RE: When Reinforcers Fail...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/5/2002 12:55:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,

bunnytiner@... writes:

> has purple arms that spin and light up. AND the coup de grace is when Dr.

> Carr turns off the light in the room so all we can see is Putter's face lit

> up by the purple spinning toy.

That's great. It sounds like your boy is alot smarter than they may be

giving him credit for... but we all know that.

G

[Guest guest]

> >>

> Finally Putter begins refusing his reinforcers of Lay's Potato

chips, Caffeine-free Coke, and M & Ms. " No, " he says each time he is

offered them. Predictably his correct responses plummet, until

finally he is no longer answering at all, but merely and

mischievously letting his finger rest in between his two choices. No

one really doubts he knows the answers.>>

This is going on here, too, but the therapist attributes it not to

boredom or autism, but to being plain old ornery. had two

weeks of pretty much no therapy, because the kids were sick one week,

then I was sick the next, and it was far too wretched an illness to

allow anyone into the house if even one person was contagious. Since

then, he seems to be of the opinion that all of this therapy stuff is

optional...we get to start from scratch--none of the reinforcers are

working, we're getting like 5% compliance/success during his

sessions...sheesh.

We, too, are taking a different tack, going back to more of the

floortime/play activities and trying to gradually induce him to stay

at his " jobs " at the table. Two steps forward, one step back...

But at least we know they are thinking for themselves, right?

Raena

Ain't it fun when they start thinking for themselves?

[Guest guest]

>> But at least we know they are thinking for themselves, right?

>

> Raena

>

> Ain't it fun when they start thinking for themselves?>>

Okay, so I wrote the same thing twice...sorry; didn't realize I had

put the second one into the note. Clever, aren't I...a real computer

wiz...

[Guest guest]

-

Salli,

I agree with you that Putter is bored. I think that as wonderful as

Dr. carr seems to be, a lot of behaviorists will reduce stuff

to " mere autism " I think it just simplifies things for them. I would

push the issue of Putters lack of interest due to knowing the stuff.

It seems you could do this in a more natural setting, like, ask him

to get these things at home using those clues.

I also have the same experience with motivation to put clothes on. If

I tell eric to go downstairs and put his shoes on becasue we are

going to buy ice cream, theres no problem. If i make that request for

any other reason, I have to remind him to do it. He has a hard time

with two part commnads that entail going a distance.He has selective

short term memory problems. So, he will listen if the motiviation is

there. I think taking a coat on and off in a hot room isnt very

motivating. Going outside to play is a natural reinforcer.

It does sound like a successful session though, as the toy seems to

be a could motivator.

Thea

-- In parenting_autism@y..., " bunnytiner " <bunnytiner@c...> wrote:

> Yesterday at the Autism Center, they were working with Putter on

RFFC (Role Function Form Class). I have explained before that they

show Putter two objects and Putter is to touch the one that has, for

example, " a black handle, " or that " you eat with. "

>

> Dr. Carr showed me the charts for Putter's RFFC. When Putter gets

reinforcers, he does very well. When he does not get reinforcers, he

is right about fifty percent of the time which, since there are only

two choices, is what he should get if he paid absolutely no attention

at all.

>

> I get a strong sense that Putter is bored by the RFFC. I think it

is too easy for him and he is doing it with about five percent of his

mind, maybe less. He plays little games to make it more amusing. He

shuts his eyes and blindly chooses one item. He counts the trials,

one time alternating between English and Spanish numbers. He lists

all the dog-like carnivores. He teases by slowly moving his finger

to the wrong one and then, just as his finger almost touches, he

switches to the right one.

>

> Dr. Carr says that he seems " spacey " today, suddenly reducing

Putter's boredom and playfulness to mere autism. But I don't think

so, much as I like Dr. Carr.

>

> Finally Putter begins refusing his reinforcers of Lay's Potato

chips, Caffeine-free Coke, and M & Ms. " No, " he says each time he is

offered them. Predictably his correct responses plummet, until

finally he is no longer answering at all, but merely and

mischievously letting his finger rest in between his two choices. No

one really doubts he knows the answers.

>

> Dr. Carr sighs and suggests it is time to do something different.

Putter has been working on zipping jackets and toothbrushing. He did

well with zipping but last time he totally balked and refused to zip

at all. He was forced too, but the Autism Center does recognize the

unproductiveness of force. They will try something different.

Putter is a practical person and possibly he objects to zipping up a

jacket indoors because it is silly. So they take him to a little

courtyard in the building and Putter zips his jacket like a lamb when

he sees he will be going outside. Stupid NT's! Why should Putter

endlessly put on and take off a jacket in an overheated therapy

room. But for going outside? Ah, now THAT makes sense.

>

> When he returns it is toothbrushing time. RFFC has been dropped

for the day for lack of interest. I wonder how they will reinforce

him for toothbrushing something that Putter loathes so much that they

aren't even using Putter's teeth yet, but instead are using a plastic

set of teeth. Last session Putter refused to brush even those teeth.

>

> But Dr. Carr has something in store for Putter. The first time

Putter brushes the plastic teeth, he is handed a wonderfully autistic

toy. It has purple arms that spin and light up. AND the coup de

grace is when Dr. Carr turns off the light in the room so all we can

see is Putter's face lit up by the purple spinning toy. Putter might

as well be on LSD by the look of his face.

>

> Now Putter brushes beautifully, timing the brushing to end just

when the wonderful toy was handed to him the last time. Gradually

the brushing is lengthened and the reinforcer is spaced out, but

Putter will do anything for this item. One time Dr. Carr doesn't

turn off the light and Putter turns and looks pointedly at

him. " What do you want, Putter? " he asks. " DOWN! " says Putter

firmly, meaning the light switch should be down.

>

> The session ends a huge success. Putter goes home pleased and

happy.

>

> Salli

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I agree with you that Putter is bored.

I knew you would! I always think that you understand my little Putter quite

well, perhaps because he and are rather akin.

I think that as wonderful as

> Dr. carr seems to be, a lot of behaviorists will reduce stuff

> to " mere autism " I think it just simplifies things for them.

This is SO true. I found Putter rather charming actually because he was so

clearly trying to liven things up a bit. I am not sure why they don't

change the things they are trying to teach him more often; I guess I'll have

to talk about that. They say that they are trying to teach him to listen

but currently he is discovering that it is best to stay in PutterLaLaLand

because what other people are saying is downright dull!

I would

> push the issue of Putters lack of interest due to knowing the stuff.

> It seems you could do this in a more natural setting, like, ask him

> to get these things at home using those clues.

Actually this is their plan. What I like about the Autism Center is that

their goal is always to generalize their sessions to the home. No way I

will bore my Putt though when I try this stuff at home.

>

If i make that request for

> any other reason, I have to remind him to do it. He has a hard time

> with two part commnads that entail going a distance.He has selective

> short term memory problems. So, he will listen if the motiviation is

> there.

And you know? Who can blame him? With autism, they don't especially care

to please us so that leaves pleasing themselves. Putter's philosophy seems

to be the utterly pragmatic " What's in it for me? "

I think taking a coat on and off in a hot room isnt very

> motivating. Going outside to play is a natural reinforcer.

>

Yup.

> It does sound like a successful session though, as the toy seems to

> be a could motivator.

Yeah, but you know how it is. Nothing works forever. One day Putter will

toss that thing lightly aside and go on to mess up Dr. Carr's data.

Salli

[Guest guest]

Salli - we're having the same problem with Madison.

She proves, every once in awhile, that is already know this or that -- but

then STOPS doing it, because all of the stuff we are using as reinforcers

are not effective.

The problem is : I don't know what IS effective.

No clue.

Go, Putter. He has them playing in the palm of his hands, those ridiculous

NT's!

)

When Reinforcers Fail...

> Yesterday at the Autism Center, they were working with Putter on RFFC

(Role Function Form Class). I have explained before that they show Putter

two objects and Putter is to touch the one that has, for example, " a black

handle, " or that " you eat with. "

>

> Dr. Carr showed me the charts for Putter's RFFC. When Putter gets

reinforcers, he does very well. When he does not get reinforcers, he is

right about fifty percent of the time which, since there are only two

choices, is what he should get if he paid absolutely no attention at all.

>

> I get a strong sense that Putter is bored by the RFFC. I think it is too

easy for him and he is doing it with about five percent of his mind, maybe

less. He plays little games to make it more amusing. He shuts his eyes and

blindly chooses one item. He counts the trials, one time alternating

between English and Spanish numbers. He lists all the dog-like carnivores.

He teases by slowly moving his finger to the wrong one and then, just as his

finger almost touches, he switches to the right one.

>

> Dr. Carr says that he seems " spacey " today, suddenly reducing Putter's

boredom and playfulness to mere autism. But I don't think so, much as I

like Dr. Carr.

>

> Finally Putter begins refusing his reinforcers of Lay's Potato chips,

Caffeine-free Coke, and M & Ms. " No, " he says each time he is offered them.

Predictably his correct responses plummet, until finally he is no longer

answering at all, but merely and mischievously letting his finger rest in

between his two choices. No one really doubts he knows the answers.

>

> Dr. Carr sighs and suggests it is time to do something different. Putter

has been working on zipping jackets and toothbrushing. He did well with

zipping but last time he totally balked and refused to zip at all. He was

forced too, but the Autism Center does recognize the unproductiveness of

force. They will try something different. Putter is a practical person and

possibly he objects to zipping up a jacket indoors because it is silly. So

they take him to a little courtyard in the building and Putter zips his

jacket like a lamb when he sees he will be going outside. Stupid NT's! Why

should Putter endlessly put on and take off a jacket in an overheated

therapy room. But for going outside? Ah, now THAT makes sense.

>

> When he returns it is toothbrushing time. RFFC has been dropped for the

day for lack of interest. I wonder how they will reinforce him for

toothbrushing something that Putter loathes so much that they aren't even

using Putter's teeth yet, but instead are using a plastic set of teeth.

Last session Putter refused to brush even those teeth.

>

> But Dr. Carr has something in store for Putter. The first time Putter

brushes the plastic teeth, he is handed a wonderfully autistic toy. It has

purple arms that spin and light up. AND the coup de grace is when Dr. Carr

turns off the light in the room so all we can see is Putter's face lit up by

the purple spinning toy. Putter might as well be on LSD by the look of his

face.

>

> Now Putter brushes beautifully, timing the brushing to end just when the

wonderful toy was handed to him the last time. Gradually the brushing is

lengthened and the reinforcer is spaced out, but Putter will do anything for

this item. One time Dr. Carr doesn't turn off the light and Putter turns

and looks pointedly at him. " What do you want, Putter? " he asks. " DOWN! "

says Putter firmly, meaning the light switch should be down.

>

> The session ends a huge success. Putter goes home pleased and happy.

>

> Salli

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Alec is the exact same way! Drives us all crazy. I always feel that

when he gets bored we should quickly move on to something else. I

really douibt that Alec will ever do anything just because anyone

asks or tells him to. He is too strongwilled for that. Gotta love

these kids

Jacquie H

> Salli - we're having the same problem with Madison.

> She proves, every once in awhile, that is already know this or

that -- but

> then STOPS doing it, because all of the stuff we are using as

reinforcers

> are not effective.

> The problem is : I don't know what IS effective.

>

> No clue.

>

> Go, Putter. He has them playing in the palm of his hands, those

ridiculous

> NT's!

>

> )

> When Reinforcers Fail...

>

>

> > Yesterday at the Autism Center, they were working with Putter on

RFFC

> (Role Function Form Class). I have explained before that they show

Putter

> two objects and Putter is to touch the one that has, for

example, " a black

> handle, " or that " you eat with. "

> >

> > Dr. Carr showed me the charts for Putter's RFFC. When Putter gets

> reinforcers, he does very well. When he does not get reinforcers,

he is

> right about fifty percent of the time which, since there are only

two

> choices, is what he should get if he paid absolutely no attention

at all.

> >

> > I get a strong sense that Putter is bored by the RFFC. I think

it is too

> easy for him and he is doing it with about five percent of his

mind, maybe

> less. He plays little games to make it more amusing. He shuts his

eyes and

> blindly chooses one item. He counts the trials, one time

alternating

> between English and Spanish numbers. He lists all the dog-like

carnivores.

> He teases by slowly moving his finger to the wrong one and then,

just as his

> finger almost touches, he switches to the right one.

> >

> > Dr. Carr says that he seems " spacey " today, suddenly reducing

Putter's

> boredom and playfulness to mere autism. But I don't think so, much

as I

> like Dr. Carr.

> >

> > Finally Putter begins refusing his reinforcers of Lay's Potato

chips,

> Caffeine-free Coke, and M & Ms. " No, " he says each time he is

offered them.

> Predictably his correct responses plummet, until finally he is no

longer

> answering at all, but merely and mischievously letting his finger

rest in

> between his two choices. No one really doubts he knows the answers.

> >

> > Dr. Carr sighs and suggests it is time to do something

different. Putter

> has been working on zipping jackets and toothbrushing. He did well

with

> zipping but last time he totally balked and refused to zip at all.

He was

> forced too, but the Autism Center does recognize the

unproductiveness of

> force. They will try something different. Putter is a practical

person and

> possibly he objects to zipping up a jacket indoors because it is

silly. So

> they take him to a little courtyard in the building and Putter zips

his

> jacket like a lamb when he sees he will be going outside. Stupid

NT's! Why

> should Putter endlessly put on and take off a jacket in an

overheated

> therapy room. But for going outside? Ah, now THAT makes sense.

> >

> > When he returns it is toothbrushing time. RFFC has been dropped

for the

> day for lack of interest. I wonder how they will reinforce him for

> toothbrushing something that Putter loathes so much that they

aren't even

> using Putter's teeth yet, but instead are using a plastic set of

teeth.

> Last session Putter refused to brush even those teeth.

> >

> > But Dr. Carr has something in store for Putter. The first time

Putter

> brushes the plastic teeth, he is handed a wonderfully autistic

toy. It has

> purple arms that spin and light up. AND the coup de grace is when

Dr. Carr

> turns off the light in the room so all we can see is Putter's face

lit up by

> the purple spinning toy. Putter might as well be on LSD by the

look of his

> face.

> >

> > Now Putter brushes beautifully, timing the brushing to end just

when the

> wonderful toy was handed to him the last time. Gradually the

brushing is

> lengthened and the reinforcer is spaced out, but Putter will do

anything for

> this item. One time Dr. Carr doesn't turn off the light and Putter

turns

> and looks pointedly at him. " What do you want, Putter? " he

asks. " DOWN! "

> says Putter firmly, meaning the light switch should be down.

> >

> > The session ends a huge success. Putter goes home pleased and

happy.

> >

> > Salli

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> Alec is the exact same way! Drives us all crazy. I always feel that

> when he gets bored we should quickly move on to something else.

I agree with this, but those behaviorists do not.

I

> really douibt that Alec will ever do anything just because anyone

> asks or tells him to. He is too strongwilled for that. Gotta love

> these kids

Oh, yes, they are fun. Putter brings so much pleasure to my life.

Salli

[Guest guest]

Would you like to put Putter in a state of complete ecstasy? Go to

Disneyland at night.

Seems like EVERYONE has those lights.

(Jacqui has one)

Penny :-D

>>>>

But Dr. Carr has something in store for Putter. The first time Putter

brushes the plastic teeth, he is handed a wonderfully autistic toy. It has

purple arms that spin and light up. AND the coup de grace is when Dr. Carr

turns off the light in the room so all we can see is Putter's face lit up by

the purple spinning toy. Putter might as well be on LSD by the look of his

face.

<<<

[Guest guest]

> Would you like to put Putter in a state of complete ecstasy? Go to

> Disneyland at night.

> Seems like EVERYONE has those lights.

A bit of a hike...

>

> (Jacqui has one)

Now Putter is jealous.

Salli