Re: My experience

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/15/98 5:38:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, dptrs140@...

writes:

> In a cult personal growth is retarded to preserve the group. I've noted most

in AA have awoken sober on the beach and being insecure and scared stupid they

never explore the mainland.

Very well put.

I found being sober after years of using/drinking like being a little kid

again. Or like waking up from a dream. I don't know how to describe it

precisely, but I know exactly what you're talking about. It's that moment when

you realize how much you've been missing.

However, sitting several nights a week in a church basement being mentally

poked and prodded by a bunch of chain-smoking, self-righteous losers was

enough to send me back to La La Land again for a number of years until I

finally decided one day that I was not powerless.

Because no one is.

Henders

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[Guest guest]

DMP,

I find it ironic that drugs, which " messed me up " for many years, are what

also have now finally helped me. Of course there are all kinds of different

drugs, legal or illegal. I liked them all. When I went to AA, I never did

accept that I was addicted to alcohol. I just liked to use alcohol to

" intensify the effect " of whatever drug I was using. (There was no NA chapter

where I lived.)

But unfortunately I bought their " powerless " mindset for several years. I

think I quit going to AA because I just couldn't stand the people there. Okay

so I was a snob. They just weren't my type; they were not people I would ever

have chosen to associate with. Definitely not cool.

But then after a number of years of over-using/drinking/eating, (okay just

flat indulging myself), I realized one day I no longer felt " superior " to

anyone. I looked in the mirror and thought: " I could be on the Jerry Springer

Show. I am disgusting. " That's when, like a dog getting out of the pool, I

decided to shake off the " powerlessness " b.s. and get my shit together. AT

this point, I was more unhappy about my weight gain than anything else.

I was lucky to find a good doctor. He prescribed the " fen-phen " diet pill, and

I lost 40 pounds in a year. Of course I changed to a low-fat diet and did

plenty of power walking, but I don't think I would have been successful

without the pills. It finally dawned on me that, although I have no power over

what my kid does, or what my spouse does, or, in fact over anything anybody

else in my life does, I DO HAVE POWER over what I chose to put in MY mouth or

otherwise ingest into MY system. (Ken Ragge and others like him helped me

" see the light. " )

Then, after the weight loss of course I felt a lot better about myself, but I

was still medicating my inner self due to a lifelong depression that seemed

to have ingrained itself into my personality. So this same doctor, bless his

heart, allowed me to try Prozac and now I feel better emotionally than I have

in many, many years. (I am not taking the diet pills anymore and am keeping

the weight off.)

I don't abuse drugs or alcohol anymore. Don't want to; don't need to. It's

been quite a revelation to me that if I am good to drugs, they are good to me.

What da ya know.

Henders

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[Guest guest]

Hello,

This is my first letter to this list. I hope it makes it. I was told about

this list by a friend who said it may help. I recently quit AA after six

years, and everyone tells me that I will start drinking again.

I may be in the right place, because I related to some of the things Henders

said today. He said that he couldn’t stand the people there. I don’t hate

them, but a large percentage of them do appear to be losers with little or no

ambition. He also said he is on Prozac, and so am I. It has very noticeably

leveled my moods, which I am thankful for.

Mike

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 14:13 16/11/98 EST, you wrote:

>Hello,

>This is my first letter to this list.

Hi, and welcome.

> I hope it makes it. I was told about

>this list by a friend who said it may help. I recently quit AA after six

>years, and everyone tells me that I will start drinking again.

This is an important point to make- those people know relatively little

about how to recover from alcohol dependence. This is because they have

been isolated from all the of the insights and new developments that have

arisen from outside AA, notably the field of psychology, over the last

almost 60 years. Someone whose knowledge is confined to a religiously-based

and cultlike support group, and who has fearfully avoided new information

from outside, considers him/herself qualified to predict your success at

recovery even though you could now be using more modern methods. Hmmmm... ;-)

It is ironic, but the people in AA who say you will drink are the people

you should pay the least attention to! I'm an ex-AA/NA member who has now

had more time without meetings than with them and am now 12 years

clean/sober, (although I hung onto some of the beliefs and rituals for a

while). I can tell you, (ahem- in my experience...) that it works a hell of

a lot better when you accept that there is no disease, you are responsible

for your own behaviour and choices, and religious beliefs are fine but only

if you are comfortable with them, and are not needed for recovery. You can

recover better with common sense and current scientific knowledge- think

about it- its going to be a lot easier than with a program of religion,

superstition and anti-intellectual bias that has remained unchanged and

unimproved since the 1930's.

>I may be in the right place, because I related to some of the things

>Henders>said today. He said that he couldn’t stand the people there. I

>don’t hate>them, but a large percentage of them do appear to be losers

with >little or no>ambition. He also said he is on Prozac, and so am I.

It has >very noticeably>leveled my moods, which I am thankful for.

>Mike

I don't hate them either, but I find I am quite intolerant of that

particular combination of ignorance, arrogance and piety that besets many

members. Actually I have a number of very good and close friends who are

still in NA/AA, and we get on very well- but none of them seems to think

that the 12 step approach is the be-all and end-all of recovery. They are

intelligent people I suppose. Most of them I have shown how to use

cognitive techniques or REBT to solve problems after they found the 12

steps didn't make any difference to many real life problems.

What I would suggest for you is that you get some reading material that

supports your current view so that you have something to counteract the

negative infuence of the supertitious predictions you were so generously

given. Incedentally- it is a charactersitic of a cult that you are given

dreadful warnings about what will happen if you leave! Try to see it in

that light- that's all it is- the utterances of scared people who daren't

step poutside their prison cell, even though the door is open.

It could be harder to find a new footing if all you have to read is 12 step

program literature. There are many good books available now, but two that I

have found really good are " Addiction, Change and Choice " by Vince Fox, and

" When AA Doesn't Work For You " by Albert Ellis and Emmet Velten, although

there are many more than these. If you are interested there are lists of

books available on the web sites of Rational Recovery, SMART Recovery, and

Albert Ellis' web site. These all represent modern approaches to recovery

from addictive behaviour.

Here are some modern recovery resources you might like to take a look at-

if only to get more of a sense of balance about your AA friends' predictions;

SMART Recovery (SMART)

24000 Mercantile Road, Suite 11

Beachwood, Ohio 44122

FAX 831-3776

SRMail1@...

www.smartrecovery.org

To subscribe to SMARTREC, post listserv@...

with the following message:

subscribe SMARTREC yourfirstname yourlastname

Moderation Management (MM)

P.O. Box 1752

Woodinville, WA 98072

www.moderation.org

To subscribe to MM, post listserv@... with the

following message:

subscribe MM yourfirstname yourlastname

Women for Sobriety (WFS)

P.O. Box 618

Quakertown, PA 18951-0618

(voice and fax)

WFSobriety@...

www.mediapulse.com/wfs/

Men for Sobriety (MFS)

(same as Women for Sobriety)

Rational Recovery Systems (RR)

Box 800

Lotus, CA 95651

(voice and fax)

800-303-CURE

rr@...

www.rational.org/recovery

Secular Organizations for Sobriety/Save Our Selves (SOS)

5521 Grosvenor Blvd.

Los Angeles, CA 90066

FAX 821-2610

(unofficial website) www.unhooked.com

Joe Berenbaum

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hello,

>

> This is my first letter to this list. I hope it makes it. I was told abo=

> ut

> this list by a friend who said it may help. I recently quit AA after six

> years, and everyone tells me that I will start drinking again.

That's horse pucky. More people are sober without

the 12 step religion than with it. That's something they don't tell you in the

rooms. You're better off far away from folks who try to

sabatoge your sobriety by telling you that.

If AA helped you get a start, that's good. But you

don't owe AA anything, and you don't have to like

any of them.

I like some of the AAs, and I still have a few

friends who recommend AA, although hardly any

of my AA friends go to meetings anymore, which

further proves the point.

> I may be in the right place, because I related to some of the things Hende=

> rs

> said today. He said that he couldn=92t stand the people there. I don=92t=

> hate

> them, but a large percentage of them do appear to be losers with little or=

> no

> ambition. He also said he is on Prozac, and so am I. It has very noticea=

> bly

> leveled my moods, which I am thankful for.

Yes, alot of folks who used to drink do better with Prozac. I was reading a

study recently which

showed that depressed ex-drinkers are less likely

to relapse if they take an antidepressant.

-----

See the original message at /list/12-step-free/?start=672

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

DMP,

> But unfortunately I bought their " powerless " mindset for several years. I

> think I quit going to AA because I just couldn't stand the people there. Okay

> so I was a snob. They just weren't my type; they were not people I would ever

> have chosen to associate with. Definitely not cool.

snip for space

> I don't abuse drugs or alcohol anymore. Don't want to; don't need to. It's

> been quite a revelation to me that if I am good to drugs, they are good to me.

> What da ya know.

Good for you, Henders. Thanks for the story.

That's very inspiring.

While I was in AA I was scared to death to drink

a non-alcoholic beer, because they are said to

have small amounts of alcohol in them. One

of my sponsors used to persuade us to never use

mouthwash, perfume, or anything with alcohol in it

because, according the the Dr.s Opinion in the

Big Book, we were " allergic " to alcohol and even

the tiniest amount would cause mood swings, and

perhaps even lead back to drinking. And to use

wine in cooking? Never. I heard a speaker once

say that her sponsor stripped her of her sobriety

status after finding out she drank non-alcoholic

beer.

Now I drink it whenever I want. When I first drank one, I waited, scared. I

thought my blood

sugar had lowered a little because of it. But

I think now it was just my imagination, fed, over

the years, repeated doses of 12-step wives tales.

O'Doul's is expecially good.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

At 00:08 17/11/98 -0000, you wrote:

<snip>

>Yes, alot of folks who used to drink do better with Prozac. I was reading

a study recently which

>showed that depressed ex-drinkers are less likely

>to relapse if they take an antidepressant.

>

>

Which is hardly surprising when you think about it! Imagine feeling really

depressed and hearing those one-liners over and over in a meeting, all

those knowing looks and calls of " it works if you work it! " when you tell

the meeting that you have been feeling like shit for a month and want to

feel better. I would probably want to stick pins in my eyes. I expect that

someone will do a study someday that will show that it is harder to

identify whether you are depressed if you are also attending 12 step

meetings. I have heard a great deal of silly advice to people to stop

taking necessary and prescribed medication, things like " If you're feeling

depressed, you can't be working the program... " . It is quackery. I think

there could be an awful lot of undiagnosed clinically depressed people

sitting in meetings wondering why they feel so bad, and getting bad advice.

In reality, you are likely to be depressed if you _are_ working the

program, because it tells you that you have an incurable disease (enough of

the people will tell you this that it can be classed as part of the program

now, and that isn't even counting NA's " disease of addiction " ). The program

tells you that you are " powerless " and that you need a " higher power " (that

you way not believe in) to be sane, that you have to turn your will and

your life over, that you are defective, and so on. A recipe for depression.

In reality, chemical deopendence is a behaviour, not a disease, you have

power over your behaviour and choices, even if you need to learn how to use

it, you are in all probability sane anyway and simply need to stop drinking

and screwing your life up, and you are not defective just because you are

an imperfect human being. There is actually no such thing as a " character

defect " - its just step-babble.

Joe Berenbaum

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/16/99 12:06:09 PM Central Standard Time,

awatt04@... writes:

<< Incidentally, do you prefer cloth or milk? >>

ROFLMAO

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=3324

> The coercion, subtle manipulation I have experienced in AA sickens me. The more sense of self I have the less I am concerned with it. But this has been a slow process for me.

> The postings here have been a great source of support and interest.

> Thank you all.

> Welcome to 12-step-free monkey girl. Check out my new deprogramming site, and contribute something if you like. It's not easy sitting in a 12-step based program, and it's not easy having a limited amount of friends either. Most of my friends are people who defected from 12 step groups. Im more frightened of 12 steppers than ever. The manipulation is very subtle indeed, and the meetings can look quite friendly and healthy, however after a while, people lose touch with their own history, and start to reframe their true history with the AA model - which is not based in truth!!

I will go to a meeting once in a while, and when I share, people always thank me with sincerity (not the hard cores mind you!), but I know that my mind is not safe in meetings. Anyway, welcome, welcome welcome!

Apple

http://www.AAdeprogramming.com

[Guest guest]

Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=3324

> The coercion, subtle manipulation I have experienced in AA sickens me. The more sense of self I have the less I am concerned with it. But this has been a slow process for me.

> The postings here have been a great source of support and interest.

> Thank you all.

> Welcome to 12-step-free monkey girl. Check out my new deprogramming site, and contribute something if you like. It's not easy sitting in a 12-step based program, and it's not easy having a limited amount of friends either. Most of my friends are people who defected from 12 step groups. Im more frightened of 12 steppers than ever. The manipulation is very subtle indeed, and the meetings can look quite friendly and healthy, however after a while, people lose touch with their own history, and start to reframe their true history with the AA model - which is not based in truth!!

I will go to a meeting once in a while, and when I share, people always thank me with sincerity (not the hard cores mind you!), but I know that my mind is not safe in meetings. Anyway, welcome, welcome welcome!

Apple

http://www.AAdeprogramming.com

[Guest guest]

Well, at least I didnt ask her if she learnt abt sex from her mother or her

peers (or at all?)...

apologies monkeygirl. just had a thread abt monkey research.

P.

> Bwhahahahehe! BAD Pete! BAD! No internet for you for 2 days!

>

> Pete Watts wrote:

> >

> > Incidentally, do you prefer cloth or milk?

> >

> > Never mind.

> >

> > P.

> >

> >

> >

> > > August 98' I made a committment to abstain from alcohol. I had previous

experience with 12 step aa and did not wish to return.

> > > October 98' I turned myself into police to take care of past legal

problems.

> > > 43 days later I was released on the condition that I attend a residential

allcohol treatment program.

> > > Third day in treatment I expressed my desire to find a non 12 step based

facility. Counselor expressed horror and anger. As I would have been charged

with escape if I left, I shut my mouth and complied.

> > > I did get a lot out of the treatment facility and continue to go to

aftercare once a week. Aftercare is also 12 step based. Being in the minority

is not easy for me.

> > > Through drinking I had become very isolated and have virtually no

relationships other than the one with my husband. Not a very satisfying life.

> > > Today my goals are to get through whatever the court mandates, stay

sober, and develop friendships with folks who are not in 12 step programs.

Living in a cloistered, program oriented world is not for me.

> > > The coercion, subtle manipulation I have experienced in AA sickens me.

The more sense of self I have the less I am concerned with it. But this has

been a slow process for me.

> > > The postings here have been a great source of support and interest.

> > > Thank you all.

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > Internet FileZone: Always FREE!

> > > Instantly store & access your valuable PC files on the net,

> > > from any Web browser. http://offers./click/235/0

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Does anyone on this list know of help for families NOT centered around the AA

theory (e.g. al-anon.) I'm in desperate need of some kind of support, and

know well the dangers in al-anon et al.

Thanks,

Joy

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Check out my new deprogramming siteApple

Thanks for the welcome Apple. I checked out your site the first day it was up and have seen the updates. Good stuff. Admirable work.

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=3329

> Incidentally, do you prefer cloth or milk?

>

Milk.

>

> P.

>

Grant me the Strength

> To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

> Like your rewording Pete.

>

> monkeygirl

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Please, what is the address for the new deprogramming website. Are there

two now?

Thank you ,

Carol

At 07:27 PM 3/17/99 -0000, you wrote:

>Check out my new deprogramming siteApple Thanks for the welcome Apple. I

>checked out your site the first day it was up and have seen the updates.

>Good stuff. Admirable work. >

> eGroups Spotlight: " Africanshereandthere " - African-American artists,

>djembe drummers, dancers. http://offers./click/243/2 eGroup

>home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/12-step-free

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, go to family services or community services and find someone with a

congnitve bent, an rational emotional therapy persuasion. Usually an

eclectic mix of humanism and behavioralism, cultural and sociological view.

You can find them in private practice too. You can call the college of

psychologists, clinical counsellors and association of social workers and

find which is the one you can afford. Interview them. Find out how long

they think you will be coming to them. They should be able to give you a

preliminary diagnosis of the problem and dynamics after the second visit.

Trust your gut. Do you feel comfortable with them and can talk to them.

What methods and schools of thought do they follow? Trust your gut.

People in most places keep their problems quiet and don't want to tell

other people about them. Even church groups are pretty exclusive, the

divorce group, the kids of divorce, the marriage preparation. There are few

groups in which people get together to discuss emotional issues except

cancer and death threatening illness. Yes and caregiving for mentally ill

members of the family, like mental health, (they have a great one, very

thorough, enjoyed it), caregivers associations, crime prevention groups

fill a need for involvement of victims of crime.

We had an RR for families contact in our program for a few months and

people were thankful to for doing it. She has since moved on but

the connection with other families was benefical. Wanna hit the book and do

that? That would focus your desperate feelings but that might be something

for later. For now see the family services, mental health, alcohol and drug

clinic counsellor (there may be 12 steppers stomping that ground), minister

(the Unitarian church does that for a thimble here in Vancouver and their

staff have their masters in counselling degree), the university takes on

many " subjects " for their graduating class in psych and social work.

Read the Codependencey Conspiracy and Feeling Good. The first so you can

be forwarded about what bent your counsellor takes on such isssues.

TakeCare,

Carol f

At 04:12 PM 3/17/99 EST, you wrote:

>Does anyone on this list know of help for families NOT centered around the AA

>theory (e.g. al-anon.) I'm in desperate need of some kind of support, and

>know well the dangers in al-anon et al.

>

>Thanks,

>Joy

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Internet FileZone: Always FREE!

>Instantly store & access your valuable PC files on the net,

>from any Web browser. http://offers./click/235/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 04:12 PM 3/17/99 EST, Joy1950@... wrote:

>Does anyone on this list know of help for families NOT centered around the AA

>theory (e.g. al-anon.) I'm in desperate need of some kind of support, and

>know well the dangers in al-anon et al.

>

>Thanks,

>Joy

SOS (at least the meetings I went to in Atlanta) is generally 'open' in

that

they allow relatives and/or friends of alcoholic/addicts to attend meetings

and get support. There's tons of info at <http://www.unhooked.com>. There are

a few mixed ideas in SOS's membership about what it should be, though - some

people want to borrow more stuff from AA than others (such as myself) think

is appropriate. But try it if you can - it's a whole lot better than Al-Anon.

-----

http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley/seasons_greetings.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Now here's a novelty.

SOS lets loved ones of addicts in, but their listserv refused to have me as an

overeater,

because I couldnt go abstinent from my drug of choice. Why that means I cant

benefit, and

contribute, to an addiction recovery forum escapes me (even assuming their

rendering of eating

disorder issues is accurate).

I think this rather shows the ideological nature of SOS and many other

abstinence-only

perspectives, not merely AA.

SOS may well be the acceptable face of AA: a triple A, Agnostic AA. An SOS

mailing list

includes Jim Shirk -there are droves of AA's active in SOS, and revides or even

unrevised

versions of the 12 steps are discussed in meetings.

We see here regularly how AA's infiltrate here and try to insinuate their

perspectives, and ppl

have received stuff offlist from undisclosing AA's like Rita did recently. At

least here they

are directly challenged; in SOS they can do their stuff as much as they like.

I may still hang around OA but I see it for what it is; the dynamics of what

goes on in many

SOS meetings may be much less obvious.

P.

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:52:46 -0500 Ben Bradley

wrote:

> At 04:12 PM 3/17/99 EST, Joy1950@... wrote:

> >Does anyone on this list know of help for families NOT centered around the AA

> >theory (e.g. al-anon.) I'm in desperate need of some kind of support, and

> >know well the dangers in al-anon et al.

> >

> >Thanks,

> >Joy

>

> SOS (at least the meetings I went to in Atlanta) is generally 'open' in

> that

> they allow relatives and/or friends of alcoholic/addicts to attend meetings

> and get support. There's tons of info at <http://www.unhooked.com>. There are

> a few mixed ideas in SOS's membership about what it should be, though - some

> people want to borrow more stuff from AA than others (such as myself) think

> is appropriate. But try it if you can - it's a whole lot better than Al-Anon.

> -----

> http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley/seasons_greetings.html

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> eGroups Spotlight:

> " Aok-china " - Adopting older kids from China.

> http://offers./click/243/4

>

>

[Guest guest]

> At 06:13 AM 3/18/99 +0000, PW wrote:

> >SOS lets loved ones of addicts in, but their listserv refused to have me

> >as an overeater,

> >because I couldnt go abstinent from my drug of choice.

JB:

>

> I'm a little confused- how would they define abstinence- not eating at all?

> If that is it, and if you offered to not eat at all, would they have you as

> a member on their list?

A fair bit of their prejudice is I believe thru the fact that they just dont

accept overeating

as an addiction. however, in addition, since I would eating moderately

(hopefully) they would

be scared at the prospect this opens up that *moderate drinking* is also

achievable.

Pete

----------------------

Grant me the Strength

To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 06:13 AM 3/18/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Now here's a novelty.

>

>SOS lets loved ones of addicts in, but their listserv refused to have me

as an overeater,

>because I couldnt go abstinent from my drug of choice. Why that means I

cant benefit, and

>contribute, to an addiction recovery forum escapes me (even assuming their

rendering of eating

>disorder issues is accurate).

>

>I think this rather shows the ideological nature of SOS and many other

abstinence-only

>perspectives, not merely AA.

<snip>

I'm a little confused- how would they define abstinence- not eating at all?

If that is it, and if you offered to not eat at all, would they have you as

a member on their list?

Joe Berenbaum

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Re: My experience

Hi, Joy---

Actually, " The Codependency Conspiracy " is out-of-print, but you can find a reasonably-priced used copy at www.bookfinder.com (along with every other book you could ever desire...).

---

Ok, Carol. Thanks. How do I find this book (eg publisher?)

Joy

In a message dated 3/18/99 9:03:20 AM Central Standard Time,

jfrancey@... writes:

<< Read the Codependencey Conspiracy and Feeling Good. The first so you can

be forwarded about what bent your counsellor takes on such isssues.

TakeCare,

Carol f

>>

eGroups Spolight:Loads - A " truckstop " support group for trucker families./list/loads

[Guest guest]

Hi, Feeling Good is everywhere. Coles, Book company, Chapters, Bond.

In pocket book. Tons in the library. The Canadian Mental Health Outpatients

recommends it. It very clearly gives tools to balance emotional thinking

and cognitive distortions about situations.

The Codependency Conspiracy by Dr. Stan Katz and Aimee E. Liu.

You can also trapse off to an article about the Codependecy myth " The

Codependency Idea: When Caring Becomes a Disease at

Http://www.cts.com/crash/habtsmrt/cdnt.htm

written by the well known, Dr. Wetermeyer.

I love the book on Codependency by Katz.

Carol

At 05:57 PM 3/18/99 EST, you wrote:

>Ok, Carol. Thanks. How do I find this book (eg publisher?)

>Joy

>In a message dated 3/18/99 9:03:20 AM Central Standard Time,

>jfrancey@... writes:

>

><< Read the Codependencey Conspiracy and Feeling Good. The first so you can

> be forwarded about what bent your counsellor takes on such isssues.

> TakeCare,

> Carol f

> >>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>eGroups Spotlight:

> " Loads " - A " truckstop " support group for trucker families.

>http://offers./click/243/3

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm glad that you have the concentration to read.

Lu

jovian f. wrote:

>

> Hi, Feeling Good is everywhere. Coles, Book company, Chapters, Bond.

> In pocket book. Tons in the library. The Canadian Mental Health Outpatients

> recommends it. It very clearly gives tools to balance emotional thinking

> and cognitive distortions about situations.

> The Codependency Conspiracy by Dr. Stan Katz and Aimee E. Liu.

> You can also trapse off to an article about the Codependecy myth " The

> Codependency Idea: When Caring Becomes a Disease at

> Http://www.cts.com/crash/habtsmrt/cdnt.htm

> written by the well known, Dr. Wetermeyer.

> I love the book on Codependency by Katz.

> Carol

>

> At 05:57 PM 3/18/99 EST, you wrote:

> >Ok, Carol. Thanks. How do I find this book (eg publisher?)

> >Joy

> >In a message dated 3/18/99 9:03:20 AM Central Standard Time,

> >jfrancey@... writes:

> >

> ><< Read the Codependencey Conspiracy and Feeling Good. The first so you can

> > be forwarded about what bent your counsellor takes on such isssues.

> > TakeCare,

> > Carol f

> > >>

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >eGroups Spotlight:

> > " Loads " - A " truckstop " support group for trucker families.

> >http://offers./click/243/3

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Not as novel as you think. I " applied " to get on their newsgroup and got

snubbed because I was a user's wife, not a user myself. Needless to say, I

was not impressed.

Joy

In a message dated 3/18/99 12:21:52 PM Central Standard Time,

awatt04@... writes:

<< Now here's a novelty.

SOS lets loved ones of addicts in, but their listserv refused to have me as

an overeater,

because I couldnt go abstinent from my drug of choice. Why that means I cant

benefit, and

contribute, to an addiction recovery forum escapes me (even assuming their

rendering of eating

disorder issues is accurate).

I think this rather shows the ideological nature of SOS and many other

abstinence-only

perspectives, not merely AA.

SOS may well be the acceptable face of AA: a triple A, Agnostic AA. An SOS

mailing list

includes Jim Shirk -there are droves of AA's active in SOS, and revides or

even unrevised

versions of the 12 steps are discussed in meetings.

We see here regularly how AA's infiltrate here and try to insinuate their

perspectives, and ppl

have received stuff offlist from undisclosing AA's like Rita did recently. At

least here they

are directly challenged; in SOS they can do their stuff as much as they like.

I may still hang around OA but I see it for what it is; the dynamics of what

goes on in many

SOS meetings may be much less obvious.

P.

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:52:46 -0500 Ben Bradley

wrote:

> At 04:12 PM 3/17/99 EST, Joy1950@... wrote:

> >Does anyone on this list know of help for families NOT centered around the

AA

> >theory (e.g. al-anon.) I'm in desperate need of some kind of support, and

> >know well the dangers in al-anon et al.

> >

> >Thanks,

> >Joy

>

> SOS (at least the meetings I went to in Atlanta) is generally 'open' in

> that

> they allow relatives and/or friends of alcoholic/addicts to attend meetings

> and get support. There's tons of info at <http://www.unhooked.com>. There

are

> a few mixed ideas in SOS's membership about what it should be, though -

some

> people want to borrow more stuff from AA than others (such as myself) think

> is appropriate. But try it if you can - it's a whole lot better than Al-

Anon.

> ----- >>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Carol, I tried to go to the article but it didn't load the url <<darn!>>

Sounds like this goes along with my line of thinking about " co-dependency "

theories. I think it's a bunch of sh*t. Sorry 'bout the language, but that

word comes closest to what I really think it is. I'll look up the books. I

don't put much trust in analysts, because from what I've seen they all buy

into the disease theory of love, life and human emotion. They all suck. They

are all more screwed up than anyone else on this planet. (I know, I'm

ranting!)

Anywhom, I really have to find some sources for direction that aren't planted

in their silly theories. I'm a nurse. I know what disease is. Loving

someone, and committing to them, faults & all, is not a disease. Having an

addiction is not a disease, It still comes down to choices. Next thing we

know road rage will be a disease, LOL.

Joy

In a message dated 3/18/99 7:12:10 PM Central Standard Time,

jfrancey@... writes:

<<

Hi, Feeling Good is everywhere. Coles, Book company, Chapters, Bond.

In pocket book. Tons in the library. The Canadian Mental Health Outpatients

recommends it. It very clearly gives tools to balance emotional thinking

and cognitive distortions about situations.

The Codependency Conspiracy by Dr. Stan Katz and Aimee E. Liu.

You can also trapse off to an article about the Codependecy myth " The

Codependency Idea: When Caring Becomes a Disease at

Http://www.cts.com/crash/habtsmrt/cdnt.htm

written by the well known, Dr. Wetermeyer.

I love the book on Codependency by Katz.

Carol

>>

------------------------------------------------------------------------