Re: Post I made to addict-l on Dod

[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh, everyone.

You have a very interesting take here on the 12 step bamboozle.

Good thing you didn't " share " or really get into it. You could have

ended up with even worse memories.

It is very confusing, and, of course you are angry. Normally, when

we get conned out of our money, its because we foolishly did not

check references, or we got involved with cons against our better

judgement.

In your case, however, you went to treatment, which is highly

recommended by perfectly respectable professionals. Thats what

makes it so confusing. When good people are blindly talking about

how great treatment is, and how good AA is, and you seem to be

the only one noticing its hollow and, your being asked to believe

things that aren;'t true and have to pay for that information, its

more horrid, more of a type of ravishment, and more scary than

just being ripped off by crooks and left knocked down in an alley.

In that case, at least you can go to the cops, get some empathy,

have friends call with understanding and offers of help, and maybe

get to hear later that the perps were sentenced.

Treatment abuse is a much deeper, more spiritual, screwing.

In this case, you might be able get your money back. It wouldn't

be everything, of course, but it would be a nice start.

I've heard of people who do get their money back. Have you

thought of demanding it back? The folks at RR, I think, know

people who have done this.

Sincerely,

>I don't believe I have a " boundary " problem. I am an extremely private

and introverted person, and I found AA's " boundarylessness " almost

physically repellent. I was never able to build any relationships with

program people because they all seemed like robots, you say something

and they give you a slogan back. I didn't " share " and this was called

" isolating " and " isolating " is dangerous.

>

>The thing that bothers me the most is that I was labelled as

" alcoholic, " and that this label carried with it a whole bunch of

characteristics that I don't believe I have, plus the idea that I

couldn't do things or feel things that " normal " people do. As I think

I've said elsewhere before, however, it wasn't the program itself, it

was the treatment centers and the gloss they put on the program that

bothered me the most. It's hard to say how I would have felt if I

hadn't been to treatment. But I think I would almost certainly think

that there were lots of contradictory things about the program. And

indeed, there were lots of people in the program who were obviously

dysfunctional in some important ways, and there were lots of hidden

agendas (and a majority of them had to do with getting laid).

>

>I think the thing that most offends me is the appalling fraud that

mental health professionals and AOD counselors have committed on the

American public, and the innumerable people who have been damaged by it,

folks who probably were not addicted who were identified as addicts,

addicts who've been given bad advice and bad therapy, and the family

members who have been conned into believing that the 12 steps are the

only way out for them as well.

>

>A lot of people seem to be interested in whether AA is a religious

movement or not and I see lots of debates about it. This particular

debate doesn't interest me a bit. There's no question that it's

religious. I was brought up to be unreligious. I didn't even hear of

Jesus Christ until I was in the second grade. My parents weren't

antireligious, they just didn't care, it didn't play a role in their

lives. And when I was in treatment, and they told me to learn to pray,

I was like, " Are you nuts? " I was there for therapy, not to learn to

pray. There was nothing in my background that they could build on

there. It was just irrelevant. And I believed deep down that it was

just a huge rip-off. Yet everyone I knew endorsed AA, some of them

knowing what it was like, others not. So I made an effort, believing

that socially and professionally I would lose otherwise.

>

>I truly believe now that by making that effort I not only lost some

integrity, but I also confused my thinking. Generally I think the

simplest solution is usually the best -- and AA made things sooooo

complicated. It also made the world so drab.

>

>So that's where I'm coming from. It's possible that if I had never

gone to treatment I could have gone to AA and given it its proper place

in my life and never become quite so bitter about the whole thing. But

I don't like being bitter, and I want to get over it, and I'm working at

it. And it's very freeing to realize that there are lots of people out

there who also believe that not only is AA not helpful, it's damaging as

well.

>

>Kayleigh

>

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[Guest guest]

Hello, et al.,

>

> You've made me very curious about the addict-l list. That one

> fellow you and Kayleigh discussed seems like he might be fun

> to take on.

I don't think he'd be fun to take on, although the axes I have to grind are

undoubtedly different from yours. The thing is, he constantly tries to one-up

everyone intellectually by dropping foreign phrases and references to things

like Plato's Timaeus. He avoids coming to the point with a great deal of

finesse, and I believe anyone who tried to take him on would get too exhausted

stripping away the facade to engage in any real debate. Why don't you go to the

site and read his stuff. He's very cutesy. Not worth debating, imo, but I do

feel sorry for his patients.

>

> Kayleigh, is there anything specific you'd like to discuss about

> recovering from t he 12 step religion? I found I was entrenched in

> certain ways of relating to others that had to be worked out in

> therapy. Alot of these were 'boundary " issues. If your whole

> social life revolves around the groups, normal boundaries are often

> publically and privately crashed through. It takes awhile to clean

> this up and rebuild. Also, conversation in AA tends to either be

> very self-centered, or gossipy. It can be quite scary to re-learn

> proper converation and appropriate ways to relate depending on depth of

> the relationship.

>

I don't believe I have a " boundary " problem. I am an extremely private and

introverted person, and I found AA's " boundarylessness " almost physically

repellent. I was never able to build any relationships with program people

because they all seemed like robots, you say something and they give you a

slogan back. I didn't " share " and this was called " isolating " and " isolating "

is dangerous.

The thing that bothers me the most is that I was labelled as " alcoholic, " and

that this label carried with it a whole bunch of characteristics that I don't

believe I have, plus the idea that I couldn't do things or feel things that

" normal " people do. As I think I've said elsewhere before, however, it wasn't

the program itself, it was the treatment centers and the gloss they put on the

program that bothered me the most. It's hard to say how I would have felt if I

hadn't been to treatment. But I think I would almost certainly think that there

were lots of contradictory things about the program. And indeed, there were

lots of people in the program who were obviously dysfunctional in some important

ways, and there were lots of hidden agendas (and a majority of them had to do

with getting laid).

I think the thing that most offends me is the appalling fraud that mental health

professionals and AOD counselors have committed on the American public, and the

innumerable people who have been damaged by it, folks who probably were not

addicted who were identified as addicts, addicts who've been given bad advice

and bad therapy, and the family members who have been conned into believing that

the 12 steps are the only way out for them as well.

A lot of people seem to be interested in whether AA is a religious movement or

not and I see lots of debates about it. This particular debate doesn't interest

me a bit. There's no question that it's religious. I was brought up to be

unreligious. I didn't even hear of Jesus Christ until I was in the second

grade. My parents weren't antireligious, they just didn't care, it didn't play

a role in their lives. And when I was in treatment, and they told me to learn

to pray, I was like, " Are you nuts? " I was there for therapy, not to learn to

pray. There was nothing in my background that they could build on there. It

was just irrelevant. And I believed deep down that it was just a huge rip-off.

Yet everyone I knew endorsed AA, some of them knowing what it was like, others

not. So I made an effort, believing that socially and professionally I would

lose otherwise.

I truly believe now that by making that effort I not only lost some integrity,

but I also confused my thinking. Generally I think the simplest solution is

usually the best -- and AA made things sooooo complicated. It also made the

world so drab.

So that's where I'm coming from. It's possible that if I had never gone to

treatment I could have gone to AA and given it its proper place in my life and

never become quite so bitter about the whole thing. But I don't like being

bitter, and I want to get over it, and I'm working at it. And it's very freeing

to realize that there are lots of people out there who also believe that not

only is AA not helpful, it's damaging as well.

Kayleigh

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[Guest guest]

>

>Hello, et al.,

>>

>> You have a very interesting take here on the 12 step bamboozle.

>> Good thing you didn't " share " or really get into it. You could have

>> ended up with even worse memories.

>>

>There is one passive-aggressive thing I used to do, and that is spout

back slogans in the wrong context. For example, if someone who had been

to treatment relapsed and everyone recommended another round of

treatment, I would say " Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting

different results. " This used to mess with people's minds pretty good,

it usually left them speechless. They couldn't say I was wrong, could

they? But they couldn't say I was right either. I can't say I'm

particularly proud of having done it, I guess it's something you fall

back on when you can't really be honest, like little kids do.

That sounds funny.

Sometimes, even when I was a staunch believer, the resentments and

pressure would pile so high I used the same out my brothers and sisters

used as children: make uproarous jokes about and fun of

whatever we were resentful of. Just as my brother would do an

imitation of our drunken father, sitting exactly the same way, baby-bird

head, pushing his glasses up his nose, keeping us laughing

until we were nearly peeing ourselves, I would sit and entertain

fellow groupers(a little grouper " family " who all had the same sponsor)

with cartoons making fun of the sixth step, and of sponsors

who had sixth-step x-ray glasses, that would help them tell what

your character defects were by flashing colors depending on the

defect: purple for pride, yellow for fear,and, of course, green for envy

and jealousy. For sexual defects, the glasses flashed pink for

girls and blue for boys. Another fellow grouper in our crowd once

wadded up a coat, put it under his shirt, jumped on a stool behind

the counter that our sponsor sat in to give bookstudies, and imitated

him outrageously (he wasn't there, of course.) The wadded up coat

was supposed to be Jack's liver, which was not in good shape, being

greatly enlarged and giving him an enormous pot. After awhile, we

were throwing the coat around, playing keep-away-from-Jack's-liver.

Anyway, I think those kinds of harmless outlets are healthy, though

others might think them immature.

Sincerely

><big snip>

>> In this case, you might be able get your money back. It wouldn't

>> be everything, of course, but it would be a nice start.

>>

>> I've heard of people who do get their money back. Have you

>> thought of demanding it back? The folks at RR, I think, know

>> people who have done this.

>>

>This was totally covered by insurance, it didn't cost me a dime. So if

anyone should get their money back, it would be the insurance company.

I don't believe many, if any, insurance companies even cover inpatient

treatment any more, which is good, because it was in inpatient that the

abuses occurred. I'm sort of surprised that no one has enlisted the

assistance of insurance companies to fight the AA fraud, because they

were the first to accept that 12 step model treatment doesn't work. Now

I'm told that Bill Moyers' son is lobbying Congress to get a law passed

to get it covered again. I'm not usually on the side of insurance

companies, but I hope they win this one.

>

>Incidentally, I was at the same treatment center as Sen. McGovern's

daughter who died of exposure while drunk. You should read his book

about it, it's heartbreaking. She went to treatment over, and over, and

over, and got worse, and worse, and worse....It seems pretty clear that

what really tipped her over the edge was the breakup of her relationship

with a guy with whom she had two children, and I'd bet my entire stock

portfolio that no one ever helped her out with that when she started

drinking again. They probably just told her to get off her pity pot and

do a 5th step. Assholes.

>

>Kayleigh

>

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[Guest guest]

Hello, et al.,

>

> You have a very interesting take here on the 12 step bamboozle.

> Good thing you didn't " share " or really get into it. You could have

> ended up with even worse memories.

>

There is one passive-aggressive thing I used to do, and that is spout back

slogans in the wrong context. For example, if someone who had been to treatment

relapsed and everyone recommended another round of treatment, I would say

" Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. " This used

to mess with people's minds pretty good, it usually left them speechless. They

couldn't say I was wrong, could they? But they couldn't say I was right either.

I can't say I'm particularly proud of having done it, I guess it's something you

fall back on when you can't really be honest, like little kids do.

<big snip>

> In this case, you might be able get your money back. It wouldn't

> be everything, of course, but it would be a nice start.

>

> I've heard of people who do get their money back. Have you

> thought of demanding it back? The folks at RR, I think, know

> people who have done this.

>

This was totally covered by insurance, it didn't cost me a dime. So if anyone

should get their money back, it would be the insurance company. I don't believe

many, if any, insurance companies even cover inpatient treatment any more, which

is good, because it was in inpatient that the abuses occurred. I'm sort of

surprised that no one has enlisted the assistance of insurance companies to

fight the AA fraud, because they were the first to accept that 12 step model

treatment doesn't work. Now I'm told that Bill Moyers' son is lobbying Congress

to get a law passed to get it covered again. I'm not usually on the side of

insurance companies, but I hope they win this one.

Incidentally, I was at the same treatment center as Sen. McGovern's daughter who

died of exposure while drunk. You should read his book about it, it's

heartbreaking. She went to treatment over, and over, and over, and got worse,

and worse, and worse....It seems pretty clear that what really tipped her over

the edge was the breakup of her relationship with a guy with whom she had two

children, and I'd bet my entire stock portfolio that no one ever helped her out

with that when she started drinking again. They probably just told her to get

off her pity pot and do a 5th step. Assholes.

Kayleigh

-----

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