Re: Recovered Memory and Inner Child

[Guest guest]

Apple wrote:

>

> ... For Joe and other POM/HR fans, I'm having some of the POM/HR stuff

reviewed by a psychologist friend since it goes contrary to Ken's post, as well

as the " space " I'm in right now. I haven't told the psychologist friend about my

opinion at all, I want it to be a neutral review. Am impressed how much the POM

folks have been communicating with me tho. Still, I'm in a place right now

where I'm really convinced of the feel the feelings stuff. Interesting how

religions and AA both pathologize certain feelings isn't it?

>

>

---------------------------------------------

I'm missing something here... What is POM/HR, and how does it relate to

research on " recovered memory " validity and significance (or lack thereof)?

References?

Thanks,

Rita

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

> I sent the following to addict-l this morning and thought it might be

> appropriate here.

>

> Ken

>

Thank you Ken for an interesting post! For Joe and other POM/HR fans, I'm having

some of the POM/HR stuff reviewed by a psychologist friend since it goes

contrary to Ken's post, as well as the " space " I'm in right now. I haven't told

the psychologist friend about my opinion at all, I want it to be a neutral

review. Am impressed how much the POM folks have been communicating with me tho.

Still, I'm in a place right now where I'm really convinced of the feel the

feelings stuff. Interesting how religions and AA both pathologize certain

feelings isn't it?

Apple

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

---

Apple wrote:

>>

>> ... For Joe and other POM/HR fans, I'm having some of the POM/HR stuff

reviewed by a psychologist friend since it goes contrary to Ken's post, as well

as the " space " I'm in right now. I haven't told the psychologist friend about my

opinion at all, I want it to be a neutral review. Am impressed how much the POM

folks have been communicating with me tho. Still, I'm in a place right now

where I'm really convinced of the feel the feelings stuff. Interesting how

religions and AA both pathologize certain feelings isn't it?

>>

>>

---------------------------------------------

I'm missing something here... What is POM/HR, and how does it relate to

research on " recovered memory " validity and significance (or lack thereof)?

References?

Thanks,

Rita

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

AppleDTP@... wrote:

>

> (anyone feel free to butt in...) POM/HR, their web site is www.pomhr.com is

" psychology of mind, health realization " they offer a unique philosophy which

goes contrary to 12-step thinking. Namely that the answers are inside us, and

that we don't need an external source to give us the answers. I recently

reviewed one of their books " The Serenity Principle " which challenges AA in

certain ways. The aspect of their philosophy with which I don't agree (namely

because I can't seem to master the technique myself), is the realization that

thoughts are simply that... thoughts. By changing our thoughts, we change our

emotions, and thus the way we feel. This goes contrary to traditional psychology

methods which they challenge, where the patient digs up old events and goes

through the emotions in a therapeutic setting. POM/HR disagrees with this. Some

folks here have found the stuff useufl, I'm still investingating it.

>

> Apple

>

Hi Apple,

I can't help but take serious issue with any therapy that centers around

" changing one's thoughts to change one's feelings. " Certainly, if I

have to go to the employee picnic, I can " change my thoughts, " reframe

it in another context and that might help make it more fun, a more

enjoyable experience. In this sort of thing one is subject to see a

great deal of short term benefit. It is the broadening of such

techniques to more important " issues " that concerns me. What about the

death of a child? What about a divorce? What about childhood abuse?

I've known people who have practiced such things for decades and the

most outstanding feature of them is buried anger, sadness and

disappointment. This all comes out too, in one way or another, whether

self-sabotaguing behavior or a lack of vitality. They are all either

relatively clueless to having those feelings buried away or fear that if

they allow themselves to experience them they'll " go crazy. "

I'm entirely with Lowen's strong emotion is stored in the

body. It certainly is possible to stay disconnected but at a very heavy

price.

As far as " traditional " therapy, the " digs up old events and goes

through the emotions in a therapeutic setting, " I see that, too, as

counterproductive. This is always done in the context of learning to

" deal with " your feelings, not learning to value and respect them.

Moreover, it is always done in the context of answering the question,

" What is wrong with you? " Personally, I've found that whatever was

" wrong with me " wasn't something wrong with me at all but a natural and

as adequate as humanly possible response to an " unnatural " situation.

Another problem with this kind of talk therapy is the insistence on

" forgiveness " and getting side-tracked into making excuses for and

" understanding " parental behavior to the detriment of actually

re-experiencing the situation at depth.

Moreover, the therapist " digging " and " rummaging around " is totally

without respect for the client's ability to know what is important and

what is appropriately next. Certainly a therapist can figure that if

there is a radical change between 7 and 8 that " something happened. " A

therapist can also figure that if a client is unable to bond in a

relationship that " something happened " and have some idea what type of

things cause such problems. But a therapist can't know or decide what

is appropriately next for the client to tackle. I saw this first hand

in a little bit of a different setting.

I was studying hypnotherapy a number of years ago. I think " analytical

hypnotherapy " would be a fairly accurate term. People were brought back

to traumatic childhood experiences in just a few minutes. Some of them

had rather revolutionary changes for the better. However, many of them,

suddenly faced with things they weren't prepared for not only didn't do

better, it was so terrifying they became afraid to look back again. It

seems many doors were permanently closed these people.

Alice has a great book, " Thou Shalt Not be Aware: Society's

Betrayal of the Child. " Essentially, she describes how therapists, in

protecting their own defenses, side _against_ the client. There is no

real " investigation " other than enough for condemnation and calls for

forgiveness.

Just my 2 cents.

Ken Ragge

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Jim

Thanks for answering this question for me, as I didnt know the detail you have

given.

I have a heory, which I believe is also held by sexologists, that failure to

switch from maternal to peer involvements at adolescence, can produce sexual

repression and obesity in men. My roomie and I both had oppressive Catholic

parents, and both have weight problems and are timid sexually with women.

Of course, in my case there is sexual, emotional and physical abuse involved

too; there is physical and emotional abuse involved with my roomie too ( tho

probably less severe than mine). However, I still think that " smother

mothering " may well produce peer group and sexual difficulties for sons.

Pete

> Good question. If I recall correctly Harlow raised monkeys in several

> conditions. One group he raised in isolation with only " surrogate "

> mothers. These monkeys did not do well, they were afraid of other

> monkeys, tended to be aggressive, and did not engage in reproductive

> behaviors. A second group Harlow raised with only peers. This peer

> group tended to be hostile towards members outside their troop, tended

> not to engage in learned social behaviors, such as grooming, as much*,

> but did engage in reproductive behaviors. A third group was raised with

> their mothers only, and these monkeys did better than the surrogate

> group but not as good as the peer group. Of note was that these monkeys

> did not learn reproductive behavior. The conclusion drawn from this

> aspect of Harlow's studies was that, in monkeys and probably in humans,

> reproductive behavior are learned from one's peer group ... consistent

> with the behavior of Pete's friend.

> Jim.

>

>

>

> Kayleigh S wrote:

> >

> > Hi, Pete,

> >

> > Are you familiar with Harry Harlow's experiments with rhesus monkeys and

surrogate mothers? If so, how does this tie in with your theory?

> > ---

> > Kayleigh

> >

> > Zz

> > zZ

> > |\ z _,,,---,,_

> > /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> > '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

> >

> >

> > >Hi Ken

> > >

> > >This was a great post. I have just one quibble:

> > >

> > >I actually think humans would NOT need to be told how to have sex if they

> > >werent told to not have it first. I have a friend who actually had sex

for

> > >something like 18 months before they found out that that was where babies

> > >come from. I expect ppl would work it out anyway if theyre sexuality were

> > >not suppressed early on. (Heck, look how popular building sets are - now,

> > >if I put this peg in here, what happens?).

> > >

> > >I am NOT advocating that ppl should find out abt sex in this way, merely

> > >wishing to say that humans are only intellectualised away from their

sexual

> > >selves because they choose to create a society that does this.

> > >

> > >Pete

> > >----------------------

> > >Grant me the Strength

> > >To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

> > >

> > >PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

> > >http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

> > >

> > >

> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >Internet FileZone: Always FREE!

> > >Instantly store & access your valuable PC files on the net,

> > >from any Web browser.

> > >SIGN UP NOW - http://offers./click/235/0

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

> I'm entirely with Lowen's strong emotion is stored in the

> body. It certainly is possible to stay disconnected but at a very heavy

> price.

I doubt " the body " in general. Almost certainly these are encoded in the

central nervous system (this includes the spine as well as the brain).

However, the memory *feels* as if it is in the body in precisely the same way

that novel sensations are also felt as being in the body part concerned and not

as lights going off in one's heaad. This doesnt really matter so much in terms

of experience and therapy, but if you want a scientific theory of such things,

then I think that this point should be recognised.

> Another problem with this kind of talk therapy is the insistence on

> " forgiveness " and getting side-tracked into making excuses for and

> " understanding " parental behavior to the detriment of actually

> re-experiencing the situation at depth.

Not all therapists insist on forgiveness as a goal. Sone specifically say they

do not see it as necessary.

>

> I was studying hypnotherapy a number of years ago. I think " analytical

> hypnotherapy " would be a fairly accurate term. People were brought back

> to traumatic childhood experiences in just a few minutes. Some of them

> had rather revolutionary changes for the better. However, many of them,

> suddenly faced with things they weren't prepared for not only didn't do

> better, it was so terrifying they became afraid to look back again. It

> seems many doors were permanently closed these people.

I had an experience like this in a drama therapy session. I went back to a

scene that I didnt even think of as traumatic particularly and was amazed at

the emotions that emerged. The therapist inevitably interepreted it his way and

tried to direct it the way he thought it should go.

>

> Alice has a great book, " Thou Shalt Not be Aware: Society's

> Betrayal of the Child. " Essentially, she describes how therapists, in

> protecting their own defenses, side _against_ the client. There is no

> real " investigation " other than enough for condemnation and calls for

> forgiveness.

I have experienced this too. After telling one therp abt the abuse my mother

inflicted on me she started talking abt the " good enough " mother! For a start,

if I listened close enough in Psychoanalysis this term is from Winnicott when

desscribing an *excellent* mother - the point is that no mother is perfect but

can be good enough, but he was talking abt mothers *who love their children

well*, not abusive mothers. Secondly, he was talking abt mothers and *babies*

not 5 year olds, as I was when the abuse started. This was a complete abuse of

a psychoanalytic term. but why was she using it anyway? she had a small baby

herself, I think a boy but I'm not sure. Repeatedly I've had women, especially

mothers, flat refuse to believe the abuse my mother inflicted on me. I once

asked an analyst why that was. He replied becasue they cant handle the thought

that they have that power in them to hurt a child, especially their own. If

mothers, they are likely to have their own anxieties abt whether they have or

are continuing to hurt them.

What was she saying with her comment? That my mother's behavior was " good

enough " , and that by implication , it was inappropriate to complain?

I told her that my mother's behavior was NOT good enough. I also knew what the

Cognitive Therapy response ought to have been, which was that my mother wasnt

BAD enough, in the sense that she could not destroy me now unless I let her.

*I* am the one who is good enough, good enough to prevail over my difficulties

and prosper. She nodded and smiled knowingly, but I dont think she got it. I

think she still just couldnt understand why I should feel such hatred for my

own mother, such rage at the abuse; somehow I had to have 'got it wrong'.

----------

Pete Watts

My childhood sent me Lemons:

So I made Limerance

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

> > I can't help but take serious issue with any therapy that centers around

> "changing one's thoughts to change one's feelings." Certainly, if I

> have to go to the employee picnic, I can "change my thoughts," reframe

> it in another context and that might help make it more fun, a more

> enjoyable experience. In this sort of thing one is subject to see a

> great deal of short term benefit. It is the broadening of such

> techniques to more important "issues" that concerns me. What about the

> death of a child? What about a divorce? What about childhood abuse?

> Ken, that's exactly the types of situations that they advocate using it for. One example cited was that of a man sentenced to a concentration camp. When the remaining prisoners were released, they were emaciated depressed, but this man had a "glow" about him, simply because he made the decision early on not to hate because he would sink to the level of his captors. The other cited example (in an e-mail sent me by the POM/HR folks) was that of a woman brutally raped, mutilated left for dead. She made a spiritual turnaround, forgiving her assailants. I get an icky feeling in my gut when I read such examples, but the reason I'm still reviewing this material is that I'm curious if this is some survival mechanism the brain devises in the case of true horror. Mind you, my personal horrors are horrific, but there are horrors worse than mine such as the two cited examples.

I'm giving the POM/HR book to a respected psychologist alkie friend of mine to review. > I'm entirely with Lowen's strong emotion is stored in the

> body. It certainly is possible to stay disconnected but at a very heavy

> price. Yes, but how do you connect, when the buried emotion is attached to an event so horrific?

> > As far as "traditional" therapy, the "digs up old events and goes

> through the emotions in a therapeutic setting," I see that, too, as

> counterproductive. This is always done in the context of learning to

> "deal with" your feelings, not learning to value and respect them. > Moreover, it is always done in the context of answering the question,

> "What is wrong with you?" Personally, I've found that whatever was

> "wrong with me" wasn't something wrong with me at all but a natural and

> as adequate as humanly possible response to an "unnatural" situation.

This is interesting to me. So then what IS therapy if it's not examining old events associating the proper reaction to them. > > Another problem with this kind of talk therapy is the insistence on

> "forgiveness" and getting side-tracked into making excuses for and

> "understanding" parental behavior to the detriment of actually

> re-experiencing the situation at depth. > If I hear the word forgiveness one more time, I will pull my hair out by the roots. I wouldn't be so anti-forgiveness, if it weren't for all the people/books/programs pushing it so heavily. Can't they see that people need to honor their anger first??? Forgiveness, we'll talk later...

> Moreover, the therapist "digging" and "rummaging around" is totally

> without respect for the client's ability to know what is important and

> what is appropriately next. Certainly a therapist can figure that if

> there is a radical change between 7 and 8 that "something happened." A

> therapist can also figure that if a client is unable to bond in a

> relationship that "something happened" and have some idea what type of

> things cause such problems. But a therapist can't know or decide what

> is appropriately next for the client to tackle. I saw this first hand

> in a little bit of a different setting.

> > I was studying hypnotherapy a number of years ago. I think "analytical

> hypnotherapy" would be a fairly accurate term. People were brought back

> to traumatic childhood experiences in just a few minutes. Some of them

> had rather revolutionary changes for the better. However, many of them,

> suddenly faced with things they weren't prepared for not only didn't do

> better, it was so terrifying they became afraid to look back again. It

> seems many doors were permanently closed these people.

> > Alice has a great book, "Thou Shalt Not be Aware: Society's

> Betrayal of the Child." Essentially, she describes how therapists, in

> protecting their own defenses, side _against_ the client. There is no

> real "investigation" other than enough for condemnation and calls for

> forgiveness. Have recently read 3 Alice books. Actually I found Alice just about the time I had finished your book. I've happily rerouted my introspection.

Apple

http://www.AAdeprogramming.com

> Just my 2 cents.

> > Ken Ragge

>

[Guest guest]

Pete wrote " However, I still think that 'smother

mothering' may well produce peer group and sexual difficulties for sons. "

It can do that for daughters, too; believe me, I know.

Anne

thomasal@...

1234 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W., #927

Washington, D.C. 20005-4556

202 737-0840

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I don't know how many people on this group are parents, but I am, and I will say

that cognizant as I may have been about the mistakes my parents made, my wish to

avoid those mistakes led me to make others that I regretted then, regret now,

and will regret till the end of time.

Isn't it true that most people are doing the best they can with the tools that

they have? I don't think that understanding or forgiveness are out of place

here. Before I became a parent, I blamed my parents bitterly, but now that I am

a parent, I cannot find it in my heart to blame them at all.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

>

>>

>

>> I can't help but take serious issue with any therapy that centers around

>

>> " changing one's thoughts to change one's feelings. " Certainly, if I

>

>> have to go to the employee picnic, I can " change my thoughts, " reframe

>

>> it in another context and that might help make it more fun, a more

>

>> enjoyable experience. In this sort of thing one is subject to see a

>

>> great deal of short term benefit. It is the broadening of such

>

>> techniques to more important " issues " that concerns me. What about the

>

>> death of a child? What about a divorce? What about childhood abuse?

>

>>

>

>Ken, that's exactly the types of situations that they advocate using it for.

One example cited was that of a man sentenced to a concentration camp. When the

remaining prisoners were released, they were emaciated & depressed, but this man

had a " glow " about him, simply because he made the decision early on not to hate

because he would sink to the level of his captors. The other cited example (in

an e-mail sent me by the POM/HR folks) was that of a woman brutally raped,

mutilated & left for dead. She made a spiritual turnaround, forgiving her

assailants. I get an icky feeling in my gut when I read such examples, but the

reason I'm still reviewing this material is that I'm curious if this is some

survival mechanism the brain devises in the case of true horror. Mind you, my

personal horrors are horrific, but there are horrors worse than mine such as the

two cited examples.

>

>

>

>I'm giving the POM/HR book to a respected psychologist alkie friend of mine to

review.

>

>

>

>> I'm entirely with Lowen's strong emotion is stored in the

>

>> body. It certainly is possible to stay disconnected but at a very heavy

>

>> price.

>

>

>

>Yes, but how do you connect, when the buried emotion is attached to an event so

horrific?

>

>>

>

>> As far as " traditional " therapy, the " digs up old events and goes

>

>> through the emotions in a therapeutic setting, " I see that, too, as

>

>> counterproductive. This is always done in the context of learning to

>

>> " deal with " your feelings, not learning to value and respect them.

>

>> Moreover, it is always done in the context of answering the question,

>

>> " What is wrong with you? " Personally, I've found that whatever was

>

>> " wrong with me " wasn't something wrong with me at all but a natural and

>

>> as adequate as humanly possible response to an " unnatural " situation.

>

>

>

>This is interesting to me. So then what IS therapy if it's not examining old

events & associating the proper reaction to them.

>

>>

>

>> Another problem with this kind of talk therapy is the insistence on

>

>> " forgiveness " and getting side-tracked into making excuses for and

>

>> " understanding " parental behavior to the detriment of actually

>

>> re-experiencing the situation at depth.

>

>>

>

>If I hear the word forgiveness one more time, I will pull my hair out by the

roots. I wouldn't be so anti-forgiveness, if it weren't for all the

people/books/programs pushing it so heavily. Can't they see that people need to

honor their anger first??? Forgiveness, we'll talk later...

>

>

>

>

>

>> Moreover, the therapist " digging " and " rummaging around " is totally

>

>> without respect for the client's ability to know what is important and

>

>> what is appropriately next. Certainly a therapist can figure that if

>

>> there is a radical change between 7 and 8 that " something happened. " A

>

>> therapist can also figure that if a client is unable to bond in a

>

>> relationship that " something happened " and have some idea what type of

>

>> things cause such problems. But a therapist can't know or decide what

>

>> is appropriately next for the client to tackle. I saw this first hand

>

>> in a little bit of a different setting.

>

>>

>

>> I was studying hypnotherapy a number of years ago. I think " analytical

>

>> hypnotherapy " would be a fairly accurate term. People were brought back

>

>> to traumatic childhood experiences in just a few minutes. Some of them

>

>> had rather revolutionary changes for the better. However, many of them,

>

>> suddenly faced with things they weren't prepared for not only didn't do

>

>> better, it was so terrifying they became afraid to look back again. It

>

>> seems many doors were permanently closed these people.

>

>>

>

>> Alice has a great book, " Thou Shalt Not be Aware: Society's

>

>> Betrayal of the Child. " Essentially, she describes how therapists, in

>

>> protecting their own defenses, side _against_ the client. There is no

>

>> real " investigation " other than enough for condemnation and calls for

>

>> forgiveness.

>

>

>

>Have recently read 3 Alice books. Actually I found Alice just

about the time I had finished your book. I've happily rerouted my introspection.

>

>

>

>Apple

>

>http://www.AAdeprogramming.com

>

>> Just my 2 cents.

>

>>

>

>> Ken Ragge

>

>>

>

><hr><center>

>Internet FileZone: Always FREE!

>Instantly store & access your valuable PC files on the net,

>from any Web browser.

>SIGN UP NOW - http://offers./click/235/0

></center>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kayleigh wrote " Isn't it true that most people are doing the best they can

with the tools that they have? I don't think that understanding or

forgiveness are out of place here. Before I became a parent, I blamed my

parents bitterly, but now that I am a parent, I cannot find it in my heart

to blame them at all. "

Well, yes, I can see your point, and since I'm not a parent and don't ever

intend to be, I guess I'll never gain your insight. However, I can say

that knowing how I and my gay brother (and perhaps even my straight

brother, although he'd never admit to it) suffered as a result of what we

went through with my mother, that I can't imagine ever trying to totally

control my children and being so harsh and critical of them that they would

be unable to develop healthy self-images. Certainly all parents make

mistakes, but if we can understand exactly how our parents hurt us, if we

had parents who hurt us, wouldn't we be able to find ways to avoid doing

what they did? BTW, I didn't blame my parents at all before I started

psychotherapy; I thought it was all my fault and that I was somehow flawed.

And please don't tell me that it *was* all my fault; you'll destroy my

new-found sense of worth! And I'm not mad at my mother, she had a horrible

childhood and her parents had miserable lives. But now I can see how Mom's

damage affected me and so I can do something about it.

Anne

thomasal@...

1234 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W., #927

Washington, D.C. 20005-4556

202 737-0840

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Pete Watts wrote:

>

>

>

> > I'm entirely with Lowen's strong emotion is stored in the

> > body. It certainly is possible to stay disconnected but at a very heavy

> > price.

>

> I doubt " the body " in general. Almost certainly these are encoded in the

> central nervous system (this includes the spine as well as the brain).

> However, the memory *feels* as if it is in the body in precisely the same way

> that novel sensations are also felt as being in the body part concerned and

not

> as lights going off in one's heaad. This doesnt really matter so much in

terms

> of experience and therapy, but if you want a scientific theory of such

things,

> then I think that this point should be recognised.

Pete,

Of course, but going through all that detail in discussing it would be

not only wordy but misleading. Who's " brain's pain center is stimulated

by signals from the nerves in their big toe " when they stub it? Of

course, " my toe hurts like hell. "

> > Another problem with this kind of talk therapy is the insistence on

> > " forgiveness " and getting side-tracked into making excuses for and

> > " understanding " parental behavior to the detriment of actually

> > re-experiencing the situation at depth.

>

> Not all therapists insist on forgiveness as a goal. Sone specifically say

they

> do not see it as necessary.

Certainly not all, but an exceeding large number if you include the

one's who believe " not angry anymore " or " not disappointed anymore " as

evidence of wellness and those like the therapist you describe below who

seems to _start_ with " forgiveness. " " You must forgive for the therapy

to progress. "

>

> >

> > I was studying hypnotherapy a number of years ago. I think " analytical

> > hypnotherapy " would be a fairly accurate term. People were brought back

> > to traumatic childhood experiences in just a few minutes. Some of them

> > had rather revolutionary changes for the better. However, many of them,

> > suddenly faced with things they weren't prepared for not only didn't do

> > better, it was so terrifying they became afraid to look back again. It

> > seems many doors were permanently closed these people.

>

> I had an experience like this in a drama therapy session. I went back to a

> scene that I didnt even think of as traumatic particularly and was amazed at

> the emotions that emerged. The therapist inevitably interepreted it his way

and

> tried to direct it the way he thought it should go.

And I'll bet he screwed up royally. If I ever re-experience anything

traumatic again I'd _much_ rather be alone (which I always have) than

with a therapist. As a matter of fact, just the presence of a therapist

would cause me to put off having the experience. If anyone was to be

there, I'd want it to be a trusted friend who is advised not to tell me

_anything_ except _perhaps_ reassure me that I'm okay, preferably

non-verbally. I do find it difficult to imagine that anyone else's

presence could be more than a distraction, although some things are very

frightening and at times it seemed it would be nice to not face them

alone.

> >

> > Alice has a great book, " Thou Shalt Not be Aware: Society's

> > Betrayal of the Child. " Essentially, she describes how therapists, in

> > protecting their own defenses, side _against_ the client. There is no

> > real " investigation " other than enough for condemnation and calls for

> > forgiveness.

>

> I have experienced this too. After telling one therp abt the abuse my mother

> inflicted on me she started talking abt the " good enough " mother! For a

start,

> if I listened close enough in Psychoanalysis this term is from Winnicott when

> desscribing an *excellent* mother - the point is that no mother is perfect

but

> can be good enough, but he was talking abt mothers *who love their children

> well*, not abusive mothers. Secondly, he was talking abt mothers and *babies*

> not 5 year olds, as I was when the abuse started. This was a complete abuse

of

> a psychoanalytic term. but why was she using it anyway? she had a small baby

> herself, I think a boy but I'm not sure. Repeatedly I've had women,

especially

> mothers, flat refuse to believe the abuse my mother inflicted on me. I once

> asked an analyst why that was. He replied becasue they cant handle the

thought

> that they have that power in them to hurt a child, especially their own. If

> mothers, they are likely to have their own anxieties abt whether they have or

> are continuing to hurt them.

There is also the abuse (even if not culturally defined as such) that

most everyone suffers which I believe partly responsible.

> What was she saying with her comment? That my mother's behavior was " good

> enough " , and that by implication , it was inappropriate to complain?

>

> I told her that my mother's behavior was NOT good enough. I also knew what

the

> Cognitive Therapy response ought to have been, which was that my mother wasnt

> BAD enough, in the sense that she could not destroy me now unless I let her.

> *I* am the one who is good enough, good enough to prevail over my

difficulties

> and prosper. She nodded and smiled knowingly, but I dont think she got it. I

> think she still just couldnt understand why I should feel such hatred for my

> own mother, such rage at the abuse; somehow I had to have 'got it wrong'.

I got the same thing from a therapist once, the last one I ever went

to. I told him I wasn't there to fix what was right but probe into what

was wrong. What was right (and there were many things) was no problem

and didn't concern me. I think before the session was over he was

delighted I had decided I wouldn't come back. <G>

Ken Ragge

> ----------

> Pete Watts

>

> My childhood sent me Lemons:

> So I made Limerance

>

> PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT LIST:

> http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

>

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[Guest guest]

Kayleigh S wrote:

>

> I don't know how many people on this group are parents, but I am, and I will

say that cognizant as I may have been about the mistakes my parents made, my

wish to avoid those mistakes led me to make others that I regretted then, regret

now, and will regret till the end of time.

Kayleigh,

I think the appropriate question here, purely rhetorical is, would you

rather that your children realize you did things wrong rather than

living their lives believing that _they_ were somehow wrong? That is

what small children do. That is closer to the point here. It isn't

really about the parents.

As far as " forgiveness " I find that that is something that comes in its

own time, not something to be crammed down someone's throat by a

therapist (or religious group), most particularly _before_ someone even

knows what really happened to them.

In none of this is the suggestion, " Throw a brick through Mom and Dad's

window. " It is work within oneself that need never be even mentioned

_unless_ one chooses to.

> Isn't it true that most people are doing the best they can with the tools

that they have?

That is not the issue. It is about feeling buried feelings,

reappraising the very foundations one has built their life on. If

someone goes into a series of foster homes and in adulthood is never

able to bond with another human being, re-experiencing the anger at

abandonment is the _same thing_ whether the parents were druggies who

" dumped the brat " at six months or were the most loving parents who were

killed in a car accident. The anger is the same, the process of

" learning to discriminate between then and now " is the same. _It isn't

about the parents_. It is about finding what one is carrying within

oneself.

> I don't think that understanding or forgiveness are out of place here.

No, but the thing is people are told things that, if followed,

effectively, block them from coming to terms with a lot of things.

Also, there are those who I certainly wouldn't ever suggest they forgive

under _any_ circumstances. If they do, fine, but I'd never suggest it.

What about the boy who's father set him on fire and he is terribly

disfigured for the rest of his life? What about this woman I know who

was continually gang raped by her father and brothers growing up. Why

in the world should either of them forgive?

Forgiveness is a wonderful thing when it comes from within. It is

nothing but further cruelty when it is imposed on someone.

> Before I became a parent, I blamed my parents bitterly, but now that I am a

parent, I cannot find it in my heart to blame them at all.

We are talking about two different things. The " being angry " is related

to specific incident from sometimes decades before that not only isn't

generally " shared " with one's parents but is likely to change to other

feelings before one sees or communicates with them again, sometimes even

if that is later the same day. It simply is not about a " generalized

bitter blaming " but it certainly can help alleviate it.

Ken Ragge

> ---

> Kayleigh

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I understand what you are saying, since my mother was also very controlling and

harsh. And in trying to avoid being like her, I fell into some pitfalls myself.

I have no intention of saying it was your fault. Grownups are in charge,

children are not. I just think that words like " fault " and " blame " prevent us

from seeing clearly.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Kayleigh wrote " Isn't it true that most people are doing the best they can

>with the tools that they have? I don't think that understanding or

>forgiveness are out of place here. Before I became a parent, I blamed my

>parents bitterly, but now that I am a parent, I cannot find it in my heart

>to blame them at all. "

>

>Well, yes, I can see your point, and since I'm not a parent and don't ever

>intend to be, I guess I'll never gain your insight. However, I can say

>that knowing how I and my gay brother (and perhaps even my straight

>brother, although he'd never admit to it) suffered as a result of what we

>went through with my mother, that I can't imagine ever trying to totally

>control my children and being so harsh and critical of them that they would

>be unable to develop healthy self-images. Certainly all parents make

>mistakes, but if we can understand exactly how our parents hurt us, if we

>had parents who hurt us, wouldn't we be able to find ways to avoid doing

>what they did? BTW, I didn't blame my parents at all before I started

>psychotherapy; I thought it was all my fault and that I was somehow flawed.

> And please don't tell me that it *was* all my fault; you'll destroy my

>new-found sense of worth! And I'm not mad at my mother, she had a horrible

>childhood and her parents had miserable lives. But now I can see how Mom's

>damage affected me and so I can do something about it.

>

>Anne

>

>thomasal@...

>1234 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W., #927

>Washington, D.C. 20005-4556

>202 737-0840

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Ken, that was a very thoughtful reply and it illuminated some issues for me.

Of course I would not have my children believe that they were wrong rather than

that I was. This is something my son and I have talked about at length, and he

says he doesn't believe that the mistakes I made were somehow his fault. I

don't really believe that even as a small child I thought I was at fault either,

but that didn't help.

No one crammed forgiveness down my throat, thank goodness. I stopped talking to

my mother for a year, and that was in part thanks to a therapist. My mother

told me that I needed a therapist for years, at least since age 13, and when I

finally went at age 25, the therapist told me that I was not the one who needed

therapy, that my mother did. So I stopped talking to her.

It was a very long time before we had a good relationship, but we do today, and

partly because she learned that she couldn't treat me badly and expect me to

talk to her. But these things are complicated, and other things happened too.

My father became terminally ill, she went through several health crises, my son

was born. It's not easy to say what changed things for the better, there are

multiple causes interacting and perhaps it could have turned out badly instead

of well. But as I watched my mother coping with her illnesses, my father's

illness, her joy in her grandson, it was very difficult to remain angry no

matter what she had done. And her attitude toward me also changed.

I do agree that there are things that should not be forgiven. Those are not the

things that happened to me, and I don't think that others on this list are

talking about those kinds of things either, though I can't be sure.

I am sorry, Ken, I don't understand your last paragraph. But thanks very much

for the insights.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Kayleigh S wrote:

>>

>> I don't know how many people on this group are parents, but I am, and I will

say that cognizant as I may have been about the mistakes my parents made, my

wish to avoid those mistakes led me to make others that I regretted then, regret

now, and will regret till the end of time.

>

>Kayleigh,

>

>I think the appropriate question here, purely rhetorical is, would you

>rather that your children realize you did things wrong rather than

>living their lives believing that _they_ were somehow wrong? That is

>what small children do. That is closer to the point here. It isn't

>really about the parents.

>

>As far as " forgiveness " I find that that is something that comes in its

>own time, not something to be crammed down someone's throat by a

>therapist (or religious group), most particularly _before_ someone even

>knows what really happened to them.

>

>In none of this is the suggestion, " Throw a brick through Mom and Dad's

>window. " It is work within oneself that need never be even mentioned

>_unless_ one chooses to.

>

>> Isn't it true that most people are doing the best they can with the tools

that they have?

>

>That is not the issue. It is about feeling buried feelings,

>reappraising the very foundations one has built their life on. If

>someone goes into a series of foster homes and in adulthood is never

>able to bond with another human being, re-experiencing the anger at

>abandonment is the _same thing_ whether the parents were druggies who

> " dumped the brat " at six months or were the most loving parents who were

>killed in a car accident. The anger is the same, the process of

> " learning to discriminate between then and now " is the same. _It isn't

>about the parents_. It is about finding what one is carrying within

>oneself.

>

>> I don't think that understanding or forgiveness are out of place here.

>

>No, but the thing is people are told things that, if followed,

>effectively, block them from coming to terms with a lot of things.

>

>Also, there are those who I certainly wouldn't ever suggest they forgive

>under _any_ circumstances. If they do, fine, but I'd never suggest it.

>What about the boy who's father set him on fire and he is terribly

>disfigured for the rest of his life? What about this woman I know who

>was continually gang raped by her father and brothers growing up. Why

>in the world should either of them forgive?

>

>Forgiveness is a wonderful thing when it comes from within. It is

>nothing but further cruelty when it is imposed on someone.

>

>> Before I became a parent, I blamed my parents bitterly, but now that I am a

parent, I cannot find it in my heart to blame them at all.

>

>We are talking about two different things. The " being angry " is related

>to specific incident from sometimes decades before that not only isn't

>generally " shared " with one's parents but is likely to change to other

>feelings before one sees or communicates with them again, sometimes even

>if that is later the same day. It simply is not about a " generalized

>bitter blaming " but it certainly can help alleviate it.

>

>Ken Ragge

>

>> ---

>> Kayleigh

>>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

[Guest guest]

> I only recall studies done with surrogate mothers and real mothers -- my

recollection is that the monkeys raised with their own mothers did learn

reproductive behavior. But it's been a long time ago, and perhaps I've

forgotten.

Hi Kayleigh

I think these were done with infants who were also allowed peer access too.

To clear up something from the Vachss thread,

I would say that criminals of various kinds can in fact be taught to

develop internal controls that can prevent them offending, as Vachss

himself acknowledges. In my book that is 'rehabilitation' to the point

that society has a right to expect of citizens, which Vachss

specifically does not acknowledge.

The thought is not equal to the deed.

Pete

----------------------

Grant me the Strength

To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

> I don't know how many people on this group are parents, but I am, and I will

say that cognizant as I may have been about the mistakes my parents made, my

wish to avoid those mistakes led me to make others that I regretted then, regret

now, and will regret till the end of time.

>

> Isn't it true that most people are doing the best they can with the tools that

they have? I don't think that understanding or forgiveness are out of place

here. Before I became a parent, I blamed my parents bitterly, but now that I am

a parent, I cannot find it in my heart to blame them at all.

> ---

> Kayleigh

Hi Kayleigh

I agree with this in principle, but ppl also have a right to their rage if

they have been seriously hurt. Fred and Rosemary West, who tortured and

killed an unknown (at least double figures) number of young girls,

including two of their own children, were 'doing the best they could' too;

should their surviving children think of them this way?

I think everyone has to decide this for themself. If ppl can find genuine

forgiveness, then that is good; if they do not wish to forgive then that is

their right.

I have recently felt that I did forgive my family, but I have just now

remembered that thay have never asked for any forgiveness - and rarely

acknowledged any guilt. Attempts at reconciliation have eventually resulted

in further denial and rejection.

I better stop typing this. I want to punch out the puter screen and I still

have a few weeks left at this college.

P.

Pete

----------------------

Grant me the Strength

To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hello anne

Dont think i have seen you post before; nice to hear from you.

> Pete wrote " However, I still think that 'smother

> mothering' may well produce peer group and sexual difficulties for sons. "

>

> It can do that for daughters, too; believe me, I know.

Well, I guess the monkey experiments found the same with females too. When

my last gf and I got together we watched a wildlife program on baboons.

Apparently they practice a kind of serial monogamy, with the male moving on

after a while looking for a younger model (bit like humans!). however,

there are the good times of happy families too.

We used to cale it each other the " male baboon " and the " female baboon " as

a joke. We even wrote it on our valentine cards to each other.

Gordina was smother parented by both of them; her father in particular was

harsh and emotionally abusive. She was still a virgin at 26 when I met her.

The male baboon, however, had sussed the procedure....

Pete

----------------------

Grant me the Strength

To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Kayleigh S wrote:

>

> Ken, that was a very thoughtful reply and it illuminated some issues for me.

>

> Of course I would not have my children believe that they were wrong rather

than that I was. This is something my son and I have talked about at length,

and he says he doesn't believe that the mistakes I made were somehow his fault.

I don't really believe that even as a small child I thought I was at fault

either, but that didn't help.

>

> No one crammed forgiveness down my throat, thank goodness. I stopped talking

to my mother for a year, and that was in part thanks to a therapist. My mother

told me that I needed a therapist for years, at least since age 13, and when I

finally went at age 25, the therapist told me that I was not the one who needed

therapy, that my mother did. So I stopped talking to her.

>

> It was a very long time before we had a good relationship, but we do today,

and partly because she learned that she couldn't treat me badly and expect me to

talk to her. But these things are complicated, and other things happened too.

My father became terminally ill, she went through several health crises, my son

was born. It's not easy to say what changed things for the better, there are

multiple causes interacting and perhaps it could have turned out badly instead

of well. But as I watched my mother coping with her illnesses, my father's

illness, her joy in her grandson, it was very difficult to remain angry no

matter what she had done. And her attitude toward me also changed.

>

> I do agree that there are things that should not be forgiven. Those are not

the things that happened to me, and I don't think that others on this list are

talking about those kinds of things either, though I can't be sure.

>

> I am sorry, Ken, I don't understand your last paragraph. But thanks very

much for the insights.

> ---

> Kayleigh

Kayleigh wrote:

> >> Before I became a parent, I blamed my parents bitterly, but now that I am

a parent, I cannot find it in my heart to blame them at all.

Ken's last paragraph:

> >We are talking about two different things. The " being angry " is related

> >to specific incident from sometimes decades before that not only isn't

> >generally " shared " with one's parents but is likely to change to other

> >feelings before one sees or communicates with them again, sometimes even

> >if that is later the same day. It simply is not about a " generalized

> >bitter blaming " but it certainly can help alleviate it.

Kayleigh,

I want to first thank you for your response because this is a subject I

need to think about and learn to talk about, to find my voice. Your

feedback has been most helpful.

My last paragraph, this morning, is about as clear to _me_ as mud. <G> I

write like that quite often when I dare post late at night after a long

day at work.

What you are talking about, your experience, is anger (bitterness) that

you were at least to some degree, and probably varying degrees,

" connected with. " If you were asked, " Why are you mad at your parents "

I would imagine you could list the reasons. Perhaps some of the reasons

you were angry were rather vague or fuzzy or would need some thought to

verbalize, but it was all more or less there for you. (I hope I have

this right, I don't mean to be putting words in your mouth.)

What I am talking about is at a very common extreme, but an extreme

nonetheless. It is where the anger is either unfelt, or, due to being

unable to be angry at the cause, is projected elsewhere. The

" connection " with the original source is lost. I don't know how else to

say it.

This sort of anger doesn't resolve, isn't so subject to change and

dissipation from new life experience. It is subject to be acted out

again, over and over, on oneself and/or others but not on the source.

Your anger at your mother, when she changed her behavior and no longer

hurt you, dissipated. That is the way " it is supposed to be. "

If you had been beaten or otherwise severely punished as a child for

being angry with your mother, things may well have been different. A

child learns to simply " not be angry. " Then later generalized feelings

of anger would have _not_ been able to be so " automatically " resolved by

changes in and realization of those changes, in the external world.

The above is almost a " side issue, " however, in what I was trying to say

in the last paragraph. The central issue is grieving loss. It is the

only way I know to describe it. It is similar to when someone you love

dies. It is not unusual to be _angry_, sometimes at them, for going

away. " Why did you have to go? " There is nothing wrong with that. It is

simply part of the grieving process.

In the same way, when " connections " are made to childhood trauma, a

great deal of anger is at least generally part of the process. There is

a great loss or maybe great losses that simply need to be grieved. It

is not only the loss of opportunity " If things had been different " but

most importantly, the loss of illusions on which one has built their

life.

In this it is rather irrelevant who is " to blame " and the anger,

regardless of who it is felt toward (except oneself as a small child) is

simply part of the grieving process, part of healing oneself.

Jeez, I hope this makes sense. <G>

Ken Ragge

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

---

>

> Kayleigh S wrote:

>

>> I don't know how many people on this group are parents, but I am, and

I will say that cognizant as I may have been about the mistakes my

parents made, my wish to avoid those mistakes led me to make others that

I regretted then, regret now, and will regret till the end of time.

>>

>> Isn't it true that most people are doing the best they can with the

tools that they have? I don't think that understanding or forgiveness

are out of place here. Before I became a parent, I blamed my parents

bitterly, but now that I am a parent, I cannot find it in my heart to

blame them at all.

>> ---

>> Kayleigh

>

>Hi Kayleigh

>

>I agree with this in principle, but ppl also have a right to their rage

if

>they have been seriously hurt. Fred and Rosemary West, who tortured

and

>killed an unknown (at least double figures) number of young girls,

>including two of their own children, were 'doing the best they could'

too;

>should their surviving children think of them this way?

>

>I think everyone has to decide this for themself. If ppl can find

genuine

>forgiveness, then that is good; if they do not wish to forgive then

that is

>their right.

>

>I have recently felt that I did forgive my family, but I have just now

>remembered that thay have never asked for any forgiveness - and rarely

>acknowledged any guilt. Attempts at reconciliation have eventually

resulted

>in further denial and rejection.

>

>I better stop typing this. I want to punch out the puter screen and I

still

>have a few weeks left at this college.

>P.

-----------------------------------------

I don't think " forgiveness " is the concept to be focusing on.

" Understanding " is more like it. I've long suspected that my own mother

has some sort of personality disorder (possibly borderline, definitely

some histrionic qualities) and to me it isn't about " forgiving " the

self-involvement and rejection/unavailability; just that it's better for

my peace of mind to understand that she really did care for my brothers

and me the best she could within her own limitations. Rage involves a

mindset of " Admit you were wrong and that you should have done it

differently! " and while I have in the past had such feelings, I've come

to realize that She can't understand what was wrong and really wasn't

able to do things much differently. Not the same as forgiveness or

pretending everything was hunky-dory at all, but not torturing myself

over an unchangeable past either.

I do try to be emotionally available for my own child and not

repeat my mother's behavior, but Kayleigh's right -- if you obsess about

not making your parents' mistakes you make many more of your own.

BTW Pete, I actually do think that in order to have any mental

health, the children of actual psychopaths need to see their parents'

behavior as " the best they could do " in the context of being

psychopaths, who need to be imprisoned as it is unsafe for others if

they live free in society. Preferable, I think, to destroying

themselves with eternal rage that their parents didn't act differently.

One can only hope that children are removed from truly horrific homes

and placed with loving families early enough to get the nuturing and

guidance necessary for normal development.

~Rita

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi, Pete,

I worked at Harlow's lab in the summers of 1960 and 1961. His studies were

discussed in the psych course I took in 61-62.

I'm not a psychologist, obviously, and while I know behaviorism was a big deal

when I took psychology (wasn't it kind of old even then, though?), I don't

remember what it is. So I find your comment about behaviorism difficult to

understand and would be grateful if you could explain it.

I'm going to reply to the Vachss comment in a different post.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

>On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 04:25:05 -0000 Kayleigh S

>wrote:

>

>> I used to work at Harlow's lab. Possibly the studies you refer to were done

>after I left.

>

>The ones I am thinking of were done over 30 years ago I think maybe even 40. I

>remember that mos of my classmates thought the conclusions obvious. what they

>didnt realize was the predominance of behaviorism at the time, i which context

>the experiments were based; and also of course that 'obviousness' is not

>scientific evidence

>

> " As to Vachss -- I think he acknowledges that criminals can be taught internal

>controls (I am as uncomfortable with the word " criminal " as I am with

> " alcoholic, " but please do not conclude from that that I don't believe there

>are lawbreakers who must be dealt with), however he apparently believes that

>there is a subclass that cannot be taught internal controls. Those are the

>ones he is concerned with. "

>

>That wasnt what he said. In the quote given, I dont think he even mentioned a

>subclass that couldnt be taught controls (tho I may have forgotten). In any

>case, (I think he was probably referring specifically to sex offenders) he said

>that those acquiring internal controls were still not *rehabilitated* and that

>is the point I am objecting to.

>

>----------

>Pete Watts

>

>Grant me the Strength

>To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

>

>PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT LIST:

>http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

>

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Pete,

Yes, as to Vachss, you are right. Here is the quote again:

" You have to distinguish abusers; there are essentially three types. There are

the inadequate —

people who simply don't know how to parent. A prototypical example is a

12-year-old with a baby of her own. An alcoholic is a perfectly good example.

They may be the best-meaning parent in the world, but people

who smoke in bed when they're drunk are a danger to every kid. Then they have

low frustration levels, and

things like that. Inadequates, I believe, are absolutely amenable to

rehabilitation, and very successfully so.

Then there are crazies — and I mean card-carrying, legitimate crazies — who

are parents, like schizophrenics and such.

People like that benefit to the extent psychiatry's got a response to their

particular disorder. So we're real good with obsessive-compulsives and real

lousy with schizophrenics when it comes to protecting

kids from them.

The third category is where me and the social workers part company. And that's

people who are evil — people who hurt children for their own pleasure or their

own profit. People who have sex with children. And to talk about rehabilitation

in the same breath with such people is ludicrous. There is absolutely no

evidence that any of them have ever been rehabilitated. The current cutting-edge

thought is that you can't

rehabilitate them but you can give them some sort of internal controls. "

Vachss does not seem to be agreeing that they can be given internal controls.

He seems to me to be saying that it's ridiculous to say that they can't be

rehabilitated but they can be given internal controls.

If the only thing you know about Vachss is this quote, I think it would be

worthwhile for you to look at some more of his stuff. I don't think it's

possible to evaluate someone by looking at three to five paragraphs out of his

total work.

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[Guest guest]

Hi rita

I think youre right here. however, i think it is something tha person has to

decide for themself - and if the perpetrators aent behind bars, theyre entitled

to want to have nothing to do with them.

I agree ideally the children of abusers are placed early with lovinf parents -

sadly, we know that this doesnt hapen very often. Cheild abuse is a trgedy very

hard to combat.

Wonderful depressing thought for the day...

Sonethin completely different, played badly at chess, in a torunament I couldnt

really afford to play in...

still, stops me wondering what would have happended if I had done!

A friend of mine probably won his section.

Now why should you be interested in my chess habits? because i want to post abt

something 'productive' for a change!

P.

On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:31:19 -0500 (EST) Railroad Rita

wrote:

> I don't think " forgiveness " is the concept to be focusing on.

> " Understanding " is more like it. I've long suspected that my own mother

> has some sort of personality disorder (possibly borderline, definitely

> some histrionic qualities) and to me it isn't about " forgiving " the

> self-involvement and rejection/unavailability; just that it's better for

> my peace of mind to understand that she really did care for my brothers

> and me the best she could within her own limitations. Rage involves a

> mindset of " Admit you were wrong and that you should have done it

> differently! " and while I have in the past had such feelings, I've come

> to realize that She can't understand what was wrong and really wasn't

> able to do things much differently. Not the same as forgiveness or

> pretending everything was hunky-dory at all, but not torturing myself

> over an unchangeable past either.

>

> I do try to be emotionally available for my own child and not

> repeat my mother's behavior, but Kayleigh's right -- if you obsess about

> not making your parents' mistakes you make many more of your own.

>

> BTW Pete, I actually do think that in order to have any mental

> health, the children of actual psychopaths need to see their parents'

> behavior as " the best they could do " in the context of being

> psychopaths, who need to be imprisoned as it is unsafe for others if

> they live free in society. Preferable, I think, to destroying

> themselves with eternal rage that their parents didn't act differently.

> One can only hope that children are removed from truly horrific homes

> and placed with loving families early enough to get the nuturing and

> guidance necessary for normal development.

>

> ~Rita

----------

Pete Watts

Grant me the Strength

To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

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[Guest guest]

Just curious -- why do you believe milk is a better reward than fuzziness?

(Actually it was terrycloth.)

Actually, Harlow (or his students) ran every change on the experiment that can

possibly be conceived of, so it's really difficult to know which one is meant

when people talk about it.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

>On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 05:15:13 -0000 Kayleigh S

>wrote:

>

>> Hi, Pete,

>>

>> I worked at Harlow's lab in the summers of 1960 and 1961. His studies were

>discussed in the psych course I took in 61-62.

>>

>> I'm not a psychologist, obviously, and while I know behaviorism was a big

>deal when I took psychology (wasn't it kind of old even then, though?), I don't

>remember what it is. So I find your comment about behaviorism difficult to

>understand and would be grateful if you could explain it.

>

>Ah, you have found me out, my memory for them is actually very poor. Iwas

>probbly guessing a bit. Regarding behaviorism, I was thinking of the " cloth

>mother " versus " wire mother " expment. a Lot of ppl on my course thought it was

>obvious that the monkeys woukld prefer the cloth one. They didnt get the

>behavorist idea that the wire mother provided milk, so by the simplest

>behaviorist hypothesis, bonding to the mother occurred thru the reward of milk,

>which this experiment disproved.

>

>Pete

>

>> > I'm going to

>reply to the Vachss comment in a different post. > --- > Kayleigh > > Zz >

>zZ > |\ z _,,,---,,_ > /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ > |,4- )

>)-,_..;\ ( `'-' > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) > > > > On Thu, 11 Mar 1999

>18:31:05 Pete Watts wrote: > > > >On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 04:25:05 -0000 Kayleigh S

> > >wrote: > > > >> I used to work at Harlow's lab.

>Possibly the studies you refer to were done > >after I left. > > > >The ones I

>am thinking of were done over 30 years ago I think maybe even 40. I > >remember

>that mos of my classmates thought the conclusions obvious. what they > >didnt

>realize was the predominance of behaviorism at the time, i which context > >the

>experiments were based; and also of course that 'obviousness' is not >

>>scientific evidence > > > > " As to Vachss -- I think he acknowledges that

>criminals can be taught internal > >controls (I am as uncomfortable with the

>word " criminal " as I am with > > " alcoholic, " but please do not conclude from

>that that I don't believe there > >are lawbreakers who must be dealt with),

>however he apparently believes that > >there is a subclass that cannot be

>taught internal controls. Those are the > >ones he is concerned with. " > > >

>>That wasnt what he said. In the quote given, I dont think he even mentioned a

>> >subclass that couldnt be taught controls (tho I may have forgotten). In any

>> >case, (I think he was probably referring specifically to sex offenders) he

>said > >that those acquiring internal controls were still not *rehabilitated*

>and that > >is the point I am objecting to. > > > >---------- > >Pete Watts > >

>> >Grant me the Strength > >To Change the Things I Can Not Accept > > >

>>PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT LIST: >

>>http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders > > > > > > >

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

>>Internet FileZone: Always FREE! > >Instantly store & access your valuable PC

>files on the net, > >from any Web browser. > >SIGN UP NOW -

>http://offers./click/235/0 > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hello Kayleigh

First I'd like to say sorry to you, and anyone else who thought I was brueque

abt the Vachss or Rand thrreads - I can be pretty opinioneated at times. Comes

with the borderline territory.

On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 02:40:14 -0000 Kayleigh S

wrote:

> Just curious -- why do you believe milk is a better reward than fuzziness?

(Actually it was terrycloth.) >

I didnt say I believed it (btw, I said 'cloth' not fuzziness). I said that it

would be consistent with the behaviorist notions at the time. The monkey has a

biological need for milk to survive. Hence, milk represents an obvious,

essential reward which would encourage a bond to the mother. Superficially,

there is no need for softness, at least not a mortal one, and hence might seem

to be a weaker reinforcer if indeed a reinforcer at all. Of course we now know

that babies starved of affection fail to thrive and i understand can develop

symptoms like malnutrition even if they are being fed. Even in the absence of

this argument, there is no prima facie reason why the colth mother should be

preferred to the wire one; but the reaction of the students was that it was

*obvios* the cloth one would be preferred. As ever, of course, in science it is

appropriate to test the obvious, since what may appear obvious can be false.

P.

> Actually, Harlow (or his students) ran every change on the experiment that

can possibly be conceived of, so it's really difficult to know which one is

meant when people talk about it. > ---

> Kayleigh

----------

Pete Watts

Grant me the Strength

To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

------------------------------------------------------------------------