Re: RN

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/18/01 7:56:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

jeffjarvis@... writes:

<<

Finally, I think you have clearly overstepped the boundaries of

polite discourse by accusing me of knowingly misdirecting the EMS

community and lying to support a policy. I think you owe me an

apology for your attempt to malign my reputation.

Sincerely,

Jeff Jarvis>>

And I, too, agree with Jeff that you were out of bounds in your comments and

feel that you owe him and all of those on this list server an apology.

, BS, LP

EMS Professions Program

Tyler Junior College

[Guest guest]

,

Well, well. I've always wondered what I had to do to get flamed like

this. I've disagreed with many people on this list over the past

several years and have never gotten this type of response. But then,

you might not have been around for those debates since this seems to

be the first time you've joined us. I suggest that you actually have

not been around to read this debate (or ANY of my previous posts,

BTW) because you joined this list on May 14, 2001

(http://groups.yahoo.com/group//members?

group=sub & start=501).

It is almost as though you joined the list solely to attack me. If

you have, in fact, been on this list before, I apologize in advance

for reading too much into appearances. If my initial suspicion is

correct and you did not in fact read my initial posts, by what

evidence did you reach the conclusions upon which you base your

attack?

Before I address the insults in your message, let me say that you

should not imply, due to the length of time it has taken me to reply,

that I am no longer involved with nor interested in the EMS

community. While it is true that I have left my position to attend

medical school, I maintain my membership on this list from my home

address. I will periodically check the list from the web site.

Now that that's out of the way, let us take a look at your post. You

accuse me of knowingly misdirecting the EMS public and lying about a

policy to gain support. Those are mighty strong words from someone

who doesn't seem to have taken the time to actually read what I've

been saying. I take my honor very seriously and take great offense at

your questioning of it.

I will now, in my usual verbose manner, defend myself from your

unwarranted attack.

Let me first say very clearly that you are wrong.

I do not believe I misled anyone, knowingly or unknowingly nor did I

misquote anything. I most certainly did not lie about anything. In

fact, I've asked everyone on this list if they were in any way, shape

or form misled by anything I've said (here is the link to the message

in which I did this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/texasems-

l/message/21974). Contrary to your statements, it doesn't appear that

I did.

If you are so incensed that I use the term 'challenge' in reference

to this proposed rule then you seem to be rather twitterpatted about

a term that has been in common use for many, many years. If you have

been involved with EMS for long, you will surely realize that this

concept is not in any way new. TDH has had such a rule for a very

long time. Pretty near everyone I know calls this a challenge

process. They do this with the full knowledge and understanding of

the process involved. If you disagree with the use of this term,

fine. That is, however, a far cry from the lying and misdirection

that you accuse me of.

As a bit of history, this old rule was rescinded in the very recent

past, at the recommendation of GETAC. It is now being revived in

response to the request of, as best I can tell, one person. I want to

be very clear that that person was completely within their rights to

make this request and I fully support his ability to do so. I just

disagree with the Bureau's decision to support that request by

reenacting the rescinded rule. I truly do not think I am alone in

this.

In the time that this has been an issue, I've conducted an informal

and unscientific poll to see if there are ANY paramedics who feel it

is appropriate for a nurse to become a paramedic by means that do not

include going to paramedic school. While my sample size was

admittedly small, I have yet to find a single paramedic who felt this

way. On the contrary, I've found a large number who preferred not to

discuss it fearing a repeat of the hypertensive episode they

experienced the last time they talked about it. While there certainly

may be some paramedics who do feel it is appropriate, I hardly feel

I'm alone in holding the opinions I've expressed.

In essence, you have called me a liar because I used a term you

consider to be politically incorrect. I suggest that this is an issue

you will just have to learn to live with. I stand by my use of this

term.

Let me say again, gaining EMS certification without completing an EMS

course is a CHALLENGE process. The process by which TDH reviews the

EXPERIENCE of a nurse and determines what they need to do to take the

exam IS NOT A BRIDGE COURSE. Please take the time to read my previous

post explaining my position on this. If you don't understand it or do

not agree with it, please do not assume that I am lying. Kindly ask

for a clarification of my position and I will try to give it. Here is

the link should you wish to review:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/21975.

Since you apparently did not bother to read my original message on

this process, please reference http://groups.yahoo.com/group/texasems-

l/message/21619 for a copy. Feel free to search the entire archives

while you are at it and kindly tell me where I either lied or

misdirected anyone. I may have used a term you dislike but that is

far from 'knowingly misdirecting the EMS community' or 'lying to gain

support'. I'd be very interested to see how you can justify such

outrageous and inflammatory accusations.

You suggest that I have no basis for my argument. , if you

really feel this way after actually reading what I've said then I

will be more than happy to engage in a professional debate with you

on this issue. I do not, however, wish to get into the name calling

contest that you have started.

Finally, I think you have clearly overstepped the boundaries of

polite discourse by accusing me of knowingly misdirecting the EMS

community and lying to support a policy. I think you owe me an

apology for your attempt to malign my reputation.

Sincerely,

Jeff Jarvis

I have to say that I am literally appauled with the general EMS

reaction to RN, PA equivalency issue. This whole issue was brought

up by Jeff Jarvis because GETAC was going to discuss the issue of

changing the rule according to TDH suggested changes. Jeff, not only

misquoted TDH policy, he knowingly misdirected the EMS public into

thinking this was a " challenge " process to gain paramedic

certification. I think this a sick ploy to set two groups of

professions that already have turf problems into a frenzy. If you

don't agree, have some basis to your argument, Jeff. Don't lie about

the policy to try to gain support.

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 18 May 2001 14:53:46 -0000 " Jeff Jarvis "

writes:

> ,

> Well, well. I've always wondered what I had to do to get flamed like

> this. I've disagreed with many people on this list over the past

> several years and have never gotten this type of response.

With ya there, Jeff. No wonder EMS has the problems it does....

" If we don't hang together, surely we will hang separately "

" Leadership is action, not position "

Larry RN LP CEN CFRN NREMTP... all earned!

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[Guest guest]

,

You mis-read my statement. I also have the deepest respect for paramedics,

I worked with them almost everyday. As far as college, a person should be

given credit in any field they are trying to crossover to. As I mentioned,

if a person wants to specilaize in a field, then that person takes the

required classes. Just like you are by attending nursing school, and that

is great. I will some day also take a paramedic class because I want to see

and learn more about working in the field. I too have worked out in the

field under some of the conditions you described. Don't think that just

because you work under those conditions that working in a hospital will be

easy, you will some find out once you complete nursing shcool. Anyway,

please do not misunderstand me, the more education a person gets the better

the patient care will be in the field or in the hospital.

Ram

Re: RN

> Well Ram,

>

> I have this to say to you. I have kept out of the muckety much that has

been

> flying back and forth all week on here, but there is just something that

rubs

> me the wrong way about your post. First, most of the Paramedics I know

have

> college degrees in one field or another. Some in Psychology, some in

> nursing, some in education, others in business and so on. To state that

you

> aren't a professional because you don't have a degree is just wrong. EMS

> itself doesn't require a degree in and of itself. Come the middle of next

> year, if you want your Licensed Paramedic, you will have to obtain a

degree.

> Associate level RN's require only 2 years worth of school. Most programs,

> from Basic to Paramedic in the past have taken almost 2 years to complete.

> Now, it is going to work out to be much longer. Most of us Paramedics

have

> gone through more medical training than most ADN's ever do. Our training

is

> strictly focused though, where yours is broad. You spend less time

covering

> more subjects in order to give you entry level knowledge in a broader

range

> of nursing fields. We spend more time covering less broad of a range of

> topics, and focus on one aspect of medical care. We are EMS

> providers...........we are expected to perform flawlessly under the most

> adverse conditions, with the lowest bid equipment, and less resources.

You

> as a nurse, have a clean, well lit, fairly controlled environment with

> multiple different resources at your beck and call, and more up to date

and

> better maintained equipment. We are held to a higher level than RN's are

on

> a daily basis. We make a " little " mistake, and we get our ass in a ream

of

> trouble. A nurse makes a " little " mistake, and they say, " oh, poor things

> are overworked and there is a nursing shortage. " There is a reason why we

as

> Paramedics are entrusted to perform procedures that RN's aren't (the only

> thing a Paramedic can't do in the state of TX is write prescriptions).

Our

> continuing education requirements are 10 fold what the BNE required for

> Nurses. Some of us go above and beyond our normal educational focus and

> expand our knowledge to incorporate that knowledge which is usually only

> pertinent in the hospital setting. As a Paramedic who has worked both in

the

> hospital setting and in the field, I can safely say that I would rather

have

> a Paramedic treating me than most nurses. I myself am going to nursing

> school, because I want to be able to go work in an ER or ICU part time,

and

> be paid near what I am worth. I respect nurses......they have their

place,

> and they fill their niche.............just like paramedics have their

place

> and they fill their niche. I do not object to Paramedics bridging for the

> RN........nor do I object to RN's bridging for Paramedic. There are also

> many Paramedics that shouldn't be in EMS, just as there are many RN's who

> shouldn't be doing patient care. I have the utmost respect for flight

> nurses, as they are the only ones who truly have an understanding of what

we

> do in the field. Most RN's couldn't hang in the field. The focus is

totally

> different.........the way we work is totally different. Paramedics are

just

> as much professional's as RN's are....and we deserve the same respect and

> credibility as an RN. To say otherwise just explains the reason why this

> fight continues. We are looked down upon by the majority of the nurses,

and

> why that is, I don't know. I am offended personally by your statement,

and I

> am sure many others are as well. If there weren't Paramedics, a lot of

> people would never make it to see a nurse much less a doctor. Please,

take

> in to account that we are as Professional as they get. We do a job most

> aren't willing to do. We do this for less money than you do as an RN, and

> much less respect. It is time that people realize that we are just as

worthy

> of that respect as any RN is. I've ranted long enough, but I hope you get

> the point.

>

> Take care,

> Blum, EMT-Paramedic and proud of it

>

> P.S. Don't think I am taking an anti nurse attitude.....I am not. I am

> merely stating that we deserve the same respect and recognition that any

self

> respecting nurse does. Some of my dearest friends and colleagues are

RN's.

> Take this as you will.

>

>

>

>