shame and fear of > group exclusion. The idividual is enchouraged not to think logically for > himself. > > Being in state of glamour gives one an out from mystification on a > personal level by allowing one to choose one's emotions over > intellect-thus " ending " the conflict which mystifies and/of addicts. It > doesn't resolve the problem of addiction on a group level. > > The group is now put into conflict with the intellect of individuals who > are not members of the organization.....the conflict between mind and > emotion is *maintained* ..........except the GROUP comes to represent what > is emotional and the individual " WHO STILL SUFFERS " becomes the perceived > source by which the group might become mystified. > > The difference between glamour (the AA perpective) and mystification > (addiction) is that mystification is a state of conflict and glamour is a > state which lacks resolution.......though which is emotionaly satisfying > but at the cost of the individual's logic. > > Spiritualism is a world view of good and evil within which the survial of > the individual is an all or nothing proposition. The winners(they got it) > see a future of happiness and the loseres (they don't get it) see a future > of horror. (If you don't do it OUR way you will get drunk and die) > Spirituality does not numb the awareness but creates illusions....the > imagination becomes over-active and fantasized realites become REAL. My > " common sense " while attending AA was not spiritualism but only > emotionalism to the degree that it followed AA beliefs not mine. > > I left AA and now I use my own logic to stay sober. I am an idividual and > think for myself, my belief system toady is my own not AA's. There are > many way's to stay sober all you have to do is think about it. I am black > balled (might as well say) from AA for having my own beliefs and logic. I > am an " Individual " I do not represent any one but myself. And gee what do > you know, I am still sober and happy. > > Sincerely > > > > > >Hi, > > >I work for the Provincial government alcohol and drug information and > > >referral line. I hear the other line workers routinely refer people to > > >AA. Their bias is not at issue, mine is. Our mandate is to provide > > >referrals > to > > >services which may fulfill the caller's needs. I have been referring > people > > >to RR because it is the ONLY non-12 step group in town. People are > > >also referred by their Dr., alcohol and drug services, the hospital, > > >corrections, mental health. I have wanted to have someone else provide > > >the facilitation but none has wanted to do it. I feel committed to > > >providing the service because it is necessary to have more than " one > > >way " to > recover. > > >I tired of hearing the crying on the line of those who had drank or > > >used again and lost their chip, wrung out with remorse and illogical > > >thinking. The other staff have a bias too, AA, NA, CA, OA, EA, SA and > > >on and on. So > I > > >am a tiny voice and from the callers response a very welcome one. The > paper > > >is to say that I will no longer show bias toward RR and that AA is not > > >religious. It is an ethical quandry yet if I quit the voice is > > >silenced > and > > >everyone will give a sigh of relief. The BC Federation of Labour head, > > > > > > >Weir, says this issue has arisen in other workplaces and also feels > > >that the volitional model, in his opinion, is correct and in line with > > >Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The rest of the staff should sign a paper > > >saying they won't be biased too. Some at work are closet AAers. Of > > >this I have been told in confidence. I am tired of the freeze out at > > >work from this crew. I am not a demonstrative person and never have > > >been a brash or forward person. Still I believe that it is the right > > >of the public to know that something else exists. In may role as an > > >information specialist I am uniquely placed to influence change. There > > >are allies at work but they are afraid for their jobs. The point is I > > >want to educate the boss. Therefore I wrote that letter and am asking > > >for your input. We can change things either by being quiet and > > >collecting their bias on paper or tape or by taking on the > > >conglomerate. Afterall the referral system in government is self > > >referential. All but > one > > >residential recovery treatment center in BC is 12 step. Billions of > > >bucks or my job. Hmmm, maybe I should grovel. Carol > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > @Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service Automatic, Safe, Reliable Backup > and Restores. FREE for 30 Days. INSTALL Now and have a chance to win a > Palm Pilot V! http://clickhere./click/218 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 1999 Report Share Posted May 7, 1999 Hi Welcome. An intriguing post. over a year ago there was a woman on this list who basically wanted to start an explicitly Pagan AA. Her only real objection to AA was she saw it as patriarchal Christian, but still said " you can shelter in a Church in a storm " . Ironically, church steeples are frequently hit by lightning! I think I'd like XA groups more if they actually were Pagan. One has to be careful arguing from the derivations of words - words change in meaning; like a skeleton is not a newborn baby. You use two words - mystification and glamour - in ways not normally done which I dont completely understand. Fwiw, I've heard that 'glamorous' is a corruption of 'grammarous' - someone was deemed 'grammarous', and hence of high standing and appeal, if their mastery of formal rules of grammar was good. Pete > Hi Carol, > > My name is I have been clean for 4 years. I attended AA for the fist 2 > religiously (when I was brain dead) I don't plan on going back. > I also attened NA for about a month, what a joke. > > I am new to the list and have just been lurking for while checking it out. I > have to respond to your post. > > First I have a question. What is RR? I don't think I have heard of this. > > I would like to say that AA is a world view which is pagan and put's one in a > state of glamour. > In AA, the perspective is one of plurality- > pluralism is like democracy whose root word is " demos " which means " the > common people " as does the word " pagen " mean " peasent " -also " the common > person " . > In AA, individuals are assumed to have a different view, perhapes even a > different God, the individual self is humbled for the group perpective, group > beliefs are taken on faith, the message is one of hope and charity and the > combined perpective creates a group conscience which over-rides the > indiviual's awareness of reality. This is also how a wiccan coven operates. > > In this view, emotions are minipulated through group shame and fear of group > exclusion. The idividual is enchouraged not to think logically for himself. > > Being in state of glamour gives one an out from mystification on a personal > level by allowing one to choose one's emotions over intellect-thus " ending " > the conflict which mystifies and/of addicts. > It doesn't resolve the problem of addiction on a group level. > > The group is now put into conflict with the intellect of individuals who are > not members of the organization.....the conflict between mind and emotion is > *maintained* ..........except the GROUP comes to represent what is emotional > and the individual " WHO STILL SUFFERS " becomes the perceived source by which > the group might become mystified. > > The difference between glamour (the AA perpective) and mystification > (addiction) is that mystification is a state of conflict and glamour is a > state which lacks resolution.......though which is emotionaly satisfying but > at the cost of the individual's logic. > > Spiritualism is a world view of good and evil within which the survial of the > individual is an all or nothing proposition. > The winners(they got it) see a future of happiness and the loseres (they > don't get it) see a future of horror. (If you don't do it OUR way you will > get drunk and die) > Spirituality does not numb the awareness but creates illusions....the > imagination becomes over-active and fantasized realites become REAL. > My " common sense " while attending AA was not spiritualism but only > emotionalism to the degree that it followed AA beliefs not mine. > > I left AA and now I use my own logic to stay sober. I am an idividual and > think for myself, my belief system toady is my own not AA's. > There are many way's to stay sober all you have to do is think about it. > I am black balled (might as well say) from AA for having my own beliefs and > logic. I am an " Individual " I do not represent any one but myself. And gee > what do you know, I am still sober and happy. > > Sincerely > > > > > >Hi, > > >I work for the Provincial government alcohol and drug information and > > >referral line. I hear the other line workers routinely refer people to AA. > > >Their bias is not at issue, mine is. Our mandate is to provide referrals > to > > >services which may fulfill the caller's needs. I have been referring > people > > >to RR because it is the ONLY non-12 step group in town. People are also > > >referred by their Dr., alcohol and drug services, the hospital, > > >corrections, mental health. I have wanted to have someone else provide the > > >facilitation but none has wanted to do it. I feel committed to providing > > >the service because it is necessary to have more than " one way " to > recover. > > >I tired of hearing the crying on the line of those who had drank or used > > >again and lost their chip, wrung out with remorse and illogical thinking. > > >The other staff have a bias too, AA, NA, CA, OA, EA, SA and on and on. So > I > > >am a tiny voice and from the callers response a very welcome one. The > paper > > >is to say that I will no longer show bias toward RR and that AA is not > > >religious. It is an ethical quandry yet if I quit the voice is silenced > and > > >everyone will give a sigh of relief. The BC Federation of Labour head, > > > >Weir, says this issue has arisen in other workplaces and also feels that > > >the volitional model, in his opinion, is correct and in line with Maslow's > > >hierarchy of needs. The rest of the staff should sign a paper saying they > > >won't be biased too. Some at work are closet AAers. Of this I have been > > >told in confidence. I am tired of the freeze out at work from this crew. I > > >am not a demonstrative person and never have been a brash or forward > > >person. Still I believe that it is the right of the public to know that > > >something else exists. In may role as an information specialist I am > > >uniquely placed to influence change. There are allies at work but they are > > >afraid for their jobs. > > >The point is I want to educate the boss. Therefore I wrote that letter and > > >am asking for your input. We can change things either by being quiet and > > >collecting their bias on paper or tape or by taking on the conglomerate. > > >Afterall the referral system in government is self referential. All but > one > > >residential recovery treatment center in BC is 12 step. Billions of bucks > > >or my job. Hmmm, maybe I should grovel. > > >Carol > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > @Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service > Automatic, Safe, Reliable Backup and Restores. FREE for > 30 Days. INSTALL Now and have a chance to win a Palm Pilot V! > http://clickhere./click/218 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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