Trolls on ARF12S; strategy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 98-06-14 17:52:36 EDT, you write:

<< Please note, I wasn't telling you what to do, I was explaining my own

strategy for dealing with it and asking for comments, as I actually

explained. Possibly I may not have expressed myself well, but I think I can

forgive myself for that. And if you think I am more offensive than Reese,

what can I say to that?

>>

Sorry, Joe, if I misunderstood....didn't mean to jump down your throat. I just

get touchy when I think someone is telling me what to do....and I didn't say

that you were more offensive than Reese(shit anyone I can think of would have

to go some for that)....what I said was the having someone tell me what to do

was more offensive. It was the action that I was referring. However, you have

pointed out to me that it was not your intention to come off that way, and I

know that I am not immune to misinterpreting something. That said, I hope that

you will accept my apology for getting short with you.

Take Care,

Bette

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[Guest guest]

At 16:33 14/06/98 -0000, you wrote:

>Hi, everybody:

>The only thing worse than a newsgroup with Glenn S is a newsgroup with

Glenn S and Reese and all the other people they attract, the way carcasses

attract vultures.

>I want to renew my plea, at least to the people on this list, not to

respond to any of these people AND not to post anything about them. Either

one just gives them more energy. I logged in this morning to well over a

hundred messages, and the number grew as I kept reading.

>Apparently some folks think it is funny to provoke these people. I don't

think it's funny -- I think it's a waste of time. Others seem to think we

need a reminder of why we left 12 step programs. I don't need a reminder

of why I left 12 step programs, but I would say further, I don't think

these people are representative of 12 step programs. All of us are

probably aware of the borderline loonies who hang out at 12 step programs,

probably because it gives them some sense of belonging, and who are

tolerated at best. The trolls on arf12s seem to have used up the tolerance

that 12 step groups have given them and are looking for new earth to scorch.

>I am a newcomer to newsgroups, and when I found arf12s a few weeks ago it

gave me new courage and new energy. In a few short days the list has

become virtually useless to me. Some of the stuff the trolls say is just

stupid and time-wasting, but some of it is truly offensive. I just hope

these people don't join this list.

I don't think we have much to worry about somehow!

>Ignoring these people WILL make them go away, I am sure, but if even one

person fails to ignore them, we'll still be caught up in the time-wasting,

ignorant, downward spiral that has characterized the last few days.

>Kayleigh

Okay, I'm guilty, if that's the right word, of saying a couple of things

ABOUT them and actually writing a whole original post about " Who is really

doing the whining " , and after that I felt it may not have been necessary at

all. But what I won't do is respond directly to any posts from the Two

Tossers. In fact I don't read them. This is what I think is a good and

viable strategy for reading and postying on arf12s. If anyone wants to

comment on this, please do. The more brains the better. Dealing with trolls

can be tricky, and the bsest way to deal with them is to ignore them. This

needs to be the main line of defence! My semi-evolved troll strategy is this;

[1] READ only posts that come from people who you know will be writing

something sensible, or people who are new. If you find that something by

the Two Tossers (I guess this is " Demonisation " !) is quoted in a post you

are reading, skip over that bit until you get to the actual author of the

post whose stuff you want to read, or just move on to the next sesible

post. If you find you have accidentally clicked on one of those Posts You

Don't Want To Read, just move on to the next sensible post. Resist the urge

to read unpleasant stuff. They want you to read it, so don't. This is a

very big and pwerful weapon against trolls. Use it!

[2] RESPOND only to posts that are written by sensible people or people who

are friendy visitors. Use your own standards to determine what is friendly,

and change them as and when you need to. 12 step people can be okay- they

are just peole, like us. Some of us have even BEEN 12 step people in the

past. If you can reply to them keeping it light and not getting sucked

downwards into anger and reacting, then it may not be a bad thing. Any 12

steppers who you already know to be intent on making trouble, just ignore

them totally.

[3] Whenever you feel you can do it, post a few messages that are light and

positive and that keep up the momentum of the newsgroup. Reply to friendly

people so that their threads have a positive flow and so that those

positive threads are going somewhere, and are not left hanging. And when

someone responds in a friendly way to you, repeat the favour! What trollers

want to do is to get people angry and reactive so that they drop their

positivity and the newsgroup disintegrates. But that can only happen if

people fall into the trap of responding to those messages. If you don't

read them, you can't respond! It only takes a few positive messages at a

time to make the newsgroup function. They can't take that away. It is easy

much of the time to just skip to friendly messages and respond to them in a

positive way, and simply ignore the rest as if they don't exist. This keeps

the newsgroup alive and fulfilling its function. Remember that there may be

some vulnerable people out there lurking, who just need to know that there

really is recovery-from-12-steps!

[4] This is very useful to me and I think it may be useful to bear in mind;

if you are reading arf12s and you are feeling uptight or angry, and are

feeling inclined to get into arguments with trollers, you have the option

of not reading any more, not posting anything, and coming back later

instead and contributing something positive. Please note I'm not saying

anger is bad, or needs to be suppressed, or anything like that. I'll have

you know I'm _far_ too sophisticated for that! It is useful to keep an eye

on one's mood. I like to participate when I'm feeling relaxed, witty, and

don't feel stressed or angry. I just did this for an hour or two and I

think I posted several fairly positive articles. It felt good. I had no

curiosity whatsoever to see what the trollers were saying, even in reply to

my own posts. I know what sort of stuff they have to say, and it is of no

real interest. If I offered you two books, and I said if you read this one

it will make you feel bad, would you want to read it? Okay, that's juat a

superficial analogy. Nothng deep intended.

[5] Last point.We don't HAVE to percieve the high volume of messages as a

problem. Just contribute positive stuff in posoitive threads, as far as is

possible. That is all any of us need to do. High overall volume forces

people to read more selectively anyway. Its not all bad.

That is it. Any comments?

Joe Berenbaum

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[Guest guest]

HI Joe

Good to see something by you again. howya doin;?

Much sense in what you post. Very wise words - I've been

trying to practise this stuff on addict-l. alas, resisting

the urge to read trolls is like trying to resist addictive

cravings!

P.

----------------------

Pumpkin Eater

" Facts are stubborn things "

-- Judge Zobel, from Alain Rene Lesage

[no, I didnt know who he was either]

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS LIST:

http://rdz.stjohns.edu/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

_____________________

" At the Master's table,

They gather for the Feast;

They stab It with their steely knives

But they just cant kill The Beast. "

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[Guest guest]

At 15:27 14/06/98 EDT, you wrote:

>In a message dated 98-06-14 15:04:59 EDT, you write:

>

><< That is it. Any comments?

>

>

> Joe Berenbaum

> >>

>

>Yeah Joe...I have one comment. I know that you mean well...but somehow I find

>having someone tell me what I should and shouldn't be doing just as offensive

>or more so than Reese's BS. I did not do well with *group think* in the

>meetings, and I find you trying to instill it here. They will stop when they

>wear themselves out, and get tired of it...and not before. I am not about to

>make a hobby out of replying to all their messages, but if I am inclined

to, I

>will.

Hi Bette. I'm not sure I totally understand what you are saying here. I

wasn't telling you what to do. I prefaced my explanation of my OWN strategy

with these words-

>This is what I think is a good and

>viable strategy for reading and postying on arf12s. If anyone wants to

>comment on this, please do.

and;

>My semi-evolved troll strategy is this;

I did not say " everyone has to do this " . If you read that into what I said,

oaky. But I didn't put it there. Also I'm a little taken aback by this bit;

>.but somehow I find

>having someone tell me what I should and shouldn't be doing just as

>offensive or more so than Reese's BS.

Please note, I wasn't telling you what to do, I was explaining my own

strategy for dealing with it and asking for comments, as I actually

explained. Possibly I may not have expressed myself well, but I think I can

forgive myself for that. And if you think I am more offensive than Reese,

what can I say to that?

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[Guest guest]

-At 21:38 14/06/98 +0100, you wrote:

>HI Joe

>

>Good to see something by you again. howya doin;?

>

>Much sense in what you post. Very wise words - I've been

>trying to practise this stuff on addict-l. alas, resisting

>the urge to read trolls is like trying to resist addictive

>cravings!

>

>P.

>----------------------

>Pumpkin Eater

Hi Pete! I'm okay. My daughter (age 21, art student) left home today. Her

mother and I split up many years ago and she had been living with me for

several years- we have both felt the need to have a bit of space from one

another and instead of feeling all lost and abandoned and so on, like I

half expected to do, I feel great. Very strange. I now have my own home

again, and can do what I like with it. This suddenly became very important.

Pete, you will feel I am letting the side down maybe, but I have to tell

you it is no longer very messy here. You may share with me privately if you

wish...

I know, resisting the urge to compete with fools is hard sometimes. But

abstinence is possible! Most of the time.

Later,

Joe Berenbaum

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[Guest guest]

At 18:38 14/06/98 EDT, you wrote:

>Sorry, Joe, if I misunderstood....didn't mean to jump down your throat. I

just

>get touchy when I think someone is telling me what to do....and I didn't say

>that you were more offensive than Reese(shit anyone I can think of would have

>to go some for that)....what I said was the having someone tell me what to do

>was more offensive. It was the action that I was referring. However, you have

>pointed out to me that it was not your intention to come off that way, and I

>know that I am not immune to misinterpreting something. That said, I hope

that

>you will accept my apology for getting short with you.

>Take Care,

>Bette

Bette!

Thanks for your reply. Now I remember I also sent my response to the

12-step-free list as well since I thought that was where it had gone until

I looked and saw your address, not the list, was on the top of the email

I'd just sent. Mail programs seem to do that sometimes. I hope this doesn't

complicate things!

Actually a number of interesting things happened to me tonight, and this

was one of them. It is all up in the air at the moment. My daughter has

just left home and I am experiencing a strange and wonderful sense of

freedom and of having my own space at last- something that has been sadly

lacking for a while. It feels really good. other things have also been

happening tonight- a woman friend I knew in NA and AA and who doesn't

return my calls very often, and who I now find out has been drinking and

having blackouts on and off for some months, has suddenly started calling

me tonight, leaving several messages, sounding drunk. This, incedentally,

was while the brother of her deceased first husband (her second husband is

also dead!) was sitting on my sofa. I met him through entirley seoarate

friends, yet there is a definite co-incidence happening about this.

Other important women in my life have also called me- my ex-wife, and

another very close friend also. What the hell is happening? You know those

globes that have purple lightning or something that looks like it flashing

arounf=d inside them- I feel like I've been in one of those all evening.

Well, all day actually.

Anyway, you have inadvertently given me something very useful to look at.

While I was in the period between reading your email to the list, and

reading this most recent email from you, I have been in a strange situation

of feeling very emotionally raw, like in therapy they might say I had

re-activated the " original wound " . I don't usually go for that type of

model so much nowadays, but I do recognise that something fitting that

description sometimes happens! There I was, giving all my power to feel

good or bad, to you. And all the while remembering dimly, situations in

childhood where I had somehow overstepped the mark in some way, usually in

an area where I wasn't too aware of the sensitivities of others, or wasn't

too aware of the boundaries, something ike that, but not actually

overstepping the mark in any kind of serious way at all, and getting

criticised for it, and just feeling totally out of control and going back

into my shell in total retreat. So this is something intersting for me to

work with. I'm reading Barbara Ann Brennan's rather amazing book " Light

Emerging " , all about healing (since I'm chronically ill with a potentially

life-threatening illness I'm allowed to go all spiritual if I want!) and

she talks about this in some detail in her book.

So there you have it. I reckon I did express myself badly in my " strategy "

email and ideally I would have gone over it and put it all in the first

person, or something like that, but I try not to be too anxious about how I

am doing in these areas because it can be unhealthy self-obsession for me

and very inhibiting- what I'm trying to get away from really is my

pathological over-concern for what others think of me, so a little

well-chosen carelessness in that regard is really important I think. So all

in all, an interesting evening!

Again, thanks very much for your reply.

Take care,

Joe Berenbaum

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